Do you shop Mom & Pop?

[Phil Phelps]

We had another go down the tubes here in Dallas. A sole proprietor hardware store. How many are we loosing each year to corporate America? It's a tragedy, really. We do, from time to time, need to shop the big box store, but it doesn't seem like enough are. There is an independent, that I shop, that will match any saw price of anyone locally. The independents are drying up, and it's a shame. I don't know about you, but I'll miss the one on one service. Many hardware stores have a repair shop that actually repairs chain saws, lawn equipment, etc. Paint stores are becoming extinct, too. I recommend everyone shop a "real" paint store. If for nothing else, the expert advise that so many offer. And, the independent nurseries are slowly going by the wayside. Big box can't answer the horticultural questions that you really need. If you have one of these independents in your community please, give them a chance to once again, be of service to you. If you consider the time, service, and convenience thats offered, they are a great bargain too good to pass up. Obviously, I am a big believer in small business. I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot to shop the "Handy Dandy" for our every need. This has been bothering me for some time and I just wanted to share my thoughts.

[Dr. Zack Jennings]

My wonderful Hardware store closed @ 15 years ago. They would put a new handle in your ax for you. (I have since learned how not to break the handle). When they went out of business they had an auction. Wonderful things were sold that hadn't been manufactured in years. Old stock that was buried in the backrooms, etc.

When I was young, it seemed to me that all my dad's friends were small merchants, a jewler, a shoe sore owner (Do you remember those great Buster Brown Neon Signs), a watch repair man, a local department store owner.....

Someone said the other day thay 80% of all sales taxes in my county are collected at Wal-Mart. Can that be true???

[Jim Baker]

Phil, we like to shop Mom and Pop when we can because of the personalized service that we receive.

We are just finishing a major renovation on our home and have had the pleasure to do business with several Mom and Pop shops including:

Effingham Builders Supply - an independent family owned full line lumberyard. Several of their employees made personal visits to our home during the process to insure that we would get exactly what we wanted to make our project come out perfectly. One of their salespeople personally delivered one backordered stairway spindle at our house on Christmas eve. I don't think "big box" would do that.

[Rob Glynn]

Don't feel isolated over there in NA.
What you are seeing happen to small traders in the US is happening here also. We have the added annoyance that the major chainstore type retailers are largely owned by multinational companies and are owned off-shore from Australia.
In Albany WA, my closest major shopping location, a wonderful old hardware store closed in the last 6 months. This place had been trading from the same premises for almost 100 years. OK, it was a bit dusty and untidy, but the people who worked there knew what they had in stock and they knew what it was for.
At the closing down sale I picked up some stuff, including bits for my old brace, squared off bulging end and all, and the price on them was marked in shillings and pence. Oz went to the $ in 1966, the year I got married.
The premises are now a fancy liquor store, which helps with another hobby of mine, but that is another story.
It is a shame that "progress" is killing off the personal service outlets.
:mad:

[Ted Shrader]

Phil -

I try to spend my money wisely. Paying the lowest price for a tool / part is not always the best value. I place value on service and knowledge level.

My grandfather owned a hardware store/lumberyard grain elevator. Long since sold. I worked in a Mom and Pop hardware store during college. I really enjoyed helping people when they came in. It was fun to see their faces when they saw the solution to their problem.

Ted

[John Miliunas]

Phil, you're right on many points, particularly the Customer Service end. On the other hand, it's really not the big box stores that did this to the small guy. It's *us*, the consumers. It may sound a bit harsh, but very true. The "mom & pos" are usually in smaller communities. Communities which often can't provide a good employment base for all of its members. Hence, the folks in those communities head for the bigger towns to work. So, as long as they're "in town" anyway, they stop at one of the big box stores for their needs. Partially because it's handy, but more, I think, it's due to the selection and price structure. We've asked the mom & pop to store more items, but their physical and/or financial situation doesn't allow for it. So, we head off for the "Big City" for many of our needs. I admit, I'm guilty of that, too. Sure, I try to buy locally when I can, but my budget is limited and the local folks simply can't buy enough quantity to make either, the selections or pricing as appealing as their larger counterparts. The buying public loves choices and have demanded that. The big box boys provide that. It's kind of like what happened with Microsoft. People kept wanting certain features. Then they wanted applications to easier work with each other. And, after they found out that MS will supply them with such, they wanted more. In the end, many of those same people are screaming "monopoly" and asking, "Why in the Hell do all of these apps have to intertwine so much?" Why indeed. It's because that's what we asked for! Also, for whatever it's worth, I've had some pleasant and positive experiences with some of the smaller "mom & pop" stores, but on the other hand, we have, for instance, a local hardware store where the owner/operator gives you more blank stares than answers! His prices are way out in left field and he stocks more cookware than tools and hardware! Sometimes I'll get lucky and find something I'm in need of and only pay 20% more than in the city. Sadly, most of the time he doesn't have what I need or is not at all shy about charging close to twice what I can buy the same item at HD for. :cool:

[Kurt Krauter in Indy]

Hey guys...just thought I'd put a little add here to let you all know that from where I sit, Mom and Pop are still doing well...well, kinda...

