Older Craftsman Chisels

[Michael O'Sullivan]

What does the "BP" stand for on the older craftsman chisels, i.e. "Craftsman BP U.S.A."

Also, has anyone heard of W. Horne chisels? I received one in a lot I bought on ebay -- it looks very old-fashioned in terms of the workmanship and the mark itself -- or it might just be junky.

[george wilson]

Maybe "Bad Product"? Sorry,couldn't resist it. Years ago Fine Woodworking did an article about chisels. They found the Craftsman to be the worst. They said the Craftsman chisels were made in Holland from 1050 steel. That means 1/2 of 1% carbon. 1050 steel is the very lowest end of steel that will harden. For plain carbon steel,it has very low wear resistance-gets dull more quickly. They couldn't have chosen a cheaper steel.

Not to demean your tool,these are the facts for your consideration only.

[Richard Niemiec]

Depends on the age of the chisel. If you are talking about socket chisels from the 50s or early 60's with the old logo on them, many were made by Greenlee and are excellent. Otherwise, anything much later I would agree with the general view that quality dropped off.

[Jim Koepke]

I have a bunch of the Craftsman Vanadium chisels. They will work like a chisel but they do seem to dull quickly and some of them look like they have bent at the neck.

These are among the chisels used when there is something that may damage a good chisel in the wood. Most of these have come my way in package deals with other chisels.

My feeling is it is good to have a few chisels around for the ugly work or if a neighbor wants to borrow a chisel. If it gets messed up or doesn't come back, it is no big loss.

jim

[Frank Drew]

My very first chisels were a set from Craftsman, bought maybe around 1970-71. I didn't know nuthin' at the time and rather liked the feel and balance but they didn't hold an edge very well. OK for the carpentry I was then doing.

[george wilson]

Glad no one got upset with me for telling the real facts. Since I have hundreds of antique carving tools,I can tell you that not all of them hold an edge well,either. There is still quite a variation in quality.

When I was toolmaker,I actually had to re harden and temper some antique chisels the housewrights were whacking in heavy timber construction. One had an edge that looked like a little fish hook after being used. Clearly not properly hardened,or drawn too soft. On another,a Witherby-one of the best old 19th.C. brands,the steel bit had come loose as it was not properly welded when made.

Not saying all old tools were bad,not by any means,but they were varied,too.

These days,when we know exactly what we are doing with metal alloys,it can only mean that someone's more concerned with money than with the customer getting good value.

BTW,did any of you hear about the trend in tool manufacturers towards making their chisels softer? This due to lawyers encouraging people to sue if they have any tool accidents. I had the end of a 1960's Marples chisel break off. I had bought it new. If it hit me in the eye... I remember in the 60's the years of debate whether lawyers should be allowed to advertise. Do they ever advertise anything but lawsuits? Glad I already bought my old chisels!!

[Michael O'Sullivan]

Glad no one got upset with me for telling the real facts. Since I have hundreds of antique carving tools,I can tell you that not all of them hold an edge well,either. There is still quite a variation in quality.

No offense taken ;)

The C-man is a 1.5"er that I got in a lot of 4 for $10, so I won't be too concerned if it turns out to be cr#p. I had read that the earlier C-men were made by Greenlee and were generally good quality, but I was wondering how one tells when the thing was made. The logo on this is very art deco-ish, but I am not sure how long C-man kept using the same logo. I was wondering if the BP USA legend added some information.

[george wilson]

If they were Greenlee,they'd have to be good,but I don't know when the shift was made. If they don't hold an edge,or bend,it isn't a good sign.

[george wilson]

Jim,your idea of "borrower" tools is a good one !! I remember a tale about a shop teacher. When a student would show up with a completely non specific request to borrow a screwdriver from a teacher,he had one 2' long that he would send back with the student.

[Bill Houghton]

Depends on the age of the chisel. If you are talking about socket chisels from the 50s or early 60's with the old logo on them, many were made by Greenlee and are excellent. Otherwise, anything much later I would agree with the general view that quality dropped off.

My brother gave me a set of Craftsman chisels given to him by our uncle - sockets, wooden handles, pretty things, almost unused, still in the cardboard box. Are you saying these might be Greenlees? How can I tell?

[george wilson]

Wooden handles? That's a good sign. I am not up much on the history of Craftsmen hand tools. Know more about their power tools.

Did you know that the little 6" open side shove-the-wood through by hand thickness planer was made by Seeley (sp?) Thermos Bottle co.? I had one for a few months in the 60's. It worked quite nicely with sharp blades.

