First Project and wow is wood expensive

[Blake Barr]

Hello!

I'm a brand new woodworker and having gone through a tool collection phase I feel ready to take on a first project. I decided to make a cabinet for my sister to do hair with at home. She still lives with the folks so the design is intentional for the space and has dictated the size/shape etc of the wood used. I plan to construct the carcass out of MDF or cheap ply as it will be painted but I wanted to use tiger/curly maple for the doors and do a modern slab design on the doors. After calculating everything out I needed 2 32x26" (approx) doors. Basically I calculated I needed 6 10'x8" 4/4 boards to make book matched doors. I brought up on a bf calc and I it came out to 40bf total.... and at 5.25 a bf it was :eek: $210 :eek:....

So do they make curly maple veneered MDF core ply or do I need to get a good resaw blade and make my own veneered MDF doors?

[Ryan Baker]

Good luck finding tiger maple with nice figure for 5.25. $200 isn't bad. You're going to add almost that much for the MDF too. Get used to it. You haven't even gotten to the expensive wood yet.

Yes, you can buy figured maple veneer and go that route if you choose. It probably won't save you as much as you think, especially after you factor in the extra materials, tools, and effort it will take to apply the veneer well. I wouldn't put veneer over MDF anyway -- though you can probably get away with it if it stays dry.

Have fun with it whichever way you choose to go.

[Blake Barr]

I'm going off the price list at my "local" hardwood dealer (http://www.highlandhardwoods.com/retail-hardwood-lumber.html) they list 5.25 for soft curly maple (I honestly don't know the diff between hard/soft curly maple). I'm going to head up there tomorrow. It'll be my first trip to an actual hardwood dealer so it should be eye opening and fun to go see all the woods I've been reading about in person.

[Peter Quinn]

You can get any custom plywood laid up you want, not sure it will be cheaper or not. Minimum quantities might get in your way. For instance a single sheet of AA plywood in a vaguely figured veneer sells for in the neighborhood of $280? So you might want to make a few more doors than two with even a single sheet.

I'd go with making my own with an 1/8" veneer (curly on the outside, whatever on the inside). If not, check with Roberts Plywood at getwood.com. There is a West Coast supplier I can't seem to remember or find currently.

[Blake Barr]

that sounds like a reasonable reason to buy a resaw blade and fence for my bandsaw.... the plywood route would be "easier" but I want to work with some real hardwood lumber. Every project I have ever done is utilitarian and centers around a sheet or two of MDF so making my own veneer would be preferable. I don't own a vac press though so I'd have to rig up my own small manual veneer press........

As for suppliers I'm in New England so east coast works fine... thanks for the tips...

[Greg Cuetara]

Blake,
Enjoy your trip to HH. They are great up there and have some really great wood. If you have questions ask the guys there as they are very helpful. When you go in just walk through the front door and right through the next set of doors to the warehouse. They do have a shorts area where the lumber is discounted a bit and sometimes they have specials once in a while. Every saturday I have been in there it has been very quiet so the guys have been helpful.

I am on a cherry kick right now and they have s2s cherry skip planed to 7/8 for $2.40 bd.ft. When I go I usually pull out every board and pick through till I find what I want for sizes, color etc. So far their cherry special has been some curly cherry which when finished is spectacular. Don't be bashful about picking through what they have just put it back neatly and no one will care. If you are looking at buying curly maple in the rough you may want to bring a small block plane to see what the figure is on each board. I have never done that before so talk to the guys before you start planning away.

Back to your OP. Solid wood is expensive especially quality wood which is why good furniture is so expensive. As others have said on this forum the cost of the wood is a small cost in the overall grand scheme of the project. Look at how much time you will spend putting everything together along with how much you have spent on tooling your shop and finishing supplies.

Good Luck and have fun.
Make sure you give yourself enough time and after your stop to HH go down the street to Brentwood Machine and take a look at the big iron.