We do a lot of business with lumber yards across the country (we supply rack supported buildings for lumber storage) and most of the ones we work with are still the small Mom and Pop variety that have moved to more lumber sales along with hardware...and here's why...

Mr Big Box has no way of working with the contractor on a regular basis. As many of you know, getting decent lumber from a box is pretty much a hit and miss thing. The small lumber yard is much better suited to be able to respond and provide better service to the contractor client.

This has been huge in these recent economic times when the building industry has, IMHO, kept the ship afloat. Contractors can't wait til the store opens at 10 to get their lumber packages out to the jobsite. They also can still count on the small store owner to be able to be contacted after hours and get service (that's what has always made them stand out)whereas they'd only get an answering machine at the box.

I have spoken to thousands of small companies and they say the big box swallowing the small ones just isn't the case. These co-ops and buying groups make it easier for the small guys to compete pricewise and they welcome the fight. Support your local Ace or Do It Best or Scott's or truserve, et al.....they are still small stores (though some are pretty big multi store outfits) that have the "helpful hardware man". I also say support the boxes too...they all have their strengths.

I am not an employee or PR guy for any of the above...I do business with all including the big boxes...and am just telling it the way I've been seeing it...hope I haven't broken any rules or p'd anyone off...not my intent.

Kurt

[Joe Suelter]

Phil, I couldn't agree more, especially about the paint stores. Everyone needs to visit a real paint store, and just by a gallon of paint for something...there is something to be said about a good paint. I used to only use Sears paint, as it was the best out there...compared to Lowe's, Menards, etc... My Brother in Law works for a Benjamin Moore dealer, and WOW, what a difference. I cringe everytime I'm at Lowe's or even WalMart when I see somebody buying paint. They will buy the cheapest paint they can find, and then buy one coat brushes and rollers, and expect it to work! Just don't make good sense.

[John Wadsworth]

We're lucky here in the village of Delhi to have a real, old-fashioned, family-owned (third generation) hardware store. The heating and gas supply business run out of the back room may help with keeping it open. There's a home improvement place just outside town, too, but it's no great shakes.

In the nearest largish town (Oneonta) there are several thriving lumberyard/contractor supply/home improvement emporiums--however, the local newspaper now reports that BOTH HD and Lowe's are building there--so how long will the independents last?

I'll always shop local if I can, but for bigger stuff having the big box stores only 25 miles away will save me the drive to Binghamton or Middletown, each about three times that distance.

[George Summers]

I try to use the local stores (small town of 8000 with a locally owed Ace, two local lumber yards/building supply places, etc). I get all my home maintenance, project hardware, gardening supplies, etc there. But, and I may be wrong, I draw the line at paying $75-$80 for a power hand tool that is available at the big box for $45-$50. I hate having to be this way, but $$$ do mean something at some point. A buck more for an electrical outlet, or a couple of dollars difference in a toilet repair kit is not that much, but $40-$50 more for a circular saw is meaningful. No where in town for big stationary tools so I don't have that delimma.

George

[Stan Smith]

These are really interesting posts illustrating a national dilemma (+ Australia). Have you noticed that it has also happened to the restaurants. The old downtown areas have gone by the wayside with the move to the suburbs, too. I think that a lot of this is demographics coupled with supply and demand factors. Yeah, I'm sad about it too, but nothing remains the same forever. Even some large chains have had trouble here, because the pie was sliced too many times for our population base. I do shop in the smaller stores, but more often than not go to HD. Why? Because they have both lumber and hardware. The local stores just don't have the selection. Tools? I buy on line since most of the time they don't even carry what I want let alone have it in stock. Yeah, they will order it for you, but by the time I drive into town and back, my on-line order would have already been processed. People now are looking for price and convenience. Quality is no longer important as it once was and, sadly, a lot of people don't even know what good customer service is. My biggest complaint about the large chain stores is that the young people working their don't have enough knowledge to answer a lot of questions. There is also a large turnover of employees. Some stores, like OSH, rotate their employees around to different departments--just when they are beginning to know something. Cross-training does have some limitations.

[Dave Anderson NH]

When it comes to the commodity items like hardware type hardware and paint and tools, I usually buy from the big box for the price. When it comes to lumber both for carpentry and for furnituremaking, I ONLY buy from the local independents. The big boxes have generally a poorer quality and a poorer selection. I mean really, how often does your local dealer come up with marketing BS like "center cut 2x4s". For those who haven't been exposed, this means the pith of the tree was left in and the piece will warp and twist like a corkscrew. Then of course, there is the question of service. In the big box you're lucky if the folks can tell you where something is located and any advice you may get is highly suspect. The ads touting their "pros" are a little absurd. Would you work at HD or Lowe's as a licensed trademan for $10-16 per hour when you could make $25-35 or more working for a contractor or independently? Well I guess this is a good time to end the rant.

