Woodworkers Journal Scam . . .?

[Steven DeMars]

Has anybody else received unsolicited, the first of a series called The Complete Woodworking Video Collection?

This is the way it works, they send it and tell you IF YOU DO NOT WANT IT, just return it . . . .or discard it . . . I discarded it . .

Well I don't want it and I don't think I should be responsible to get it back to them.

Now for the best part, they send a dunning letter every month they call a reminder telling you to send money or send it back. Well the first letter that came with the DVD said either send it back or discard it . . . Well I looked at it, it was what I did not feel was worthwhile info, so I threw it away as they said I could. Now I am being inundated with reminders . . . .

Time Warner has some really good CD's with the oldies, and this is exactly why I won't buy them . . . They never stop sending crap to you . . .:mad:

I guess that is my punishment for being stupid enough to subscribe to WOODWORKERS JOURNAL MAGAZINE . . . . I like the magazine, but their business office sucks big time . . . I probably will not renew . . . I'm paid up through 2010, but I get a letter telling me I need to renew at least once a month . . .

[Greg Pavlov]

Has anybody else received unsolicited, the first of a series called The Complete Woodworking Video Collection?

This is the way it works, they send it and tell you IF YOU DO NOT WANT IT, just return it . . . .or discard it . . . I discarded it . . . . . .
If it was unsolicited you definitely don't have to pay for it, you don't have to return it and you don't have to throw it away.

[Greg Hines, MD]

I got that DVD in the mail yesterday. My current plan is to mail it back to them in their prepaid envelope. I don't play that game.

I suppose I could just keep it, but I really do not need any more DVDs of any stripe.

Doc

[David G Baker]

I have not received any literature or video tape on the Woodworking Video Collection.
When I receive unsolicited items, then get a bill for it, I write back and inform them that I didn't order the item, didn't want the item and I do not want them to bill me again or I will contact my attorney. I never hear from them again.
When dealing with Time Life items, I send them back unopened. Do that a few times and they get the message when they have to pay the postage.

[Mike Langford]

I sent mine back in the pre-paid envelope they sent......

....I documented the return with pics! (I may still have the original letter here some place too!.....)
I underlined "Please send no further DVDs" on the return card.

I haven't got anything from them since - I returned the DVD on 01/01/09
109518

[Tom Veatch]

Has anybody else received unsolicited, the first of a series called The Complete Woodworking Video Collection?... .

Unless there has been some change over the last several years, anything you receive in the mail, unsolicited, belongs to you. I suppose the "honorable" thing to do would be to return it if they provide prepaid return packaging, but there's no requirement to do so. It's an unnecessary inconvenience and imposition that you do not have to accept.

What to do about the dunning letters? You could fast track them to the land fill, you could sit down and write the company a reasonable and courteous response detailing your position on the situation which would likely be ignored by the office drones, or you could do what I've been known to do in similar circumstances: when you find one in the mailbox, write "Delivery refused, return to sender" on the envelope and drop it back in the mailbox unopened. Don't know what effect that has back in the office, but I've never had another one show up after doing that.

[Randal Stevenson]

See post number 13 by Lee Schierer - McKean, PA in this thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=93737

If you do nothing, you may or may not get more junk from them. If you respond (returning dvd), they may sell your name as someone who responds. But his solution is classic.

[Bill Keehn]

I got one of those a few months ago, from WWGOA. It said I could keep it as a free gift, so I did. I got a follow up letter last week. I'd hardly call it dunning, since it was pretty clear that I was under no obligation. They are just marketing their product with a free sample and a followup. Even though it was not requested, it was pretty good, so I don't see any harm.

George Vondriska, the guy in the video, has written numerous articles for the magazines and has become a fairly well known figure in woodworking. I believe WWGOA is pretty much his brainchild. I seriously doubt he intends to scam anybody and tarnish his reputation. WWGOA does seem like a shoestring startup though, and I'm pretty sure the video I received is the only one produced so far. I'm sure he's trying to use the first video to raise capital for producing further videos.

