A Lot of Saws and SMCs Own George Wilson

[Robert Rozaieski]

George, you guys sure had your hands full here. I've made a couple of saws for myself and I sharpen all my own saws but I couldn't imagine having to file all these teeth :D.
http://www.history.org/Foundation/journal/Holiday06/images/tools77.jpg

[george wilson]

Robert,WHERE did you ever get that photo? That was taken by the Audio Visual Dept. in Williamsburg.

I am glad you put it up,as I haven't gotten ready to post pictures yet. I am on the left,Jon Laubach ,my long time Journeyman is on the right.

There were a whole table of crosscut and rip saws.but I didn't get photos of them.The front row is a sample of each type and size of saw on the table. This was the very first photo we took of common tools we made. Other batches of saws did not get photographed. The new vise has no wooden jaws yet.

I wonder how many Toolmakers out there got bloody hands from squeezing a saw set?




Things made "yesterday",are still out there serving.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Found it on the CW web site while I was browsing around.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Now that shop looks more interesting to visit than the Hay shop!

T.Z.

[george wilson]

That photo is from about 1992,and is the FIRST photo I ever had taken of the common types of tools we made. The other photos I had taken were only of the especially nice things like presidential gifts ordered from the White House,retirement gifts for executives,foreign dignitaries,etc. Although their shops were populated with our tools,the wagging tongues around Williamsburg began to say that our shop only made gifts,since I only put out those photos when we had a special occassion and did a display. When I post photos of those gifts in the future,you will see why I made pictures of them.

We began making pictures of the ordinary tools when I heard those rumors. Getting pictures was very expensive. The crew would come in,set up lights,etc. I'd refrained to save Williamsburg money.

There were other batches of saws as I mentioned,but this was the first photo. There is a Kenyon type crosscut saw on the workbench,one of 80 each crosscut and rip saws we did earlier. At the very front of the picture,with the large round steel "carriage bolt" type saw screws are 2 White repro saws. They were popular in 18th.C. Va.,but only 1 survives of them. They are about 1765. Note the peculiar way the steel backs rise up above the handles. In between the 2 White saws,with brass saw screws of the more usual split nut type,is a Cartwright repro. It is from the mid 1770's IIRC. In the lower right side of the bench is a Kenyon tenon saw. It has a brass back 3/8" thick! Really self propels the saw into a cut.

The majority of the saws are Kenyon repros from the Seaton Chest of unused 18th.C. tools.

Things done "yesterday" are still out there serving.

[Rob Luter]

Looks like a nice batch of goodies. I think I need a few more saws.

[mike holden]

Tony,
If you want to visit the shop, we were taken through it as part of the "working wood in the 18th century" conference. This is held yearly in January.
Mike

[george wilson]

My new person will be there by himself,unless they ask me to return for the event.

[Jim Becker]

Wow..."saw city". That "small" bench is pretty kewel, too... :)

[george wilson]

Jim,that old bench must be 16' long. It was made in the 20's or 30's by a gentleman who left all his tools to Colonial Williamsburg. He was quite a craftsman. When new,the bench must have been beautiful.It is 4"maple,and has very nice legs held with tapered wedges. There is a shelf below,and along the edge of it is a board with a groove in it. A vertical board with holes in it for holdfasts can slide along it for planing edges of boards.

The collection of tools included many Stanley planes,some very valuable,like a 444 Stanley,a Stanley Schute Board, a center wheel plough plane,and many many others. We were never allowed to use the tools,because they were old. They just sit there in the collections dept..

He had even made inlaid boxes which his whetstones were permanently mounted in.

[Bill Houghton]

is a proper 18th century reproduction?

BEAUTIFUL saws.

[Robert Rozaieski]

is a proper 18th century reproduction?

I think it was just a joke George ;).

[george wilson]

Robert and Bill; I've heard remarks about the machines several times. Sometimes I can't tell if it's a joke or not due to recurrance. People often don't understand that we were not open to the public, and our mission was to produce tools for about 80 craftsmen ASAP. Plus,repairs,weld wagon tires,help the maintenance department keep the 1927 infratructure parts like valves,pumps,and a myriad of other things running. Those things cannot be done effectively without machines.

