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Rick Potter
02-10-2009, 3:12 AM
I advertised a dust collector on Craigs List for $400. Got back an e-mail wanting to buy my ITEM for $400. Buyer says he will send me an electronic cashiers check for it, but I have to go to Office Depot and get special paper to print the check on. The paper purportedly costs $20, but he is willing to pay me $50 for the trouble.

When I get the paper, I print out the check and cash it, then his representative (he is too busy at work to come) will pick up the item.

OK, I figure it is a scam, but cannot figure how he can scam me if I print the check and cash it.

All I can come up with is that maybe when he sends me the electronic check, maybe it comes with a virus to get bank info off my computer?? OR...Maybe if I try to cash it, it will somehow go back to his computer with my info??

Any scam experts out there to tell me how this works??

This is the second time I have gotten this type of reply on a Craigs List ad.

Rick Potter

PS: This is the answer I gave him, brief and to the point......"ROFL".

Glen Dion
02-10-2009, 4:46 AM
Rick,

If it's a scam you may have already been had.
I sold something under very similar circumstances.
I suggested when he shows up for the item, we go cash his check.
This all worked out for me.

You might be able to create a pdf of the check and attach it to an email. Send it to his bank of choice and ask if it's valid. You may get the "Privacy" riot act or they just may validate it or suggest it's not a legal note - at least not with them.

If he's picking it up, also why not just hold the check and hand it back to him when he hands you the ca$h?

Joe Pelonio
02-10-2009, 7:56 AM
Once you have the bank name, routing and account numbers, anyone can verify a check. The bank will not give you the balance or any other information by phone, but they will tell you if the check is good.
You just call and tell them you were given a check and ask
them to verify that it's good.

Lee Schierer
02-10-2009, 8:04 AM
I've never sold anything on Craig's list nor bought anything from there. I have heard of this type of scam before. There are variations of how it appears to work. Basically they already know your email and may have already attempted to get into your computer for personal information. The electronic check may well be a trojan horse type of program that will get activated when you open it to print the check. By offering you extra money for your trouble they are relying on your greed to help them carry off their scam.

I would reply that you accept only cash at the time of pick up by his representative, make sure your security on your computer is set at the highest possible level and continue to advertise the item for sale as most likely you will never hear from this scammer again.

Rick Potter
02-10-2009, 10:30 AM
Lee, that is the type of scam I was wondering about, I'm just not computer savy enough to know how it works.

Let me clarify something I was apparantly not clear on. All I got was the offer, which I refused. I never got any electronic check, nor did I even look for the special paper. The only way anybody was going to buy it was for cash, representative or not. After reading some previous posts, I also am not giving buyers a tour of my shop, Creekers excepted of course.

I am just curious if anyone knows how the scam works.

Rick Potter

PS: I am a bit more careful now. I am making payments on money I borrowed for a room addition the contractor never built. Hopefully he will be in a BIG HOUSE soon, as there are several criminal investigations ongoing.

Chris Padilla
02-10-2009, 10:43 AM
I've bought and sold on craigslist quite a bit and have had no issues. It is usually pretty obvious when someone is trying to work a scam. All you have to do is stick to a "cash only" policy and everything will be fine. Most legitimate craigslist sellers/buyers understand this unwritten policy anyway so raise an eyebrow or two to anyone not upholding it.

Paul Steiner
02-10-2009, 10:46 AM
I have sold and purchased many things on CL and I thing it is a good place to find used equipment. There is a balance of being aware, looking out for yourself and trusting people. The first thing is I always do business in person and I usually make contact by phone first. Also I only deal in cash or cashier's checks.
All in all I have had more good experiences with CL than bad.

Karlan Talkington
02-10-2009, 10:50 AM
Part of the way this scam works is that they send you a check and sometimes they'll over pay but they ALWAYS say that they are too busy to come and get it themselves but will send someone.

The scam is they pick up the item, you cash the check and find its a fraudulent check. You are out the money and item.

They send you on errands for this and that to give the illusion of truth.
I think the idea of validating the check through bank of choice is best and to be done BEFORE anyone comes by to pick up the item.

Craigslist is a good way to do business its a shame that villians take advantage of it. Be careful out there.