[Dave Arbuckle]

Anyone who lives around me should know that Plano Ace (Brader, some will know it as) not only has better hardware selection than the Borg, but in the cases where I've paid attention they also have better prices. This is at least partly attributable to being able to buy the exact quantity I need, rather than having to buy two packages because the package quantity is exactly one less than what I need.

Plus, I can write down what I need and send my wife over, in a pinch. If I tried that and sent her to Home Depot, she would probably never do me a favor again.

Dave

[Lee Schierer]

Where i used to work I could get to one at lunch and make it back. None around in this part of town that are worth a hoot.

I still go by the old one when I get a chance. They still have the best selection of screws in town.

[Jesper Grønvaldt]

It does not matter where you are, the Wally Worlds, Bauhaus, Aldi, Netto, Lowes and other bog box stores are taking over - unless you look a bit closer.

Mom and pop are probably gone as far as size is concerned, but competitively run locally owned stores are making inroads in markets where there is a big enough demand to make an alternate viable.

The idea that the big box stores are offering bargain prices is a fallacy. They do not. They offer certain loss leaders to get you the idea, and then get you on the minutia of small items.

I have investigated our local situation here. The names are different from the US and Canada, but the principles are the same. I was able to find a local quality lumber/hardware/garden store who would give me a "homebuilder's discount" and bill monthly. I checked prices for months before buying anything, and have found that where I now buy has better quality and lower prices consistently and I get service and recognition.

I bet if you have a local store still, you can walk in there, explain what you want and get a good deal that beats the big box stores.


If the customer wants quality price and service and let the merchants know, that's what they will get. Period.

[John Miliunas]

There was a time, in a town where I lived quite some time ago, where what you say was almost true. The ownere couldn't go quite that far with discounts, but it was close enough to keep me in town. Sadly, where I live now, this is not the case. This particular town primarily caters to the older crowd. He knows they'd rather not make the trip to the big city. His prices and selection show it. He has pretty much most of the basics covered, but barely and one often has "to make do" with what he has to offer. And, you PAY for it! Dearly. Typically, the items he does put on sale (rarely) are then priced at what the "everyday price" is elsewhere. Yes, I did question him about his pricing and selection, indicating that if it were more favorable, I wouldn't hesitate visiting more often. He replied that he "usually gets what he's pricing stuff at" and has no need to discount it any more. He point blank told me that the people who shop his store are mainly the "old timers" and would rather not go to the city. The owner himself is NOT one of the "old timers", but rather, closer to my age. I have news for this fella': Those older folks aren't going to be around forever and in the meantime, he's missing an opportunity to build a clientelle with those of us who will end up being the "old timers". Don't know...Maybe he's making enough now that he's planning on an early retirement himself!:cool:

[Ed Marks]

When the big box guys first came to this part of the world I thought it would be great. Lots of quantity, long hours, tons of products, .... you know the story. After about 6 mo of hefting low quality lumber off of one rack into another in order to find what I wanted (my money's worth) I switched back to the local family owned place for construction grade lumber. I don't heft anything. They deliver it where I want it, when I want it, for free. The waste level is very acceptable so I can trust them to do that. As for furniture lumber, I never left my set of suppliers. The big box place could never compete on quality or price. In fact the price for "furniture grade" hardwoods was astronomical.

The day my wife waited in the truck at the big box was the day I finally realized that going there was like going to the mall in December. It's crazy, crowded, ugly, and customer service was a laugh at best. I pretty much wrote these guys off and went back to the local mom & pop hardware store. They treat me well, can get me anything I want in a reasonable amount of time, are helpful to a fault, are closer to me, and keep a well organized (logical) shop, and the slightly higher prices are more then paid for in gas savings (not to mention aggrevation savings). What more can one ask for?

[Tom Gattiker]

I would gladly pay 10-20% more for a product that I can be confident is high quality and especially for the knowledge that many mom and pop employees have. Plus I don't spend a ton of time getting thu the parking lot, the store and the checkout. I almost always buy from my local small store because I value my time.

BUT although I know that the big chains make it real tough on the smaller stores, the smaller stores need to help themselves with smart HR practices, smart inventory mgt, and so on.

I am convinced that many small stores can compete with the big chains. But they must not deteriorate their distinguishing competencies--mainly employee knowledge. We had a great paint store. But then on weekends, they started employing the kind of know-nothings that Lowes and HD employ. Once they did that, why pay more to go the the small business?

Also I understand that the ancient inventory that these stores carry may be charming (itmes that have been on the shelves for 10 years), but what does it say about the inventory management practices of these business? Nothing good.

[Mike Vermeil]

It's capitalism, plain and simple, and it's one of the things that has made our nation great.

When I shop, I want the best selection at the lowest prices. The old mom & pop hardware stores can't hold a candle to the big retailers in either area. I was so sick of "making do" with what my local hardware store had - stacking up three or four plumbing fittings to form what is available in one piece at Home Depot or Lowes. And even when my local store had the same thing, I paid 30 to 50% more!