I hope it works. I think if he's smart he'll drop that overly agressive "book of the month club" strategy. If the videos are good people will seek them out and buy them. I know I will. As for the free gift, I think they give people a chance to return it since some will be too paranoid or suspicious to keep it or throw it away. I'm sure it goes straight into the trash once they get it back, or into another mailer. ;)

[Steven DeMars]

I got one of those a few months ago, from WWGOA. It said I could keep it as a free gift, so I did. I got a follow up letter last week. I'd hardly call it dunning, since it was pretty clear that I was under no obligation. They are just marketing their product with a free sample and a followup. Even though it was not requested, it was pretty good, so I don't see any harm.

George Vondriska, the guy in the video, has written numerous articles for the magazines and has become a fairly well known figure in woodworking. I believe WWGOA is pretty much his brainchild. I seriously doubt he intends to scam anybody and tarnish his reputation. WWGOA does seem like a shoestring startup though, and I'm pretty sure the video I received is the only one produced so far. I'm sure he's trying to use the first video to raise capital for producing further videos.

I hope it works. I think if he's smart he'll drop that overly agressive "book of the month club" strategy. If the videos are good people will seek them out and buy them. I know I will. As for the free gift, I think they give people a chance to return it since some will be too paranoid or suspicious to keep it or throw it away. I'm sure it goes straight into the trash once they get it back, or into another mailer. ;)

I think it's the "Book of the Month Club" thing that irritated me . . . I actually like the magazine . . .

P.S. Please move this thread out of here . . . .

[george wilson]

You are probably writing those letters to a computer. No obligation to pay for any stuff you didn't ask for. Time Warner is not a group I want anything to do with,or ANY book of the month outfit. They will hound you to death.

[Paul Johnstone]

I kept the DVD, watched it, and then threw it in the trash. It was mainly introductory material, would be great for someone just starting out, but probably 95% of this forum would not learn anything new.

I didn't send it back, because I don't want to encourage this type of marketing. Also, I don't want them to know that they have a "live" person at this address. As someone else said, if you respond or acknowledge this in any way, you are opening yourself up to more spam. There is a loophole in the no call list that says if you do business with someone, they can telemarket you. Therefore, I'm not giving them any kind of excuse. I don't know if that is their aim or not, but I feel it is best to just ignore this.

As far as being honorable, they are the ones that spammed thousands of people with a DVD they didn't ask for in hopes of collecting a few bucks. If you return the DVD, it's going to be mailed to someone else that didn't ask for it.

[David Keller NC]

If you really want to discourage this sort of behavior, take the business reply mailer, and stuff it with anything you can find that's heavy. The business involved has to pay for the "business reply" mailing based on its weight.

I can't find the site now, but one individual got so fed up with MCI sending things like this that he shipped them an old tire - that was what it took to get him off of the mailing list.

[Chris Padilla]

See post number 13 by Lee Schierer - McKean, PA in this thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=93737

If you do nothing, you may or may not get more junk from them. If you respond (returning dvd), they may sell your name as someone who responds. But his solution is classic.

Here is the link Lee and David above referred to. Very funny: http://www.vertical-visions.com/_temp/postagepaid/index2.html

[Paul Atkins]

I was going to say, fill that envelope with AOL cd's.

[Lee Schierer]

Here is the link Lee and David above referred to. Very funny: http://www.vertical-visions.com/_temp/postagepaid/index2.html

Just to clarify, I have used this method only to the extent that I sent all the literature, envelope etc back to the company via their postage paid envelope. It gets your name off their mailing list pretty quickly. I don't advocate sending bricks or old tires to companies. They'll get the point with just their envelope full of stuff. Or write "REFUSED" in big letters across the mailing adress and drop it in a mail box, that way you don't even have to open it.

[Pat Germain]

I didn't receive a DVD, but a book with the same strategy. It's sitting on my dining room table. My take is I didn't order it, so I'm keeping it. My wife wants me to send it back or pay for it. So there it sits.

[Pat Germain]

Here is the link Lee and David above referred to. Very funny: http://www.vertical-visions.com/_temp/postagepaid/index2.html

I'll repeat what I've said before about such "revenge". The post office will look at a pre-paid postage envelope attached to a large item and just throw the whole thing away.

Furthermore, in the situation in the link posted above, it's possible that guy could have been fined. Tires are controlled items. You can't just throw them away. That's why you're somtimes charged a "disposal fee" when you get new tires.