[Tony Zaffuto]

George,

If you would get an absolute honest count, I would bet the hand tool only purists would be a very small minority. Even on the "Old Tools" list most of us admit to burning electrons even though we're not permitted to discuss doing so on the list. As a hobbyist, I don't care how long a job takes. If my livelihood depended on it, or if my wife is harping at me to get something done NOW, then I'll use whatever means at my disposal to complete the task.

Had our ancestors had means to ease their job burden, I'm sure they would have taken that course. Had not our predecessors strived to do their routine jobs easier, we would not have had tools and ways of working evolve the way we did.

I for one truly appreciate the perspective you bring to this forum and I'm sure that is the sentiment of virtually every other person that posts here!

Tony Z.

[george wilson]

Tony,thank you for the kind words. Actually,in the late 18th.C.,the Royal Shipyard in
London did institute the beginnings of machinery. They had big,heavy timber frame thickness planers,saws and other machines set up. They saved a million pounds in labor in 1 year. As usual in England,workers rioted because they thought their work was being taken away. The machines were taken down.

In England,workers also would not permit the use of sawmill machinery,though they had been in use in Switzerland for hundreds of years.

The grinders of needles died of "pointer's rot",a lung disease caused by breathing tiny particles of steel and stone dust. They did not live past their 30's,but made higher pay because of the dangerous work. A scientist mounted a large lodestone magnet on a grinder to demonstrate how the work could be made safer. The workmen would have none of it. They wanted the extra money,future be damned.

Life was so hard in those days a lot of lower class workers did not care if they lived or died. They did protect the work that fed them,little as it was. That held up progress,needless to say.

Finally,the Industrial Revolution got rolling.Steam engines,in use to pump out coal mines since the 17 th.C.began to be improved. Engineers like Maudslay spent years making an accurate screw,and laid the basis for precision manufacture in England.Goods made by machinery were actually touted for their superiority.

For the working class,things actually got worse as workers slaved to keep up with the machines in textile mills and other factories. It wasn't until the 20th.C. that workers began to have any rights,through unions. My old father in law,now dead,told me that when he was young in North Carolina,the furniture factory workers were paid each day as they left the plant,and only enough to buy the next day's food. The theory of managenent was that if they were paid enough to save any money,they'd save enough money to be able to leave,and go look for a better job.

I think that unions by now have gotten way out of hand. I've never belonged to one,but they saved earlier workers from being no better than draft animals forever.

[John Keeton]

Aside from the immense amount of production you and your workers accomplished, and the extremely interesting contributions you have made George, I have noticed one other thing from that pic - You were a young man at one time:D

Just want you to know that most of this is way beyond my level of knowledge and expertise - but, I enjoy it nonetheless! Thanks, George!

[Jim Dunn]

George, you guys sure had your hands full here. I've made a couple of saws for myself and I sharpen all my own saws but I couldn't imagine having to file all these teeth :D.
http://www.history.org/Foundation/journal/Holiday06/images/tools77.jpg

I saw that many saws once. And all of em put together wouldn't make the quality of the handles on one of these. Just a beautiful set:D of saws.

[george wilson]

Jim,and John,I appreciate your comments. While the 18th.C. saws,especially the Kenyons,had beautifully designed handles, they were not highly finished in the period.Ours,being accurate repros,were to have their type of finish work. They rasped the handles out,scraped them smooth,and sold them that way. They were not sanded smooth like the later 19th.C. saws. When you find a real old one,such as some I have,the handles are worn smoother through use. But,look closely,and you will see the remnants of rasp marks,and scraper tracks. Ours followed suit.

Surprisingly little machine work went into our saws. The handles were bandsawn out,but mostly hand contoured after that. The radii going around these old handles changes for sculptural,artistic reasons,but it precludes running a router around the edges. Blades were chomped out on a shear,and teeth punched,but all filing and setting was by hand. We did not have special manufacturing equipment like a commercial tool company. Backs were bent,annealed,bent more,annealed more,and finally closed enough to grip the blades. The bevel where the back meets the blades,and the final smoothing up was done by freehand grinding.