Greg

[Blake Barr]

Good Luck and have fun.
Make sure you give yourself enough time and after your stop to HH go down the street to Brentwood Machine and take a look at the big iron.

Greg

That sounds great! It's nice to hear I can spend some time taking in all that is offered. I wanted to break away for the last couple months to just go look but they where closed over the holidays (which gave me time to drop into brentwood machine) and I've been busy all Jan. I'm excited to go! I understand in the long run wood isn't expensive compared to the quality but my sis doesn't have much money and I'm not in a spot to supplement her... I'm just glad to have a project!

As for big iron I've been swooning over big jointers/planers.... I have my eyes peeled for a CL deal....

[Greg Cuetara]

As for big iron I've been swooning over big jointers/planers.... I have my eyes peeled for a CL deal....

Not if I see one first :)

[Frank Drew]

After calculating everything out I needed 2 32x26" (approx) doors. Basically I calculated I needed 6 10'x8" 4/4 boards to make book matched doors. I brought up on a bf calc and I it came out to 40bf total....

Blake,

Maybe it's my rusty math skills, or maybe I misunderstood the details of your project, but do you really need 40 bf to make two 32"x26" doors ?

[Blake Barr]

Blake,

Maybe it's my rusty math skills, or maybe I misunderstood the details of your project, but do you really need 40 bf to make two 32"x26" doors ?

the doors are 26 and 9/16th wide

3/4 in doors yah... wait....

36" x 8" would yield 1/4 of a panel after milling...

so 36" x 8 panels = 288" of 4/4 8" wide and with milling losses I figured 6 10" x 8" boards would get me there ...

wait....

(288 X 8 X 1) / 144 = 16bf....................................... I messed that up somehow... that's less than $100.... nice... now how did I screw that up? maybe I was thinking of 8/4 for doing book matching (higher $$ per bf than 5.25 anyways and I don't have a resaw blade...)

I would hope the "waste" I'd rip off would be enough for the face frames....

thanks for pointing that out

[Brent Leonard]

you can build your own GOOD furniture, alot cheaper than buying real handmade hardwood furniture, but I doubt you will be able to build your good furniture cheaper than the mass produced furniture at the wharehouse furniture stores.

I think alot of people, myself included, get into woodworking to save money on our furniture, then end up doing it for the enjoyment and quality of our own work.

wood is expensive. good wood, even more so. but boy is it nice!!

[Craig T. Smith]

Blake, Welcome. When I started getting into woodworking I thought about all this money I was going to save then I checked out pricing Wow what an eye opener. But since I was in it for a hobby, stress reliever and fun I could justify it. I had to make something for my step son to bring my wife around though. Learn ahve fun and enjoy. Happy Woodworking, Craig

[Rob Young]

Yes, good quality hardwood is expensive. But if you are doing this as a hobby then it is reasonable to use $0 for labor and overhead when comparing costs of a piece you build to something of comparable quality you could purchase.

In my fevered little brain, I have accepted the $0 labor/overhead argument for myself because I am taking a long view of getting several large projects done. I will still buy manufactured furniture when appropriate (need it now, etc) but for certain pieces I have resolved to build them myself and not worry about the material cost. Worry only about the design and finished piece asthetics.

Oh, and if you haven't already started using a spreadsheet to help you figure matierals and even some very rough cutting diagrams (stay flexible when figuring out how to extract workpieces from rough pieces) I suggest get comfortable with a spreadsheet. You can tell cells to format in decimal or fractional numbers. A free application, OpenOffice (www.openoffice.org (http://www.openoffice.org) I think) is a full featured office suite with spreadsheet, word processor, presentation creator apps that are just as good as MSOffice. Just a plug for one of my favorite pieces of free software...

[Blake Barr]

Well I suppose that is a good way to look at it. I'm getting a shop table put together right now so that once the maple has a chance to dry and acclimate to my shop I can start milling. I ended up with 22bf of maple for $118.75. I'll post some pics up when it's done...

[Neal Clayton]

Hello!

