Dovetail saw for beginner?

[Justin Green]

What would be a good dovetail saw for a beginner? I'm aware that there are $150 saws and $10 saws... just not sure what the differences are and would like to buy one that will get me going without breaking the bank (since I'm also trying to round out my plane selection and get all of my sharpening equipment purchased)... I'm trying to set up a mostly hand tool shop.

I see a lot of dovetail saws listed on e-bay. Crown, Disston, etc., but I don't know vintages and quality of the various saws. I like fixing up old tools, but have never sharpened a saw and have no vise to use, etc.

[John Keeton]

Justin, you may want to review the following thread - including, of course, the small heated battle that took place whilst the thread progressed. It has a good amount of information, including some good contribution from the combatants!!
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=102860

I vote for the new LV, and that comment in itself will stir debate.

[Justin Green]

Thanks John - the saws mentioned in that thread in the price range I'm looking at (>$50) were the Japenese saws... I'm definitely going to consider one of those...

Edit - on the Japenese saws - are the blades typically thrown away when they get dull? I see many of the Japanese saws have replacement blades available...

[John Dykes]

I'm with Mr. Keeton on this one. I'd push you to the LV.

There are folks who swear by both the Western and Japanese saws. When I first started, I researched both camps and came down on the Western side. Why? Eh...

- My ideal would be to stick with all Western traditional tools and techniques.
- I like the looks of the Western saws.
- I've met a few makers of these Western saws, and that means a lot to me.
- Most (in not all) of my woodworking heroes use Western saws.

You see, nothing to do with performance! .... but I've been very happy that I chose this route in my ignorance.

[Brian Kent]

Thanks John - the saws mentioned in that thread in the price range I'm looking at (>$50) were the Japenese saws... I'm definitely going to consider one of those...

Edit - on the Japenese saws - are the blades typically thrown away when they get dull? I see many of the Japanese saws have replacement blades available...

I started with Japanese saws for the price and have gotten amazing results with a Dozuki from Rockler for dovetails. I returned one blade that was overly brittle after one week. The next blade has lasted 3 years so far. A couple of missing teeth, but not dull yet, and yes, it is a throw-away when it gets dull.

My second saw is a Ryoba - double sided for cross cut and rip cut. Each was under $50. I would not give these up, even as I am looking to try more expensive western saws.

[Joe Cunningham]

I tried both a Japanese dozuki (z) saw and the LV Dovetail saw. I found I did better with the LV saw and suspect it is because all my other saws are western style (I tend to use mostly hand saws).

If you can, try both styles, then get whichever one you seem to saw best with.

[Justin Green]

Thanks for all of the info - I'm leaning towards the Japanese saws because of cost but eventually I want a nice western one.

[Wilbur Pan]

Gyokucho model #311 rip dozuki, about $30-35.

If you want to try a Japanese saw, that is.

But I happen to think this is the best inexpensive saw around for cutting dovetails.

[John Keeton]

Thanks for all of the info - I'm leaning towards the Japanese saws because of cost but eventually I want a nice western one.
Justin, if I can give you the benefit of making several mistakes in my lifetime (white hair to prove it!), never buy to make do. Always buy for the long haul - it is much cheaper in the long run and usually in the short run.

If you spend $30-40 on a Japanese saw to get you by, and "eventually" get a western saw, you will spend considerably more over 5 years. Wait until you can afford what you really want, buy it, learn to sharpen it, and have a saw for the better part of a lifetime.

Just some words from a guy who has done what you propose too many times - and has learned better!

[James Williams 007]

Chris Gochnour did a comparison of a wide range of western saws and then rated them for an article in FWW. Surprisingly he gave a "Best overall" and a "Best Value" to the gents saw by Crown from highlandswoodworking.com for only 24$. My wife bought me this saw for X-mas and I have been having fun learning how to cut dovetails ever since.

[Justin Green]

Thanks for the advice John, I do typically try to buy better quality when I buy to keep down repair and replacement costs (learned this lesson on lawn mowers, dangit).

