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John Adam
02-08-2009, 12:13 AM
Guys,

Just getting started...went to my first ww show today...

I've never used a plane before, and have some inexpensive bench planes that are still in the box waiting for my workshop to be completed. I was told that with the proper tuning and care, they'd work fine....

One of the displays at the show had a nice set of japanese planes - one pull and I was hooked. Little paper thin shavings that I wanted to take home!!!

First - I may take back my power jointer/planer. No way I'd get that same feeling wearing goggles, hearing protection and push blocks!

Second - does anyone have strong feelings about planing on the pull rather than push? The planer I used was $35 and frankly felt better than the $200 planer I tried at the Lee Valley booth a bit later. Also, the little wood plane seemed a lot easier to tune up that a full metal plane. A bit of sandpaper and the bottom would be smooth!

I'd love to hear the cave men talk....

James Owen
02-08-2009, 2:24 AM
....I'd love to hear the cave men talk....

John,

Welcome to the slippery slope! And here's a healthy shove [PUSH, PUSH] to help you over the edge..... :-)

First question: Hand planes are my favorite tools. To my mind, there really is nothing quite like the "schwisch" of a fine shaving coming off a board and the polished marble finish left by a finely-tuned plane!! As a dedicated true Neanderthal, my comment absolutely has to be nothing other than: by all means, take the tailed apprentice back, get a refund, and use the dinero to buy some more fine-quality Neander tools!!!

On a more realistic note...eventually you'll have to decide whether you want to go completely Neander or have a mixed-tool shop; for number of very legitimate reasons, many people choose the mixed-tool route. Regardless of which way you eventually choose, quality hand tools are always a very useful addition to any shop, and allow you to do many things directly and quickly that are often difficult, dangerous, or require extensive (and time-consuming) jigging, test cuts, etc., with power tools.

Second question: Push or pull? In all honesty, that boils down completely to a matter of personal preference. For my part, I happen to mainly prefer Western Bailey-style planes, although my plane inventory also contains a couple of Western wooden planes and several wooden Chinese-style pull planes. Bottom line is that they all work equally well at what they do. While new wooden planes are initially "easier" to tune, as the sole wears (usually spread out over a period of several years of intense usage), the mouth tends to widen. There are certainly ways to remedy that, but it often becomes a fairly labor-intensive and intricate job to do so. And, there is also the learning curve (relatively short for most people) of developing the skill of adjusting the iron. None of that, however, should discourage you from using wooden (pull-) planes, if that is the way you decide to go; just consider it a part of learning how to use the tool -- because that is all it really is -- and be aware that the mouth widening through wear is something that you will eventually have to deal with.

On the other hand, one of the advantages of a metal plane -- although it may initially take longer to tune -- is that it also tends to stay tuned for a longer time. Once tuned, the only things normally requiring any attention are the iron (periodic honing) and every couple of years -- depending upon the intensity of use -- flattening the sole. Other than that -- barring damage due to unfortunate things like dropping it on a concrete floor, etc., and location-induced rust problems -- a tuned metal plane is more or less maintenance-free.

If you would like to try what I consider to be the top of the line production plane, then test drive a Lie-Nielsen #4-1/2 or #5-1/2. IMO, these are -- bar none -- the finest production Bailey-style metal planes made anywhere in the world (Veritas fans will likely take exception to my previous statement, but I stand by it; after all, we all have our personal preferences....). :-)

As general comments, the traditional ways of working wood have numerous advantages: they're lots quieter -- with hand tools, you can work at midnight without the neighbors calling the cops; try that with a router or a table saw....). There are no dust collection requirements -- most hand tools produce shavings -- much better for your lungs, among other things. They are generally safer -- for example, and to be a real smart mule, I defy you to cut a finger off with a hand saw -- although you can, through inattention or carelessness, cause yourself severe damage with hand tools: just see how your foot reacts to you dropping a chisel through it, for example.....(please do NOT try this at home....). Anyway, you get the idea.

Regardless of whether you choose "push" or "pull" hand planes, you'll have a good time. The process, as well as the end result, are what makes this such a gratifying hobby. By all means, seek other opinions, experiment, play, and have confidence in what feels right to your hands. One of the great things about woodworking is that there are many ways to do it. Which one to choose? That depends on your tool set and your skills, as well as your desire to learn new things....

Bottom line? Have fun and make cool stuff!!

John Sanford
02-08-2009, 2:34 AM
I can't speak to the efficacy of planes designed to be used on the pull, but I pull my Lie-Nielsen Low Angle Block plane frequently, and I've even pulled some of my metal bench planes on occasion. Pulling can work just fine, and these aren't even planes designed for such a dynamic. It should be noted though that the pull planes are designed to be used "just so", and when used in their intended fashion they work better than when used in a hybrid fashion. What is their intended fashion? Not sure, although I do know that a Japanese workbench is essentially an inclined beam. There should be some good books on Japanese woodworking to get you edjumicated on the matter.