James Jaragosky
02-10-2009, 11:47 AM
I have sold and purchased many things on CL and I thing it is a good place to find used equipment. There is a balance of being aware, looking out for yourself and trusting people. The first thing is I always do business in person and I usually make contact by phone first. Also I only deal in cash or cashier's checks.
All in all I have had more good experiences with CL than bad.

Do not be fooled into thinking that just because your bank clears the check that it is good.
There are many ways for a check to temporarily clear only to have your bank recover the money later.
I had a good friend get taken for 20k. The scamer took a legitimate check from a fortune 100 company and reproduced it watermarks and all, but changed the amount and company the check was to be paid to.
It took a few months for the company to audit and find the fraudulent check,then they recovered the money from my friends account.
He only discovered this after his checks started to bounce, no one from his bank bothered to tell him of the funds being reversed. Needless to say my friend was out the 20k and the equipment that was picked up. Because it took 3 months to discover, the trail was cold. Nether the postal service nor the FBI were unable to recover the equipment or the money.

Jim J.

Brent Leonard
02-10-2009, 12:07 PM
When selling, it's cash and in person.

When buying, allways check to item THOUROUGHLY. I have heard stories of items appearing to be in good condition, only to find out that it is not.



If the individual is difficult to deal with, I walk. CL is great, I've sold and bought alot. But if the deal isn't easy, I don't bother with it.
ALSO,
never accept the "consider it sold" line. I have been burned, turning down cash buyers for the "consider it sold, I'll pick it up next week" line. I even had one guy get angry at me and start yelling on the phone that I was an a-hole because I wouldn't hold the items till the next week. I did (hold the items), and then he wouldn't buy everything he committed to. Needless to say, my price immediately went UP, and told him to get lost if he didn't like it.

I'll never consider it sold, until there is cash in my pocket and the item is off my property.

Chris Padilla
02-10-2009, 12:15 PM
Brent,

I agree. When I've sold stuff, it is first come, first served and I make that clear but I do try to give the first inquirer a chance.

Also, I ONCE did a "freebie" item...ONCE. I will never ever put something up for free again. I'll put it up for a dollar at the least. Too many calls, too many hassles, and I nearly had a fist fight break out in my front yard. Forget it!

Robert McGowen
02-10-2009, 12:49 PM
Worse one I have had is when I was selling a Wii on Craig's list. A buyer immediately wanted to buy it. He said that he would meet me to pick up the Wii, but he wanted to pay for it with Paypal after we had met......... I guess there is scamming and there is there is just stupid.

Ben Rafael
02-10-2009, 1:52 PM
You dont need special paper to print a check.
You just need the correct information printed(or even handwritten) on a piece of paper and signed by an authorized signer on the account. It is a legal document. I doubt any banks would accept a handwritten one anymore; but if you print everything on plain printer paper it will be accepted by most banks. Some banks may give you a hard time or put on long holds.
If you take the check to the bank it is drawn on they will first verify funds and then call the accountholder to authorize payment. This is the safest way.

James Jaragosky
02-10-2009, 1:56 PM
You dont need special paper to print a check.
You just need the correct information printed(or even handwritten) on a piece of paper and signed by an authorized signer on the account. It is a legal document. I doubt any banks would accept a handwritten one anymore; but if you print everything on plain printer paper it will be accepted by most banks. Some banks may give you a hard time or put on long holds.
If you take the check to the bank it is drawn on they will first verify funds and then call the accountholder to authorize payment. This is the safest way.
verifying funds will not insure the check is good. Read my post in this thread for an example.
Go with your gut if it seems wrong walk away.

Joe Chritz
02-10-2009, 2:09 PM
I wouldn't say I am an expert on fraud but I have handled many fraud cases from an investigators stand point.

The check could clear easily today and it could still be bad. There are many ways to make this happen, some have been mentioned some haven't. Stop payments, closed accounts, fraudulent accounts, forged checks, modified legit checks are just a few. Even better I can open an account, fund it with a forged or fraudulent check, cash a check or two (or buy items) from it. Legit checks from a legit account that bounce because the original check (which was from an associate or the person themselves) bounces because it was bogus to begin with.

