Why is custom cabinetry so expensive? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Larry Edgerton

02-07-2009, 7:20 AM

One of two reasons....

Time or money

A company like Craft Maid has millions of dollars in machinery to pump out junk particleboard boxes with mediocre fronts. They have to pay for all of those machines, and the unskilled labor to run them along with all of the normal overhead, plus on top of that the have to pay all of the office staff that organizes and sells this junk. Lots of money.....

A craftsman working in a small shop has more money per box invested in tools, even though he has less tooling, he is not pumping out thousands of boxes per day. Instead you are paying for generally better quality materials, and a lot more time per unit by skilled workers. There are some small shops copying the methods of the large conglomerates, particle board and all, but by and large you get a better product in a small shop because of the care and skill of the owners/craftsmen. Due to economy of scale, hardware will cost the small shop at least double of the giants, plywood instead of ground up wood with a photo of wood on it costs more, so forth and so on. Add to that the normal overhead of owning a business.

Do you think it should be cheaper for a hand made cabinet? Why would a better product cost less? I am confused.

Ed Peters

02-07-2009, 7:34 AM

Jay Brewer

02-07-2009, 7:58 AM

Larry and Ed made some good points. The only thing I can add is custom ANYTHING is expensive. I am small time, 4 to 6 kitchens a year. I have around 100 hours invested in an average kitchen, around 200 hours in a large truly custom kitchen ( 25% of the hours are hired help). I have a considerable investment in machinery and tooling that cost money to to keep running.

Most people make a good living at there job, and all it cost them is the gas to get there. Most people will also gladly pay a plumber with a bucket of tools $65 an hour ( no offence to the plumbers:D).

So when I am hired, the customer is paying for my skill, my employee, insurance, machinery, tooling, gas, everything it cost to run a business.

Kevin Godshall

02-07-2009, 8:20 AM

I understand that the wood and hardware itself isn't cheap, but I was wondering why custom kitchen cabinetry can cost $25k, $35k, or more? What percentage of that cost is material vs. labor? And is the customer paying more for the time that it takes to build them or the skill?

Having worked in the bowels of one of the cabinet suppliers to the Borg, let me reiterate: Sausage is good to eat, but you're better off not seeing how it's made.

Mass production of cabinetry is a whole different world from custom work. Our goal was simple: make 1000s of cabinets as efficiently and as economically as possible. Can we save a dollar here? Let's try. Will this fly? Let's try. One example was a discussion we had on whether or not we actually had to put clear coat on the backs of drawer fronts. Not a big issue you may think, but it calculates out to thousands of dollars when you consider the scope. Also, we hired right off the street, didn't matter if individual had woodworking interest, let alone any skill level. How much quality craftsmanship can you really buy for $9.50 per hour?

Did we ever try to grain match doors. Nope. Ever sort lumber in the hopes of finding pieces that would be interesting in terms of center panels or drawer front styles? Nope.

One last thing I would argue, is that there are many pricing levels of work, even from the major suppliers. Our job was to build cabinetry to the "lower/middle economic class". Another plant focused on "high end" (even some of those prices would make custom seem cheap).

Tear apart custom cabinetry and see the construction and detail. Tear apart the average retailed purchase cabinets and see where they did the "Oh my", "What the .....??", and the "You can't do that......."'s.

In the end, the price is commensurate to the quality invested.

Frank Drew

02-07-2009, 9:45 AM

Tear apart the average retailed purchase cabinets and see where they did the "Oh my", "What the .....??", and the "You can't do that......."'

Often no tearing apart necessary -- they fall apart all on their own.

I've been appalled at what passes for commercially acceptable in some of the mid- to lower-end stuff that gets installed in houses.

And I'll echo Jay... have you seen what plumbers are getting these days?

Chris Konikowski

02-07-2009, 9:51 AM

runs around $7K with installation included, no countertops. Dovetailed drawer boxes on full extension glides. Raised panel rail and stile doors and crown molding to trim it out. Lazy susans are built by me for maximum access and storage (no center poles). Cases are 3/4" thick throughout including the backs. My pricing allows a reasonable profit for my brother and myself after the material is purchased and provides excuses to buy additional equipment and upgrades for myself. Obviously this is not my main source of income. It is my outlet and I am satisfied with the return. How many kitchens would you like?

Ed

That seems a little on the low side. Is that for paint grade or stain grade?

Joe Chritz

02-07-2009, 10:17 AM

20' of cabinets assuming 10' lower and 10' upper at 36" could be done for 7K if I used oak and raised panels. There wouldn't be anything fancy like crown molding and the shelves would be square edge banded. I wouldn't turn $50 an hour labor but I would get more than I make at my real job and still cover overhead.

Everything about a custom job is expensive, from the design to the construction.

A large kitchen with a tall pantry and lots of extras could easily reach 25K.

Joe

J.R. Rutter

02-07-2009, 10:24 AM

Obviously this is not my main source of income. It is my outlet and I am satisfied with the return. How many kitchens would you like?
Ed

Well there you go.

No offense, but if you are trying to make a living at this, you have to cover a lot of overhead in space, equipment, insurance; pay employees (including non-producing ones like office staff), taxes, and benefits; make a profit so you can retire; etc. I'm not complaining about it, just pointing out why custom cabinets from a professional cabinet shop cost more.

scott kinninger

02-07-2009, 10:40 AM

I just purchased custom cabinets for my house which was completed Nov 08. I dont think the cost was really all that out of line from mass produced stuff. I think the difference was $21,000 vs $26,000, which did not include kitchen countertops. So how are they better? The grain matching and selection is really outstanding, all of the door panels look like one board, so much so that even I have a hard time finding a glue line in some of them. Also, I have a bank of drawers, following the grain pattern from left to right I can easily see that the drawer fronts are cut from the same board in sequential fashion. Try getting that from a mass produced product. But I would say the biggest benefit from my experience was the time spent by the owner, and master craftsman, with me. I literally would meet or talk with him several times per week about various things. His expertise and knowledge is VASTLY more than the salesmen from the big box store would have. His input is what made my home go from "really nice" to "WOW!".

Mitchell Andrus

02-07-2009, 10:45 AM

Tony Scolaro

02-07-2009, 11:18 AM

In the old days a rough rule of thumb is 4 times material. But of course that doesn't take into account quality, number of draws on and on.

When pricing I also advice fervently that you think about the dangers involved and potential injury to you doing the work for them. I don't mean just the table saw either. Why should the customer who goes to their clean safe high paying job not pay us our propers. We are under valued compared to other trades. Everyone is a wood worker and thinks what we do for a living is easy. I joke that when I am at a show I should hang a sign "I know your husband can, but will he." Actually I try to be an adviser to the customer and be concerned about their interest and problem and try to increase the value of my goods by being a problem solver to them. When they buy what we make they are buying a piece of us. We are the added value. I could go on but I will spare you.

Take care Tony

Ben Franz

02-07-2009, 11:35 AM

What Tony sez:). The glut of home improvement shows has convinced the general public that anyone can do woodworking, construction, landscaping, etc. I'm just waiting for the debut of the "Brain Surgery Network":eek:. Almost every trade has become more complex as the technology and materials become more involved. We're not in 7th grade shop class anymore. My $2.00 (adjusted for client attitude).

John Gornall

02-07-2009, 1:06 PM

I've done custom work (not kitchens) for over 30 years. At the point when the customer asks why it costs so much I've put in about 1000 dollars worth of time with the customer and designing but the customer usually can't see this and thinks they have got nothing so far.

And the customer is sitting on a stool in a nice showroom that has heat, light, insurance, and parking which if I didn't have and pay for the customer wouldn't have come to me.

And of course there's my truck which I use to deliver the product.

Gee - how does the cost of a few pieces of wood and some glue add up to such a price?

Did I mention the cost of my accountant and the city taxes on my shop?

Business licence?

185.00 a month average for saw blade sharpening?

Per Swenson

02-07-2009, 1:14 PM

David DeCristoforo

02-07-2009, 1:36 PM

"But if you have to ask.....etc."

That says it all. Why waste your time even trying to explain...

M. A. Espinoza

02-07-2009, 2:22 PM

Jeff, I make furniture for a living, but hired Crown-Point to make my kitchen. This is my kitchen (my kitchen is the one in the photos), $27,000.00 in cabs alone (in 2003). I wouldn't do it for that. Counting finished side panels, there are 50 'doors'.

http://www.crown-point.com/styles/ac/ArtsandCrafts1.html
.

Wow, you got your money's worth. That is a beautiful kitchen.

If a cabinet shop can please a woodworker they are really on top of their game.

We can be a bit fussy on the details at times.

Karl Brogger

02-07-2009, 4:22 PM

I know its a bad attitude.
But if you have to ask.....
please buy the store bought cabs and we will see if we can schedule you for a install.
Saves a lot of grief and hurt feelings.
Besides the Smith's down the street really don't care.

