Can you handle another jointer thread?

[Ed Calkins]

Well fishing for comments again -- for whatever it is worth I take the advice seriously and research your comments and follow many. I have my Onieda dust collection on order and my bandsaw on order. My only other immediate need is a jointer. (a tablesaw may follow in the future as I see where my projects lead me). I started thinking about a 6" jointer, quickly decided from reading the forums etc. that I should get at least an 8". As with the bandsaw, this will be my first and probably last jointer (I have used them but not owned them). I am open to any brand and customer support is important to me -- I live in a rural area with no local machine dealers. If I had to order in the next 5 mins I would probably go with the Griz G0490X --- However, considering where my projects might go and after reading a lot I am at least considering jumping right to a 10" --- could be overkill. While I do not like to spend more than needed, I can live with the price of any of these options. It gets confusing--- Griz has the 0490X parallel adj, spiral heads etc. for the same price as the 0656X that is dovetail with reg cutters -- both with mobile base?? And for 10", which must be a new model, they have the G0480 which is dovetail with spiral head. Then they have the 0675 10" combo jointer and planer which is also interesting. Lots of choices and decisions and that is only one company. Then there is used. I settled on 8" for flexibility and the 12" was too long a reach -- aircraft carrier size. But now the 10" sort of opens up the decision as was the case with 6" to 8". I realize you can extend this forever -- but I would be willing to spend 2K vs 1.2K if it was a better longer term jointer solution. Any comments would be interesting to me, thks, Ed :confused:

[Richard Gonzalez]

I was in the same boat. I also needed a planer, and decided if I was going to spend enough for a 8" and a planer, I could get the 12" Jet JJP-12 and get a 12" jointer and a planer in one. I paid $1700. It is a combo, but has worked out great for me as I do not have much room. I am glad to have the extra width on the jointer, and the bed length has not been an issue for me - I have face planed 10" wide 9' long oak boards without a problem.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Ed, I previously owned a General 8" jointer and 14" planer.

I swapped them out for a Hammer A3-31 which is a 12" combination jointer/planer.

I now have a jointer that can surface wide material, so I don't have to split a beautiful board down the middle to surface it.

The Euro jointer/planers have a lot going for them, accuracy, precision, quality of workmanship, and about 40 years of product development for combination machines.

Oh, they also have quick change knife holders so that I can change the knives in 3 to 4 minutes, no adjustment required.

In addition the cutter head geometry substantially reduces tear out on difficult grain, compared to standard knives in other machines.

The Grizzly 12"?? machine looks like a copy of the Hammer.

There are other makers, MiniMax, Laguna, Felder etc.

The Euro combination machines are compact, yet provide capacities that are only available from conventional designs that are much larger and heavier.

Good hunting, it's an interesting learning experience....Regards, Rod.

[Mike Spanbauer]

There are quite a few options that come up used around here Ed. If you're willing to commute for this "last" machine, it'd be worth it.

Craig's list is likely your best bet, unless you're dead set on buying new?

I purchased an SCMI 12" jointer last year (76" length, ultra small footprint - less space than my 8") and paid $1600 once I had it in my shop. It originally retailed for $10k and frankly, there is nothing in the hobby market that quite compares with it from a smoothness / performance perspective. Granted, it was a great deal, but they ARE out there.

I would be HIGHLY inclined to look for and buy used in this economic climate as there are some really impressive deals coming up from cabinet shops that are closing.

my 2 cents

mike

[Ed Calkins]

Thanks for the comments -- I have also looked at the combo with interest and am cautious with them but your comments are very positive. I remember my motorcycle days -- combo steet/dirt bikes were poor dirt bikes and poor street bikes but they did both -- to some degree. My planer is a portable Makita so a combo is a consideration. Mike, I have not ruled out used -- and check the Craigslist tool section on a regular basis. However, I do not want to get into a major restoration task even though the end result would likely be a great product. I am surprised to find out that the 10" Grizzly has been around a while as it isn't even in my latest catalog?? Pricing is also strange from Grizzly, it seems like the parallel desgin must be lower cost for them than the regular dovetail design?? Ed

[Mike Spanbauer]

I understand the concerns about restoration... mine was mint and stored very well... I literally had to clean up a VERY light amount of surface rust and then put on a plug...

Yes, it was a great deal :)

There ARE fabulous restored units coming up in the bay area and sac area these days. I think I saw a stellar one recently up in Redding too... which, considering that this will be a one time purchase if you buy well, is not a long commute really.