I made patterns for the saw screws,and they were hand cast at the Geddy Foundry. Those old screws are very rough,except where you can see them. We hand slotted them,threaded them,filed up the square part by hand,installed them,and hand ground them flush like originals were.

We were glad to have Duncan Phyfe's toolchest in Williamsburg some years ago. There were magnificent saws in it. I am sure he must have made some of his handles.Some of his dovetail saws had boxwood handles,beautifully finished. They were as rakish as any clipper ship!! The backs were faceted on the top edge as well as beveled on the blade side. The 18th.C. saws we made had round topped backs. I Made some saws for myself that are more in the early 19th.C.mode. I need to make boxwood handles,though. Mine were curly maple,since I was not obligated to copy old saws for myself.

[Bill Houghton]

Robert and Bill; I've heard remarks about the machines several times. Sometimes I can't tell if it's a joke or not due to recurrance. People often don't understand that we were not open to the public, and our mission was to produce tools for about 80 craftsmen ASAP. Plus,repairs,weld wagon tires,help the maintenance department keep the 1927 infratructure parts like valves,pumps,and a myriad of other things running. Those things cannot be done effectively without machines.

I knew that; I was, indeed, teasing. I should have made that clearer, and I certainly intended no disrespect. I've done a little reading of shop practices from the first part of the 20th century, during a period when a lot of work was done with files and riveting that would now be done with milling machines and welding, and I am always amazed that anything got finished - though I remind myself that the eight-hour work day was off in the future at that point. Had Colonial Williamsburg staffed the "back room" function appropriately to the period using period tooling, you'd probably have been supervising a crew three to four times the size you had.

And, to wander a bit, some years back, I got a book from our local library (long since de-acquisitioned, I'm sure) from the early 20th century that asserted that "one man, with a sharp saw" could build his own house. Even though I now know much more about what "sharp saw" means than I did then, I remain amazed at the idea of building my own house with a Disston. At 60, I think I'm past building a house, but, if I did, you can bet my electron-killing circular saw would get a lot of use.

[george wilson]

Hi,Bill. Though I designed my shop,my one and only building design done for real,I HATE working on houses,just too creaky anymore. This 1949 house was made just like the houses in the historic area,but was in need of a lot of repair when we got it. It still had the ORIGINAL yellow pine siding on it. In this climate,that's a wonder. The man who built the house operated his own sawmill nearby. Whole thing is made of very hard yellow pine. The joists are 2 3/4"X9" in the basement. No plywood anywhere,real plaster,authentic colonial trim,slate roof.

Someone cut all the doors off about 1 1/2" short in the shag rug era. I got a Bosch electric plane,and had to plane off the terrible sawing job. It actually looked as if someone used a chain saw on the doors. Had to plane down,add on a strip of wood,and sand it flush to every door in the house.

The woman who we bought it from,had painted over the oil base trim with latex. It curdled all over. All the trim had to be sanded down,painted with a special undercoat whose name escapes me. It was like thinned out white glue-Peel Stop!! just came back.

The ceilings are 9'. Fortunately,the house was insulated. well,we aren't quite done.I doubt this house was built with just a saw!!.

[Berl Mendenhall]

George,
You mentioned Dunken Phyfe's tool chest, Is it in private hands or is it in a museum? I bet that was a thrill. Just to be able to go through it and study the actual tools used to make that wonderful furniture.

Berl Mendenhall

[george wilson]

Berl,google it. The chest is in the New York Historical Society.Yes,it was quite an opportunity

While we were having the major tool exhibit that this chest was in,we also borrowed a wooden treadle lathe from the Science Museum in London. I had previously copied this lathe via pictures,for our Gunsmith Shop. The original was missing its tailstock. I was asked to make a tailstock for it.

The lathe was effective,but crude,and covered with a very dark brown coating of old,solidified oil,or tallow,whale oil,or some other stuff which had built up so that it had become almost like 15 coats of varnish. I made the tailstock very crude,from a piece of 4" x4" oak,with a long chunk broken off one side. That fit right into the general condition of the rest of the lathe. Blacksmiths forged out a tailstock screw.I threaded it. When it was done,I stained the tailstock,and BUFFED it very much,sluffing off the corners,and the whole surface in general. I re stained it,until it looked just like the old lathe,stamping my name and the date in an unseen place. We didn't want the tailstock to be thought as the original down the road. It looked very good on the lathe. An example of the many times we had to shift gears mentally,and do very crude work.