By the time you realize things aren't kosher they are long gone with your stuff and no where to be found. If you are lucky (unlikely) they are in the same state, once you start crossing state lines prosecution probabilty drops rapidly.

This is what I tell everyone who has questions on these things. If it seems weird, pass. Trust your gut, it will keep you alive. Financially as well as physically.

I have been at another assignment for a while so I am not up to date on all the new scams but this one is pretty straight forward.

Joe

Frank Hagan
02-10-2009, 5:51 PM
Lee, that is the type of scam I was wondering about, I'm just not computer savy enough to know how it works.

Let me clarify something I was apparantly not clear on. All I got was the offer, which I refused. I never got any electronic check, nor did I even look for the special paper. The only way anybody was going to buy it was for cash, representative or not. After reading some previous posts, I also am not giving buyers a tour of my shop, Creekers excepted of course.

I am just curious if anyone knows how the scam works.


There's a famous case where BofA actually had the victim arrested. He sold mountain bikes on Craig's List, and the buyer sent him extra money:



So Shinnick, who resides on Nob Hill, stopped by a BofA branch near Union Square in early January. He said he asked a teller if sufficient funds existed in the BofA business account to cover the check.



"She said it was a valid account and that there were funds to cover it," Shinnick recalled. "I said, 'Great,' and asked to cash the check."


He signed his name on the back.


What Shinnick didn't know is that he'd just become party to a crime. The bank account may have been real but the check was phony.


What he also didn't know is that, according to the police report for the case, a warning had been placed in BofA's computer system to watch for fraudulent checks drawn on the account in question.


The teller contacted the business and was informed that no check had been written to Shinnick for $2,000 or any other amount. She immediately passed the check to the branch manager.


"I saw him talking on the phone and staring at me," Shinnick said. "A few minutes later, four SFPD officers came into the bank. They didn't say a thing. They just kicked my legs apart and handcuffed me behind my back."

Read the full story at SF Gate (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/30/BUGTGKRHSF1.DTL)

The warning in this is that while Shinnick had all charges dropped, California law shields the merchant from any liability when involving the police in a financial transaction like this. So he is out about $14,000 in legal fees, according to the article, and neither the police nor the bank can be held responsible for reimbursing him.

Frank Hagan
02-10-2009, 5:53 PM
Once you have the bank name, routing and account numbers, anyone can verify a check. The bank will not give you the balance or any other information by phone, but they will tell you if the check is good.
You just call and tell them you were given a check and ask
them to verify that it's good.

No, they tell you if there are funds in the account to cover the check. If the check is a forgery, you can be arrested trying to pass it (see my other message).

Eric DeSilva
02-10-2009, 6:40 PM
Also, I ONCE did a "freebie" item...ONCE. I will never ever put something up for free again. I'll put it up for a dollar at the least. Too many calls, too many hassles, and I nearly had a fist fight break out in my front yard. Forget it!

Amen to that... I've bought and sold a lot of stuff on CL, but never, ever have had the types of hassles I got when I gave away two old craftsman workbenches...

Eric DeSilva
02-10-2009, 6:42 PM
Worse one I have had is when I was selling a Wii on Craig's list. A buyer immediately wanted to buy it. He said that he would meet me to pick up the Wii, but he wanted to pay for it with Paypal after we had met......... I guess there is scamming and there is there is just stupid.

Paypal has a certain amount of buyer protection that makes it sort of seller unfriendly. If he had a complaint, he could initiate a paypal dispute, and I think they would take the funds back... You were wise to insist on cash.

Brent Leonard
02-10-2009, 6:56 PM
Brent,

I agree. When I've sold stuff, it is first come, first served and I make that clear but I do try to give the first inquirer a chance.

Also, I ONCE did a "freebie" item...ONCE. I will never ever put something up for free again. I'll put it up for a dollar at the least. Too many calls, too many hassles, and I nearly had a fist fight break out in my front yard. Forget it!


I have worked with people before on the "consider it sold" thing, and have had it work out. I felt good that a honest person got what they wanted and appreciated me holding the item for just a little until they could make the time to pick it up,

but I've lost out on selling items before doing that also.


Thanks for the tip on the "freebie" item. I'll remember that ;)