I'm a brand new woodworker and having gone through a tool collection phase I feel ready to take on a first project. I decided to make a cabinet for my sister to do hair with at home. She still lives with the folks so the design is intentional for the space and has dictated the size/shape etc of the wood used. I plan to construct the carcass out of MDF or cheap ply as it will be painted but I wanted to use tiger/curly maple for the doors and do a modern slab design on the doors. After calculating everything out I needed 2 32x26" (approx) doors. Basically I calculated I needed 6 10'x8" 4/4 boards to make book matched doors. I brought up on a bf calc and I it came out to 40bf total.... and at 5.25 a bf it was :eek: $210 :eek:....

So do they make curly maple veneered MDF core ply or do I need to get a good resaw blade and make my own veneered MDF doors?

maybe it's just me, but i'd prefer something that is made out of solid cypress @ 2 bucks per board foot than something fake with a high dollar veneer on top. insert whatever other inexpensive local relatively knot-free lumber you have in lieu of cypress.

[Larry Fox]

Solid wood is expensive especially quality wood which is why good furniture is so expensive. As others have said on this forum the cost of the wood is a small cost in the overall grand scheme of the project. Look at how much time you will spend putting everything together along with how much you have spent on tooling your shop and finishing supplies.

I agree 100% here. When balanced against the time, effort and care that goes into your projects the wood is a small part of it and not worth compromising on or working with sub-par materials. That doesn't mean that you need to use waterfall bubinga for drawers but the incremental increase in cost for tiger maple over standard maple for a project where I thought the tiger maple was called for would be a no-brainer for me. I build so few projects that I won't consider skimping on wood or finishing supplies - just not worth it and represents a false ecomomy for me.

[David Keller NC]

"(288 X 8 X 1) / 144 = 16bf....................................... I messed that up somehow... that's less than $100.... nice... now how did I screw that up? maybe I was thinking of 8/4 for doing book matching (higher $$ per bf than 5.25 anyways and I don't have a resaw blade...)"

It's easy to do - I didn't see your original post until this morning, but immediately knew it was way off. You'll develop a feel for the amount of wood that you'll need for projects pretty quickly to recognize whether you've made a mistake or not.

One other comment - you really should be buying 4/4 rough stock for panels in doors, and the finished panels should ideally be no more than 3/8" thick to keep the weight off of the hinges. You should be able to find a local woodworker in your area through either a club, or even through Sawmill Creek that can teach you to re-saw accurately. Assuming the 4/4 boards you buy are not badly cupped or twisted, you should be able to get two 3/8 planks out of one 4/4 board with room to spare.

Finally, about the plywood/mdf thing. There are certainly some applications where plywood and mdf are highly appropriate and the best choice - a painted kitchen, for example. However, what you have in mind is no place for plywood or MDF (tiger maple doors on a plywood carcass?). Moreover, you've going to find out pretty quickly that plywood is more expensive than solid wood unless you're talking exterior construction grade plywood.

Baltic Birch or apple ply is the minimum quality level for a nice piece of furniture, and it's expensive. Plywood with figured veneer will be extremely expensive. A better way to save money is to build the carcasse in a solid, matching wood of a lesser figure than your doors.

[Prashun Patel]

Am I dense? 2 x 32 x 26 = 1664 sq in / 144 = 11.5 bdft.
Even accounting for waste, how did you arrive at...er, nev mind; just read last post.

[Chip Lindley]

Yeah! DUHH! At least the error was in YOUR favor!

High cost of hardwood at *dealers* sends many woodworkers into the countryside to sawmills or other sources for rough lumber. I bought over 600 bf of cherry for $400 at a farm auction in '07. Bargains are out there if you have a means to haul your *booty* home!

[Paul Johnstone]

Hello!

So do they make curly maple veneered MDF core ply or do I need to get a good resaw blade and make my own veneered MDF doors?

I think I need to agree with the other poster on one point.. Why put such beautiful maple doors on an MDF carcass? MDF is really a poor choice, IMO.