I know there are different steels used for saws, and differing weights and materials and workmanship between the blades and handles, I just don't have a lot of experience with hand saws where the cut has to be precise... So I'm doing some reading...

I will also be needing a crosscut or tenon saw at the same time (building a workbench), plus bench hardware, dogs, and sharpening equipment, so all of this seems a little overwhelming when getting into the really fine saws. Here's the list so far, not necessarily in any order:

1) Face vise or end vise or both for bench.
2) Dovetail saw.
3) Crosscut or tenon saw.
4) Electric grinder.
5) Decent supply of sandpaper in varying grits.
6) Waterstones/oil stones...
etc., etc....

[John Dykes]

Let me stir the pot; more to generate thought and discussion than to provide a solid direction (as is my way I suppose).

Don't buy a dovetail saw.

If your first project with this kit of tools is a workbench, why get a dovetail saw? The most basic workbench isn't an example of fine joinery (basic bench). At this point, do your cuts need to be so very precise? Can you mark a deep line, cut outside the line and pare down with a chisel for a workbench tenon - I'd say yes...

What might be the very minimum for building a basic bench.
- Rip saw (but can cross-cut in a pinch)
- Jointer plane (#7 - can do lots of everything else)
- Marples chisels
- Sharpening
- Marking tools

A sharp plane and chisel can compensate for rough saw cuts - and usually do!

There all this for $100! Ok, well - maybe a bit more.... but my point is don't despair that you have to buy so many tools. Did I build my bench with only the above? What! Are you kidding me!! :) But there's a lot you can do with a sharp saw, plane, and chisel. And a workbench might be the best way to realize that (as it can be a bit rough).

Might help to post your location too... might be someone near you.

[Dan Bertenthal]

A comment on Japanese saws is that they're typically designed for the softer woods traditionally used in Japanese woodworking, and the very hard teeth leave them somewhat brittle for harder woods. I chipped away countless teeth on my first two Gyokucho dozuki blades before I realized this. I do love the Gyokucho saw and splurged on a handmade dozuki when I was in Kyoto (which I'm almost afraid to use). Perhaps someone has adapted a Japanese-style saw for harder woods?
Now that I think about it (please forgive me if this has been discussed into the ground on other threads), there's also the different ergonomics of Western and Japanese woodworking. Since Japanese woodwork tends to be done on low-trestles, presumably the saws evolved for that work posture. If you're planning on a Western-style bench, I'd imagine Western-style saws are more compatible.
d
p.s. Definitely off-topic, but now that I think about it, Kyoto is famous for it's cherry blossoms so they certainly have hardwoods available. Also, some of the gifts I brought back were hair combs which were made with very-precise saw kerfs (I'm not kidding). It's a long tradition, apparently, albeit a dying one. I don't recall what woods were used, but presumably the woods would need to be fairly hard to hold up in use?

[Justin Green]

John,

I know I'm kind of getting off topic here, since I asked about saws... BUT, I'm a newbie, and have lots of questions, and for the past week have been spending at a minimum, one hour a night reading and searching Sawmill Creek. Thanks to grandpa, ebay, and flea markets & antique stores, I have already begun down the addicting path of flea market Stanley planes! I have 3 #4s, a #7, and a #8, a new Stanley block plane, a Veritas scrub plane, and a #5 Stanley on the way so I'll have a jack plane. I had a slab of nice granite that was broken and then given to me, so I use it to sharpen the plane blades. I'm sharpening them freehand, and I suck at it so far, but I don't have a way to hollow grind the blades yet and most of the used blades come with the bevel rounded. I have managed to get one of the #4s, the #7, and the #8 blade sharp enough to shave using a diamond hone and then sandpaper up to 2000 grit wet dry.