The Griz pieces are pretty nice looking for sure, plus it's delivered to your door... no complaints about that :)

G'luck w/ your choice.

mike

[Ed Calkins]

When you say restored units -- do you mean from the original company or a dealer or ?? Ed

[Ed Calkins]

I understand the concerns about restoration...
There ARE fabulous restored units coming up in the bay area and sac area these days.
mike

If someone is interested in a real classic and probably a superb jointer here is an 18" in Nevada -- when you go to the cl site there is a url that shows all the pics of the restoration job -- quite an effort. Too big for what I want but nice!! Still looking and trying to make a decision --

http://reno.craigslist.org/tls/997178141.html Ed

[Mike Spanbauer]

That's what I had in mind Ed :)

mike

[Ed Calkins]

Trying to get closer to a decision here ---haven't found anything interesting on the used market that is feasible for me but still looking. I have had advice to go with the parallelogram tables and spiral cutterheads. The 10" from Griz doesn't have the parallelogram tables, so I am back to the 8" (0490x) or 12" (0609x). A question, is there any operational advantage to an 8" jointer when doing the majority of work that it will handle over a 12" jointer for doing the same work that could be done on a smaller jointer ignoring cost and footprint differences? I don't think so but I have never owned a jointer. The cost difference is almost 2X from Griz, and the footprint difference is almost a foot in both directions -- I do have room for the 12". thks

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Ed, here are some somewhat random thoughts that I hope help. Bigger is always better from a functionality standpoint, so no, the 8"" has no advantage over a 12", assuming that money and space are not factored in. 8" is a functional compromise size, and thats why they are so frequently discussed. 12" would give you the ability to skew some boards that the 8" would not. This can be valuable for figured stock.

Paralellagram vs dovetail ways is like agruing which full size pickup will haul a sheet of plywood. Both systems work equally well from a functionality perspective, it just comes down to marketing. There has apparently been a good bit of marketing to promote paralagram models recently. I suspect that they are cheaper to produce, and if the consumer can be convienced that they are better, the manufacturer can pocket a bit more profit margin. I have owned and used both systems, and they both work functionally identical. Ironically, several years ago on a different forum, I remember a few heated debates on the functional superiority of dovetail ways.

Now the biggie, spiral, shelix, insert, or whatever cutter heads. Standard knives have been used for a very long time, and if maintaned properly, will cut just as well as anything else out there. A skewed cut being the suposed major selling point to a spiral cutter head is pure marketing, and I can prove it. Go grab a handplane, and a piece of gnarley figured lumber. Tune and sharpen the plane well, and take a straight cut along the face of the board. Now compare a cut with the plane angled, and you will feel difference in the effort required. You will also notice that the plane takes a narrower pass, which is where the less effort comes from. This is popularly misconcieved as the skew approach cutting better.

Sometimes a skew will help with figured grain, for one reason. Undulating grain can present a steep angle, more like endgrain. A cutter going with the grain in this instance will work fine, one going against will tear out. Thing is though, on figured stock, the grain is usually not consistant on the whole length of stock. The right cutter presentation on one end of the board will likely leave something to be desired at the other end. Of course the skewed cut will do the exact same thing.

A skewed cutter has a lower angle of presention to the workpiece than a straight cutter, bedded at the same angle. On handplanes this is a much debated feature, but one point of agreement is that the lower the cutting angle, the more important a tight throat opening is. For example, compare the function of a hand scraper to a #62 set for a light pass, but open up the mouth all the way. Now go look at that huge mouth opening on any jointer.

This is the very long winded way to say that the geometry of a cutter head will not make up for poor techinique. To use a jointer effectively, you have to do your part, and no fancy gimic will change the fact that it is no more complicated than a cutter lifting chips.

Don't get me wrong, there is one real advantages to the newer approaches to cutters, noise reduction. Inserts are supposed to speed up knife changes. Try a Tersa, and you will be suprised how slow the inserts are. All of the higher dollar machines have a quick change system of some sort now. It all boils down to one issue, if the operator understands how the machine works, and KEEPS THE CUTTERS SHARP, any quality jointer will yield the exact same results as any other.

What would I do? I would pick the brand that I thought was highest quality, and buy the biggest machine that they offer that I could afford. Keep in mind, a jointer of planner are not finish quality machines, and no matter which machine or options you pick, you will need to do hand work before you try that French polish. Good luck!

[Joe Jensen]

Ed, here are some somewhat random thoughts that I hope help. Bigger is always better from a functionality standpoint, so no, the 8"" has no advantage over a 12", assuming that money and space are not factored in. 8" is a functional compromise size, and thats why they are so frequently discussed. 12" would give you the ability to skew some boards that the 8" would not. This can be valuable for figured stock.

