Sharpining system

[Dave Bureau]

I an in need of a sharpining system and was thinking about the Tormek. Any thoughts on this system? thoughts on other systems?
Thanks
Dave

[David Christopher]

Dave, I bought the jet but I got the tormek accessories to go with it.... the jet machine seems to work the same as the tormek IMO but the accessories especially the gouge jig are superior by tormek....BTW all accessories are enterchangable......Ive been happy with mine and would buy again...

[Gordon Seto]

The current issue of Woodturning Design Magazine comes with a Tormek DVD. It has all the details about using the Tormek for turning tools. Tormek also has extremely good manual and instruction.

[Dave Bureau]

Thanks, I'll have to check that out. What are the differences between the Jet and tormek?

[David Christopher]

Thanks, I'll have to check that out. What are the differences between the Jet and tormek?


The accessories and the price

[Chris Haas]

i have the tormek, and it is great for putting that razor edge on anything, but for my gouges i just use the wolverine system because its so quick, plus its always good to have a grinder around in case you want to change the grind on a gouge as teh tormek will take you all day to remove any real steel.

the difference between jet and the tormek, ive heard that the jets gears are plastic vice the tormeks are metal. basically the jet is the same machine except not as beefy. if you dont have a wolverine yet, i would start with that, the tormek will give you an unbeatable edge though. i have the sharpest chisels on the jobsite, and my grandmother gives me all her kitchen knives to sharpen bimonthly.

[Rich Boehlke]

I don't clam to be an expert but I just attended the Desert Woodturning Roundup symposium. Every one of the demonstrators had a Wolverine system available to sharpen their tools. These are professional turners and if they all use the Wolverine system, there must be a reason. Based on that, I bought one for myself.

[Jim Becker]

My preference for turning tools is a standard 8"x1" grinder with the Wolverine system. Fast, cost effective and versatile. I'm not saying that the Tormek isn't a good system...it is very good. But I sharpen very frequently as I turn and the combination I use meets my needs very well.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I have a Tormek and love it. IMHO it puts a sharper and longer lasting edge on my turning tools. I am not a production turner so if it takes a few seconds more to sharpen a tool no big deal. I do have the grinder with the wolverine jig but just use it now to maybe reshape a gouge with another grind. With the Tormek I can sharpen any tool in the house or shop. The LOML likes it especially when I can now sharpen her craft scissors and she doesn't have to buy anymore when the old ones get dull. Was cheaper to buy new ones than to have the local guy resharpen them. A friend of mine had the Jet and when sharpening it stalled at times. He took it back and bought the Tormek.

[Gordon Seto]

i have the tormek, and it is great for putting that razor edge on anything, but for my gouges i just use the wolverine system because its so quick, plus its always good to have a grinder around in case you want to change the grind on a gouge as teh tormek will take you all day to remove any real steel.



Tormek is slow in shaping the tool the first time. Shaping a Thompson skew is painfully slow. But that has to be done once, unless the tool has been dropped point end first. If you need to change the grind often, IMO it is better to get an extra gouge. Changing a grind may cost you more expensive tool steel than 50 sharpening on wet grinder. With the TTS-100 jig setter, refreshing an edge on Tormek as fast and easy as Varigrind. Setting the distance is faster and more accurate than setting the sliding arm of Wolverine. I abandoned Tormek and went back to Varigrind. I am back to Tormek after discovering the TTS-100. This TTS-100 jig setter is a new accessory. Watch the free DVD if you have a chance.
Here is a simiplied version on You Tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M41TQbnnDYs
With the cost of good tool steel, I don't want a grinder that would remove more steel than it absolutely has to.

[David Walser]

I don't clam to be an expert but I just attended the Desert Woodturning Roundup symposium. Every one of the demonstrators had a Wolverine system available to sharpen their tools. These are professional turners and if they all use the Wolverine system, there must be a reason. Based on that, I bought one for myself.

Rich,

You shouldn't take the fact every demonstrator had a Wolverine system at the DWR as an endorsement of that system. Club members donated the use of their grinders and Wolverine systems for the symposium -- we didn't give the demonstrators a choice. Faith promoting rumor is that some of the demonstrators, such as Nick Cook, use a Tormek to sharpen their tools in their home shop.