For another example, look at bikes. When I was a kid, we paid out the wazoo for everything little thing we needed for our bikes from the "local bike shop." Now, I can go to Toys 'R' Us and buy my kid a great little bike for 50 bucks! Sure it's made over there instead of here, but because of that, I can give my kid a bike that my parents never could have afforded. And let's face it, the kids of the people who used to work on that Schwinn assembly line are now making a living writing software & selling pharmacuticals, and making more money than their parents ever dreamed of.

Mom & pop operations will survive where market forces allow them to - exactly how it's supposed to work.

[Tom Gattiker]

It may be 'just the forces of capitalism', but certainly something is lost as we go from small biz to huge biz. I like knowing the people, I buy from. I look forward to seeing them (with my young boy) every saturday.

It is also regrettable that big chains have essentially de-skilled the customer service function. In the small business, the person serving you is usually an expert. He/she has an intrinsically rewarding job (one that often pays well too) based on application of his/her expertise to solve people's problems (at least a lot of folks find that type of job rewarding). At the big chains, the CS people are basically stockkeepers-- a role that is usually lower on job satisfaction and on pay.

We may pay less from the big boxes, but, as a society I am not sure we are really better off under their presence.

[Mike Vermeil]

Tom,

I agree with basically eveything you just said. Something is definitely lost when we go from mom & pop operations to the big retailers. However, we can't stop the change from happening. The only that could stop it is market forces, and I don't see that happening.

And I would say that for what we lost with the demise of mom & pop's, we've gained in selection & better value. It's like most change: something lost & something gained. Some people may like the old, some the new, but there's no doubt about it, the new is coming. It always has. And more importantly, if we as a nation are to stay on top, it always must. Look what has happened to so many former world powers in the last century and a half. France, along with their unions, refused to change, and now they're reduced to begging other has-been nations to join them in a last ditch effort to regain some relevance in the world. We, on the other hand, embraced change over the last hundred years, and now look where we are, on top as the lone superpower.

[Tom Gattiker]

Mike,
Well said. I understand your point.

[Keith Outten]

Hey, I Resemble That Remark!

Got to get my 25 cents in on this one as I have first hand information for you to chew on.

Did you know that 2 years ago there were over 17,500 Internet Providers in America? In the last issue of Boardwatch Magazine there were only 2,500 left. We are an endangered species.

Everyone wants broadband, and the big public monopoly's have a lock on the distribution of broadband Internet Service. Competition is a wonderful thing but have you ever tried to compete with a monopoly that is guaranteed a profit from your state corporation commission?

Now...the price is going up and it will go right through the roof in the next couple of years as the local ISP's are finally gone. In our area the cable provider has just added upload and download restrictions to their web site, buried many pages back where it is tough to find. They don't want to let you know that if you exceed the monthly limits you will be forced into another higher priced program. These guys must have the record for rate increases as well, and they are probably losing money on cable modems at the current rate.

The Plot Thickens

Right behind the telephone and the cable companies looms the huge electrical utilities. Larger by far than all of the other monopolies combined the electrical company's are gearing up to provide Internet service and most likely down the road telephone and television as well. I used to work for our state electrical power company and can tell you that they are financially and politically powerful. What do you think will happen to our cost of Internet access and web hosting services?

For years the big corporations have been biting at the bit to move to a metered rate Internet Service just like the electrical meter on the side of your home...I can't wait to see the bills and hear all the crybabies whining....where have all the ISP's gone? Even the national Internet Providers will fold up in the very near future when the electrical power companies own it all.

The FCC has recently removed all of the protection we once had so the road is clear ahead for the public monopolies to reach right into our wallets and take whatever they want.

Nobody really supports local businesses, even other small businesses these days go for the lowest price...even if it is the worst service.

[Mike Vermeil]

Keith,

The common thread througout your post is government. It is my opinion that with very few exceptions, whenever they disrupt market forces with legislation and regulation designed to "help" an industry or it's consumers, it always turns out bad in the end.

One major reason why utility companies are the monopolies they are is because of gov't intervention in the production and distribution of energy. And don't be fooled by California. They didn't deregulate, they re-regulated.

If gov't stays out of the internet all together, everything will be fine. No matter how big the companies are who will be providing access in the future, as long as anit-trust laws are enforced, there will always be space for an interprising young company to take advantage of their slugishness and weaknesses. That's not to say it will be easy, or that eveyone who tries will succeed, but those with the best product, service and reliability will eventually carve out a niche for themselves. However, if small companies rely on the gov't to "help" them compete, they're doomed for failure in the end.

[Jerry P. Doan]

Mike, who else but the Government will enforce the anti-trust laws?

[Mike Vermeil]

What are you saying, that I've oversimplified things?

My point is this. In general, I believe regulation of a specific industry by the gov't is a bad idea. Any time you have people making rules for something they know nothing about, bad things are bound to happen. Now having said that, gov't regulation of some industries has definitely helped - the meat and produce industries for example. But where do you draw the line? It's a tough question. How do you draw it? I'd say with your vote every four years.