Per

Totally agree. If I go to bid something and they mention that they went to a box store to price stuff out..... I'm usually at least twice what the average box cabinet costs, and I tell them can't compete with the low end products. The really wierd thing is some of the high end box cabinets are actually more than what I charge. I've never understood that.

This kitchen was $15k for just the cabinets. Doesn't include the countertops, appliance's, lighting, or the "special" glass in the doors that the home owner's wife just had to have. Which wasn't that special. There was a couple other cabinets too, but nothing major. 9' cabinets (except the hood was at 9'-6", 4-1/4" crown with a rope moulding. Basically a flat panel door with a moulding on the inside. Maple dovetail drawers with soft close undermount slides. Maple plywood interiors.

For a while there, the more I charged the more people wanted to pay. Keeping up with the Jones' means alot to some people.
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/71/l_916b6636a551de5b6f64f6b570ffd256.jpg

http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/16/l_15fef053791a44beab06eb5e62089c91.jpg

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/25/l_3f34c7db18224ceb9922e7ae19be20a4.jpg

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/62/l_8f5e30e4d16d4823b1e686bb9b3c4a78.jpg

Sonny Edmonds

02-07-2009, 4:49 PM

Because it is worth it.
If you can't tell the difference, shop at Ikea. :p

John Callahan

02-07-2009, 5:07 PM

Often no tearing apart necessary -- they fall apart all on their own.

I've been appalled at what passes for commercially acceptable in some of the mid- to lower-end stuff that gets installed in houses.

......... +1 Worked on a bunch of condo projects the past couple of years and much of what I saw was pitiful. Drawer faces and other parts falling off before you got the cabinet out of the box. A lot of shipping damage- some were not even packed in boxes; just a cardboard band wrapped around and stapled to the back. Big national builder- just about everything is strictly lowest bid and quality be damned.

Larry Edgerton

02-07-2009, 5:39 PM

Actually this question is why I moved away from cabinets and back to home construction. I got tired of people talking to me like I am a thief because I charge so much more than Home Depot. After kicking a few people out of my shop I decided it was time for a change.

The house I am finishing right now has a nasty version of the "Unfitted Kitchen" with overlay doors and the people paid over 70K for the cabinets, and they are the same old particleboard crap you find at HD but with a better salesman. Absolute junk! The design has no flow pattern that makes sense, its ten steps from the fridge to the stove and six to the sink, but it was "computor designed" by some jerk that up until last year was sorting rough lumber in the back of a local mill.

So I guess my real answer is if you have to ask, go to Home Depot, they have just what you need.......

Ed Peters

02-07-2009, 7:12 PM

That seems a little on the low side. Is that for paint grade or stain grade?

If you check my website, you'll notice that I don't paint anything. Won't even quote on it. I like seeing the wood.

Yes my pricing is a real bargain compaired to most. It's meant to be but I still turn a very acceptable dollar on each job. Keeping in mind that I don't have a lot of overhead (like healthcare etc). In addition, I stock pile Red Oak, the only wood I offer. I buy it low, normaly never above $1.00 per bdft so this also works in the clients best interest. So, can I cover 20' of wall with uppers and lowers for under $7K and realize an acceptable profit? You betcha.

Ed

Peter Quinn

02-07-2009, 7:15 PM

I hear what Larry is saying. i have had my "But the Home Depot can do it cheaper" potential customer in my little side business, and I told them they were fired, I would not work for them, please don't call me again. i am a wood worker, darn it, not a used car salesman. You can't buy a BMW for the price of KIA.

I'd say economies of scale come into play with custom versus stock cabinetry. Not all stock cabinetry is bottom end, some I have seen is quite good, and you can get very good doors/drawers from speciality outfits that are better than some of the less well made custom work. Not all 'custom' work is good work, some guys make junk one at a time too.

In my day job I work for a custom cabinet and millwork shop. We make things to order from architect's plans, or designers plans, or for contractors and design builders from our own plans. Every kitchen is laid out in the field using a story pole. It fits the space, no 4" filler strips at each end. Fridge boxes match the actual fridge being used and are not just a big sloppy generic hole in which to push an appliance. Ditto for all other appliance cabs. We make sink cabs scribed to porcelain farm house sinks, get the idea? Custom work that looks like built in furniture, seamless wall to wall.

So each kitchen requires a set of plans, a set of shop drawings, cut lists and set ups for each piece, molding run in the species in question. You pay the set up and design cost all by your self, but you get exactly what you want. With a big box kitchen, you get exactly what they offer, but the set up and design fees are spread over thousands of units, so you pay only a fraction of these costs, thus for the same quality it will still cost less to buy stock than custom. Make sense?

Now that said this is a VERY diverse business, the cabinet trade, and there are guys operating at many levels. Some book match door panels, cut door frames from a single stick, do it like furniture. Others think melamine is a god send, and there is a lot in between. So if you want to compare stock to custom cabinets, be sure to read the specs closely and kick the tires. That junk at the Borg with the thermo foil doors, 5/8" particle board cases, plastic corner braces and low end hardware cannot be compared to top flight hardwood cabinets with good hardware fairly on either price or quality.

Anyway, at any given quality level, custom will likely cost you more stock cabinets, but not so much as you might think, and for many the difference is worth it to get exactly what they want. For others stock cabinets work fine in their space and for their budget. Just make sure you are comparing apples to apples before you sign a contract.

Kevin Godshall

02-07-2009, 7:39 PM

The funniest part of the whole deal with the borg......

As a Supervisor in the mass production facility, I occasionally got to go to the local retail outlets and pose as a customer, to see if we were being represented fairly and adequately. I don't know how many times I had to ask to speak to a Manager because most of what I was being told by the salesmen were pure lies.

At one heated point, I demanded they pull down one of the in store samples and remove the hinges. My initials were in the hinge hole because I had to sign off on the color match. There wasn't a color match for the Manager's face when the initials in inside the cab matched the ones I had just scribbled on his clipboard.

Greg Cuetara

02-07-2009, 10:01 PM

...Why should the customer who goes to their clean safe high paying job not pay us our propers. We are under valued compared to other trades...

I'm sorry to say this but that is one of the most idiotic things I have heard someone say. It does not matter what the other person does for a job or how much money they make. You need to charge what you are worth and what the product is worth. It is that attitude why I have not been able to build a home yet. I went to a dozen builders and everyone looked at me and said, 'well you are building in this town so you can afford it." No I couldn't afford $200 / sq.ft. for a low end house. I typically work in an office but I do go out on large construction sites and that carries it's own risks so don't judge someone by where they work or what they do.

A set of custom cabinets is worth X amount of dollars. The location may adjust X up or down but the client should not adjust the value of the cabinets up or down.

Back to the OP people are paying for quality construction along with quality materials along with a custom fit. Is it worth it? Only you can decide.

Frank Drew

02-08-2009, 12:44 AM

Greg,

I think you took Tony's comments the wrong way, at least as I understood them (This is hard work that takes thoughtfulness and intelligence and ought to be fairly compensated.)

jack duren

02-08-2009, 1:28 AM

John Sanford

02-08-2009, 1:36 AM

The location may adjust X up or down but the client should not adjust the value of the cabinets up or down.

Why not? Seriously. When was the last time you saw Habitat for Humanity building a home for a Fortune 500 CEO? They won't, even if he came begging to them for a free home, because he can afford the high cost of one himself. Pricing does adjust somewhat for the client. Obviously, this is an extreme example, but it's is also a real one. Or one of your own relatives comes to you. Do you give 'em a break? Most folks would, although for some relatives the cost will go up! :p

Then there's the "difficult" client. We've all encountered them, in one venue or another. It's likely we've even been somebody else's "difficult client" at some point in time. It is a marketplace truism that as a generalization, the more money folks have, the pickier they are as consumers. Thus, the $10k set of cabinets for a customer with an income of $50k is likely going to be less fraught with "difficulty induced risk" than the exact same set of cabinets for a customer with an income of $250k.

As a general rule, the seller can charge whatever he wants, and the buyer can offer whatever he wants. If they can come to an agreement, great, if not, que sera sera. With the tanking of the construction, I'd be surprised if you can't find a builder "in that town" who will be more willing to meet your offer. If not, then build elsewhere. They have no more obligation to meet your perception of their value than you have of meeting their perception of your ability to pay.

jeff begin

02-08-2009, 2:35 AM

Wow. I didn't realize that I'd touch off a firestorm. It's pretty obvious that you pros are constantly having to defend your prices, but you ought to tone down the umbrage a bit.

I am a beginning woodworker and recently purchased my first home. While I probably understand a bit better than the average person that cabinetry is more than wooden boxes hung on the wall, I was very surprised to learn that moderately high-end work can cost well into the five figures. But I've never bought or built cabinets. So I'm still asking: "why are they so expensive?" I have no idea of the material costs, the time it takes, or the skill level required.