The message, if there is one, is that the Wolverine and slow grinder is the "standard" that everyone seems to know how to use. If you're going to travel around the country demonstrating, you'll need to know how to sharpen by hand on a dry grinder or how to use the Wolverine. Like Microsoft Windows, Wolverine is the standard everyone must know. That doesn't mean it's the best. (It doesn't mean it's not, either.)

[Dewey Torres]

Bottom line... the Tormek is a pricey machine and high quality. If it is worth it to you and you have the money...get it.

[David Walser]

Thanks, I'll have to check that out. What are the differences between the Jet and tormek?

Dave,

There are some good reviews on the net that compare the Tormek and Jet. One of the early reviews was very high on the Jet and gave it the nod in a close call over the Tormek. The folks at Tormek feel fairly strongly that the review is unfair (whether intentional or not) because the author compared a new Jet with his used Tormek. Some of the features he down graded the Tormek on had already been upgraded on new Tormeks. (For example, he lauded Jet's use of a DVD to teach you how to use the machine and complained that the Tormek only came with a printed manual. Tormeks were then shipping with both a printed manual and a DVD, something the review did not state.) Another issue with the review is that the reviewer timed how long it took to sharpen a tool using each machine. He found the Jet was slightly faster. That shouldn't surprise anyone -- the Jet had a new 10" wheel while the (used) Tormek's wheel had worn down to about 8". At the same RPM, a 10" wheel will remove material more quickly than an 8" wheel. (Duh!)

Most of the more recent reviews give the nod to the Tormek, but it's typically a close call. Users report that the Jet's wheel wears more quickly than does the Tormek's wheel. Early units of the Jet had some quality control issues, but that seems to have been taken care of. One possible advantage of the Jet is that it has a variable speed drive that allows the user to compensate for the decreasing diameter of the wheel as it wears away. While that feature might be nice, it added complexity to the design that was the source of the early quality issues.

The Jet sometimes comes with a benchtop base that contains a drawer for storing jigs and supplies. It's also supposed to give the machine a wider stance and increase its stability. Don't place too much value on that accessory. First, the machine is fairly stable without the wider base. Second, by design, you'll pick up the machine and turn it 180 degrees fairly often. (You sharpen some tools from the "front" of the machine and others from the "back", so you'll want to turn the machine to have the correct side facing you.) Picking up the machine with the accessory base attached requires lifting more weight while lifting the machine without the base attached requires you to turn both base and machine and to then carefully place the machine on its base. Neither approach is optimal.

Hope this helps. If you'd like to know more, join the Yahoo! Tormek users group and do a search. The merits of the two machines have been debated at length.

[Gordon Seto]

David,
I am on Tormek now. It seems that I am unlikely for shopping for another wet grinder soon. I don't think I will be interested in joining the Yahoo Tormek Group. I believe the DVD has let me know all I need to know about how to use the system.
Just curious, Tormek claims the finer polished edge lasts longer. Has anyone done any experiments to show some comparative numbers? I am happy with the result, but just don't want to swallow what the advertising says.

[Jeff Farris]

Gordon,

Here's a PDF reprint from the UK's "Woodturning" magazine. The article is written by Robbie Farrance and includes some very interesting micro-photography and results from some side-by-side tests.

Farrance Article (http://www.tormek.com/en/leaflet/pdf/wet_or_dry_en.pdf)

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I got the Tormek, and I'm happy. I do not turn for money, so speed is not a concern. As fas as initial investment, the grinder/jigs are cheaper but not by a lot. 100 bucks for a slow speed grinder of reputable quality, need to buy "good" wheel(s) 40, Wolverine 150, skew jig 75, upgrade your tool rest on the grinder 50. More "little" things that add up. Dresser etc.
Plus, I can bring the Tormek in the house, and watch TV and sharpen the tools watching TV. No wasted time there.
The biggest advantage in my mind is, I can sharpen the bosses' knives. Keeps her happy! She complains when they get the least bit dull now. Can't sharpen knives on a grinder. Well, I guess you can.......

