combination planes

[Matt Ranum]

I'm curious, are the combination planes like the #45, #46, #50, #55, are they really all they're cracked up to be or are they bought to complete a collection and not generally used? I just seem to see them more now than ever on that auction site, and bringing some pretty big bucks if they are complete.

[Jim Koepke]

I use mine all the time for rabbeting and to lay down a bead or flutes. Occasionally the 55 is used for making moldings.

Will likely try to use a 45 to slit veneer for inlay when I attempt to do that.

Currently, my accumulation consists of five 45s and one 55. Four of my 45s are set up with different blades in them at present for different uses.

Look for a Ward's Master if you are not picky. They are the same 45 plane Stanley made for Ward's and are usually not as expensive because the purists and collectors want the Stanley name on the plane.

My advice is to get one made after about 1915. That has the fine adjustment on the fence. Make sure it has the fence locking screw on the side of the fence instead of the top. If the screw is missing, it is hard to find a replacement.

If you are looking at some on eBay before buying, send me a PM (private message) or post here and I will be happy to show you some of the things to look for. Looking now at completed auctions, the prices do not seem that out of line. A good one that was made before the date suggested above sold for $56 recently with blades. That is less than a set of blades sells for at times. It doesn't have the fine adjustment on the fence, the short rods and slitter are missing along with a few other items, but it is a start. There is also a nice one sold for $122.50 in real good shape. Last time I saw the current equivalent on the market it was over $500, the ones on eBay aren't too bad. If you look at auction # 230323281762 you will see one with the adjustable fence but the locking screw is above the adjustment screw. This model was only made for a short time before they figured locking the moving rod would be better. My advice is to not buy this particular type model unless it is needed for a collection.

Also, some of the ones from eBay may have mixed parts and it may not be noticeable until you get the plane in your possession. This is not too much of a problem for a user.

Finally, sometimes pieces are not square and some fettling (adjustments) may be needed. One of mine needed some shims placed under the fence wood and the movable skate is a little longer than the main body, but it works.

jim

[Ray Sheley]

45 type planes were also sold by SARGENT, and I have a CRAFTSMAN marked plane that is identical to the SARGENT model except for the CRAFTSMAN logo. However unlike our friend Jim, I don't yet have a lot of experience using these planes.
"ANCORA IMPARO" (STILL I AM LEARNING).

[Robert Rozaieski]

A lot of folks do actually use them and still quite a few merely collect them. I had a Sargent 1080 but I was never able to do much good with it. With the wider plow irons it worked fine, however, the irons I use the most like the small beads and plows were too small and the plane was just too top heavy and difficult to use. For bead irons, the quirks of the beads were actually narrower than the skate and therefore the skate would bind in the quirk and I could never cut a decent bead with them. In addition, not having a true sole meant that the plane would dig at the beginning of the cut and dive at the end of the cut when using the plane to cut a bead and therefore I would ruin 4-6 inches of the molding on each end so you would always need to make it at least a foot longer than needed so you could cut off the ends later. I use a wooden plow and dedicated wooden bead planes now and I like them better. You really only need a few sizes anyway. Of the irons that come with the combination planes I think I ever only really used maybe 5 or 6 tops. I much prefer the dedicated planes now.

[Matt Ranum]

Thanks for the opinions guys. I've been thinking about getting one but can't make up my mind if a combo is better or dedicated wood planes. Something about the novelty factor with these is appealing though.:rolleyes:

I know some have gone for around $50 but it seems the ones I always look at are running over $100. I'll keep my eyes open for the off brands and check them out.

[John Dykes]

I recently bought a Stanley 55 - (said to be previously owned by Mike Wenzloff). With recent pressures at work (I work for a homebuilder \ mortgage company :0), I've not been in the shop much to work with it.

That said, if I had the brains and hands of Mr. Rozaieski or deep pockets, I'd opt for wooden molding planes. I'd love to get a few, but in Denver - it's hard to get some hands on experience - and I don't trust myself to roll the dice on ebay versions.

[Brad Patch]

Using these planes can at times be an exercise in frustration. The learning curve can be steep. They can be difficult to properly set-up and adjust. Wood selection is critical, straight grain, absence of grain reversal and avoidance of knots will avoid a lot to problems. I like the beading capability and even with careful stock selection sometimes I get a little tearout, which is not objectionable in period work and restoration. Having said all that, I use a Stanley 45 and there are times when nothing else will do.