I agree it would be fun to seek such revenge. But in this case, I think it's all in futility. :)

[Jim Solomon]

I have not received any literature or video tape on the Woodworking Video Collection.
When I receive unsolicited items, then get a bill for it, I write back and inform them that I didn't order the item, didn't want the item and I do not want them to bill me again or I will contact my attorney. I never hear from them again.
When dealing with Time Life items, I send them back unopened. Do that a few times and they get the message when they have to pay the postage.
Instead of telling them you will contact "your attorney" try telling them you will contact the Attorney General in your state and theirs. My wife has worked for a law firm for 28 yrs. and asked her boss about this out of curiosity and that is what he recommended, by the way I did and have not received any further requests from them:) Ofcourse you can aslo add your attorney also as David stated, for those people the more the merrier:)

[Roger Bell]

It didn't surprise me at all to get the DVD. This type of marketing is not unique to woodworking. And it surprised me even less to get the followup letters, considering that WWJ is owned by Rockler.

I recall my very first experience with Rockler about fifteen years ago when they were known as the Woodworker's Store. They sent me the wrong product entirely (their fault). When I returned it for exchange for the right product, they didn't have the right product. So, they "credited" me in Rockler-bucks or some ridiculous substitute for cash-back. And they refused to refund my money as anyone else would have done.

As you can see, I haven't forgotten that.

So I kept the DVD and ignored the followup letters as I would with any other kind of marketing spam.

And then there was the notorious "50% off any one item sale excluding power tools" (I forget the details), offered on the internet about 4-5 years ago. Naturally, customers put in order for Leigh jigs, etc. and other pricey items other than power tools in the belief that the offer was made in good faith. Once it dawned on them that Leigh jigs, etc. were in fact "not power tools" and well.........Rockler refused to honor their offer as stated and the internet WW community was furious. The Boards were buzzing. Ann Rockler, the CEO, registered up on one of the Boards and, in a perhaps a single lifetime post, replied and offered an apology. They are more careful now in their fine print. But they still refused to honor their offer, as I recall.

Do I still go to Rockler?.....sure. But my memory isn't that bad....yet.

[David G Baker]

Jim S
I reserve the mention of the State Attorney Generals Office when I really get irritated, then I really do contact their office.

[Michael Gibbons]

If I get something suspect, I write with black markers over my name and address and then write "return to sender" and pop it in the mail. Also why are there limitations to sales? Like Woodcrafts "excluding Sawstop, Leigh jigs, power tools and such on their sale days? Are they price fixed? some back alley deals? If they can give 10% off of a bowl gouge then they can give 10% off of a Sawstop.

[Pat Germain]

If they can give 10% off of a bowl gouge then they can give 10% off of a Sawstop.

Actually, retailers typically can't discount power tools because the margin is pretty thin as it is. Markups on accessories and hand tools, like a bowl gouge, have a much higher markup. So, they can discount that stuff and still make money.

Although, I do get pretty anoyed with the "20% Off Everything in the Store!" (Excludes power tools.) :rolleyes:

[Randal Stevenson]

If I get something suspect, I write with black markers over my name and address and then write "return to sender" and pop it in the mail. Also why are there limitations to sales? Like Woodcrafts "excluding Sawstop, Leigh jigs, power tools and such on their sale days? Are they price fixed?

Price fixing is illegal. Just an example, IF Walmart, and a competitor, like Target, or Sears, etc. decided they would all not sell xyz, for less then $20.00, that is illegal and called price fixing.

Price restrictions, are legal. Those are when the manufacturer, requires that its distributors, not sell below a certain price point. Sawstop is an example of this, and if they do with a coupon, then they lose the right to distribute, and can be subject to other contracted restrictions (fines, legal fee's, etc).

[Bill Keehn]

Price fixing is illegal. Just an example, IF Walmart, and a competitor, like Target, or Sears, etc. decided they would all not sell xyz, for less then $20.00, that is illegal and called price fixing.

Price restrictions, are legal. Those are when the manufacturer, requires that its distributors, not sell below a certain price point. Sawstop is an example of this, and if they do with a coupon, then they lose the right to distribute, and can be subject to other contracted restrictions (fines, legal fee's, etc).

It is only price fixing if there is an agreement between competitors, explicit or implied, secret or otherwise.