At the very first,I had found it a bit difficult to work crude,then do very accurate work.After a little time,I thought nothing of it.

We made all of the furnishings in the Shoemaker's Shop when it got a new master. The shoemaker's benches were copied from 1 on our collection. They were crudely sawn out,and the edges chopped into broad bevels with a hatchet,like the old one. I also made an authentic chopped out last. This was sent off and copied into all sizes. The old Master had just used modern wooden lasts.

But,as usual,I get off subject.The curators declared that shop as overall the most authentic shop in town after we got everything done.

Another example of things done yesterday,still out there serving.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Berl,google it. The chest is in some museum I can't think of right not.

Duncan Phyfe's toolbox is normally in the New York Historical Society. (it might be loaned out now I am not sure) I routinely visit it and have since I was a kid. It is actually still owned by the Phyfe family and while it's always on display detailed access is limited.

It was a big inspiration for me personally and the primary source for our Gramercy Tools saws (both the turning saw and the dovetail saw). The best part of the case is that it shows the editing and use of a masters toolbox after about 50 years of use.

Incidentally the EAIA has inventoried the chest and IIRC most if not all the saws were professionally made. You do see a few rehandled saws - as big saws got smaller with use they changed function.

[george wilson]

Are the boxwood handled dovetail saws original handles? The chest is a memory from long ago for me by now.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Are the boxwood handled dovetail saws original handles? The chest is a memory from long ago for me by now.

George,
I have to dig up my pictures which are buried but IIRC the handles (with one exception) were all QS Beech, good and yellowed, the exception was a tiny backsaw, with a zerbrawood or some such exotic handle.

[george wilson]

The chest was in a glass case,and it's been a long time. Maybe I am confusing what I saw with what I wanted to do.I have wide boxwood and think it would be beautiful.

[Joel Moskowitz]

The chest was in a glass case,and it's been a long time. Maybe I am confusing what I saw with what I wanted to do.I have wide boxwood and think it would be beautiful.

I could be wrong also. But I think Boxwood is a waste for saw handles. it shifts the balance of the saw backwards and you get much less of a sense of vertical and blade position and the boxwood won't absorb sweat nearly as well as a beech.
The tools that did use boxwood for handles were typcially tools where dexterity rather than force were important.
I think there is a real sense these days that a fancy handle of some exotic wood makes a good tool prettier and therefore better. In some cases it's a wash but I think in most cases the typical handle woods perform better, even if plainer.

[george wilson]

Aw,but Joel,if all things were reduced to only those essentials we really need,indeed life would be dull. And,many of the members would have very little to talk about!!

It's not about better in this case,just prettier. I don't sweat on my dovetail saws-not enough effort needed to work up a sweat. I doubt that well oiled beechwood soaks up much sweat,anyway,do you think? I've got to get at those handles soon!!

[Brian Ward]

For what it's worth (probably not much), out of the woods I've used so far for handles, and the ones on my old handles, beech and apple are my favorites. The weight seems right compared to, say, one I made out of cherry, which seems a bit light. On the other hand, saws I've tried with "exotic" woods all seemed a little heavy on the heel.

Call me messed up, but I also actually like the figure of beech. You can do interesting things with the rays. I'd use apple more (it's a lot of fun to work, too), but my supply is limited.

Seems to me that walnut would be great too, but I've never tried it for a handle.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Aw,but Joel,if all things were reduced to only those essentials we really need,indeed life would be dull. And,many of the members would have very little to talk about!!

It's not about better in this case,just prettier. I don't sweat on my dovetail saws-not enough effort needed to work up a sweat. I doubt that well oiled beechwood soaks up much sweat,anyway,do you think? I've got to get at those handles soon!!

Yes but why make things harder. I don't like expensive decorations that make the tool harder to use. and in the summer if I work in the shop all day my hands are sweaty. and if the beech is oily it has way too much oil on it. Plane bodies you might continue to feed with oil over time to keep them stable but handles and chisels handles should not even be close to oily to the touch.