I don't think you need to use baltic birch for good painted, but get a decent piece of plywood.. maybe shop grade or "B/C". It's really not that much more expensive than MDF... maybe $10-15/sheet. MDF sawdust is also much more damaging for your health than regular sawdust.

[Art Davis]

One of the biggest problems I have, as a beginner, is that the mistakes are so expensive because of the price of wood. Even doing things with poplar is expensive.

So I've tried doing things with fir as practice. But therein lies a fallacy, too, because soft wood just doesn't work like hard wood.

Don't want to waste wood with my surface planer, so I have tried working with standard one by material. But then surfaces don't match evenly and wood movement causes problems.

Clearly a lot to learn, and I guess education is expensive, hunh?

[David Keller NC]

"One of the biggest problems I have, as a beginner, is that the mistakes are so expensive because of the price of wood. Even doing things with poplar is expensive."

Hmmm - Not sure of your perspective on this, but a 6" wide, 10' long poplar board can be had in the East for about $15 without even trying too hard. That's really inexpensive by most people's calculations - about 3 lunches at an inexpensive fast food place.

Perhaps in Oregon a different selection other Poplar would be more economical - I've a feeling you could come up with quite a bit of alder, so-so maple, or other inexpensive hardwoods from Craig's list - there's always someone with a Woodmizer cutting up local trees and selling them cheap.

[Chris Padilla]

I'd like to address the bandsaw/resaw blade route. With wood getting pricey and large figured boards very expensive due to low supply, learning about veneering may be the way to go in the future.

I'd encourage you to visit VeneerSupplies (http://www.veneersupplies.com/) and Joewoodworker (http://www.joewoodworker.com/) and start reading up and learning about pressing veneers. There is a lot to take in.

I've been doing lottsa resawing of walnut for veneering in my current Tansu (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=92396) project. I've really enjoyed it and have learned a lot.

[Montgomery Scott]

$5.25bd ft doesn't even come onto the radar for expensive wood. I've paid up to $500/bd ft for flawless high grade desert ironwood burl; the most expensive of my ~60 species of wood I have on hand.

[Blake Barr]

A couple things. First on the MDF carcass, it's a cost issue, my sister is paying so I really have no choice. A painted $26 MDF carcass will make her happy and keep costs down. Also the cabinet is being specifically built to fit into a corner so down the road when it's moved there will be a chance to "do it right"

Secondly the cost doesn't shock me when it's in the $100ish range. I was expecting that but when I miscalced the bf and came up over $200 I was a little shocked...

I do se myself buying from mills in the future and I know there are some around so on my next projects (some end tables for the family and a plasma TV cabinet with lift) I will probably shop around for wood considering the amount I'll need.

On resawing, I'm intrigued and would love to do it now but my bandsaw needs some investment before it's resaw capable. It's a rockwell/delta 28-200 with a 1 1/4hp motor iirc but there is no fence and all the blades are 1/8" or so. I need a resaw blade and a fence at least and I just don't have the money right now to get it set. I'd also like to get the 12 1/2" riser for it...

Anyways thanks for the feedback! I love forums, I started in car audio which led me to woodworking (I assure you my first pure MDF woofer box was a horrendous visually but at least it was airtight) years ago buy researching and asking questions via forums. I love the wealth of knowledge available and the amount of people willing to pitch in good ideas...

[Neal Clayton]

One of the biggest problems I have, as a beginner, is that the mistakes are so expensive because of the price of wood. Even doing things with poplar is expensive.

So I've tried doing things with fir as practice. But therein lies a fallacy, too, because soft wood just doesn't work like hard wood.

Don't want to waste wood with my surface planer, so I have tried working with standard one by material. But then surfaces don't match evenly and wood movement causes problems.

