Pocket Screw Question

[Art Davis]

I am making a couple of small cabinets using face frames with pocket screws. I have the Kreg "Pocket Rocket" jig, and things worked nicely with the screws they provided.

I ran out, so picked up a supply at Lowes. The box was marked for the Kreg jig and the screws were 1 1/4 inch long---just like the originals.

The problem is that the new ones have a round skirt on the head which keeps the screws from holding tightly when I try to tighten them, they just spin loosely.

Any ideas as to what's wrong, why those danged skirts, and the name of a good source for the "real thing?" (And I don't mean Coke!)

Thanks a lot.

Art

[Greg Cuetara]

Art,
I think kreg has two head styles. One is the maxi-head and the other is the pan head. I have always had problems with the pan head screws but have had great luck with the maxi-head screws. Check to see if you got the same head style. Was the box you bought from Kreg? I know you can pick up the real mccoy from woodcraft or rockler. There are also great sources online for screws. I think Mcfeely's is one.
Greg

[Andy McCormick]

I use 1000's of pan head screws all the time. It sounds like to me that you need to set your clutch on your drill not to tighten them so tight.

[Peter Quinn]

I use the washer head screws in every application possible and use the pan heads (the smaller head without the washer skirt thingy) only in material 1/2" to 5/8" where washer heads will not sink below the surface. Haven't had a problem yet. 1 1/4" is the correct size for 3/4" face frames, do you have the correct thread pitch for the wood you are using? Typically you use course for plywood, poplar and soft woods like pine, fine thread for most hardwoods. Fine thread screws in soft wood are likely to spin as you describe, and course threads in hardwood don't work so well either. They also make Hi-lo threads which are meant to be multi purpose, but like most things multi purpose do neither as well as the correct item.

I use Kreg brand screws which I buy locally, they are widely available on the internet, from Amazon for instance.

[Kevin Godshall]

+1 for McFeeley's, especially their brand of pocket hole screws.

I would echo the caution on overtightening. By nature of the screw, you can over-torque any style and have the same result (washer or not). Get a feel for how tight to make them by hand tightening a few (maybe in some scrap wood of same species). Tight is tight. Overtight is loose.

[Ken Higginbotham]

I'm at a loss as to what you mean when you say they spin loosely - ? Sounds like the hole is stripped out - ?

[Lee Schierer]

I'm at a loss as to what you mean when you say they spin loosely - ? Sounds like the hole is stripped out - ?

That was my thought as well. Check the threads between the old and new screws to see if they are the same.

It might also be that the washer head on the new screws is too large to fit into the hole drilled by the Kreg drill so the threads never get far enough into the hole to bite into the wood. The Kreg drill is .375 diameter, check the head of your new screws to see if it is larger than that.

[Ken Higginbotham]

...It might also be that the washer head on the new screws is too large to fit into the hole drilled by the Kreg drill so the threads never get far enough into the hole to bite into the wood. The Kreg drill is .375 diameter, check the head of your new screws to see if it is larger than that.

Bingo. That makes sense.

[Art Davis]

That was my thought as well. Check the threads between the old and new screws to see if they are the same.

It might also be that the washer head on the new screws is too large to fit into the hole drilled by the Kreg drill so the threads never get far enough into the hole to bite into the wood. The Kreg drill is .375 diameter, check the head of your new screws to see if it is larger than that.

Yeah, that seems to be the problem. The washer head was a bit too large for the pocket hole, but I drove it in anyway---then couldn't get a tight fit.

Good suggestions about the clutch setting, but I was using the same settings for the original screws.

I downloaded a screw chart from Kreg. The "washer head" is what they call the Maxi-Loc and say "the large bearing surface of the washer head is designed to seat securely---." They call the other head a "pan head," and say it is for joining 1/2 inche material.

My jig originally came with the pan heads and it was the Maxi-Loc's that I replaced them with. Both are fine thread, though I am working now with poplar. I had previously used the pan heads with pine and then with poplar and both did okay---though Kreg says that the course thread versions are preferred for softer stuff.

I am using the stepped drill that originally came with the Kreg jig, so I would have supposed that the screws (the new ones were Kreg also) should have worked.

So I am still confused. Why won't the Kreg screws work with the Kreg drill?

Another issue: when I went shopping on Amazon.com, they carry all the types Kreg's or McFeely's do, but I see designations like Nos. 2, 6, 7, and 8 etc---in addition to specs saying 1 1/4 inch fine or course thread, etc.

I would have thought that a pocket hole screw to work with the Kreg jig would have a standard shank diameter.

Can anyone help on these issues?

Thanks a lot.

Art

[Ken Higginbotham]

I think it's a simple as the screw heads are too large to go into the pilot hole counter sink recess the drill/jig made. Just get some pan head screws with a smaller head...

[Art Davis]

I think it's a simple as the screw heads are too large to go into the pilot hole counter sink recess the drill/jig made. Just get some pan head screws with a smaller head...

Yep, that's what I will do. But I am really curious as to why they would sell screws that don't fit!?

[Prashun Patel]

It could also be that you're not drilling your pilot hole deep enough. If the pilot's too shallow, the head will bottom out before going below flush w the surface, and then you might spin it out trying to get it to go further.

Also, are you using fine-thread screws? They can spin out in softer woods too.

