First Restorations

[Clay Thigpen]

I picked up a few planes a while back and have just now gotten around to working on them. The #4 1/2 and #5c are pretty rough and will both need new blades and a chip breaker for the #4 1/2 maybe. The #6 I got along with a iron? butcher cleaver and a small Back-saw from the basement of a 1790's/1870's house that has been an antique/carpenters shop for the past 25 years or so. The saw was in a trash can, the plate is chipped and broken but the handle was nice and I liked the look of it so I got it as well. It has 2 owners stamps that I can't make out and the Back has "Moses Eaton Sheffield" in an oval on it. I'd like to put a new saw plate in it at some point I think and maybe use the one out of it if it doesn't have a makers mark for something as well. I'll post pics of what they look like clean soon as well.

P.S. Any tips about what to do with the saw? it has one split nut? on it and the other is solid how would I take that out?

[george wilson]

That saw looks like it could be fairly early,and might have collector's value. It could be a rare maker. I wouldn't change the blade until I checked around. Someone in the Early American Industries Asson. might shed some light on the part of the name you can make out.

One nut is not split? Does that mean it is a rivet? Or,is it really an original split nut that got the screw slot ground all the way off when it was dressed flat? We made split nut saws. They were roughly sand cast in the period,and so were ours. Standard proceedure was to screw them in,peen the nuts out to fill the cavity,and grind them flush. They can be ground till the slot is gone unless done carefully. The older the saw,the less careful they tended to be. Mid to late 19thC. was the peak of careful work. 18th.C. tends to be rather rough,but well designed. With machines later,work could be done more carefully without starving to death. I've seen very old saws that had nuts that looked like fried eggs from being peened out. Cast brass peens easily if soft yellow alloy,standard,was used. Look very carefully at the one that seems not split. Carefully clean the nut,and see if you can discern the shaft of the screw coming through. I wouldn't mess with it,or the old patina on the wood at all. Collectors don't like overly done metal cleaning either.

[Clay Thigpen]

I really can't tell, the part that comes through the nut is ever so slightly proud of the nut and it looks almost like there are some horizontal file marks on it, not fine marks just several lines. I'll try to get some close ups of it tonight and post them soon.

[george wilson]

Clay,I think I can make out part of the arc of the screw in the photo. As the two are identical,I am real sure it's just ground down too far .Easy to do

Try taking a SHARPENED center punch,present the point about 1/16" from the edge,and carefully try to drive the disc counter clockwise. You might screw it loose,take it out,and re saw the slot,sawing away your center punch damage. Those screws are very soft,so it's a gamble.

That blade is badly broken. If you get the saw apart,can you cut the blade down and re-tooth it? At least it would save the original blade. Every antique lost is gone forever,and more get ruined every year by refinishing,non reversable botched glue repairs,etc. Must be my museum training.

[george wilson]

Email the info and pictures,name,etc. to jgaynor@cwf.org. He was my director,former curator of tools.He can be excessive in his desire to keep things untouched. Once,he did not want to remove the old grocery twine holding the barrel on an old flintlock rifle: It was PART OF THE HISTORY OF THE RIFLE!!! Now,that's what I mean by museum weenie!!! He should shed light on the maker,and possible value of the saw.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Clay,

I think you might find that's Moses Eadon, not Eaton, could you take another look?

If it is Eadon, then the following might help.

Moses Eadon is a well known Sheffield Maker. From Don McConnells & Erv Schaffers "Hand saw makers of Britain"

Moses Eadon 24 Norfolk Lane 1837 - 1855
Moses Eadon & Sons 109 Norfolk Lane (and various other locations) 1855 - 1903

The lack of the "& Sons", might indicate the earlier date of 1837 to 1855

I would make a new saw plate 15 thou or 20 thou 1095 and give it a tune up, it should make a good user.
Sorry I can't help with a valuation. All I can say is saws from that period are not uncommon to find.

Regards
Ray

Edit: I notice in an 1892 advert that "Moses Eadon" was a registered trademark, which could mean the use of the mark continued after 1855,
in which case the date range for your saw would be 1837 - 1903. The advert also claims they were established in 1823, although the
earliest saw making evidence appears to be the later 1837 date.

[dan grant]

Hi Clay,

I think you might find that's Moses Eadon, not Eaton, could you take another look?

If it is Eadon, then the following might help.

Moses Eadon is a well known Sheffield Maker. From Don McConnells & Erv Schaffers "Hand saw makers of Britain"

Moses Eadon 24 Norfolk Lane 1837 - 1855
Moses Eadon & Sons 109 Norfolk Lane (and various other locations) 1855 - 1903

The lack of the "& Sons", might indicate the earlier date of 1837 to 1855

I would make a new saw plate 15 thou or 20 thou 1095 and give it a tune up, it should make a good user.
Sorry I can't help with a valuation. All I can say is saws from that period are not uncommon to find.

Regards
Ray

Edit: I notice in an 1892 advert that "Moses Eadon" was a registered trademark, which could mean the use of the mark continued after 1855,
in which case the date range for your saw would be 1837 - 1903. The advert also claims they were established in 1823, although the
earliest saw making evidence appears to be the later 1837 date.
ok ray where are you getting this info, it is very interesting

[george wilson]

I'd say it's early,from the early type saw screws.

[Ray Gardiner]

ok ray where are you getting this info, it is very interesting

Hi Dan,
A good primary information source is Trade Directories, they were a sort of the equivalent of a phone book of the day, and published by a variety of firms. There are some on-line databases like http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/ and you can get CD's and a few reprints, I have an 1899 reprint of the Gales & Martins 1787 Sheffield Directory, and some others. which are difficult to search, but sometimes it can fill in the gaps. Other primary sources are advertisments, archive material like company records cash books etc, are difficult to access unless you happen to live in Sheffield. Another good primary reference is tool catalogues.