I've already laminated pine to make the core of my bench top. I still need to make the doghole strip, apron, back, and tool tray. Because I used leftover 1x southern yellow pine for the top, the glue up was pretty nasty looking. I tried to reject cupped boards, but a lot of the boards had a crown, which was glued up with the crown sticking out. I ripped the boards to 4" and glued them up in sections and then glued the sections together. The top is now 3 3/8" thick, after using the scrub plane to get rid of the offending crowns, then the #7 to try and remove the twist. It's 95" long, and 16" deep so far. I have the top and bottom very close to flat, but haven't smoothed it yet. The sides have been jointed with the #8 and they're square to the top. I will have to post a picture tonight of the huge pile of shavings made from the nasty glue up (takes a flat bench to make a flat bench, I understand now!)... There are only 3 places where the lamination left voids. These are getting an epoxy fill after smoothing. Just planing the top, I have learned volumes about reading grain to avoid tearout, the value of a sharp blade, and a lot about adjusting the planes. It's a lot of fun.

For the front strip/skirt and end caps, I would like these to be dovetailed, which led me to this post... And of course, I need to build a big base, which will be mortise and tenon.

I have a set of Buck's Brothers chisels that are sharp and they easily shave, so these might have to do while hunting for a set of Marples.

For marking & layout tools, I have a slide bevel, try square, and assortment of levels from 6"-6' long. Need a marking knife, but I do have an x-acto that works fairly well for rough marking.

Alrighty, that was longwinded... thanks for all of the suggestions and pardon my newness to all of this.

[John Keeton]

I will also be needing a crosscut or tenon saw at the same time (building a workbench), plus bench hardware, dogs, and sharpening equipment, so all of this seems a little overwhelming when getting into the really fine saws....
Justin, you have thickened the plot - and Mr. Dykes (trying to return the respect jbd;)) has grabbed you by the arm and pulled you headfirst down the slippery slope! Mr. Dykes won't reveal how looooonnnngg the slope is and how far he has slipped:D He pulled me down a ways, too. Had to grab a branch just to take a breather.

Looks like you have a pretty good start on tools. John is probably still correct on the dovetail saw. He would be far better versed on that than I, but it seems for that size of dovetail, a different saw may do better. John has longer arms and his knuckles drag a little more than mine - I am a reforming power tool user that is dabbling in handtools.

[Rob Luter]

Justin - There's been some good advice given. Please let me share my dovetail saw experience. I started with an old Jackson from an antique store. Worked OK but it was really a small tenon saw filed rip and was none too precise. On a budget, I next went with a really nice Japanese Dozuki saw (Rip) from Japan Woodworker because it seemed to represent a good value. It cuts a very precise kerf but I've never been able to control it while cutting dovetails. Maybe it’s just me :o. I recently acquired a Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw and found that it is both easy to control and very precise. I suspect the Lee Valley dovetail saw will perform just as well and at a lower price point. I purchased the Lie-Nielsen based on personal taste and not because I thought it would work better than the Lee Valley.

In the end I would have been money ahead to go with the Lie-Nielsen (or other quality western saw) right from the get-go. Other respected brands include Gramercy, Wenzloff, and Adria. I've heard good things about them all.

Your mileage may vary.

[Justin Green]

Oh, I have the obligitory circular saw, electric drill press, portable table saw, jigsaw, angle grinder, and orbital sander....

I find its more relaxing to do work by hand. I never am on a deadline for projects, and cleanup of the plane shavings this week was a lot easier than dusting everything in the garage... um err... workshop. Plus I can hear the radio.

Fortunately, my new bride is completely content to "let" me have the garage.... for now!

The planes are amazing. Even given my rudimentary sharpening skills, I was able to make some full width shavings that I could see through with the #7. The block plane is a little harder to master, though, for end grain....

So..... now that I've hijacked my own thread, for cutting a large scale dovetail of the type found on the end of some workbenches, which types of saws would I be looking to acquire instead of a dovetail saw? I've studied pictures of cross-cut vs. ripping saws, so that I can tell when I walk into the tool store what type of saw I'm actually looking at...

[Justin Green]

Thanks Rob.... now I'm back to not knowing which way to go again!!!