[Ian Gillis]

I sorta credit Craftsmen chisels from the early 80's for teaching me how to sharpen. These were the butt chisels with blue and clear plastic handles with steel striking caps.

All you had to do was to show them a piece of wood and the edge would fail! A 250x water stone was my grinder. I had the Eclipse honing jig and a 1000x water stone. I was sharpening so often that putting the chisels in the jig was taking more time than I could stand. I started to hone freehand, and if my bevels were rounded, it didn't matter. I knew I'd get another shot at getting it right in a few minutes ;)

It wasn't too long before I discovered Lee Valley and got some decent chisels and found out that tool steel was meant to be harder than Swiss cheese ;)

[george wilson]

Bill: I have an old Sear's catalog,1935,I think. I'll TRY to remember to look up the Craftsman chisels and see if they look like Greenlees tomorrow, Jog my memory if I don't report back.

[Jim Koepke]

My shiny Craftsman Vanadium chisels have wooden handles. Some still have parts of the Craftsman decal on the handle. Heck, for a while the wooden handles were used on better chisels until my stash got to the point of having more handles than chisels.

jim

[george wilson]

MICHAEL: YOUR ANSWER: In my 1937 Sears catalog,the chisels have wooden handles. They are socket chisels,sold under the name Fulton.

My next oldest catalog is 1955. They are Craftsman with plastic handles.

[Larry Frank]

I could not pass up the remark that 1050 steel is the low end of being able to harden. Guess what - The axles in your car are most likely 1050 steel and it does have very good hardenability. These parts are produced and then induction hardened. If quenched it is has a hardness of Rc 55 or better. Even if it is tempered back it still retains good hardness. There are other grades of steel such as high alloy and tool steels which retain hardness better and tempering but the cost goes way up.

[Michael O'Sullivan]

MICHAEL: YOUR ANSWER: In my 1937 Sears catalog,the chisels have wooden handles. They are socket chisels,sold under the name Fulton.

My next oldest catalog is 1955. They are Craftsman with plastic handles.

George -- thanks. That would probably put mine somewhere between '37 and '55, because it is a socket chisel but has a Craftsman mark. The logo style is very '40s-ish, which would make sense. It didn't come with a handle, so I turned one out of a hunk of Ipe.

[george wilson]

Larry,the differences between the functions of car axles and chisels cause different steels to be employed. I think most axles are something like 4140,anyway. At least,they used to be. If you re-read my remark,I didn't say it wouldn't harden. I said it is at the low end of hardenability.Which means it will harden,but does have poor edge wear resistance.

Axles have to be tough more than anything else. The object is for them to not snap off,but to have SOME wear resistance. Axles don't have cutting edges,of course. They do have splines which need to have some wearability,but they are like gear teeth,not cutting edges.

Chisels are for cutting. Totally different use. You can ,at least,I have been able to saw off portions of truck axles that I got for making milling machine arbors from. Much cheaper than buying bars of 4140. I do not want to be able to saw a chisel off,do I?

I know for a fact that the recent Craftsman chisels were 1050,and every user in this thread has commented on their poor edge retention.

[Larry Frank]

I think that what was initially said is "1050 steel is the very lowest end of steel that will harden." Any steel will harden. How much it hardens and how it retains the hardness it depends on all of the chemistry. Just to set things straight, there is a high per cent of cars which have 1050 axles. I design the steelmaking practices for the production of this steel. We make thousands of tons of this 1050 grade for axles every year. Note that the shaft of a shock absorber strut is a lower carbon 1040 and hardened to prevent wear. One major supplier of hammers makes them out of a similar carbon steel as the 1050 and hardens the faces.
Hardness is only one of several factors which make a steel good for a cutting edge. Every different use requires a different type of steel or alloy to best meet the requirements. The steel in a chisel may not be the best type for a drill bit or a a planer blade. For each application, the grade of steel is matched to the individual requirement.

[george wilson]

Apparently,we agree,Larry.I just said the same thing about uses of different steels for different stuff. And in this context,I meant any steel that would fully harden to file hard. The 1040 probably gets to about 34-36 R.C.? IIRC.

Not being privy to the current metals in use for cars,I only know what Machinery's Handbook says. Of course,they are known for not keeping up to date info. They said 4140. I am surprised that such an elementary alloy as 1050 would be in use. Hammer makers like to make hammers that won't chip and injure customers in this law suit age. Maybe that's why they use 1050.

Do you make any 1070? The blacksmith's shop in Colonial Williamsburg would love to get some. It forge welds better than higher alloys. They had bought a bunch of 1070 from an old manufacturer years ago,but are running low.