Too many of you seem to think that I'm saying that your work isn't worth it. I doubt you're all secretly millionaires, so I'm sure there's a reason why they cost what they do.

M Toupin

02-08-2009, 3:09 AM

So I'm still asking: "why are they so expensive?"

Jeff,
To use your own words:

material costs
the time it takes
the skill level required

then add in the overhead such as:
Machines and tooling
hardware
expendables such as sandpaper, glue nails etc
Rent or mortgage on your business location
utilities (gas, electric, water sewer etc)
Vehicles to transport supplies and finished products
insurance on your vehicles
fuel to run the vehicle
health insurance
and a whole lot more that I've not even touched

Oh, and don't forget the tax man, he wants his share too.

And last but not least, at the end of the day you still have to clear enough to feed yourself and the family and keep a roof over their heads so you can do it all over the next day.

there's a lot more than meets the eye on first flush, try building just one cabinet and come back and let us know what you think.

Mike

M. A. Espinoza

02-08-2009, 3:58 AM

So I'm still asking: "why are they so expensive?" I have no idea of the material costs, the time it takes, or the skill level required.

Toupin pretty much covered it but if you want details check out these books. The answer is too long for a web forum. Since you are just getting started woodworking and just bought a house soon you will know the answers first hand.

Profitable Woodworking, Martin Edic

Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets, Guide to Becoming a Professional Cabinetmaker both by Jim Tolpin.

Kelly C. Hanna

02-08-2009, 7:50 AM

I can tell you that an incredible amount of time and thought goes into custom cabinetry. I am in stall mode waiting on a plumber and electrician in the middle of an $11k Oak cabinet job. I consider this cheap....she's a friend. Had it been a client the price would have been $18-19k.

The first time you actually build a set of cabinets, regardless of how many, you'll understand.

Now as to the factory made crapola you see...well someone has to pay for those expensive buildings and the unskilled and sometimes undocumented labor to run them.

Greg Cuetara

02-08-2009, 9:54 AM

Greg,

I think you took Tony's comments the wrong way, at least as I understood them (This is hard work that takes thoughtfulness and intelligence and ought to be fairly compensated.)

Frank, I hope I misunderstood Tony's comments. I never meant to say that a cabinetmaker should not be fairly compensated. On the contrary most cabinetmakers make furniture in the kitchen which requires some artistery, talent and experience. That is worth a lot of money. My point is, do you ask how much someone makes and what they do, before you price your cabinets?

A great example is that a millionaire could see a sawstop as spending too money much whereas there are a great deal of hobbiest on this forum who make a lot less than that and go out and buy one.

If you make cabinets and they cost 50k and you think they are worth 50k then that is what they are worth. Your time and art are worth real money. I guess it just strikes a cord with me when someone else assumes I can afford something or pay a certain price because of what I do or how much I make. What I can afford is my business and If I choose to pay 50k for cabinets that is my business or also my business to seek out someone else to build them for 25k or go buy crapola at the borg.

Jim Becker

02-08-2009, 10:10 AM

I would like to point out that the income demographic of the customer isn't necessarily tied to the "difficult customer" quotient and suspect that the pros posting here will agree, although there may be more likelihood of issues with some upper income folks. The worst customers are those that are constantly changing their minds, dragging out projects well beyond the expected time frame for the cabinetmaker and generally causing major angst, no matter what the projected price for the job, before or after completion. It's the "mental health penalty" and I also suspect that after some time in business, cabinet makers start to get a feel for when things might get difficult, but there will always be surprises. You can have great customers who live very comfortably and great customers who live very modestly. And vice versa.

As to the original question, "custom" brings a lot to the table that you don't or can't get with mass production products. Part of it is "ultimate configuration flexibility"...design that just isn't off the shelf. Part of it is careful material management so that there is a fine-furniture quality to the grain and color match. (I dislike mass produced doors 'cause they look, well...mass produced from an unsorted pile of wood generally) Part of it is the flexibility to get a finish that is exactly what you envision, rather than what is available in the stock catalog.

Honestly, you can do all these things yourself in your own shop if you have the time and ability; and "save" money...at least in cash outlay. I sorta did that in 2003 with our major kitchen renovation...totally gutted and rebuilt. I did what would have cost $60K in this area for $20K (high-end appliances including in both figures). But it was a lot of work and frankly, my cabinetry, while looking nice from a few feet away, is not of anything close to the quality that my cabinetmaker neighbor and his partner do. I truly respect their work and what they charge because I now understand what they put into that work to get the results they do.

Larry Edgerton

02-08-2009, 10:31 AM

I guess it just strikes a cord with me when someone else assumes I can afford something or pay a certain price because of what I do or how much I make. What I can afford is my business and If I choose to pay 50k for cabinets that is my business or also my business to seek out someone else to build them for 25k or go buy crapola at the borg.

That was not part of your original question, and it is really irrelivent to what a product is worth. I can not afford a Porsche, but I do not attack their value because they are out of my price range.

I agree with Tony, and what the heck did you expect when you come on a woodworking forum and insult professionals. Just in case you are confused, I am disagreeing with your position.:)

Mark Bolton

02-08-2009, 10:37 AM

So I'm still asking: "why are they so expensive?" I have no idea of the material costs, the time it takes, or the skill level required.

I love reading these posts, it makes me feel less alone in the world. Yuk Yuk.

For me I think the question has been answered in many ways but maybe you could think about it differently by just focusing on the basics of manufacturing.

With the issue of quality aside you can reduce the cost to the customer through mass production and fixed set of goods offered to the customer. No variables, production hits a pace with little to no changes. It can of course be taken down to the level of a couple styles of cabinets in as many colors. In that scenario there is no unforseen issues, you make your product, and manage inventory levels.

Next step, semi custom, perhaps more styles, more colors, mix and match door options, dozens of optional items from slides, pull outs, spice racks, on and on. In this situation once the order is placed the mfr. can pick from stock components for some of the order and may fabricate others as needed. Not really custom at all as its plug and play from fixed base components yet its more difficult. Its still a production environment with a fixed offering that can be tracked and inventoried.

Now you get to custom cabs. You are alone in the woods, the design has no fixed height, width, shape, color, period. You have no catalog of base components sitting in inventory waiting for you to spruce them up and send them out. You are starting from scratch. Not stock sizes having to be fit to the space. Colors can vary a half a shade. As many posts have said, wood selection, grain matching, and layout of individual boards are not anything that even crosses a production shops radar. This work borders on artistry in many cases. If the customer decides they want to split a single door into two on the diagonal it is possible, for a price.

Then it goes on to quality of construction, attention to detail, and customer contact with the manufacturer throughout the entire project. I would venture to guess if you asked most who make custom cabinets how many times they speak with the customer after their cabinet build starts, you would be surprised to hear that changes may be made, they may stop by the shop to see the progress, etc. Ask Diamond, or KraftMaid, if you can swing by the shop to see the construction. If you were to tally the total hours of contact from conception to completion the custom shop total will dwarf that of stock or semi custom cabinets (kitchen designer in the showroom being your only contact). Its true of anything custom, how many customers go to GM or Toyota to see their car being made, but how many times does someone like Chip Foose see his client when he is putting together a $500k custom car?

Last would be materials. A custom shop is not buying adhesives and finishes by the rail tanker load. Same for abrasives, fasteners and so on. Dont feel these items have a huge impact though the exception would be lumber cost. The cost of lumber and sheetgoods for a given kitchen is much much higher for a small shop buying material in smaller quantities and of higher quality in most cases than even high end production.

The issues of overhead arent really a factor in my opinion as they are simply the cost of doing business. Its an item that simply scales up or down with the size of the operation.

I personally feel much of it is due to the simple facts of operating with no boundaries and from scratch with a secondary issue being volume. Its why your grandmothers apple pie tastes so much better than hostess twinkies. Even if you gave her recipe to hostess, it wouldnt be as good a pie.

Mark

Greg Cuetara

02-08-2009, 11:07 AM

That was not part of your original question, and it is really irrelivent to what a product is worth. I can not afford a Porsche, but I do not attack their value because they are out of my price range.

I agree with Tony, and what the heck did you expect when you come on a woodworking forum and insult professionals. Just in case you are confused, I am disagreeing with your position.:)
..

Larry,
You are 100% correct that what the product is worth has nothing to do with how much someone makes or what they do. I am not sure how I am insulting professionals. When it comes down to it most professionals probably don't charge enough for what they do and what the provide. Thos Moser's shop is down the street from my house and they charge $4,500 for a chair. Is it worth it....the quality is there and yes it is worth it because it is ART. My impression is that most Professionals are Artists and that should be accounted for somewhere but people don't want to pay for it.