[willie sobat]

Justin,

Someone mentioned the Crown Gent's saw earlier. I bought one of these saws several years ago. Since then I have purchased a LN, an old Disston and Jackson as well as some carcase saws. The Crown may not be the end all but it will do a good job. At the price it is hard to beat and as mentioned has reviewed well. Even now that saw finds work in my shop when cutting small items. If you go that route you will save money and have a saw that will remain useful if you upgrade. Good luck.

[Robert Rozaieski]

I will also be needing a crosscut or tenon saw at the same time (building a workbench), plus bench hardware, dogs, and sharpening equipment, so all of this seems a little overwhelming when getting into the really fine saws. Here's the list so far, not necessarily in any order:

1) Face vise or end vise or both for bench.
2) Dovetail saw.
3) Crosscut or tenon saw.
4) Electric grinder.
5) Decent supply of sandpaper in varying grits.
6) Waterstones/oil stones...
etc., etc....

Justin,

Please don't take this the wrong way, but reading this post, I have to ask what you plan on doing with a dovetail saw right now :confused:? If you don't have a workbench yet or a vise or other way of holding your stock, you won't get much use from a dovetail saw. You won't be cutting any dovetails for a workbench, at least not the kind that would require a small dovetail saw like you are talking about here. My advice is to focus on a project (workbench?) and acquire only the tools you need for that project right now. Don't worry about what tools you will need later. Your future projects will determine that and you can get them then. If you need to build a workbench, you need a bigger saw, not to mention marking gauges, a square, chisels, etc., long before a dovetail saw.

Don't get too sucked up by the tool acquisition bug and forget that you also need wood and a place to work. Before you know it you'll have a bunch of tools you can't use, even more that you will later find you don't really need and others that you find you will need that you don't have because they aren't real flashy like super tuned smoothers and premium dovetail saws and therefore don't get the print that the fancier tools do.

I can't stress enough to focus on the project and let it determine your tool needs, not magazines, internet forums and the like. I speak from experience :o.

[george wilson]

Robert,what's the matter with you? Obama needs us to SPEND!!!!

[Justin Green]

Justin,

Please don't take this the wrong way, but reading this post, I have to ask what you plan on doing with a dovetail saw right now :confused:? If you don't have a workbench yet or a vise or other way of holding your stock, you won't get much use from a dovetail saw. You won't be cutting any dovetails for a workbench, at least not the kind that would require a small dovetail saw like you are talking about here. My advice is to focus on a project (workbench?) and acquire only the tools you need for that project right now. Don't worry about what tools you will need later. Your future projects will determine that and you can get them then. If you need to build a workbench, you need a bigger saw, not to mention marking gauges, a square, chisels, etc., long before a dovetail saw.

Don't get too sucked up by the tool acquisition bug and forget that you also need wood and a place to work. Before you know it you'll have a bunch of tools you can't use, even more that you will later find you don't really need and others that you find you will need that you don't have because they aren't real flashy like super tuned smoothers and premium dovetail saws and therefore don't get the print that the fancier tools do.

I can't stress enough to focus on the project and let it determine your tool needs, not magazines, internet forums and the like. I speak from experience :o.

Thanks Robert - I can feel that it's easy to get into the tools already...

I'm looking to dovetail the front apron into the end caps for the workbench. It will be a pretty big dovetail, so I'm guessing that a bigger saw would work? I currently have 0 hand saws for wood.

The core of the top of the bench is glued up and planed and sitting on two sawhorses. It's heavy. I have clamps... without attaching a vise at this stage, I had contemplated clamping boards to the top in order to square the material for the base, and to cut the mortise and tenons.

[Alex Shanku]

I'm looking to dovetail the front apron into the end caps for the workbench. It will be a pretty big dovetail, so I'm guessing that a bigger saw would work?


I have used the band saw and chisels to do this.

[Justin Green]

Ahhh, I'd love a bandsaw - one day...

[Robert Rozaieski]

Thanks Robert - I can feel that it's easy to get into the tools already...

I'm looking to dovetail the front apron into the end caps for the workbench. It will be a pretty big dovetail, so I'm guessing that a bigger saw would work? I currently have 0 hand saws for wood.