Anti-trust laws, however, are not aimed at a specific industry. They exist to keep the playing field of the American economy level - to make sure that the best ideas will at least have a chance to rise to the top. Now in practice, of course, it doesn't always work. But the intention at least needs to be there.

But what the heck do I know? I'm just an engineer who decided to make a post during his lunch break! I'm beginning to see why Badger Pond disallowed political discussions. Too many guys like me out there who can't keep their mouth shut.

[Phil Phelps]

...We are the ones that can make the difference. Stop buying cheap goods. Quit patronizing bad movies. Buy American. Demand good service. Learn what true value really is. So far, a few have posted their M&P's arn't going that extra mile. They will fail. If people are satisfied with mediocrity, they too, will fail. If people keep swarming the chain restaurants, thinking that is good food, then the M&P restaurants will fail. We need to set higher standards for ourselves. I worry about America. We have a war that is about to begin, and many good Americans will die. Some, " Americans ", will be angry their favorite TV program will be interrupted. I believe in small business and I believe in America. I still think "we" can make a difference.

[Keith Outten]

Mike,

My specific point is that there is no competition. The public utilities own the power poles, the wires and all of the buried cable. They don't have to share the facilities or open them up to competition.

Lets say that I wanted to start my own cable Internet company. I would need the permission of every locality to start digging up the streets all over town to install my cable. At the same time you want to start your own cable company and you are digging up the roads as well...you get the point. You and I should have the opportunity to start our own business if we want but we have public utilities that are operated as monopolies and goverened by local and state organizations so some type of businesses are not open for new businesses to compete.

These public utilities used their unfair advantage as a monopoly and seized an industry that was built by small local entrepreneurs. In the beginning the monopolies did not want any part of the Internet but now it's big business and they are not used to competition. As the technology developed they sold it below their costs and when the competition is gone they will raise the rates to profittable levels.

This isn't a political issue, it is a business issue. We all know that competition is good yet we are allowing an entire industry to be removed from a competitive structure at a time when the monopolies are supposed to be going through deregulation. Remember that the Internet was devastating to the telephone industry...particularly long distance. Why do you think the prices dropped it sure wasn't because the long distance companies love their customers. Email has played a major part of the decline in AT&T revenues and the local phone companies have suffered as well. They intend to get that revenue back. Also the telcos have been the biggest road block to innovatiion in the industry for the last fifty years.

The Internet has also proven to be a very valuable commerce avenue. He who owns the road can set up toll boths and charge whatever they please.

[Jerry P. Doan]

I dislike the hassle of all the wires and cables attached to my computer. I would think that high speed wireless technology, once it matures, would provide an opportunity for small business to become competitive ISP's once more. To me, one reason that high speed ISP is not very competitive at the moment is that is is being provided through cables and telephone wires located in the utilities' right-of-way, and no one has forced the utilities to share with the smaller ISP's yet.

[Cam.Hedrick]

As a builder I use the local building supplies vice the Lowes and HD for all of my materials. My subs all use local suppliers as well.
We shop at a great little hardware store in town that's been around for 137 years and still goes strong...largely because it's the only Mom & Pop in town and service is great. Service at Lowes and HD in far below standards...at least mine.
I turn a large amount of business through the local supplier that I use each year, and am friends with each and every one on the people that work there. I know who to go to when I need something and most of the time fax or call in what I need.....I receive the orders on site correct to the last bolt or nail.
Wonderful service brings repeat business.:cool:

[Mike Vermeil]

Keith - I understand what you're saying, and I understand the dilema. It is defintely a very valid point. I don't think anyone wants to see access to the internet monopolized. And I would hope that the very nature of the internet would keep that from happening. Are you speaking mainly of high-speed internet access? It would seem that as long as you can reach the internet through local phone connections, the ability to monopolize is limited.

I also agree with the person a couple posts up who said wireless seems the way to go. Satelite also seems a good route, although one could point out that comptetition in satelite TV is dwindling with every merger & aquisition.

Little business has always fought big business, and I guess it will always be that way.

[J.R. Rutter]

I am lucky enough to live in a town where the long established family run hardware store is alive and well. I use them for everything, from washers to large machinery (they are a JET/PowerMatic/Performax dealer). Best service and most knowledgable staff in town. People often get referred there by the old timers working the shelves in the big box stores.

Long live Hardware Sales of Bellingham!

[Steven Wilson]

Originally posted by Jerry P. Doan
I dislike the hassle of all the wires and cables attached to my computer. I would think that high speed wireless technology, once it matures, would provide an opportunity for small business to become competitive ISP's once more. To me, one reason that high speed ISP is not very competitive at the moment is that is is being provided through cables and telephone wires located in the utilities' right-of-way, and no one has forced the utilities to share with the smaller ISP's yet.

Big, big problem. Where are you going to get the frequencies to support it - cell phone calls are short, online connections are long lived. There is a limited amount of spectrum that can be used for this.