Back to the OP again, it is quality, experience and the Artistry involved which go into the price. It is worth it to some and not to others....I was told that is why they make chocolate and vanilla.
Greg

Will Blick

02-08-2009, 11:17 AM

To the OP.... your question was a fair one.... this is a Q&A forum... the range of answers, including those who sensed an insult demonstrate the diversity in the cabinet business.

I am impressed by the level of intelligence and insights of the cabinet makers on this forum. Today, being a craftsman is not enough, you must understand your market, your competition, and your business model. Many on this forum have an excellent grasp of these issues.

The responses above demonstrate how you can have a cabinet job in the same kitchen, which range from $10k DIY Borg stuff, or $70k from a high end custom shop. In either case, no one is getting rip'd off. However, this is a huge price swing... and the avg consumer who buys cabinets maybe once or twice in their lives struggle with this. How many other crafts offer such a wide range in pricing?

As mentioned previously, cabinets suffer this stigma because they are available at the Borg, or your buddies side business. However large architectural ww does not compete with the Borgs and garage shops, and therefore the high prices are accepted as "that's what it costs".

IMO, any field that people enter for the love of the craft, will suffer from this pricing issue. ww is clearly one of these fields, evidenced by the large hobbiest base. Plumbing is not a hobby. In general, plumbing is not an artform. Other than fixture selection, most of the plumbers work is not visible. It's a business, period. The Borg won't bid on your sewer pipe installation... in this regard, plumbers have less of the problem discussed here. They are forced to deal with illegals working for peanuts and unlicensed contractors, etc. but the cabinet field is not immune to that either.

I am not not defending plumbers or bashing cabinet makers..... just shedding some light on how certain fields fall into the issues discussed in this thread.

Interestingly enough, I learned the plumber who I awarded the subcontract to build my house in 02, was in the cabinet business for 20 years prior to starting a plumbing business. I asked why? He gave a simple answer, everyone wants to build cabinets, no one wants to unclog a toilet, so you can get a fair wage for doing it. Sad, but its the reality of the business world.... the laws of supply / demand dictate everything....

jack duren

02-08-2009, 12:55 PM

Im actually curious who that replied actually runs or works in a full time cabinet shop? Not as a hobby but as a first income....

Steve Griffin

02-08-2009, 3:58 PM

runs around $7K with installation included, no countertops. Dovetailed drawer boxes on full extension glides. Raised panel rail and stile doors and crown molding to trim it out. Lazy susans are built by me for maximum access and storage (no center poles). Cases are 3/4" thick throughout including the backs. My pricing allows a reasonable profit for my brother and myself after the material is purchased and provides excuses to buy additional equipment and upgrades for myself. Obviously this is not my main source of income. It is my outlet and I am satisfied with the return. How many kitchens would you like?

Ed

Sounds good. But, Hmmm. Lazy Susans?

Even without the center pole, they have less storage than a completely unused corner.

I did the math and you can too. Compare 2 linear feet of standard cabinets to two linear feet of akward bifold doors and a pac-man shaped spinning tray....

Even so, sounds like you got the business figured out!

-Steve

Steve Griffin

02-08-2009, 4:02 PM

Kevin Godshall

02-08-2009, 4:34 PM

The thing about cheaper factory cabinets is that:

In 20 years, the cheaper cabinets will in all likelihood need to be replaced.
In 20 years a custom wood kitchen will still be worth more than you paid for it.

I guess it depends on how much money matters to you and whether or not you want "disposable" short term junk in your house....

-Steve

This is a great point. I remember, one of the first questions I asked when taking a managerial role in the mass production facility, was....."How long can we make this many cabinets before the market is saturated?" (My shift alone was painting 10,000 doors and drawer fronts in an 8 hour shift).

The reply back was, "Well, I've been in this industry for over 20 years, and we are re-supplying a lot of the same customers we did when we started. As long as the cabinet's life expectancy is predictable, we are set for life".

A good share of our cabinets were purchased and installed as part of a home sale and the need to "cheaply upgrade" the kitchens and bathrooms in order to get a better market share.

jack duren

02-08-2009, 5:09 PM

Jim Finn

02-08-2009, 7:18 PM

What percentage of that cost is material vs. labor?
Everything is labor. Nature grows the trees, cost us nothing. The labor to plant harvest and mill it is all someones labor. Same is true of steel and gold. The raw materials are just laying there. Labor makes it into something we want.

Mark Bolton

02-08-2009, 7:51 PM

Im actually curious who that replied actually runs or works in a full time cabinet shop? Not as a hobby but as a first income....

Jack,
We dont run a full time cabinet shop. Our business is homebuilding and remodeling however we have always had a full shop associated with this business. While we dont often to full kitchens (its more cost effective to sub them out) we may spend days, or weeks at a time in the shop preparing for, or fulfilling, certain aspects of a given job.

We do, and have always done, a lot of custom built-in work along with a good bit of custom trim and millwork. As we speak we are in the process of setting up a full scale custom wood shop. This shop will as well focus on custom one-off's, built-in's, and a semi-stock production line. There will be no kitchen cabinets unless a juicy job happened along. Our area would have a hard time supporting a fully custom shop so it would be a tough row to hoe.

So its not cabs exclusively, but mostly all one-off custom work.

Mark

Ed Peters

02-08-2009, 8:31 PM

Sounds good. But, Hmmm. Lazy Susans?

Even without the center pole, they have less storage than a completely unused corner.

I did the math and you can too. Compare 2 linear feet of standard cabinets to two linear feet of akward bifold doors and a pac-man shaped spinning tray....

Even so, sounds like you got the business figured out!

-Steve

Personally, I wouldn't use lazy susans. In my home I have the corner cabs set at a 45 degree angle with 28" deep pullout shelves. My preference. I know, I am still losing space but I like the results and the space I am giving up is not substantial.

As to having it figured out, yes I do have a system. I can detail a kitchen in about 3 hours. Press a few keys and generate a detailed quotation with 3d elevations, a detailed work order with schedule, a detailed cut list with individual part labels, shop drawings and a list of inventory items(glides, hinges etc.). From there on it is just grunt work and repetition.

Ed

Peter Quinn

02-08-2009, 9:59 PM

Im actually curious who that replied actually runs or works in a full time cabinet shop? Not as a hobby but as a first income....

I for one do. I am a journeyman in a custom millwork and cabinet shop that makes everything from flooring to kitchens, built ins, entry ways, doors, furniture commissions. If its made from wood and it pays my boss will entertain it. Yup, 40-50 HRS a week I am making things from wood, sometimes I don't even know what exactly I am making when its parts for other smaller shops. It pays my bills, this is my third career and hopefully my last. I have never made less money or had more fun.

I have a small shop of my own that I work out of and do some work for others. Do I get angry or defensive when I hear "I can do it myself or get it at the home Depot for less!" No, in fact I laugh out loud typically in the person's presence, knowing that they were never my customer anyway. I listen when people ask me for things, and lots of people ask, and often I refer them to a big box outfit when i sense that is what they are searching for anyway. My motto is "Come to me when you can't do it and they couldn't help either"!

Bill Keehn

02-08-2009, 10:16 PM

As a former business owner (not woodworking related), I see some obvious confusion about something here. There was some debate about how people feel that price should not be determined by what they can afford to pay. Let me turn that around for you. Price should not be determined by what the product costs to make. Price is determined by whatever the market is willing to bear. There is a market for low-end high volume and a market for high-end low volume products. Somewhere in between the extremes is a sweet spot for most of you that will maximize your profit. It is your profit that is determined by costs.

I am certain that for most of you, your products are probably worth much more than you charge. But trying to justify price to your customers by pointing to costs is basically telling the customer "I am garaunteed to make a certain profit, so if my costs go up you will pay more but you get no additional value." This is just bad business. If you setting a certain price for your product because you can't afford to sell for less, then your business is already failing. You shouldn't adjust your prices based on what an individual client makes, but you should adjust your prices to choose the type of customer and business you want. The fact is people don't appreciate what they don't pay for and the more they pay the more it's appreciated. The customer expects the price to be higher than the cost, but they also expect the value to be greater than the price. It's your job to convince the customer that YOU are part of the value.

As a customer, if I ask you why your product is so expensive, I don't want to hear about costs -- it sounds like begging and I could care less. I'm basically opening the door and asking to hear your pitch about the quality differences and more importantly hear about how you stand behind your work. A good salesman would immediately seize upon that. If you tell me to shop at the BORG, then it just says that you aren't even willing to try to get my business, at which point I decide you don't deserve my business. If you don't like dealing with annoying customers, then you should acknowledge that you aren't a salesman and hire a good one.