[Reed Gray]

Some time, I may have to try a Tormek on my turning tools. I do have one, but it is almost never used. Wore the wheel down way too fast. For me, it seems too slow for my turning needs, and the wheel needed too much dressing. I may be a bit heavy handed. For sharpening a lot of other things, it is great. I would be surprised if the edges gotten from it would last any longer than one from a standard slow speed grinder. I really haven't 'put it to the test'. A working edge is different from a fresh edge, which dulls fairly quickly, but will still remove a lot of wood. The coarse wheel, without being dressed (220 grit I believe) is much finer than the standard wheels (60 to 120) on a slow speed grinder. This fine of a wheel is more suited for fine cutting tools like bench chisels, plane irons, kitchen knives, and scissors.

I have 80 and 150 grit wheels on my slow speed grinder. I had a 320 for a while, and it did a good job, but don't really see or feel any difference, except the 150 grit wheel lasts longer. I don't have the Wolverine jig. It wasn't out when I started. I have the Ellsworth jig for my bowl gouges. For the other tools, I have a Veritas rest at a set angle that never changes. For scrapers, they go on the rest. For spindle and roughing gouges, I have a wedge that goes on the rest to change the angle. Same for the skew.

robo hippy

[Burt Alcantara]

In Richard Raffan's new DVD, "The New Turning Wood," he states that he uses a Tormek as it gives the best possible edge. However, for the entire DVD, he uses a "standard" bench grinder because he says everyone has one.

After watching the videos Gordon linked to I became more interested in the Tormek. I do a lot of cooking and would like my kitchen knives sharper then I can get them. I've tried water stones and now diamond hone. Still can't get a razor edge. Then there's the garden tools. Seems like I could get a lot of use out of one.

One problem I have with the Wolverine is exact repeatablity when dressing different tools. Probably doesn't matter that much but my bevels can get a little faceted.

The Tormek with all of the turning jigs gets close to $900. That hurts, especially since I just bought a 3520B.

Burt

[Jack Mincey]

I used a tormek for more than 8 years now and started using it for turning tools 3 years ago. It is great on gouges after the first time. It does take a while for the first time, after which it only takes 30 or 40 seconds to touch up a gouge using the setting guide. I still keep a rest set on a grinder fast or slow for scrapers. It only takes 3 or 4 seconds to touch up the edge of a scraper on a grinder with the rest already set.
Jack

[Michael Schapansky]

I just bought a Tormek, it was delivered Friday. Since then I've been sharpening things like crazy. Even my pocket knife has never been this sharp. I sharpened an axe and went to split an 8" log. The axe went through the log and split my chopping block with my first swing. The axe has never been that sharp. Gouges and chisels are very sharp and polished to a mirror finish. It does take a while to remove a lot of metal. Soon I was doing the major grinding on an 8" grinder and then sharpening on the Tormek. I even sharpened my pruning loppers.
I did have one small problem with the unit. When using the stone to change grits from 220 to 1000, the wheel would come to a stop. This would also happen occasionally while grinding tools and the axe. I posted a question on the Tormek forum and had a solution within an hour! That was great service especially on a Saturday. The solution? The steel drive shaft is new and very smooth. I roughed up the shaft with some course sandpaper and the problem was solved. While I hesitated for quite a while due to the price, what I got is a professional quality sharpening system that can handle far more than lathe tools quickly and accurately.

[Burt Alcantara]

Michael,
You're pushing me over the edge!

Burt

[Eric Magruder]

Gordon, when did the WD come out, I haven't seen the mag with a DVD.

Cheers

[Gordon Seto]

Gordon, when did the WD come out, I haven't seen the mag with a DVD.

Cheers
It came in the mail inside the plastic bag with the Woodturning Design Magazine several days ago. I don't know whether the retail copy will have the same DVD attached.
I suggest Jeff Farris should have cut up the DVD into sections and post them in YouTube. I found some older Tormek clips for flat chisels on YouTube, but not this one.
I really like the "Tormek TNT Selection Chart". (I wish it wasn't copyrighted and I can post the chart here) The TTS-100 is capable of setting bowl gouges of 40, 45, 55 & 60 degree preset nose angles and Ellsworth grind. No Sharpie, no peeping to match the angle and the setting is dead on every time. I am anticipating Jet, Grizzly and Harbor Freight would come up with the TTS-100 clones when the pattern expires in may be 14 more years.:D

[Jeff Farris]

The DVD's are inserted in subscription copies only.