Secondary sources are books like Don McConnells "Handsaw Makers of Britain" and Ken Roberts "Some 19th Century Woodworking tools" there are also the contemporary research publications that often fill in the background otherwise difficult to find. Also the EAIA http://www.eaiainfo.org directories, now available on CD, is a good start for researching US based toolmakers and the Chronicle is coming out soon on DVD (courtesty of Gary Roberts) see http://www.toolemera.com and of course the uk based http://www.taths.org.uk/ also publishes regular articles

Regards
Ray

[Ian Gillis]

[SNIP]

I would make a new saw plate 15 thou or 20 thou 1095 and give it a tune up, it should make a good user.

[SNIP]

Hi Ray

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but I also have a split nut English dovetail saw that is a candidate for a new plate. (It's stamped "C. NURSE LONDON / INVICTA.) The existing plate measures about 28 thousandths (it varies a bit). My Lee Valley dovetail saw has a 30 thou plate. I'm just curious to know what are the advantages of going with 15 or 20 thou steel. Aside from the thinner kerf, that is.

I'm wondering whether a plate that thin would be difficult to file due to chatter. Just as we need to use finer pitch saws in thin pieces of wood to keep more teeth in contact with the wood, is there a limit to how thin the plate can be with standard taper files?

I'm genuinely curious here, not trying to start an argument.

Cheers,
Ian

[george wilson]

We made many .015" dovetails. They were the most prized of all the saws we made by the cabinet shop in Williamsburg. Just clamp the teeth close down to the vise,no problem. use an extra slim taper 3 square file,smooth cut. Set the teeth as little as possible for the best performance. Too much set will ruin the cut of any saw,Makes a horrible cut.

The very thin kerf the thinnest blade makes will help you to accurately cut on a thin scribe,or real sharp pencil line. You will be spoiled by a .015" blade. Don't try to use the thin plate on a saw longer than a dovetail saw as the plate may be too easy to flex.

[Charles Shenk]

If I'm seeing the square sides correctly, it looks like the #6 plane is a bedrock plane. :D

[Ian Gillis]

We made many .015" dovetails. They were the most prized of all the saws we made by the cabinet shop in Williamsburg. Just clamp the teeth close down to the vise,no problem. use an extra slim taper 3 square file,smooth cut. Set the teeth as little as possible for the best performance. Too much set will ruin the cut of any saw,Makes a horrible cut.

The very thin kerf the thinnest blade makes will help you to accurately cut on a thin scribe,or real sharp pencil line. You will be spoiled by a .015" blade. Don't try to use the thin plate on a saw longer than a dovetail saw as the plate may be too easy to flex.


Thank you, George. There's nothing as good as information from someone with direct experience.

Mind you, it's a pity you have only 39 years experience at the foundry and not 40 ;)

Cheers
Ian

[george wilson]

At the TOOLMAKER,please !!! Yes,I could have had the 40 year pin. Only got the 35. When the Vice president gave it to me,he dropped it. When he was picking it up,I said"Be careful,you'll wipe the gold off" Dirty look from him !!! Was only kidding.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Ray

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but I also have a split nut English dovetail saw that is a candidate for a new plate. (It's stamped "C. NURSE LONDON / INVICTA.) The existing plate measures about 28 thousandths (it varies a bit). My Lee Valley dovetail saw has a 30 thou plate. I'm just curious to know what are the advantages of going with 15 or 20 thou steel. Aside from the thinner kerf, that is.

I'm wondering whether a plate that thin would be difficult to file due to chatter. Just as we need to use finer pitch saws in thin pieces of wood to keep more teeth in contact with the wood, is there a limit to how thin the plate can be with standard taper files?

I'm genuinely curious here, not trying to start an argument.

Cheers,
Ian

I think George has already answered your question, I have only ever used 20 thou (because that's what I've got) but recently I see that Andrew Lunn (http://www.eccentricwoodcraft.com/page3_toolworks.html) is making DT saws with 15 thou plate and got a very good review from Chris Schwartz, I noted George's comments on 15 thou saw plate in another thread as well. I am starting to think I'll get some 15 thou and see how it goes.

For reference here is a comparison of some DT saws dimensions http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/content/binary/Dovetail%20Saw.pdf And the blog is here http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Andrew+Lunns+Supertuned+Dovetail+Saws.aspx

For filing, once you get finer than 15ppi, I think needle files are better. All I need is a pair of better eyes.

BTW Charles Nurse (1905-1937) was a London Based tool dealer, probably better known for his planes. There might be a "rearing horse stamp" on the spine. Nice saw.



Regards
Ray

[george wilson]

I have a Nurse jack plane,used it a lot.

[Clay Thigpen]

I snapped a few more shots of some key points of the saw just for reference. I found out how the saw got broken the fellow I bought it from told me he used to use it to saw pegs and such flush with it and didn't saw it all the way through, he'd get most of the way and just lift the saw and pop the peg off....and one day the saw broke, I winced when I was told this.

The name on the back is indeed "Moses Eadon" my mistake. The back seems to bee folded Steel? it doesn't appear to have been slotted but I don't know for sure. the back and plate are 10 inches and it seems to have been filed at 15 or 16 ppi?

Charles: I got the #6 cleaned up but all the way I think it's a type 7. the blade has STANLEY PAT APL 19 95 in 2 lines on it, and the lateral adjust seems to have some dates on it too but I can't make them out yet. I'll have to wait to clean the others, I can't find citric acid around me and I don't want to use lemon juice again.