Kelly C. Hanna

02-08-2009, 10:18 PM

I for one do. I am a journeyman in a custom millwork and cabinet shop that makes everything from flooring to kitchens, built ins, entry ways, doors, furniture commissions. If its made from wood and it pays my boss will entertain it. Yup, 40-50 HRS a week I am making things from wood, sometimes I don't even know what exactly I am making when its parts for other smaller shops. It pays my bills, this is my third career and hopefully my last. I have never made less money or had more fun.

I have a small shop of my own that I work out of and do some work for others. Do I get angry or defensive when I hear "I can do it myself or get it at the home Depot for less!" No, in fact I laugh out loud typically in the person's presence, knowing that they were never my customer anyway. I listen when people ask me for things, and lots of people ask, and often I refer them to a big box outfit when i sense that is what they are searching for anyway. My motto is "Come to me when you can't do it and they couldn't help either"!

Well said Paul...I agree completely!

I am only a part time cabinet maker...maybe once a year or so on an average over the last ten years. The project I am working on this next month [which started back in November] will be the finest I've ever done. I am not opposed to doing them, but with the cheapo cabinet shops we have in our area, it's tough to compete. I rarely get high end clients in my area, too many first time home buyers.

Greg Cuetara

02-08-2009, 10:43 PM

Bill,
Everything I was trying to say I think you just said.
Greg

Steve Rozmiarek

02-08-2009, 11:37 PM

Bill, you nailed it, and I'd also say that the attitude that the Home Depot comparing customer is already lost is hooey. That very type of remark is sometimes all that a good salesman needs to sell a better product. I think its called an uncover or something like that.

Neal Clayton

02-09-2009, 12:27 AM

It is that attitude why I have not been able to build a home yet. I went to a dozen builders and everyone looked at me and said, 'well you are building in this town so you can afford it." No I couldn't afford $200 / sq.ft. for a low end house.

in fairness, it's not the attitude's fault that small houses cost 200 dollars a foot, it's the fault of shady mortgage brokers, insurance companies, and wall street.

that and ignorant buyers.

and i also pretty much agree on everything bill said. i don't sell anything, all of my woodworking is toward the restoration of my own historic house. but if i did, i could easily show someone why a door or window or cabinet i built was better than a home depot wanna-be equivalent. and it has nothing to do with the cost of materials.

Frank Drew

02-09-2009, 12:53 AM

It should also be said that pricing isn't an exact science, which is rather what Bill was saying, I think. Price what the market will bear, is another way to put it.

"The customer expects the price to be higher than the cost, but they also expect the value to be greater than the price." Exactly, and another thing is to find that price point at which the customer has to think about it a bit but in the end decides he wants whatever it is you're offering. If you quote a price and the customer immediately says, "Great, I'll take it!", you've probably priced it too low :D.

Bill Keehn

02-09-2009, 1:51 AM

Frank, I hear that. :)

By the way, I don't claim to be a good salesman, but I certainly appreciate their value.

Around 12 years ago I owned a fairly good sized ISP. Besides being the first around to offer 56K dialup, we sold fiber optic access to businesses, web design, hosting, and other value added services. I started off with the cost plus model of pricing and I got a bunch of bargin hunters and whiners for customers. They were slow to pay and never appreciated any support they got, even though they were always taken care of. I started to dislike my customers. Finally I hired my first full time employee. He was a natural salesman. At his encouragement I raised our service rates substantially.

In a price competitive market, where others were charging $20 at most and sometimes $15 for dialup, I was charging $30 and getting it. That let me expand our services in other areas and hire other employees. We were winning business from older more established competitors left and right. All of this was due to my salesman establishing our reputation for "prompt friendly service". My job was simply to deliver on the promise, which was easy.

A year or so later I sold my interest in the company when broadband cable was introduced into the area. I could see the writing on the wall at that point. If ever I start another business, I can tell you one of my first employees is going to be a good salesman, even if he makes more money than me.

Rod Sheridan

02-09-2009, 11:29 AM

Great thread, some very informative and thought provoking posts. I learned a lot.

One item I thought curious was the comment about the plumber.

In Canada, Plumbers/Electricians etc are tradespeople, who have completed an apprenticeship and issued a trade certificate by a licensing body.

The licensing body can also remove your trade certificate for non professional/unsafe work.

In Canada this doesn't exist for cabinetmakers, is this true for the US also?

Regards, Rod.

Mike Robbins

02-09-2009, 11:49 AM

I understand that the wood and hardware itself isn't cheap, but I was wondering why custom kitchen cabinetry can cost $25k, $35k, or more? What percentage of that cost is material vs. labor? And is the customer paying more for the time that it takes to build them or the skill?

To the OP: Because better costs more to make in materials, time, and skill. It's really that simple. While there is some venom in this thread about this point, for a large part of the general population Borg Kraftmade are perfectly adequate, given the twenty-year lifetime of a kitchen in a mid-range home (~200K in the ATL) assuming they arrive at their destination in good shape, are inspected for manufacturing defects upon arrival, and are competently installed. However the relationship between those cabinets and the cabinets from a mid-high end custom shop is pretty much the same as the relationship between good custom entertainment center and the stuff at Ashley/Rooms to Go/etc... Both serve their function. One is a nice aesthetic addition to a room and a conversation piece that may make people go 'wow, nice', the other keeps your TV off the floor.

The challenge for the custom cabinet maker, which I really sympathise with, is how to differentiate your product to the consumer when the elements of design that are superior in your product are not clearly understood by the consumer or sometimes not clearly defined even in the trade. For example, what, exactly, constitutes adequate grain matching? How mismatched does the grain have to be before it constitutes a defect that the customer and demand replacement for?

It's a reasonable question for a consumer to ask a cabinet shop 'why should I pay more for this?' vs. BORG Kraftmade or whatever. I'm not saying anyone should put up with a crapload of attitude from someone who isn't willing to pay for more than the barely adequate, and is demanding excellence for the same price. What I am saying is that if you're in this business and aren't willing and able to have a reasonable and rational discussion with the customer about what you're offering and why it's better, then you shouldn't be dealing with customers.

The customer doesn't, and shouldn't, care about the costs or the value of labor by the craftsman in his shop. What they should care about is that an 15K kitchen in a 400K home is going to look like a 15K kitchen in a 400K home, but a well-done custom kitchen is going to look 'WOW'.

Dennis Thornton

02-09-2009, 11:57 AM

Another thing to consider. As the economy continues to be slow competition gets greater. I tend to go to most of the home improvement shows in our area. Years ago it was a standing joke between my wife and I about hot tubs. Every show had a high percentage of hot tub dealers, way too many for the size of the market.

In recent shows I've noticed 2 things. There are very few hot tub dealers and there are a lot of custom cabinet companies. I expected the drop in the hot tub dealers, not the increase in custom cabinet makers.

As for the custom cabinet makers my thoughts went like this - Wow, there sure are a lot of custom cabinet makers - These guys must really be scrambling to stay in business in this economy - A guy could probably get a good deal now (lots of competition and desperation to stay afloat) on a full kitchen - I'm glad I'm not starting a custom cabinetry shop. :(

Eric DeSilva

02-09-2009, 2:56 PM

This thread has posts that bother me because they come from people whose other posts I respect, but are totally misguided. I sure hope all you cabinet makers that say you throw people out of your shop, laugh at them, tell them to go to Ikea or Home Depot, or similar are engaging in idle rhetoric. You may build a kitchen a week, but how often does the average Joe buy a kitchen?

Putting aside what the average Joe knows about cabinets generally, you expect him or her to show up knowing why *your* cabinets are better than the custom cabinetmaker down the street? I've seen some custom cabinets where I'd rather have had Kraftmaid, and Kraftmaid actually represents pretty good value for certain types of work.

If I walk into your shop and say "why are your cabinet twice what I could get at Home Depot," I'm asking a serious question. What value are you going to deliver? Have I seen your cabinets before? How am I supposed to know that you dovetail your drawers from solid maple stock, as opposed to the guy down the street who butt joints 'em with thermal resin glue like the borg? How do I know you book match your panels and use 18mm baltic birch sides and backs if you don't tell me or show me? How do I know I'm not getting melamine covered particle board interiors if you don't take the time to tell me? How do I know that you are qualified to--and going to--take care to design a functional kitchen, and are fundamentally better at it than the guy at the borg with the computer? How do I know how much design flexibility I have if you don't tell me, or whether you have a small shop that has very specific sizing to fit your jigs? How do I know you hand pick your stock, as opposed to using every last inch of stuff that gets delivered by some truck from somewhere? How do I know you are going to sweat all the finish details and make the wood proud, as opposed to shooting a couple coats of poly and calling it a day?

When someone asks why you deserve more than the borg, its an invitation to show them your value proposition, not an insult. You know cabinets, and you know how you construct them. They don't. If you are gonna tell them to walk, that is potential business out the door. If you have so much business you don't give a damn, that's fine--perhaps your corpus of prior work has earned you the right to be a cantakerous bugger.