[Jeff Farris]

...
I really like the "Tormek TNT Selection Chart". (I wish it wasn't copyrighted and I can post the chart here) The TTS-100 is capable of setting bowl gouges of 40, 45, 55 & 60 degree preset nose angles and Ellsworth grind. No Sharpie, no peeping to match the angle and the setting is dead on every time. I am anticipating Jet, Grizzly and Harbor Freight would come up with the TTS-100 clones when the pattern expires in may be 14 more years.:D

Gordon,

Rather than a post, how about a link? Here's the whole TTS-100 story, including the profile chart, which is linked on the page in PDF so that anyone can download it.

http://www.tormek.com/en/accessories/tts100/

[Rich Boehlke]

Rich,

You shouldn't take the fact every demonstrator had a Wolverine system at the DWR as an endorsement of that system. Club members donated the use of their grinders and Wolverine systems for the symposium -- we didn't give the demonstrators a choice. Faith promoting rumor is that some of the demonstrators, such as Nick Cook, use a Tormek to sharpen their tools in their home shop.

The message, if there is one, is that the Wolverine and slow grinder is the "standard" that everyone seems to know how to use. If you're going to travel around the country demonstrating, you'll need to know how to sharpen by hand on a dry grinder or how to use the Wolverine. Like Microsoft Windows, Wolverine is the standard everyone must know. That doesn't mean it's the best. (It doesn't mean it's not, either.)

Interesting point, David.
One of the hazards of being a new kid, I was not aware of the donated status of equipment at the DWR. I am not anti Tormek, in fact I own one. Still, the predominance of the Wolverine system played heavily in my decision to purchase one. The Tormek seems to have a longer learning curve as well as a longer setup time at the beginning of a sharpening session. It does a great job with kitchen knives, planer knives, chisels, sissors etc. While the Wolverine system is more narrowly targeted to turning tools and as such lends a degree of convenience to that purpose. All this is of course IMO

For now, I'll work with the Wolverine for turning. Who knows? I might change my mind down the road. This all must be part of that vortex I have been hearing about.

[David Walser]

Rich,

I'm not going to try and talk you or anyone else into using a Tormek for their turning tools. It's what I've come to prefer for my own sharpening. Lots of turners, most of them better than me, prefer the Wolverine. I think they're wrong. And they think I'm wrong. That's fine by me. I mean, if we're going to get into an argument about something, it might as well be about something important -- like did Holmes really get both feet in bounds and did Warner really fumble? (By the way, the correct answer to both those questions is "no".)

Good luck with the vortex!

[Gordon Seto]

Jeff,

It is hard to keep up with the innovation from Tormek. I am barely comfortable with mine and the extra print out of the chart next to the Tormek; it is obsolete.:rolleyes: How long has this jig setter been in the market? I discovered it about a year ago.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/gbseto/23878471.jpg
Last time I checked, the PDF file was not available.
You did a nice job on the DVD.

[Gordon Seto]

Neither Wolverine nor Tormek would change what kind of turner we are. So far all of the sharpening system do is helping us to get the consistent repeatability. We should still know when to stop, where to grind more. None of them can prevent us getting an incorrect grind.
The only thing that counts is the finished piece.

[Jeff Farris]

Jeff,

It is hard to keep up with the innovation from Tormek. I am barely comfortable with mine and the extra print out of the chart next to the Tormek; it is obsolete.:rolleyes: How long has this jig setter been in the market? I discovered it about a year ago.....

Gordon,

It's been out about 3 years. Your printed chart shouldn't be obsolete, it may have been reformatted, but the settings are the same. Your setter is printed with with original 5 profiles, which when we developed it, were patterned after my tools. Darrell Nish and Torgny Jansson collaborated on the additional profiles. Darrell wanted to use the the TTS-100, but thought the bevels on my skew and spindle gouge profiles were too long for beginning and intermediate turners. He and Torgny worked out the geometry to get the additional profiles, making the tool even more effective.

[John Dingman]

I an in need of a sharpining system and was thinking about the Tormek. Any thoughts on this system? thoughts on other systems?
Thanks
DaveDave,

I went to Farm and Fleet and bought an 8" slow speed grinder, and made my own sharpening system with some shop scraps based on the wolverine set up.