[george wilson]

Apple was used for the best saws of Disston,Simmonds,and other fine makers long ago. It's hard to find apple that hasn't got grey streaks in it,and not from spalting. Once I had some plum wood. It was beautiful,light lavender colored. That probably would have easily faded away. I let someone have it.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Applewood is beautiful stuff. not as nice I think as beech from a use standpoint but nicer to look at.

[george wilson]

Is it possible beech was used because it was cheap and plentiful? I read back in the early 70's,in a book by Salomon (IIRC) that beech was used because it was so stable. That was a complete myth I found out later. In 1986,when I became toolmaker,we cut 5000 bd.ft. of beechwood,because you can't get it commercially. They seem to use it for pallets.

That wood twisted and warped worse than any wood I've ever seen. I had to make a cooper's jointer from beech many years later. We selected a 6"X6",and took it from the unheated garage we stored it in,to acclimate in the shop. We planed it square months later,just enough to clean it up. It twisted. Months later,we squared it up again. Again,it slowly took a twist. This went on for over a year. Finally,we got it down to the size we had to have it. It stopped twisting,luckily.

I've never seen such unstable wood. In England they used beech only on the cheapest grade of furniture. I've seen it on old,cheap grade English furniture that came out of old hotels over there,and was sold at auction houses to pass for antiques.

Beech is also not very good for turning. It is always hairy on the surface.

[Joel Moskowitz]

beech is very unstable. Air dried beech is better but for tools QS beech is the only way to go. For saw handles and plane bodies it MUST be QS for chisel handles it doesn't matter although we use air dried stuff for for the mortise chisels. Occasioanlly we get weird grain and the handle fails pretty quickly. But otherwise it makes a wonderful handle with a nice feel to it.

[Brian Ward]

I wouldn't call beech stable by any stretch of the imagination, but it does seem to have its utility for a reason. Clark and Williams offer this article on why they (and presumably traditional makers) used it for planes: http://www.planemaker.com/articles_beech.html

Now, yeah, it is quite available in Europe. I'm just pulling this out of my butt, but the reason might be that it was the only tree that was so tough that the Romans didn't bother chopping it down. (At least, a lot of big American beech trees remain here because they were just too much of a pain to cut down.)

[Brian Ward]

Regarding why it's a pain to cut down a beech, think about big trees of both genera--a 4' diameter beech versus a 2' diameter maple. You'd have to go through 12.56 square feet of beech versus 3.14 square feet of maple.

If I were a Roman or even early American logger dude (and thus, didn't have a chainsaw), I think I'd probably skip the beech. If I were going after a fat tree, I'd go after some oak--after all, the wood is a lot easier to deal with and you can do a lot more with it.

[george wilson]

Joel,I've deleted the message. as I said,it was a suspicion only.

Brian,I never saw a beech that big around here. Maybe they are in England. Of course,a bigger tree is going to be harder to cut down. Around here,2' is about the limit. Then.they seem to have developed about an 8" diameter rotted center.

I have seen huge oaks,too. Wouldn't a 4' oak be trouble to cut down?

I don't see a lot of future in debating what properties beech has. I can only relate real experiences I actually had. My partner Jon cuts up trees all the time. Even bought empty tractor trailer bodys to store wood in. He cuts walnut,maple,cherry,several types of hardwoods. He wants to be in the wood business,having access to a sawmill a friend rents to him cheap. the beech is the worst we have seen as to movement,and warping. That is all I can tell you about it. I think they used it due to plentiful nature. I don't really have much more to say than that,having had my experiences. If you want to go and cut down large quantities of hardwoods,please report back on your findings. That's all I can do.

[Brian Ward]

Brian, I never saw a beech that big around here. Maybe they are in England. Of course,a bigger tree is going to be harder to cut down. Around here, 2' is about the limit. Then.they seem to have developed about an 8" diameter rotted center.