So, tell them WHY its value. If you started whinging about your costs being higher than the borg and how you need to save for retirement and get your kids new shoes, that doesn't speak to value to all. If I told my clients my rates are high because my costs are higher than my competitors and I need to make a profit, they would tell me to get more efficient.

In a society where people trade houses like underwear and 5-year ARMs are the norm, you aren't going to make a sale by telling someone you are installing an heirloom that can be passed down to future generations in their house. Chances are they aren't going to be in that house for that long. Tell them about the aesthetics of custom cabinets that create a "wow" factor that can't be duplicated by big box store cabinets, and how that differentiates their house from their neighbors (and other sellers in the neighborhood). Tell them about how you have created functional kitchens that have custom details that people remember and want to have--how you create kitchens that people want to live in and live with. Tell them how you will give them a beautiful space to use and a space that will increase the value of their home when it comes time to sell. Tell them the details you incorporate that they can be proud of and advertise to buyers when it comes time to sell. Show them your cabinets, point to the details that make it better, and send them to the borg to compare. If the value proposition is right, they will come back. Even if they don't come back this time--I say you may have a niche, but so does the borg--maybe they will come back the next time.

Face it. Not everyone will recognize your genius just by meeting you. You might have to lead them a bit.

Dennis Thornton

02-09-2009, 4:00 PM

Eric,
Good post! Very well said.

M. A. Espinoza

02-09-2009, 4:09 PM

The customer doesn't, and shouldn't, care about the costs or the value of labor by the craftsman in his shop. What they should care about is that an 15K kitchen in a 400K home is going to look like a 15K kitchen in a 400K home, but a well-done custom kitchen is going to look 'WOW'.

Bingo. Well said; the whole post actually but the last part really is what a custom shop has to get across.

As a craftsperson building quality is your job, but if you want to stay in business you probably aren't going to survive by only emphasizing this to clients. They just want to know its going to last.

People want the "Wow" and "Gee Whiz" if they are spending the extra $ for custom. They want to see it and they want to hear it from guests.

Sometimes I think my whole job (design wise) is getting customers beyond the rational and into the emotional mode.

jack duren

02-09-2009, 6:59 PM

"As for the custom cabinet makers my thoughts went like this - Wow, there sure are a lot of custom cabinet makers - These guys must really be scrambling to stay in business in this economy - A guy could probably get a good deal now (lots of competition and desperation to stay afloat) on a full kitchen - I'm glad I'm not starting a custom cabinetry shop."

Actually you wont. We are a three man shop and turn about 450,000. Bacause the economy hurt the larger 5 million dollar shops they just closed there doors. The left over contracts got spread out amongst the smaller shops. We are taking everything but pricing is firm and we are a bit selective on jobs.

Sometimes you might score a good deal but sometimes you end up getting corners cut to make up the loses. Hit or miss you just dont know...

Brian Effinger

02-09-2009, 7:26 PM

Wow, Eric! That was a good rant - I believe your thoughts are right on the money there, and you answered the OP's question. Well done! :)

Brian

Peter Quadarella

02-09-2009, 7:46 PM

Mark Bolton

02-09-2009, 8:26 PM

Steve Rozmiarek

02-09-2009, 9:30 PM

There's one thing being overlooked though. Telling people to show the good in their work is good advice. However, expecting all small cabinet shop owners to be salesmen, or to hire salesman, is a little misguided.

The fact is, making money is not the primary reason for existence for ALL small businesses. Many small businesses are run by people who love their company or their job. They may not enjoy being salesmen, and they may not enjoy hiring salesmen. If one of these people makes a good living, and enjoys their job, there is no reason they have to be salesmen also.

There may not be many people like that, but they are out there.

Peter, I'd argue that as a matter of fact, making money is actually the point of all small businesses, and that goal is not incompatible with enjoying your job. Also, if you are selling a product, how can you not be a salesman? Sales might continue in spite of the owners ineptitude, for a while, but it sure leave the business vulnerable to any competition. Customers who believe they are not treated well, but are forced to do business with a specific company, will be back as rarely as possible.

Karl Brogger

02-10-2009, 12:18 AM

The absolute best customers you can have are the ones who are trying to prove how trully succesfull they are by spending what little they have. Folks trying to keep up with the neighbors and just want to brag about what they spent. These tributes to materialism were my bread and butter for quite a while. So long as the check doesn't bounce, I'm more than willing to add to your illusions.:D

My worst tribute as a business owner is that I am not a salesman. Take it or leave it is kinda been my attitude with alot of things. I try to point out the benifits, if the customer can't see what having something that is trully designed around their whims, wants and needs then I'm probably not the best person to hire. Quality alone doesn't sell that well on its own, but it does build a reputation.

and I'm in this solely for the money. It stopped being fun a long time ago.

Bill Keehn

02-10-2009, 7:42 AM

I am one of them. I consider myself a good salesman however I loath self promotion and look to my work to do it for me, and it has for many many years. I can easily imagine if I were a shameless self promoter and an aggressive entrepreneur I could perhaps double or triple my gross annual sales, hire more staff, and *perhaps* make more money. That said, it would be coupled with a lot more headaches, a likely reduction in quality, and all the other associated issues.

My personal feeling is if someone is interested in earning an honest living doing what they love it is easily achievable letting the work speak for itself if their compensatory expectations are reasonable. If you are aiming for the stereotypical American dream of a 6k sq' house, three car garage, hummer, Mercedes, sitting in the office, or perhaps not at all, and not being out on the shop floor, then building the business is essential.

Mark

Mark,
if you aren't out to make a profit, then its a hobby. Nothing wrong with that at all. However hobbies are activities for people with other sources of income. If you are dependent on the income and are satisfied with what you make and don't have stiff competition, then I don't see a problem.

If what you love doing is working with wood, then time spent with customers can be a burden. That's where it is helpful to have someone to run the business side of things and talk to the customer and crunch the numbers, etc. There are people who enjoy doing that as much as you enjoy your work.

Sure, there is a little more overhead in having an employee, but if you just call them "sales and general manager" you can make them deal with most of it. When they aren't talking with a customer they can sweep up and help lift sheets of plywood :)

David Cramer

02-10-2009, 9:01 AM

If it hasn't already been said before, you HAVE to be some sort of a salesman. If I were a cabinetmaker and running my own business (not hobby), it would be essential.

One cannot bid, fabricate and install cabinets if one cannot sell them, period. This is not to say that you won't get any work, but that you won't reach your true potential.

Referrals are HUGE in any trade, but they can only take you so far, trust me, I know this first hand. You have to express your strong points verbally because you can bet the other 4 bidders are. I have been in the field and know first hand. Tell the truth about what you do and how you do it and let the cards fall where the fall.

There is a certain customer that will realize that your cabinets are built better, but still won't put out the money for many reasons (maybe they just can't afford it or can't justify the value). Others could care less about how well you made them and will compare them to the Home Center vendors till their last breath. Yet others will be happy with Mills Pride even if they could afford the best because they like the white look (I've seen that also, believe it or not). I don't "own" a cabinet shop, but have dabbled in a few things here and there.

My kitchen cabinets were $3,600 in May of 1997, a short 12 years ago. Solid maple drawer fronts with a raised panel for the doors and a clear finish. Our kitchen cabinets would now cost over $10,000 and they go UP from there. That is not installed.

We priced them recently for the "fun of it". I told my wife, be prepared to be shocked and she was. Keep in mind, that we are talking about a Home Center and they make huge dollars on installed sales. Home Depot netted 1.2 billion dollars in 2006, if my memory is correct. Cabinets are a HUGE part of that, and I do mean HUGE.

I know someone who was so busy that he could barely keep up with the demand (3 years ago) and had to max his credit cards to keep up with payroll until the checks actually started coming in from the Home Center. His company was 2nd in the country for installing cabinets for one of the big 3 Home Centers. Again, his company did not make them, but installed them.

Hey, just my personal take on the subject. The market is what the market is.

David

Dan Mages

02-13-2009, 1:01 PM

I don't know if I would always call Borg cabinets inexpensive. LOML and I were at the blue one and checked out the price for two 18"x36" white painted maple bathroom vanities with beadboard pannels. It came out to over 2k! That is twice what I was expecting from the Borg.

Once we are ready to do this bathroom project, I will probably see if there are any Creekers with cabinet experience in my area that can help me with this project.

Dan

Steve Clardy

02-13-2009, 1:43 PM

Gee this thread has bloomed. :D

I'll be back later. No time for me to add to the discussion right now.

Steve

Justin Green

02-13-2009, 3:22 PM

I don't think that the Borg cabinets are cheap, either. We priced some with what I'd consider decent features - solid plywood construction, solid drawer construction and slide hardware, etc., and it was not much cheaper than custom, plus I couldn't get a committment on installation costs. If you're paying $25-35k more for custom than the Borg, you're probably not comparing apples to apples by any means. They might LOOK alike on the outside...