What you call a pricing restriction is known as retail price fixing. Companies engaging in this practice could be found guilty of price fixing until this was overturned by the Supreme court last August. Now manufacturers such as Sawstop can withhold product from their retailers that do not comply with their minimum pricing without fear of prosecution. IMHO, it seems to me they were on thin ice prior to that.

[Myk Rian]

I got a DVD from Woodworkers Guild of America. I copied it, put the copy in the DVD case, and kept that. Sent the original back to them in the pre-paid envelope.

[Jim Russell]

I received an unsolicited dvd from the Woodworker's Journal, and immediately called them (I do not subscribe to the magazine). The receptionist I spoke with was polite and courteous. She informed me that it was a promotion, and I could keep the dvd and I was under no further obligation. I watched the "free" dvd, and found it informative and professional.
So where's the scam? If you contacted the WJ office and wasn't happy with your conversation, possibly you presented yourself too aggressively. I've have now dealt with the WJ staff, and I have read your posting. In the future, I will not hesitate to deal with them!

[Ben Franz]

This is probably the 5th or 6th thread on this topic this year. Bottom line - nobody has an obligation to pay for unsolicited goods mailed to them. Companies will continue to use this tactic as long as the return rate is profitable enough. We can discourage them by opting out, cancelling subscriptions, ignoring bills, etc. That's the primary reason I'm no longer a WWJ subscriber, although the lame content of the magazine (IMHO) was also a factor. Apparently, they are devastated by my decision, judging by the number of renewal lapse notices I've received. I'll try to cope with the guilt.

[Fred Voorhees]

I recieved the same DVD about a month and a half or two ago. It was clearly stated that I didn't need to return it and was under no obligation to do anything further than to watch it if I was interested. I watched and like others have said, it was all pretty basic stuff. I still have it around here and I haven't recieved any follow up stuff looking for payment.

[Eric Larsen]

Being the snarky so-and-so that I am, I would keep the DVD, and send a schlocky DVD* back, with a note saying, "I thought you might like this DVD. Please send me $39.95 (in nickles) for the DVD, or return it."


* Like anything starring Steven Seagal.

[Joel Goodman]

I have heard of attaching the prepaid envelope to a box with a brick in it -- is this just an urban legend? I've always wanted to do it.

Can anyone explain why junk mail that no one wants is billed at a lower rate then letters that we send to each other? Oh yeah -- we don't hire lobbyists!

[Eric Larsen]

This is the way it works, they send it and tell you IF YOU DO NOT WANT IT, just return it . . . .or discard it . . . I discarded it . .

Well I don't want it and I don't think I should be responsible to get it back to them.


Well, well....

I just received this in the mail, along with a Rockler catalog. Coincidence?


The fine print in the letter clearly says that we are under no obligation whatsoever to return the DVD if we don't want to pay for it.

It also says something to the effect of, "But if you would like some other woodworker to enjoy this fine DVD, send it back."



I have half a mind to make good on my idea to send them a crappy movie from my DVD collection to them, along with a bill.

"Dear Woodworker's Guild,

Thank you so much for you kind invitation to preview your woodworking DVD. I didn't like it, and I'm using the disc as a beer coaster.

But I've decided to let you take part in an even more exciting offer!

I have sent you a copy of the action thriller 'Executive Decision,' starring Kurt Russell and Steven Seagall. This is an excellent way to expand your DVD collection with movies that I received as gifts, and will never watch again.

You are free to discard this movie, send it back in the enclosed S.A.S.E., or keep it. If you decide to keep the movie, I will bill you $19.95 (payable only in nickles) and send you other movies that I can't stand. You can remain a member as long as you like, so long as you keep sending me 10 rolls of nickles (minus one nickle) every two or three months.

Don't delay, because I have copies of Windtalkers, the Spongebob movie, and Scooby Doo that I'm dying to be rid of.

Thank you, and keep in mind, the fact that you opened this letter constitutes acceptance of my terms (in a very real and legally-binding way).

Warmest regards,

Eric Larsen

PS -- As a special bonus, if you pay for the movie, I will send you a copy of Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull. It doesn't get much worse than that."

[Brian Ashton]

Here is the link Lee and David above referred to. Very funny: http://www.vertical-visions.com/_temp/postagepaid/index2.html

Tire! I would have sent rocks. Or even better all the used kitty litter I get every month from the two flee bags that inhabit my house