Remember the context: Roman and early American times, and this means old-growth forests. Old-growth beeches of both Fagus sylvatica and F. grandfolia can be quite big trees. Beeches can put up with a variety of crummy soil conditions, but when it's good, they get quite large. Attached is a picture of me in front of a fairly young example of ornamental F. sylvatica in Rhode Island. It's about 3.5', maybe.


I have seen huge oaks, too. Wouldn't a 4' oak be trouble to cut down?Sure thing. Important, though, is that the timber yield is far more valuable, which may make such a large oak harvest worthwhile. I mean, sure, I like beech a lot, but it is a pain to work with and it's so unstable. It's even a pain to split for firewood. Who wants to deal with that?

Anyways, we're kind of getting away from saws here.

[george wilson]

Yeah,but we AIN'T GOT NO ROMAN beech trees around here!! Nor early American trees. Even back in colonial times,the wood for quite some distance around here was soon cut away for fuel,and making charcoal.They even had no trees in Williamsburg,because they wanted the town to look like a city,and not a colonial outpost. Must have looked pretty sparce back then. Today,in spite of all the trouble to make the museum authentic,glaringly inauthentic trees grace the streets because we see them as attractive today.

[Brian Ward]

Hehe, yeah, I think we're talking about two different things here.

I'm not sure that I'd want any beech from around that area either, wasn't a lot of it kind of swampy at some point?

[george wilson]

Yes,I think they drained it early on. Not much swamp,now.

[Larry Williams]

Joel,I've deleted the message. as I said,it was a suspicion only....

George,

A customer forwarded your message to us. I've been trying to figure out how to reply without making this a bigger mess. Even though you've deleted the message, I'm not sure who all may have read it.

I can only guess what may have motivated you to post about your unfounded suspicion but you have called our integrity into question. That alone could make it very difficult for us to gain access to other important collections. I don't see that we have an choice other than to clear this up.

Common sense should tell everyone who read that post that your former employer doesn't just leave rare old tools laying around for people to have casual access to them. We feel very privileged to have been given access to the study collection they have. Readers should be aware that access to that study collection requires going through two layers of security. The times we were there we were both signed in and escorted by George's former supervisor. On entry we were issued white cotton gloves and were under constant supervision. We were never left alone.

Some items in the collection are on open shelves but many are boxed on the shelves. We didn't simply paw through those boxes but were shown items we asked about. I don't recall seeing a single early saw, I know we didn't ask to see any and we weren't shown any. We don't make saws and have no plans to do so. Why would we have been looking at saws?

We feel fortunate that we've been sent photos of items in the collection when we've requested them. We've also received measured drawings. There is absolutely no reason we would have attempted what George evidently "suspects."

Have we duplicated anything produced by George's shop? Yes, we were once sent a fore plane and asked to make one single plane based on that design for one of the resident craftsmen. That is the one time we even had access to anything George or Jon produced. I do still have the brief note requesting we do that but I'd rather not make that communication public unless George insists. I do hope he won't but if he does, I do intend to remove the names of others involved.

In the future George, if you have suspicions or questions about us or our company, please contact us directly. Please leave us out of your airing the laundry between you and your former employer.

[george wilson]

Larry,I did delete the post within a few minutes. What happened was someone traced all of the tools we had on display in our shop during a crowded forum. These were not old tools,but accurate reproductions we had made. That's all I am going to say. I am sorry to have made the posting in the first place.I think a total lack of communication to my shop,not your fault,about items you were permitted to reproduce caused my incorrect suspicions. A lapse of judgement on my part,quickly deleted. I apologize to you. This has nothing to do with my former employer. I never even mentioned it to him. No harm has been done to you.

[Larry Williams]

...What happened was someone traced all of the tools we had on display in our shop during a crowded forum. These were not old tools,but accurate reproductions we had made. That's all I am going to say. ...

George,

Let me add we weren't there for your "crowded forum." Bill and I were in your shop one time for maybe 30 to 45 minutes in 1997. The time we were there, the only people present were Bill, me, you, Jon and the person who was your supervisor. Again, we were never left alone. The only completed tool you showed us was an ebony and ivory spoke shave and we saw your first run of bench planes nearing completion. I don't see where you had a single basis for your "suspicion" or for publicly connecting us to what you think happened.