When my wife and I started pricing options - with her liking the options that showed, and my adding options that didn't show - like the thicker plywood construction, upgraded slides, etc., the price soon rose dramatically, to where I'd be more inclined to hire a local, professional, custom cabinet guy because I know the install is going to go more smoothly. Borg will have to wait weeks to get a spacer board or trim piece ordered and shipped if the installers screw one up or misorder, which happens. Local guy goes back to the shop and mills a new one. You pay for this even though you can't see it in the end product.

1) Quality of build.
2) Quality of materials in many cases.
3) Installation smoothness.
4) Service after installation.

All of these you have to consider. And if you're the cabinet guy, it's better to explain this than to send someone packing because they ask the question.

This applies to everyone's job. I'm a CPA by day, and a $500 tax return isn't for everyone. H&R Block provides tax return service for much less. But there's differences in service and knowledge that makes the services of a tax accountant worth the extra money to many people. The same principles apply to almost everyone in every job.

jack duren

02-13-2009, 6:58 PM

Gee this thread has bloomed. :D

I'll be back later. No time for me to add to the discussion right now.

Steve

You aint missing much brother. Just a bunch of Blah blah;)....

Michael O'Sullivan

02-13-2009, 7:27 PM

All's I know is, when I was looking to remodel my 8x14 (if that) kitchen in my $150k apartment in a "transitional" neighborhood in NYC, a custom cabinetmaker quoted me $40k, HD Expo quoted $19k and a combination of Ikea, me, my wife and a friend did it for about $4k.

The point is that $40k of custom cabinetry would not have added close to that value to that apartment.

One important point that several people have made is that price is demand driven -- meaning that it is based on what people will spend. Your cost is the second calculation that you need to do in order to make sure that you can make money based on the relevant pricing.

Mark Bolton

02-13-2009, 8:25 PM

Sure, there is a little more overhead in having an employee, but if you just call them "sales and general manager" you can make them deal with most of it. When they aren't talking with a customer they can sweep up and help lift sheets of plywood :)

Bill,
I agree. I have read your reply many times. For us, its a tough leap to get to that point and the leap most often ends up in leaping, and leaping, and leaping. No different than any other company, it just seems a lot harder to deal with when your small. We have recently downgraded from a half a dozen employees to a couple part timers we can grab when we need them. I truley wish I still had them but this came from an utter frustration of dealing with, and managing employees. I realize fully it is common place for any company trying to grow itself. We struggle greatly with the concessions that must be made when you include someone in the process (I wanted to insert creative there) and at least for us the gains dont often outweigh the losses, and I am not talking financial.

I have been involved with companies in the past where the owners search a lifetime for "the one". I am just not sure I have the tenacity to persevere through that wait. We are all too accustomed to hearing "they will never see that", "that will be hidden inside xyz, why worry about it", on and on.

I feel old in saying it (only 41) but there are not many young people, young adults, or even adults, out there who are willing to really spend a year, getting paid mind you, absorbing what it is you do, and the way you want to work. All the while they are seeing someone who is working twice the hours for half the pay because its what they enjoy. It goes back to my statement about being reasonable about compensation. If we were making widgets I would care a bit less, but it of course isnt widgets.

Mark

Peter Quinn

02-13-2009, 8:26 PM

It seems the notion of an angry cabinet maker throwing a client out of the showroom or shop for asking a simple question has been largely overstated as this thread grows. When you are a small business owner you have limited time and must spend it wisely. When you are a part time business owner, you have even less time. When you get a call from a window shopper who starts trying to talk your price down like they were in a used car lot, it is essential to send them on their way or give them an opportunity to decide if they are serious about custom cabinets or fishing for a bargain. These people, while a scant minority thankfully IME, really do exist. This is a far different scenario from educating a potential client as to the particulars of your custom service and build quality, and it is a far different question from "Why is your product so much more expensive than the home center." That one I would be glad to spend hours answering with a follow up tour of the local home center to explain in person what makes their product inferior. Bet they would love that.

I doubt many small cabinet shops are chasing away potential good clients with bellicose behavior. It is important to sell your work but also important to weed out serious inquiries from dead ends. Some you figure out quickly, others take time. Non verbal queues, attitude, the response to a rough estimate, you figure out if the client and the shop are a good fit and move forward or don't. It is a relationship and both parties have the right to engender it or not based on their needs. With some clients you may flirt for years until that first job so its important to keep a dialog and an open mind. I for one certainly take serious inquires seriously and treat respectful people with respect. But I am not a wood whore willing to accept the distain and abuse of every would be customer to cinch a sale and get their money. They get sent packing. Maybe I'll get their but I'm not their yet!:D

Peter Quinn

02-13-2009, 8:38 PM

Funny thing just popped into my head. A dear neighbor recently put a home center Kraft made kitchen into her 1800's victorian home. It fit her budget and needs, looked pretty good when they were done installing. She approached me when they were almost done concerning an issue with the fridge cubbie. The fridge (sold to her by the designer at the home center) was going to be conspicously proud of the front of its box, there were elevation issues with the existing trim in the house relative to extending it, and the installer was not equipped to modify the boxes significantly.

She apologized for not considering me for the cabinets but felt she could not afford custom work. She asked me for a solution to the fridge issue. We talked about what she wanted, I measured, I thought about it, went online, and found her a euro fridge that fit the stock cabinets, which cost more than the original fridge, but less than the sum of the first fridge and my potential work. Yes, she called for a cabinet, I sent her packing, I sold her a fridge! I am not in the appliance business so I got no commission, but I am happy she is happy. Not every customer is my customer.

Greg Cuetara

02-13-2009, 10:44 PM

Yes, she called for a cabinet, I sent her packing, I sold her a fridge! I am not in the appliance business so I got no commission, but I am happy she is happy. Not every customer is my customer.

Peter,

That is how business should be done, working for the best interest of the customer. I admire and respect you for finding a solution to the problem.

Greg

Steve Clardy

02-15-2009, 3:25 PM

You aint missing much brother. Just a bunch of Blah blah;)....

Oh ok. I'll go back to sleep.

:D

Stan Urbas

02-15-2009, 5:55 PM

Why is anything so expensive - or so cheap? It is - or should be - a matter of simple economics. I start out by seeing what the competition is priced at and price mine out there in the mix. I also keep track of what it is costing me to build the stuff. Then I start taking orders. If I can't keep up with the demand I raise my prices. If I'm not getting the jobs I lower my prices. But if I have to lower them so far I can't make a decent living I'll have to find something else to do.

I'm always trying to lower my costs and reduce my taxes in order to maximize my profit. I also try to find a nitch, so that my product is unlike most others. I could make the same thing you could buy at Home Depot, but then I couldn't compete on price. So mine has to be different - better - worth the higher price.

As to the question of labor, it depends on how you define it. For example: since we build up all our doors from scratch, our labor cost on a door is high. But for someone who buys the doors from a jobber, the labor cost is zero and the component cost is 100%.

So why are custom cabinets so expensive? Because that is what people are willing to pay to get them.

Steven Perry

03-08-2011, 4:22 PM

Custom cabinets are more expensive than stock cabinets. This is due to a variety of factors, but it the higher price for custom shouldn't be a surprise. Stock cabinets are made in bulk and have limited size and style options. Custom, on the other hand, is made to your exact specifications and, as such, takes more time - and ultimately money, to produce. Although more expensive, custom cabinets can often times be made of higher quality material and better craftsmanship, as well as look nicer once installed.

Dennis Thornton

03-08-2011, 5:48 PM

Kind of an old thread to be resurrecting, ya think?

Brad Shipton

03-08-2011, 6:14 PM

Steven, two old post resurrections and you are banned. :) This is an 09 thread.

Welcome to the group.

Brad

fRED mCnEILL

03-08-2011, 7:21 PM

As a side business I build "tack" lockers and trunks for horsey people. They are VERY nice but VERY expensive. When anyone suggests that they are expensive my response is "yes , the're not for everyone".

Dave Zellers

03-08-2011, 7:32 PM

I've never understood what was wrong with reviving an old thread.

Although in this case, he seems to be promoting a business.

Edit: Ken Fitzgerald removed the link which I was referring to.

Keith Avery

03-08-2011, 10:33 PM

I really enjoyed reading this thread. We built our current home about 4 years ago during the housing boom and it isn't large but it was very expensive on per sqft basis. I really wanted to have custom cabinets but didn't get them in the end. After looking at several custom jobs(2 of them more than 100k in cabinets) I really did not think the workmanship was as good as some of the better volume brands. I ended up with Omegas that are nice and seem well built but wish I could have found a real craftsman, as a hobby wood worker I occassionally look at the solid door fronts and think how difficult it must have been to do such a bad job matching the grain on some of the doors. I would have gladly paid 10k more if I thought the cabinets were going to be better but I just didn't have the time to find the right person. Building a custom home truly from scratch, we had to make literally ten of thousands of choices and there simply was not the time to find the right cabinet maker. When I build my next house I may have to ask some Creekers for a great craftsman in my area.