[Ken Higginbotham]

Yep, that's what I will do. But I am really curious as to why they would sell screws that don't fit!?

I'm guessing they make two different size drills and the people at Lowe's don't know which screw size they are supposed to carry as replacements to jig model they sell - :confused:

[Art Davis]

It could also be that you're not drilling your pilot hole deep enough. If the pilot's too shallow, the head will bottom out before going below flush w the surface, and then you might spin it out trying to get it to go further.

Also, are you using fine-thread screws? They can spin out in softer woods too.


Yes, I was using the fine thread. You have two good points. My son-in-law, who has a fair amount of experience with pocket hole construction just walked in and told me the same thing: the fine threads aren't gripping and the course ones do better.

[Andy Pratt]

I'm very surprised by this, as I use the larger versions (washer head?) all the time and they fit easily into the hole drilled by the kreg drill bit. The gap between the head and the drill hole wall is small, of course, but it's never once caused a problem. If both the drill bit and screws are kreg-brand screws then I'm not sure how this could happen.

The only other possibility I can think of is that if the screw isn't right in the pilot hole at the bottom of the stepped hole it could be going in off center, then it would catch the sides, but I'm sure you're checking for this as you do it. It is easier to mess up at the weird angle this works at.

One final thought: If you're not using a 6" long drive bit for this, most drills can't be used at the correct angle to the hole, you won't be driving it in in line with the pilot hole, and your screw head will hit the hole wall (outside edge) and either spin on it or pull through and damage it every time. I've tried using a 3" drive bit and it just never works that well. If you're not already using a 6" bit, this could certainly be the problem.

Hope this helps,
Andy

[Peter Quinn]

I'm guessing they make two different size drills and the people at Lowe's don't know which screw size they are supposed to carry as replacements to jig model they sell - :confused:

Kreg makes only one drill size, and all Kreg screws fit that drill. Very simple system on purpose. Can't think of what might be going wrong but I'd guess the screw diameter isn't it. The #7 vrs #8 issue is probably more of an Amazon misprint, for which they are famous, and not relevant or something to be generally concerned with. I think the 1" panheads are in fact #7 screws, but most others I have are #8's, and it doesn't change much anyway.

I'm still going with wrong screw pitch, wrong drill depth, or too much frill torque as most likely candidates for the cause of the problem.

[Art Davis]

Kreg makes only one drill size, and all Kreg screws fit that drill. Very simple system on purpose. Can't think of what might be going wrong but I'd guess the screw diameter isn't it. The #7 vrs #8 issue is probably more of an Amazon misprint, for which they are famous, and not relevant or something to be generally concerned with. I think the 1" panheads are in fact #7 screws, but most others I have are #8's, and it doesn't change much anyway.

I'm still going with wrong screw pitch, wrong drill depth, or too much frill torque as most likely candidates for the cause of the problem.


Thanks Peter,

After some experimentation, I think you are quite right: it's the screw pitch primarily. And I think I was wrong it saying that the skirt on the washer head didn't fit. As several folks have pointed out, it's just tight tolerance and probably I was looking for a reason too hard.

Appreciate your clarifying the size issue.

Art

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Shawn hit on what I was thinking that it's not the head but it's the threads. You didn't mention if you are using coarse or fine threads. Use coarse on plywoods and softwoods and fine threads for hard-hardwoods (I.E. not poplar).

There's no science to setting your clutch. Keep reducing clutch until it engages just when screw is barely tight. You do not have to over tighten.

[John Lucas]

One iother thng to try is to use the battery drill until just seated and then use a hand scredriver and tighten. You can watch where the washer head goes and not overtighten.

[glenn bradley]

I use the washer head screws in every application possible and use the pan heads (the smaller head without the washer skirt thingy) only in material 1/2" to 5/8" where washer heads will not sink below the surface. Haven't had a problem yet. 1 1/4" is the correct size for 3/4" face frames, do you have the correct thread pitch for the wood you are using? Typically you use course for plywood, poplar and soft woods like pine, fine thread for most hardwoods. Fine thread screws in soft wood are likely to spin as you describe, and course threads in hardwood don't work so well either. They also make Hi-lo threads which are meant to be multi purpose, but like most things multi purpose do neither as well as the correct item.

I use Kreg brand screws which I buy locally, they are widely available on the internet, from Amazon for instance.

I'm with Peter; coarse and fine thread as appropriate, washer heads except for thin stock. I use mostly McFeelys screws. The Kregs are fine as well but McF's has had some sales and specials that have worked out for me. I'm not sure I understand the "spinning" thing. Do you mean they strip out?

[Paul Demetropoulos]

Last time I bought pocket screws I got them a Sommerfeld Tools, they sell the Maxi-Lock. Since I bought a bulk quantity a haven't compared their prices recently, but at the time they were the cheapest for a name brand screw.

[Art Davis]

I'm with Peter; coarse and fine thread as appropriate, washer heads except for thin stock. I use mostly McFeelys screws. The Kregs are fine as well but McF's has had some sales and specials that have worked out for me. I'm not sure I understand the "spinning" thing. Do you mean they strip out?


Yep,

I think they are stripping out. In other words, when I drive them as far as I think they should go, they continue to spin. So I think the only thing that could be happening is stripout.

I do think it is the fine thread versus the course thread thing. I am going to try course and see what happens.