The core of the top of the bench is glued up and planed and sitting on two sawhorses. It's heavy. I have clamps... without attaching a vise at this stage, I had contemplated clamping boards to the top in order to square the material for the base, and to cut the mortise and tenons.

Yeah, the "dovetail" saws are pretty small as they are dasigned for dovetails in drawers and furniture cases. They probably won't have enough depth to cut the large dovetails for a workbench. For these I'd suggest something more along the lines of a rip filed tenon saw. You'll need one anyway to cut the tenons for the base if you are cutting them by hand. Something in the 14" range with about 12 PPI would be good for that. You'll also want a similar sized one filed crosscut for tenon shoulders and precise crosscuts. Save the small "dovetail" saws for drawers and small boxes later on. It won't be very useful for building your bench.

[Justin Green]

Thanks Robert.

[Clay Thigpen]

I'll second Robert's last 2 posts. I'm trying to get the few things I'll need to start getting my shop working and it's VERY easy to start day dreaming about that first project after the bench or the Cracker box.

One thing off topic I will say you mentioned that your sharpening skills are lacking? look into the DMT Diamond Stones I don't have a set yet but I hear they are great for when you get tired of buying sand paper.:rolleyes:

[george wilson]

Justin just wants a nice little saw to cuddle,guys. It's natural.

[Justin Green]

I'll second Robert's last 2 posts. I'm trying to get the few things I'll need to start getting my shop working and it's VERY easy to start day dreaming about that first project after the bench or the Cracker box.

One thing off topic I will say you mentioned that your sharpening skills are lacking? look into the DMT Diamond Stones I don't have a set yet but I hear they are great for when you get tired of buying sand paper.:rolleyes:

Yes, already tired of buying sandpaper.

And George, my wife might leave if I start cuddling with any of my tools! She's been really patient bumming around looking for piles of rust!

[Clay Thigpen]

And George, my wife might leave if I start cuddling with any of my tools! She's been really patient bumming around looking for piles of rust!

Ah I see, what ya have to do is once you get that bench built and that dovetail saw practice dovetails and maker her something ;). Just don't let the rest of your relatives know you have that ability or you want have time for your own projects :rolleyes:.

[Craig Johnson]

Robert,what's the matter with you? Obama needs us to SPEND!!!!

I can totally agree with this and have been trying dillegently to stimulate the economy by myself.........(Woodcraft are you listening?).

[Robert Rozaieski]

Ah I see, what ya have to do is once you get that bench built and that dovetail saw practice dovetails and maker her something ;).

Yep, cater to the CFO by showing her some return on investment and she'll ask you to build her something else. This is a good thing :confused:...

"Well honey, to build that I'm going to need X, Y and Z and possibly A, B and C as well." :D

When she sees something coming out of the shop, she will be much more accepting of your "need" for additional tools ;).

[george wilson]

Actually,guys,my wife is aware of what those tools can do for her. She was an artist when we met,and already making things herself. Now,our home business (98% her business) runs on dies,punches,special stamps,etc. that her very own toolmaker can turn out for her. I remember this moment 13 years ago "Oh my God! You paid $500.00 for that punch press?" Well,it was worth more,and came with dozens of punches and dies. Now I've made dozens more,and she cannot live without it. We bought another one a few years ago. Most of our book cases and furniture was made in the shop,too. I don't care a lot about making furniture,prefering to make guitars,so it's not elaborate except for her jewelry box and its table. The whole thing is Art Deco. She never was into Williamsburg!!

[John Keeton]

...her very own toolmaker can turn out for her.
George, given your historic perspective, surely you recognize indentured servitude when you encounter it;)

[Mitch Barker]

At a recent WW show I tried two dovetail saws at their booth. I thought that the cheaper one ($65). The handle was much more comfortable to me, and it seem to be easier to start and make a cut:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=61974&cat=1,42884

It doesn't have the traditional brass stiffener, but it still works.

Mitch

[george wilson]

The number and form of the teeth have the most to do with ease of entering a cut. The back angle of the LV's teeth keep the saw from "grabbing" too aggressively,which you don't want for fine,accurate work.