Clearly a lot to learn, and I guess education is expensive, hunh?

art, this is where you should be taking advantage of the computer age ;).

i build plenty of things that are beyond my ability to visualize in my mind, without 1000 and 1 errors. but the computer doesn't lie, nor does it forget.

if you draw out something in sketchup and have machines capable of the accuracy needed from the drawing, the rest becomes very manageable.

btw, if you could save wood by not using jointers and planers, people wouldn't buy them. you can't. i don't buy surfaced lumber but even if i did i'd expect to have to square them myself.

[Scott duprat]

Make sure to check out the slabs section, white pine and soft maple. Also there are two other dealers in that area. One is Northand Forest Products, Kingston. Northland is smaller, northeastern hardwoods, no exotics, prices on par with Highland. The other is Goose Bay Lumber/sawmill, on route 4 Epsom, a little fatrher north but worth the drive. Mostly local woods, lots of Maples, some softwoods, boat building supplies. A little more pricy, but some unique stuff. Turning blamks also.

Always been treated good by Highland. Remember to acclimate the wood as it may be kiln or air dried, it is in basically a barn.

Have fun.

[Art Davis]

art, this is where you should be taking advantage of the computer age ;).

i build plenty of things that are beyond my ability to visualize in my mind, without 1000 and 1 errors. but the computer doesn't lie, nor does it forget.

if you draw out something in sketchup and have machines capable of the accuracy needed from the drawing, the rest becomes very manageable.

btw, if you could save wood by not using jointers and planers, people wouldn't buy them. you can't. i don't buy surfaced lumber but even if i did i'd expect to have to square them myself.

So---what kind of computer software do you use, Neal? Sketchup? And the next question---how do you use it?

Art

[Chris Padilla]

Google Sketch Up and start with the online tutorials, Art. Everything is free except your time (and that may be as well!)

It isn't difficult to work but like anything, you have to play with it to get comfy with it.

[Blake Barr]

Make sure to check out the slabs section, white pine and soft maple. Also there are two other dealers in that area. One is Northand Forest Products, Kingston. Northland is smaller, northeastern hardwoods, no exotics, prices on par with Highland. The other is Goose Bay Lumber/sawmill, on route 4 Epsom, a little fatrher north but worth the drive. Mostly local woods, lots of Maples, some softwoods, boat building supplies. A little more pricy, but some unique stuff. Turning blamks also.

Always been treated good by Highland. Remember to acclimate the wood as it may be kiln or air dried, it is in basically a barn.

Have fun.

Thanks! I'll be looking into other places for my next project. It was interesting, definitely not what I had in my mind but I was able to find the maple I wanted without help and the prices where what I had anticipated from their price list...

[Rob Young]

So---what kind of computer software do you use, Neal? Sketchup? And the next question---how do you use it?

Art

+1 on the Sketchup and also +1 on rough lumber and milling it yourself. You can save quite a bit in the long run. But there is the upfront tool cost.

As to how to use Sketchup, google around for some of the many Sketchup blogs out there. Over at LJ there is one that is pretty good but honestly I can't tell you a link other than to use their search feature.

For me, the trick to drawing anything is to first figure out what size block I would need to contain my object. Draw that block and then start whacking away on it to remove the parts I don't want. That usually gets me going. Exceptions are things like raised panels where I have figured out how to literally "raise" them from a flat 2D rectangle.

My biggest problem with Sketchup is I don't use it enough to remember how to do things. I'll spend a few hours drawing something and figuring how, for example, how to get a routed edge to follow a perimeter. Then a few weeks later I'll try again and it will take me almost as long to remember how I did it the first time. Arrrgghhh. Getting better though, each session I feel I get back up to speed a little quicker than the preceeding one.

Oh, and SAVE often. You might even want to save with incrementing filenames as you get pieces drawn. If you discover a screwup half-way through, you will have an archive of previous versions to fall back on.

[John Thompson]

I wouldn't pay $5.25 a board foot for soft curly maple when I can load a pick-up full at $2.05 a board foot at my local metro Atlanta supplier. All the emphasis had been posted on calculation and which way is better. I would also consider there is more than one source in many cases and shopping doesn't cost a penny and may save you several.

Sarge..