[Jerry P. Doan]

Originally posted by Steven Wilson
Big, big problem. Where are you going to get the frequencies to support it - cell phone calls are short, online connections are long lived. There is a limited amount of spectrum that can be used for this.

Steve, I'm not an expert on this issue, but I know from reading computer articles that the process to shift from wired to wireless is already underway. Certainly, there are many problems to be overcome, but not unsurmountable ones. The wireless connections of the future may not resemble the wired connections of the past. For instance, if you can now take a laptop to some Starbucks or McDonalds and connect wirelessly to their high speed (wired?) node, why shouldn't I expect sometime soon to connect wirelessly to a remote high speed node from anywhere, even while I'm in transit?

My point is that technology is changing too rapidly for the cable, phone, or utility companies to keep a stranglehold on the ISP business for long.

[Dave Avery]

Phil,

Just like to say that I agree wholeheartedly with both your original post and teh follow-up.

While I understand Mike's comments and agree conceptually with the capitalism argument, my small mind isn't smart enough to figure out what Americans are going to DO for a living 30 years from now. If 20 years ago you had told me that the US would be sourcing IT and engineering - I'm taking about complex jet engine work - to India, I'd have said 'no way'. What's next. And what do I tell my kids when they ask advice about future career options..... follow your heart, do what you like, and be prepared to start from scratch when your job gets shipped overseas?

There has to be a happy medium and I believe that your sentiments define - at least in some ways - that middle ground.

Dave.

[Glenn Hodges]

We want customers to buy from us, you know buy local, so is there any logic in buying from the big chain stores which never buy from us. If we keep buying from overseas factories, we will never have them as customers, and our money will never come back to us. Our handmade and local made wood products are bought by our local people, why not patronize our local people? Just a thought.

[John Sanford]

Originally posted by Mike Vermeil
Keith - I understand what you're saying, and I understand the dilema. It is defintely a very valid point. I don't think anyone wants to see access to the internet monopolized. And I would hope that the very nature of the internet would keep that from happening. Are you speaking mainly of high-speed internet access? It would seem that as long as you can reach the internet through local phone connections, the ability to monopolize is limited.

[quote]I also agree with the person a couple posts up who said wireless seems the way to go. Satelite also seems a good route, although one could point out that comptetition in satelite TV is dwindling with every merger & aquisition.

The merger of DirectTV and EchoStar has gone down the tubes, it ain't happenin. You are correct in that the Wireless is the way it will go, and the Internet landscape will come to look much like cellular phones, with the ISP occupying the same role as the cellular retailer does today.

One of the things that Keith hasn't mentioned is the incredibly wide variety of players having a stake in the digital backbone, players that include the traditional telecom companies, railroads, natural gas companies, huge ISPs, government, etc. Some of the small ISPs WILL go out of business, but it isn't necessarily going to be because of the "monopolistic public utilities." Many of these same public utilities are facing massive challenges of their own, within their own markets. Additionally, all public utilities operate under far greater government oversight than your local ISP, which limits their ability to react to changes as rapidly, gives them far higher labor costs (Davis-Bacon, unions, etc). In short, things ain't all peachy keen in utility land either, which you can confirm by checking the bond ratings of the industry.

Another aspect that hasn't been explored yet, to my knowledge, is Internet service with a business structure akin to the power co-ops.


Little business has always fought big business, and I guess it will always be that way.

Yeah, and every big business started as little business, something that is frequently overlooked. Also, a simple review of the components of the Dow Jones Index over the last 100 years will reveal something else that eludes the general perception: big businesses come and go as well.

In my two score years, here's a rundown of "big business" that's no longer, either bought out by competitors or bankrupt:

Pan American Airways
TWA
American Motors
Chrysler
F.W. Woolworth (Woolco)
Digital Equipment Corporation
Montgomery Wards (its generational descendants are Sears, Penney's and Wal-Mart)
Gamble's Hardware
Eastern Airlines
Compaq
Burger Chef
Hardee's (bought by Carl's Jr)
Yellow Freight
Clark Refining
McDonell-Douglas (bought by Boeing)
Parker-Brothers (now owned by Hasbro)


And, of course, there's always the current "darlings", Enron, Kmart, GlobalCrossing, WorldCom, with perhaps UAL to join the crowd.

The simple truth is that the Internet runs a great risk of moving into the realm of "public utility", as it becomes ever more "necessary" for the functioning of our economy and society, in the same fashion as the production and distribution of electricity moved from a purely capitalist model to the current model. Whether or not this is a good thing is a discussion for another day, perhaps even another forum. It is, however, a possible thing. The Internet can "resist" this by virtue of both its social culture and the distributed nature of its infrastructure.

As to the "mom & pop" hardware stores, Las Vegas retail has a dearth of mom&pop anything.

[Keith Outten]

The electrical power company in my state is selling bandwidth from Virginia deep into Pennsylvania right now. They have the equivalent of a National Access Point (NAP) in the basement of their main office in Richmond so they are already in position to bring some major services to the masses.

