Preference or is there no comparing-Pocket hole or mortise & Tenon?

[Tim Brooks]

I was just at one of the big box stores looking at the Delta Tenoning Jig. I realize they both can serve differing purposes but what is your opinion as to the best purchase. Purchasing the tenoning jig along with the mortising kit for the drill press or simply purchasing the Kreg Pocket Hole Jig?

Like I said, I realize they both have adavantages and can serve different purposes for different applications but if you were going to purchase one, which one would it be?

[Prashun Patel]

M&T is the purists choice for strength and craftmanship. If you want to go this route, then I'd get a real mortising press; most of the drill press attachments don't get good reviews. Or you can just invest in some quality chisels and good forstner bits so you can chunk out the mortises on the dpress and then clean them by hand.

The PHole jig is a great investment for under $100. It's used for quick, quality joinery where craftsmanship isn't so important. It makes joints that can't rival M&T but are respectable for many apps.. Of course, one side is always 'ugly' so you can't really use it on things where both side of the jt are visible.

To add complexity to your decision, you can consider dowel jigs, loose tenon joinery (Festool's Domino or Beadlock), and biscuits. All of these are appropriate for one-side hidden and both-sides-visible joints.

In terms of strength, I read that M&T is the strongest, followed by dowels/loose tenons, followed by pscrews, followed by biscuits.

[Paul Demetropoulos]

I guess it depends on what you want to make, both joints have their use. I most certainly would not buy a mortising kit for the drill press, that method is inconvenient at best.
Making mortises with as router is the way to go.

For a new woodworker the pocket hole jig can get you out of the gate making things real fast, and it is a strong joint. If it were me I’d start with pocket hole joinery, it’s portable too don’t forget and cheaper.

[Jose Kilpatrick]

Pocket holes with the surfaces glued creates a nice strong joint. Not as strong as mortise and tennon by a longshot. I think a M&T stress failure happens at a phenomenal load.

Pocket holes are great for quick assembley.

As far as which to buy first, I'd reccomend getting the pocket hole jig. You don't neet a tennoning jig to cut tennons. If you have a crosscut sled you can nibble away most of the tennon on a ts and then finish it up with a dovetail saw or backsaw.

But then again, he who dies with the most toys wins!, Right?

[Joe Cowan]

The Kreg jig is the best money I have spent, dollar for dollar, in my shop. I love to use it when I think the joint will be strong enough, such as face frames on cabinet fronts. You will need to be able to do both methods if you do a wide range of projects. Doors, for instance, would not be suitable for the pocket hole joinery, in my opinion.

[Alex Shanku]

It's used for quick, quality joinery where craftsmanship isn't so important. It makes joints that can rival M&T.

Huh? Typo, i am guessing, right?

[Prashun Patel]

Huh? Typo, i am guessing, right?
Thanks. Edited my response. I didn't realize it read like that.

[Brent Leonard]

Start with pocket screws.

When your talents and skills increase, and you desire to start making the type of furniture that YOU want to be personally proud of, go with the M&T's.

My wife wouldn't be able to tell you the difference in a nightstand made with pocket screws or m&t's or the level of skill and time involved between the two..... but ME, the guy who made the piece, knows. That is where I incorporate and enjoy the intricate proccess and finished product of my pieces!

[Tim Thomas]

I have both, and I bought the mortise attachment before the Kreg Jig, but I would recommend you do it the other way around. The Kreg Jig (or some other pocket hole jig) will do a lot more than just serve as a replacement for mortise and tenon joints. Making drawer boxes for example. It is also great for making quick shop jigs, fixtures, work tables, router tables, cabinets, etc. I wish I had it when I was first setting up shop. I think I would have been up and running a lot sooner...

[Chip Lindley]

Strength issues aside, comparing M&T to PH screws is apples and oranges.

M&T, dowels, and even biscuits are hidden from view. PH screws are plainly seen, and not suitable for the same applications that the other 3 fill better! PH and biscuits are *quick and dirty*! Alignment is much more critical with M&T or dowels.

PH screws are great for face frames, or any other attachments good on only one side. My Porter Cable 552 machine does FFs quickly without all the juggling with clamps that most PH jigs require.

I have an *old* 1954 Craftsman DP with mortise attachment. When set up properly, it works well for up to 3/8" mortises. Not quite enough Butt for 1/2"! The last time I used it was to make a folding dressing screen of 4/4 oak, where the stile thickness was proud of the rails. A dedicated mortise machine would be much more desireable if much mortise work is seen in your future.