[David Keller NC]

"I'm looking to dovetail the front apron into the end caps for the workbench. It will be a pretty big dovetail, so I'm guessing that a bigger saw would work? I currently have 0 hand saws for wood."

Justin, based on your comment that you've yet to construct your bench, and would like hand tools to do just that, I'm going to suggest the following saws, in this order. One thing I'll comment on is that if you can afford it, I highly suggest that you get what might be called a "high end" saw for each of these, from Lie-Nielsen, Grammercy (Tools for Working Wood), Mike Wenzloff & Sons, Lee-Valley, etc... In my opinion, the elcheapos from modern British makers like Crown, Lynx, Pax, etc... are completely unacceptable poor cousins - their handles suck, have sharp edges, and in some cases, the teeth are incorrectly filed.

If you don't have the money for Lie-Nielsens, I'd suggest you'll be much better served picking up a few Disstons or antique British saws from their golden age (generally, before 1917), and either sharpen them yourself, or have someone do it for you. You'll save substantial money, and have much better saws than the inexpensive modern counterparts.

So, For the saw list:

1) A 14" tenon back-saw - this will let you cut the dovetails for the apron on your bench, as well as all the tenons for the stretchers underneath. Depending on dimensions, you may also find that the 12" Lie-Nielsen version has enough capacity to meet your needs (I did).

2) A fairly large cacass back-saw. By fairly large, I mean in the 12-14" range (Lie-Nielsen's what I'm basing this on, but there are other equally good brands). This'll give you a saw to cut the tenon shoulders needed for your workbench. Here, less so than the tenon saw, a 12" will do you fine. It's rare to need great depth of cut capacity on a cross-cut backsaw.

3) A dovetail saw, in the 10" range. There's a bunch of choices here, and you will need this as soon as you start making cabinet pieces by hand.

4) A 20-26" Crosscut panel saw. Again, lots of choices, but this is one area where I'd buy an old Disston. The primary use for this saw is breaking down large boards without having to horse them around for your machines.

5) A small Carcass saw, in the 10" range. A little guy like this is an excellent adjunct to a large carcass back-saw, generally used for accurate cross-cutting of all sorts of small furniture parts, in conjuction with a bench hook.

6) A large panel saw, filed rip, in the 5-7 tpi range. This would be my lowest priority, and only if you really want to go completely neanderthal and make a piece entirely by hand. Otherwise, the table saw completely replaces the need for one of these.

[Gary Herrmann]

I tried the LV dovetail saw at the woodworking show today. I liked it's heft and how well it cut. Appears to have a light set. They were having 10% off with no shipping, so I ordered one.

[Justin Green]

Thanks David. I think I'm going to order the LN tenon saw. I'll keep my eyes open for some saws at the antique stores. I will do some research on the Disston saws as I wouldn't be able to identify one's age at this point (like I'm learning to do with planes).

[Phillip Pattee]

Justin,
Here is the web site you need to find out about Disston saws. http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/ There are some excellent saws out there.:)

[David Keller NC]

Justin - Philip's given you a good place to start, but there's an easy way to spot the older Disstons from across the room - it has to do with the handles. Prior to 1917 (and in some top of the line saws, prior to the 1930's), all of the handles had at least hand finishing work in them, and all of the intersections of the hand grips are nicely and continuously rounded.

Afterwards, price pressures and the advent of more sophisticated rotary tools (like routers and shapers) resulted in an automated process that left sharp edges on the handles - the visual difference is striking.

One irony of this situation is that the steel that got used in the Disston saws was improving all the time, so that, at least in my opinion and those of others, the steel reached its zenith long after the woodwork started declining. For that reason, you may be able to pick up a later manufactured Disston (or Spear and Jackson, or Simmonds) saw, and take a file and rasp to it to drastically improve the handle. You'll then have a really nice saw for very little money.

[Justin Green]

Thanks a bunch everyone. You guys have given me a lot to run with. You guys are very generous to help a stranger newbie!