There are dozens of huge electrical companies that have already established IT subsidiaries just like our states power company. Knowing that these companies have the deepest pockets in this country who in their right mind would invest in wireless technology?

We have been looking at wireless, hoping for a solution that would be affordable, something we could compete with the broadband providers in place today. It doesn't exist people, the costs are way to high and knowing that the power companies are coming makes this option financial suicide.

If I know this you can bet that the large ISP's and providers have the same information and will act accordingly. I would bet that the cable companies and the telephone companies are shaking in their boots! Microsoft knows this as well and you can bet it played a key role in their decision to pull the plug on the EchoStar program.

[John Sanford]

Here's two recent columns regarding the Borg and one man's take on assimilation.

http://money.cnn.com/2003/02/25/commentary/wastler/wastler/index.htm

http://money.cnn.com/2003/02/28/commentary/wastler/wastler/index.htm

Coming as it does from the investment side of things, 'tis a fresh wind blowin'.

[Bob Boake]

Yellow Freight is very much alive and kicking. The most recent large freight line to tank was Consolidated Freightways.

As far as mom & pops goes, it is hard to patronize stores that don't offer pricing, selection and quality. One area where I find that mom & pops are superior is the restaurant business. Fresher ingredients, lower prices, menu variety and better service. The locals can always tell you t he best place to eat in town and its not the nat'l chain.

[John Sanford]

Originally posted by Keith Outten
The electrical power company in my state is selling bandwidth from Virginia deep into Pennsylvania right now. They have the equivalent of a National Access Point (NAP) in the basement of their main office in Richmond so they are already in position to bring some major services to the masses.


Do you know WHY the power company has the equivalent of a NAP in their basement? There's a very good reason why they have it, why they are spending GOBS of money to operate, maintain and upgrade their neo-NAPs, and it has NOTHING to do with taking over the ISP market.

Find out why, and you'll discover that the power companies are not nearly as much of a threat as you appear to think. They do have the resources and opportunity to become players in the market, but not dominant ones.

As any market matures, which is what is happening with the ISP market, a shake out takes place. One either has to carve out a niche or carve up competitors to survive. Mayhap your best long term outlook lies in leading the mergers and acquisitions dance in your market. Who knows, maybe YOU'LL end up owning the power company! (read Chapter 4 of Great Projects: The Epic Story of the Building of America, from the Taming of the Mississippi to the Invention of the Internet by James Tobin, Free Press 2001, ISBN: 0-743-21064-6)

The concern other companies have in jumping into the 'Net is "how do we make a profit?" A LOT of money has been "tossed down the Internet rathole" in pursuit of the profits, which gives rise to the question above, AND to an enhanced reluctance to venture into the murky waters of the 'Net.

[John Sanford]

Originally posted by bob boake
Yellow Freight is very much alive and kicking. The most recent large freight line to tank was Consolidated Freightways.

Sorry, my bad. I knew it was one of the LTL haulers, not Roadway or Viking, for some reason Yellow stuck in my mind.

[Keith Outten]

John,

Did you know that for over three years Bell Labs has been developing the 110 volt modem? There are very large test programs that have been going on over the last twelve months testing modem access over the electrical grid.

I don't really think their intent is to take over an industry, I think it is good business! Every business looks at new markets to add to the services they can provide with the goal of increasing their bottom line. All monopolies are especially interested in any service that has monthly billing invloved.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Well, I went to look at power tools at Otto Duke's in San Antonio last November. They had closed 1 Nov after supplying South Texas with industrial woodworking machinery for over 40 years. I went there several times to look at and maybe buy some heavy duty equipment. They carried a small selection at high prices and you usually had at least a weeks wait. My last atttempt was at an 8" jointer. DJ20-$1499 can have it in two weeks. Delta Industrial jointer-$999 can have it in two weeks, Jet 8" jointer $1299 can have it in two weeks. Went with Grizzly, $760 delivered in 5 days. I'm sorry they're gone, but they just weren't competative in my mind. On the other issue, I had a talk with the manager of the local HD a few weeks ago. I had a real bad experience in his store a week or so before I talked to him, but Katherine made me wait awhile before going to see him. I told him I didn't like having to climb over stock stacked in the aisles to get to things, I didn't like having move four sheets of mdf to get to the oak ply and I didn't like the cashier asking me to lift up a 4X8 sheet of plywood so he could scan it instead of looking up the sku in his book. I also told him there were other place to shop and I'd go there unless things got better in his store. He seemed genuinely intersted in hearing what I had to say, didn't make any excuses and said they'd try hard to keep my business. I guess I'm saying they have to compete for my business. Those who don't measure up won't get my money. I'm not worried about there being only one retailer, because someone else will come along and provide competition. Before Home depot, there was Builder's Square, Before Builders Square, there was Handy Dan, Before Handy Dan, there was Sutherlands, Before Sutherlands, there was Hechingers.