Rick Fisher

03-08-2011, 11:56 PM

Not sure what is wrong with reviving an old thread, but I don't know everything.. lol

I read the whole thing, from the beginning.. it was an informative thread ..

Mike Mastin

03-09-2011, 7:36 AM

Agree, lots of great insight. Not sure what is wrong with reviving a thread that is so informative.

Bob Riefer

03-09-2011, 8:57 AM

I just bought cabinets for my kitchen and considered the custom route. I had referrals to high quality craftsman, but in the end I found that at (literally) double the price at least, it was difficult to justify at this time in my financial life. And I really wanted to justify it, believe me.

The other thing I noticed was that is was really pulling teeth to get a rough estimate on cost. I understand there are a lot of variables, but for many consumers in this economy especially, price is very important.. It would benefit the seller (cabinet maker) to have a "rule of thumb" pricing scenario so that shoppers can more easily compare to other options - not only does it make the process feel more transparent (i.e. less intimidating to the buyer), but it saves the seller time by kicking sticker shock tire kickers out of the process earlier with less time spent making home visits etc.

Darrin Vanden Bosch

03-09-2011, 9:33 AM

The customer is paying for the time to use the skill.

Lou Ortiz

03-09-2011, 10:15 AM

Bill,

Great points and good honest answer to a straightforward question.

As a woodworker and a consumer, I can recognize the value of custom furniture or cabinets. I can then choose to pay the higher costs for quality or go for convenience. Berating someone for wanting to become an informed consumer seems wrong.

Lou

Don Morris

03-09-2011, 10:55 AM

Expertise is worth lots of money. There's an old story: An engineer was called to a South American country because the frame on a large factory being built started to twist. He looked at the frame, walked over to a certain beam and asked for a 1" wrench. They got him the proper wrench and he turned a bolt. The entire building frame straightened out. He went home and sent them a $50,000.00 bill. They said "All you did was tighten one bolt". His answer was "Yes, but I knew which bolt to tighten". When you buy quality cabinets, you not only pay for the time and materials, you are paying for the expertise to make them. Or another story: A dentist was called and the person asked how much does a two surface filling cost? His answer was "About $2.00". "That's amazing", said the person, "The Dentist down the street wants $150.00 for a two surface filling". "Oh", said the Dentist, "You want me to put it in the tooth." Everyone talks about time and materials, but to me it's the expertise that is the critical factor and the one which in many cases should demand the most portion of the cost.

Jason White

03-16-2011, 4:27 PM

Build a couple of cabinets yourself and you'll see why they cost so much. ;)

Steve Jenkins

03-17-2011, 9:51 AM

One thing I tell people is go to the hardware store and buy a 1/4-20 machine screw for about 30 cents then go to a machine shop and ask what it will cost to make one. Think about how it is done and the tools required to do it.

David Weaver

03-17-2011, 11:11 AM

Sometimes I think my whole job (design wise) is getting customers beyond the rational and into the emotional mode.

This is very important. Like custom anything else, it is not intended for the frugal part of the population who likes to do things themselves and doesn't care what someone else thinks of their kitchen.

If you always make a rational money decision about home improvements, you won't make many other than maybe some energy efficiency type improvements.

I'm not a custom kitchen buyer kind of guy. I can't take it with me, and it is *rare* that a $60,000 kitchen adds $60k to the sale value of a house. For someone who values it as $60,000 worth of feeling good, though, it's worth $60,000 - their money, their decision.

But there just isn't a way to get custom decision making and custom wide open options on a commodity basis. It isn't just the cabinets. When you start looking at shelling out big money for custom tile jobs, custom plumbing fixtures, custom countertops, custom hardware, custom flooring, super high $$ low reliability appliances that cost tons to fix, the cabinets are but a fraction of it.

You might get the sense that I'm not much into the "look at my house" crowd. That would be a good inference. I look at the stuff and think "what a waste, i guess people have different perceptions than I do regarding what makes them happy"

... but I wouldn't hesitate to build and sell something to that crowd were that my business. A lot of us wouldn't be very happy getting ourselves as customers. Selling to people who have a lot of money and who are easily parted from it is good business, even for the honest businessperson (who does give those people value for the dollar).

Richard McComas

03-17-2011, 3:06 PM

runs around $7K with installation included, no countertops. Dovetailed drawer boxes on full extension glides. Raised panel rail and stile doors and crown molding to trim it out. Lazy susans are built by me for maximum access and storage (no center poles). Cases are 3/4" thick throughout including the backs. My pricing allows a reasonable profit for my brother and myself after the material is purchased and provides excuses to buy additional equipment and upgrades for myself. Obviously this is not my main source of income. It is my outlet and I am satisfied with the return. How many kitchens would you like?

Ed

The price of custom cabinets vary greatly over geographical areas. In Anchorage Alaska you'd go broke doing kitchens at 7000 a pop. And there are many places in country it would cost more that here.

Orion Henderson

03-17-2011, 3:34 PM

Jeff, I make furniture for a living, but hired Crown-Point to make my kitchen. This is my kitchen (my kitchen is the one in the photos), $27,000.00 in cabs alone (in 2003). I wouldn't do it for that. Counting finished side panels, there are 50 'doors'.

http://www.crown-point.com/styles/ac/ArtsandCrafts1.html
.

Hey, thanks for choosing my hardware! Nice kitchen, CP is good people.

Jon Middleton

03-18-2011, 2:11 AM

First post here. I'm an amateur, mostly build solid wood stuff, only use plywood for backs of cabinets. I'm slow, though, and we're doing remodels on two bathrooms and one powder room. We'll have about 19' of base cabinets, using cherry (pre-cat finish) for all but the master, which will be maple with gloss white conversion varnish. Top drawers will be slab, the rest will be five piece drawer fronts. Blum soft-close undermounts, maple drawer parts, dovetail joinery with the bottoms captured all four sides. Carcasses are to be particle board with veneer outside, thermofused melamine inside. We have three widely varying bids, from $5200 to over $10K.

Couple of questions:

Is there anything wrong with particle board carcass construction with confirmat screws?

What is a fair price for this job?

phil harold

03-18-2011, 12:55 PM

If you have to ask how much, you cant afford it!

I like clients that ask "When?"

Greg Portland

03-18-2011, 12:58 PM

A more interesting question for me is how do local custom cabinet makers compete against a carpenter who orders custom cabinets online? These cabs are built in $5M-$10M production facilities in a semi-custom manner (finish & style choices are limited but sizes are not). These cabinets are made with high quality materials and methods (solid wood frames and doors, high end hinges & slides, dovetails & strong carcass construction, etc.). Often a salesperson from the factory will assist in the design to ensure that everything makes sense visually and in terms of construction (are the doors opening in the right direction, will they hit the dishwasher, etc., etc.).

Greg Portland

03-18-2011, 1:04 PM

Is there anything wrong with particle board carcass construction with confirmat screws?I would only worry about the base getting wet (soaked due to tub or toilet overflow, etc.). Solid wood handles water immersion much better than particle board. Maybe they can build the toe kicks with solid wood and the rest out of particle board. Particle board + confirmat screws is obviously not the "best" but it has it's place @ a certain budget.

Tim Null

03-19-2011, 7:16 PM

I have seen pictures of David's work. It is worth whatever he charges. Just beautiful!

I run a consulting firm for worker's compensation in California. Besides written evaluations, I teach classes to attorneys and adjusters to do what I do and also appear as a witness at trials. A 4 hour class for 10-20 people runs $2,500.00. A half day appearance as a witness is $2,000.00 plus travel expenses. This may seem like a lot compared to what others charge, but my fees are not negotiable. It is what I charge and what I will do those tasks for. If they do not want to pay for my services, they are welcome to go elsewhere. I learned long ago to list my fees as expected. When you feel that your fees are worth your work, then the client will as well. It's like dogs, they can smell fear! LOL If you think you are overcharging, then you are. I know I am worth what I charge, because I am very good at what I do and there are not very many others who do or can do what I do.

I used to sell high end bicycles from custom builders, in the distant past, so I know what the one gentleman is saying about sales. I was good at sales, because I believed that the bikes I sold were better than the cheaper, mass produced bikes and I could convey that to my customers. Once they picked up on my passion for the product, price was not a big issue.

If you do not believe that your product is worth what you are selling it for, your customers will not believe it either. If you do and treat the price as a simple fact and that the customer should not be surprised, then 9 times out of 10 they will not object either. The occasional customer may be surprised at first, but if you explain matter of factly the value that is included, most will agree.