Please don't confuse the two methods questioned by the OP! The two are just not in the same league. M&T or dowels can be used on Entrance Doors! PH screws or biscuits are for lightweight applications.

[Neal Clayton]

even when (if?) you get to the point of doors, windows, and the like, there is more than one way to skin a cat. i don't cut tenons with that delta tenon jig you mentioned, but i use it almost every day.

i cut tenons with my rail cutter, less room for error that way. the tenon jig does work well for finger and bridle joints though, so that's what i use it for. plus that tenon jig works great when turned around backwards for holding an entirely assembled window on edge for a dado in the side to create the rope/chain groove.

so you might be looking for a tenon jig, i personally call it a window holder :p.

i agree with the other post above about a drill press mortise attachment being tedious at best, and completely insufficient at worst.

imo, keep an eye out on craigslist and ebay and when you find a great deal on a proper full size mortiser, then worry about tenons. tenons are the easy part, cutting an accurate square hole isn't, necessarily, depending on how you go about it.

[David Keller NC]

Tim - One thing that isn't often mentioned in discussions of pocket screws and M&T comparisons is that a pocket-screw joint's strength is a lot more sensitive to the species of wood in use.

Because of the way a pocket screw is oriented, the failure under load is almost always the removal of a "plug" of wood from the end grain under the pocket screw's head.

On a mortise and tenon joint, the breakage generally occurs across the tenon's long grain, or in some cases, depending on how far the mortise is from the end of the stile, by stripping out the end grain of the stile. Generally, though, stripping the end grain out of the stile is constrained by the geometry of the joint, except in the case of a door (for example, on a table apron, the end-grain of the mortised leg is supported by the table surface above it.

It's been my direct experience that pocket screws fail more often than I'd like in easily splittable woods, red oak being the poster child in this respect. On difficult to split woods, like hickory, pecan, poplar, etc..., pocket screws are reasonably strong.

[Leo Graywacz]

I couldn't live without either. But if I was starting out and had neither, I would go for the pocket hole jig. There is so much you can do with it. Jig building is one of my favorite things to use it on. Face frames is what I usually use it on. If the FF is in a cabinet without a mirror or see through cabinet it is fair game. I have one of the drill press attachment mortisers. I don't see what you guys are complaining about. Mine works great. I just did a job using hard maple and the 1/2" chisel. Worked fine. It can be inconvenient if you need the drill press and the mortiser at the same time. The tenon jig can usually be had for about $70 on sale and the mortiser with 4 chisels for about the same. A dedicated mortiser can be had for under $300, so there is a substantial savings if you already own a drill press and only need to use the mortiser occasionally.

[Jon Knauft]

There was an article in a recent woodworking magazine (I'll see if I can find the issue) that compared the different joints. It was fairly comprehensive with M/T taking the prize. It was interesting too since they compared various sizes of M/T joints and the one's with larger tenons were significantly stronger.

-Jon

[Jim Becker]

I do a LOT of pocket screw joinery these days and it has helped me greatly speed up many projects and simplify many types of assemblies. But I'd still use traditional T&T or loose tenons for joints that are intended to face higher stress. There is no "one" best joinery method...

[Tim Brooks]

Thanks so much for all of the input! I did go with the pocket hole jig for now. I will eventually pickup the M&T option. I will be putting it to use this weekend, I hope, so we will see how things go.

Again, thank so much for your time and input!

Tim

[Jim Kountz]

I feel its like anything else, there is a time and place for each.

[Joe Chritz]

Nuff said! When the only tool you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

Joe

[Larry Edgerton]

The kreg jig is to joinery what modulars are to construction.

[Alex Shanku]

The kreg jig is to joinery what modulars are to construction.


LOL!!:D

I like that one!

[Bill White]

Hands off my bride, my whiskey, and my Kreg.
Bill:D

[Per Swenson]

Apples, Oranges and Peaches.

Y'all forgot the Domino:D

Per

[Jim Becker]

The kreg jig is to joinery what modulars are to construction.

Yea, and there is a modular across the street from me that just sold for about $600K on a 1/2 acre lot. ;) And the basement and second level are not even "finished".

[Paul Demetropoulos]

Apples, Oranges and Peaches.

Y'all forgot the Domino:DPer

Shawn mentioned the Domino on the very first reply, but for a new woodworker, the Domino's $1000 entry point keeps it off the short list I think.

By the way Per:
I was in Denville, NJ once, nice little town. Had a Taylor ham, egg and cheese at the 1st Avenue Deli, umm.

[Ron Bontz]

Apples and Oranges. "That's all I got to say about that".:)