[Mike Vermeil]

Dennis,

For the exact same reasons you listed, I switched from Home Depot to Lowe's. While Lowe's is no bastion of customer service, I think you'll find that they do not stack overflow stock in the aisles (my biggest complaint with HD), and that an "out of stock" condition is very rare. It got so bad with HD that on every trip I made, they were out of 10 - 25% of the things I wanted. Years ago Lowe's was more expensive, but their prices now are the same as HD and other low price alternatives.

Mike

[Tim]

At the borg stores I usually shop (at least two Lowes and three HDs), I have seen consistently superior service at Lowes. Superior to HD of course, so that's not saying much. But there does seem to be at least a mild emphasis on customer service at Lowes that is completely lacking at HD.

Typical experience at HD in the hardware aisle:
I'm looking for item X and there is an employee in the same aisle. I am the only customer in the aisle. Employee takes pains to avoid all eye contact with me. I walk over to the employee to ask a question and they ignore me, often even move in the other direction. Once I speak I get their attention. "Do you know where X is?" I ask. Their reply: "You'll have to ask the person who works here. I think he might be in the next aisle." Employee goes on ignoring me.

Typical experience at Lowes in the hardware aisle:
I'm looking for item X and there is an employee in the same aisle. I am the only customer in the aisle. Employee takes pains to avoid all eye contact with me. I walk over to the employee to ask a question and they actually turn toward me and ask if I need help. "Do you know where X is?" I ask. Their reply: "You'll have to ask the person who works here. I think he might be in the next aisle. Folow me." Employee leads me to the right person and I get the information I need.

Typical experience at my fantastic locally owned True Value hardware store:
I walk in the door and someone asks if I need any help. I say "no" (because I just walked in and need to enjoy the browsing experience first). I get to the hardware aisle and someone asks if I need any help. I say "no" (because I'm a guy and don't ask for help until I know I'm completely at a loss and then some). There are many customers in the store and aisle. Employee comes back 5 minutes later and asks again if I need any help. I say yes and ask for X. He shows me where it is, but also asks what I am doing with it and offers other suggestions as well. He then asks if I need help finding anything else in the store. I say yes and ask for Y. He says "aisle 12 about halfway down on your left". I go there and he's exactly right. Doesn't matter if he was wrong anyway because two other employees asked if I needed help on my way over. I have zero personal relationships with anyone there and nobody there knows my name. This is their standard level of service. I go there first for most things and they get my business whenever the cost differences are less than dramatic.

[John Sanford]

Originally posted by Keith Outten
John,

Did you know that for over three years Bell Labs has been developing the 110 volt modem? There are very large test programs that have been going on over the last twelve months testing modem access over the electrical grid.

I don't really think their intent is to take over an industry, I think it is good business! Every business looks at new markets to add to the services they can provide with the goal of increasing their bottom line. All monopolies are especially interested in any service that has monthly billing invloved.

Two different takes on the PLC future:

http://www.primen.com/about/pr_powerlines.asp

http://www.computeruser.com/news/03/02/27/news4.html


Like many things in the tech realm, it will be interesting to see how it plays out....

[Keith Outten]

John,

Thanks for providing the links, I visited and read both articles however there isn't anything new there. I understand that there are technical difficulties to overcome, that is nothing new to the electrical industry. As I said previously I worked for an electrical company for years as a construction engineer, when the company wanted something done we were told to find a way and they didn't care what the costs were. As I said their pockets are deeper than the Atlantic ocean.

The rewards are far more attractive than most people realize, why would a manufacturer of a heat pump or toaster install IP chips in their products? The ability to diagnose, repair or just turn an appliance on and off is very attractive. Could you plug your car into an outlet and have the auto manufacturer run diagnostic tests on it from your own driveway?

If the electrical companys can't use the existing grid they will deploy fiber right to the house, something only they can afford to do as this is a race they will not loose no matter what the cost.
Dominion Power has more miles of fiber optic cable in place right now than Verizon, they have used fiber optic cable to control their grid for over twenty years.

[John Sanford]

Keith,

I guess our experiences with power companies out this way are somewhat different than yours. I've discussed this with a friend of mine, (he works network admin for the power company's load management/grid monitoring system here.) Here's his take on one of the articles.


I read the article and then went to the technology developers web site,
http://www.powerline-plc.com/index.htm, and at a top seed of 14 megabits,
equal to 9.33 T1's this is not a lot of bandwidth. Most cable companies
have a 10 megabit or 6.66 T1's worth of backbone servicing a single
neighborhood then split to 100 megabit for an area back to there main
building with an average throughputs of 76 kilobits to a single house and
burst or 3 megabits. The power companies would need to have at any given
substation home runs back to the main center to provide the bandwidth need
to compete. Nevada power has a fiber ring going to any new substation built
after 1985, this still leaves a good amount of building needed. Most power
utilities are in a similar position so for them to take over, and given that
the phone and cable companies have already done large amount of building,
and with most PUC not letting power company's spend money on retrofitting
older substations it will be hard for them to compete any time soon.