[James Tag]

I have two craftsman chromed chisels, with nice wood handles and leather strike pads on the back. The steel isn't the WORST I've ever seen, they hold an edge longer than my Anant plane iron, but they still dont hold a candle to my Witherbys. I also have a couple of socket chisels marked "Fulton Special," which hold a nice edge. I wonder if Sears sold them?
Regardless, i brought the Craftsman chisels to work and use them to scrape glue squeeze out on panels and to hack pieces of particleboard apart. They are great for that.

[george wilson]

James,I just mentioned Fulton chisels in the 1937 Sears catalog. Read over the postings for more.

[Bill Houghton]

The first three pictures (if I've done this right) are chisels my brother gave me. I've been so busy with house work and some medical issues that I haven't been able to do anything but admire them. They do resemble my one Greenlee chisel, but the chrome plating concerns me. Any sense of whether these might be Greenlee-made?

I'm struck that the Craftsman logo design differs between the box and the chisel handles. It's definitely pre-ZIP code, which is a positive. If I'm reading the history right, this is a pre-1960 logo.

It'd be nice if these have more than sentimental value.

The final picture is of what I presume is a much older chisel. The logo vaguely resembles the logo on my "Type 1" (original Craftsman logo, 1927-30) No. 6. I've never even gotten around to sharpening this (my good users are Pexto chisels, and I use older yellow-plastic-handled Stanleys for the carpentry), but if this is likely to be made by a good company like Greenlee, I could get motivated...

[george wilson]

I am not a collector,and don't have any Greenlee chisels to compare handle shapes with. Some other viewer may have some. The chrome plating could have been a feature Sears asked for. Sears seemed to like chrome. They used to sell "Chromeclad" files,plated with hard chrome. Now,there are these expensive files made in Germany,or Swiss "Valtitian",which are apparently chrome clad,too. They specify a very hard surface 72 RC.? I'm getting tired. They checked at only 64-65 RC.,but the hardness tester's diamond could just be punching through a thin coating,giving a false reading. They are for filing platinum. And when I was young,I thought the Sears files were not good because of how they looked!!!

[Rob Luter]

They do resemble my one Greenlee chisel, but the chrome plating concerns me. Any sense of whether these might be Greenlee-made?

Hi Bill,

These look just like a couple of Greenlees I have, one of which has what appears to be a chrome or nickel plating. The handles are a dead ringer for the ones on your Craftsman chisels. My Greenlees really hold an edge!

[James Tag]

Those are the same exact craftsman chisels that I have.

[george wilson]

Chrome is bluish. Nickel is yellowish,and if left a long time will start getting dull. These are slight color nuances,but they are there.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Bill,

These look just like a couple of Greenlees I have, one of which has what appears to be a chrome or nickel plating. The handles are a dead ringer for the ones on your Craftsman chisels. My Greenlees really hold an edge!

Went out to the shop and rounded up my Craftsman chisels. Two of them say Craftsman, Vanadium, U.S.A. BP (British Petroleum?). The one that looks like Bill's chisel with the handles stamped does not have the BP and the logo looks like it is frosted. Then there is one that is just plane weird, the logo is block letters, all caps in a partial oval. The frosted logo chisel is pretty scratched up.

jim

[george wilson]

That is CHROME.

[Rob Luter]

In comparison with Jim's chisels, my Greenlee isn't chromed. It's not that shiny. Might be nickel.

[george wilson]

The photo makes them look blue,but that may be the lights. Shinyness is not the guide,though,color is. As I mentioned,old nickel can become dull,but it has a warmth in the color,like an old nickle coin,that chrome doesn't have because of its bluish nature.

[Rob Luter]

It's closer in appearance to the nickel plating on a couple old Stanley bevel gauges I have, but I've never really checked it to see what it was. I'll try to post a picture tonight.

[Rob Luter]

It's closer in appearance to the nickel plating on a couple old Stanley bevel gauges I have, but I've never really checked it to see what it was. I'll try to post a picture tonight.

OK, do I feel silly:o. I thought the chisel was plated, but it's just clean and free of corrosion, patina, etc. That's such a rare quality in my tools I didn't recognize it for what it was. DOH!

[george wilson]

Others have said theirs were plated. I am wondering if they really were plated,now. I have no Craftsman chisels of any age to look at myself. If I found those real old ones,I'd buy them just to have.

[george wilson]

As luck would have it,I saw some old Craftsman chisels on ebay last night. they were the old wooden handle tang chisels marked Fulton. There was also a set of similar looking Dunlap chisels.

Old folks know that Dunlap was a second class line of Sears tools. But,the dealer said these Dunlaps were made in Germany!! Might have been good!!

Time was almost run out on these items,or I would have mentioned it.