Here it is:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/johnswoodshop/Woodworking/SharpeningJig001.jpg?t=1234287515

Here it is set up to do skews:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/johnswoodshop/Woodworking/SharpeningJig007.jpg?t=1234287398

The jig is simple to make and it works great! I use the Aluminum Oxide Griniding wheels (120 Grit) and it puts a sharp edge on quick!

hth,
John

[Mike Stephens]

I did more or less the same thing and it works great. I am also going to build Jean Michaels side grind jig.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=109616&d=1234264605
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=109615&d=1234264605

[Eric Teague]

For those of us on a severe budget, has anyone seen the HF Tormek Clone (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95236)?

I figure that I can buy Tormek jigs for it.

[David Walser]

It must be twice as enjoyable using a jig you made yourself. Not only do you get a sharp tool, you have the satisfaction of using something you made yourself.

Without criticizing you, allow me to use your post as a jumping off point to discuss something that bothers me with the Wolverine and similar jigs. By referencing off the end of the tool's handle, the bevel angle is determined by the length of the tool. Which means, the bevel angle will change each time you sharpen (unless you reset the jig's arm every time ). Contrast this with Woodcut's Tru-Grind and similar jigs (including the Tormek) that references off the amount the tool's tip extends (protrudes) in front of the jig. With these type jigs, you mount the tool in the jig -- setting the proper protrusion -- and you can sharpen knowing you'll get virtually* the same bevel angle (assuming you've not reset the jig's arm since the last time you sharpened). It's a quicker and more accurate system.

*Note: I said "virtually the same bevel angle" because the bevel angle will change with the diameter of the wheel. As the diameter changes over time, you'll need to move the arm closer to the wheel. However, you can sharpen several times before needing to re-adjust the arm of the jig. From one shaprening to the next, there wouldn't be a noticable difference.

[David Walser]

For those of us on a severe budget, has anyone seen the HF Tormek Clone (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95236)?

I figure that I can buy Tormek jigs for it.

There was a recent roundup of wet grinders and other non-traditional sharpening systems (such as the sharpfast) in one of the woodworking magazines. They thought the Tormek was the best system, but expensive. They liked the Grizzly clone of the Tormek (which is the same thing as the HF clone). However, they suggested using the Tormek jigs and warned that the clone was not nearly as good a machine. It's just an option if money is really tight.

[Bob Haverstock]

Filks,
I went to the St. Loius Show last weekend. I looked a the Wolverine Grinder that one of the venders was using, I was impressed. I couldn't find an inexpensive slow speed grinder at the show. I did break down and buy a Wolverine Vari-Grind attachment, but I just could bring myself to but the Wolverine Grinding Jig. I stopped by WoodCafter's and bout an 8" slow grinder there.

I have some project that I have to finish then I can build the sliding locaators for the system. I think 1"square tubing will be my material of choice.

BTW, what are your favored grinding wheels? Are any of you using set blocks with the Vari-Grind?

Thanks for the discussion and the photos

Bob

[Gordon Seto]

You can build this:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pdf/ShopBuiltJig.pdf
This is what our Club grinder uses with the Varigrind side grind jig.

The OEM wheels of the Woodcraft slow speed grinder are decent. The quality control is not very consistent. Once in awhile there may be a unit that is out of balance badly that is beyond truing up. To save your frustration and trouble of exchanging. Open the box and plug it in for a test run. Do expect some very slight vibration; it may get better when you true up the wheels. You are not paying for a Baldor grinder; don't expect it to perform like one. When it is time to replace the wheels, I highly recommend the 46 and 80 grit Norton 3X "K" hardness wheels. They are the best value. They cut fast, run cool and hold up well. Almost as good as the Norton SG wheels which cost 3 times as much.
Another must have accessory is the T handle diamond dresser (there are other options, but this is the most cost effective). It is for truing and dressing the wheels. Use it often.When the metal particles embedded in the wheels, the glazed wheel would generate heat from the friction instead of sharpening.
http://www.oneway.ca/multi-media/wolverine_videos.htm
Always use light touch. Never press down on the tool. Learn how a tool grind should look like. None of the jigs is smart; you have to know where to stop and where to grind more.
Tool steel is expensive. When you have to change a grind, you don't have to change the whole bevel at one time. What matters is the edge; you can gradually morph into your grind a little at a time.