I suspect the inherent difficulty associated with these type planes discourages some to put them aside, or resell them before fully mastering their intricacies.

[David Keller NC]

"I know some have gone for around $50 but it seems the ones I always look at are running over $100. I'll keep my eyes open for the off brands and check them out."

Matt - What you're seeing on e-bay represents the lowest these planes have sold for in more than 15-20 years. The user/collector's market for old tools has pretty much crashed, both for high-end items and low-end users.

If you want one, I suspect you will not see this low a price again. Even on e-bay, complete 45's (except without the original instructions, screwdriver or box) were selling in the $250+ range about a year and half ago.

[Dave Anderson NH]

John, There is no need to put yourself at the mercy of eBay for molding planes. There are plenty of reputable old tools dealeers who can sell you what you want and who guarantee what they sell. I personally like many of the British makers for hollows and rounds, bead, and other types too. They are generally available in a York pitch (50 degree) which is designed for cabinetmakers rather than the standard 45 degree pitch which was more for joiners and carpenters. I've had great results emailing my needs and ordering from Tony Murland in the UK. Prices are fair, quality is good, and the shipping is quite inexpensive.

[Jim Koepke]

All the above is pretty good information.

It took me awhile to make beads without ruining the ends of the piece.

Even a rabbet or groove could be a challenge. The most important part of using one of these is to not try and rush. Make deliberate motions, do not let the plane rock and do not try to complete the job with one massive shaving. My experience has shown me to try to take the lightest shaving possible. Once one is successful doing this, then work toward a heavier shaving.

I have not had much success with the knickers on end grain, so the work is scored first. As others have mentioned, these planes may have been targeted more for the carpenter trade, not the cabinetmaker trade.

I do have some woodies but have found having the fence on the 45 makes it easier to use for set up once the learning curve has been climbed.

Roy Underhill uses it in "The Woodwright's Shop" to cut a groove while making a Jefferson book stand:
http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/schedule/28season_video.html

jim

[Matt Ranum]

"I know some have gone for around $50 but it seems the ones I always look at are running over $100. I'll keep my eyes open for the off brands and check them out."

Matt - What you're seeing on e-bay represents the lowest these planes have sold for in more than 15-20 years. The user/collector's market for old tools has pretty much crashed, both for high-end items and low-end users.

If you want one, I suspect you will not see this low a price again. Even on e-bay, complete 45's (except without the original instructions, screwdriver or box) were selling in the $250+ range about a year and half ago.


Thats interesting, I didn't know that.

Great advice here on this forum, as always.

Thanks for all the opinions!

[David Keller NC]

Matt - One caution. Becasue of the extraordinarily low prices, many sellers on e-bay are selling their cast-offs, and don't bother listing "the good stuff". If you want to buy a 45 off of e-bay, I'd recommend getting at least the reprinted instructions first and familiarize yourself with the parts that are supposed to go with the plane. Also, scrutinize the photographs closely - many of these tools have been broken and repaired by brazing. That in and of itself doesn't mena that it won't work as a user, but a misaligned repair could be trouble.

BTW - Here's one source for info on Stanley combination planes, though it isn't specific to the 45:

http://www.astragalpress.com/stanley_combination_plane.htm

And one other note about e-bay - the comment about the tool market having just about crashed does not apply to Lie-Nielsen tools. They generally bring 80% of their current price from Lie-Nielsen, and in some cases, the full purchase price from Lie-Nielsen.

[Matt Ranum]

Thanks David. I'll check it out.

[Jim Koepke]

Also beware of the booklets sold on eBay. There is one with a red cover that has instructions for the 45, 50 & 55 that the starting bid is about $9. The book sells for $4.50 in stores that carry it.

The instructions are available on the internet for the cost of a few pixels.

I just did a Google search on >Stanley 45< and there is more than one could read in a life time. This is a good start for general information:

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan6.htm

This site is good for information on any Stanley plane.

jim

[Matt Ranum]

Ahh yes, blood and gore. I've spent more hours than I care to say on Leach's site.;)