I'd suggest though that you hold onto the tailed apprentices for a bit. They can be mighty handy, even if they are somewhat noisy and dusty. Taking a single wafer thin shaving off a piece of wood with a handplane can be heaven. Taking a 6'x8"'x1" down to 3/4" thick can be purgatory! Doing it to a dozen such planks can be hell. :eek:

John Adam
02-08-2009, 8:41 AM
Thanks!

Thanks to both of you for your thoughtful (and humorous) replies.

I'm working on a very tight budget, I had much to buy and not much money, so I'm about done for now. In fact, after buying my jointer/planer, some saws, chisels, planes and dust collection; I barely have any money for wood!!

Anyway, thanks again and I'll let you know how it all works out....

george wilson
02-08-2009, 8:53 AM
When visitors in Williamsburg would ask me why Japanese tools were pulled,I would tell them that gravity worked backwards on the other side of the World!! Which,of course means absolutely NOTHING.

John Adam
02-08-2009, 9:07 AM
Yes, but if you say it with enough confidence, everyone will believe you...NO ONE would make up something like that!!

Robert Rozaieski
02-08-2009, 9:10 AM
One of the displays at the show had a nice set of japanese planes - one pull and I was hooked. Little paper thin shavings that I wanted to take home!!!
Don't get too enthralled with the tissue paper thin shavings. Sure, they're nice and they are cool to show off to your friends but they're useless for actual woodworking except at the very end of the process when you are doing final smoothing. The rest of the time you don't want translucent shavings unless you like planing for weeks on end.



First - I may take back my power jointer/planer. No way I'd get that same feeling wearing goggles, hearing protection and push blocks!
If you don't use a jointer and planer you'll need more than one hand plane and those tissue thin shaving won't be so important. You don't want to plane a rough sawn board with a plane that takes tissue thin shavings. You want one with an open mouth that can take a thick shaving to get rid of the rough saw marks qucikly and begin bringing the board to flat. These are commonly called fore or jack planes.

Then you want a second that takes a finer shaving, but still not tissue thin, with a long sole to do the final flattening of the board. These are commonly called try or jointer planes.

The tissue shaving smoother is the last plane in the process and the least used of the three. The fore/jack and try/jointer are used at least 3 times as much as the smoother when doing this process by hand.

Oh, and if you don't like to sweat, don't sell of the jointer and planer just yet. Facing rough lumber by hand is work. I speak from experience as I do all my work by hand. However, I'm a bit sick so I enjoy it :D.

John Adam
02-08-2009, 9:30 AM
All great points.

I'm keeping the power tool. It may be heresy on this part of the site, but there is something about the roar of power tools...more power and all (as a bow to Tim Allen).

Right now I have a #4 and #5 and one of the new Jet B3NCH 10" Jointer/Planer combo units. I'm hoping that will cover all my needs in the near future (except for really long stock 'cause the jointer tables are pretty short).

I love breaking a sweat, and currently use the manual labor part of woodworking as an excuse to skip my workouts - so the hand planes will just reinforce that part!

I just need to get the rest of the room completed, then get all the tools tuned and sharpened, then get dust collection installed, then buy some wood and build something!!!

I'll check back in August ;)

Thanks!

David Keller NC
02-08-2009, 9:35 AM
"Second - does anyone have strong feelings about planing on the pull rather than push? The planer I used was $35 and frankly felt better than the $200 planer I tried at the Lee Valley booth a bit later. Also, the little wood plane seemed a lot easier to tune up that a full metal plane. A bit of sandpaper and the bottom would be smooth!"

Something doesn't sound right (about the price, that is). Generally, Japanese planes are all about the iron, not the plane body. It's not that the plane body doesn't have its own sophistications (they certainly do - a thousand years of refinements makes them work very well), but almost all Japanese irons are laminated hard steel onto a soft wrought iron base. This process is done by forge-welding, and it's labor intensive. A "typical" Japanese plane body and forged iron is in the $200-$300 range, and a lot of Japanese craftsmen would view these as relatively cheap. Many, many sell for around the $400 range - and that's just the iron.

Here are a few examples:

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&dept_id=12940

It might well be that you tried a "Japanese-style Plane", made in China. While I can't say how long the edge would last in a $35 "japanese-style plane", my guess is that you'd be giving up some of what makes Japanese planes famous - and incredibly sharp iron that retains its edge far longer than a Western counterpart.

John Adam
02-08-2009, 9:47 AM
Good point.

I managed to find a site with the exact plane/manufacturer (but not the reseller, can't remember their name).

Here's the link:
http://www.mjftools.com/en/en/product_detail.asp?productid=647&CateID=&CateType=1&CatgegoryID=#

First thing I'd say is that it's a taiwanese-style plane - not sure if it's my bad memory or what, but I was sure he said Japanese.

Woodline has them for sale, but doesn't have a picture, so I'm not sure if it's the same item...

http://www.woodline.com/p-2210-7-ebony-plane.aspx