Paralellagram vs dovetail ways is like agruing which full size pickup will haul a sheet of plywood. Both systems work equally well from a functionality perspective, it just comes down to marketing. There has apparently been a good bit of marketing to promote paralagram models recently. I suspect that they are cheaper to produce, and if the consumer can be convienced that they are better, the manufacturer can pocket a bit more profit margin. I have owned and used both systems, and they both work functionally identical. Ironically, several years ago on a different forum, I remember a few heated debates on the functional superiority of dovetail ways.

Now the biggie, spiral, shelix, insert, or whatever cutter heads. Standard knives have been used for a very long time, and if maintaned properly, will cut just as well as anything else out there. A skewed cut being the suposed major selling point to a spiral cutter head is pure marketing, and I can prove it. Go grab a handplane, and a piece of gnarley figured lumber. Tune and sharpen the plane well, and take a straight cut along the face of the board. Now compare a cut with the plane angled, and you will feel difference in the effort required. You will also notice that the plane takes a narrower pass, which is where the less effort comes from. This is popularly misconcieved as the skew approach cutting better.

Sometimes a skew will help with figured grain, for one reason. Undulating grain can present a steep angle, more like endgrain. A cutter going with the grain in this instance will work fine, one going against will tear out. Thing is though, on figured stock, the grain is usually not consistant on the whole length of stock. The right cutter presentation on one end of the board will likely leave something to be desired at the other end. Of course the skewed cut will do the exact same thing.

A skewed cutter has a lower angle of presention to the workpiece than a straight cutter, bedded at the same angle. On handplanes this is a much debated feature, but one point of agreement is that the lower the cutting angle, the more important a tight throat opening is. For example, compare the function of a hand scraper to a #62 set for a light pass, but open up the mouth all the way. Now go look at that huge mouth opening on any jointer.

This is the very long winded way to say that the geometry of a cutter head will not make up for poor techinique. To use a jointer effectively, you have to do your part, and no fancy gimic will change the fact that it is no more complicated than a cutter lifting chips.

Don't get me wrong, there is one real advantages to the newer approaches to cutters, noise reduction. Inserts are supposed to speed up knife changes. Try a Tersa, and you will be suprised how slow the inserts are. All of the higher dollar machines have a quick change system of some sort now. It all boils down to one issue, if the operator understands how the machine works, and KEEPS THE CUTTERS SHARP, any quality jointer will yield the exact same results as any other.

What would I do? I would pick the brand that I thought was highest quality, and buy the biggest machine that they offer that I could afford. Keep in mind, a jointer of planner are not finish quality machines, and no matter which machine or options you pick, you will need to do hand work before you try that French polish. Good luck!

I agree with most of this. I've personally been doing this for 30 years. 25 years with straight knives in the planer and jointer. Kept them very sharp and super adjusted. They cut awesome with limited tearout. Worked that way for at least couple hundred linear feet. Then they were no longer razor sharp and tearout would increase. I first put a tersa head on my jointer. Knife changes were fast, but alas, they too dulled quickly. Later when the Byrd heads emerged I put one on my Powermatic planer and the results were amazing. About 2 years later, frustrated with the Tersa on the jointer and replaced it with a Byrd. Speaking as someone who has extensive use with all three types of cutterheads, for my useage the Byrd is vastly superior. I have not however had a tool that allowed me to grind the knives in place on the machine. I was able to get all three knives to +/- 0.005" after hours with a dial indicator. But, grinding in place would get them perfect.

[Ed Calkins]

First of all Steve and Joe, thanks so much for taking time out of your Sunday to share your valuable experience. Interesting comment about the mfg costs of parallelagram vs dovetail, I came to the same conclusion the way the pricing is on some Griz models -- I think I can go either way based on comments received -I wouldn't select or reject a jointer based on these two design differences. The head design is more interesting as it seems like the ability to change only a small insert when/if you nick a blade is worth something. I have had several very positive comments on the Byrd Shelix heads, I even considered ordering the Griz product with the lower cost straight knives and then changing later to the Byrd product ($500 or so). But I pulled up an installation instruction to put the Byrd head on the Griz 12" and it required major disassembly of the jointer pressing bearings off and on, a very major job in my opinion to do on a new jointer. So unless Byrd is offered installed on a product, I don't plan to go there. Thanks a lot for you insight. I keep trying to talk myself into the 8" but I keep getting advice from many of you that I respect that I should go bigger if I can afford to and I can afford to go to the 10 or 12 inch models. Ed

[Joe Chritz]

Bigger is definately better when it comes to jointers. You can obviously run a 9" piece on a 12" jointer but no the other way around. It really depends on what you can afford and what your work normally requires.

I get by just fine with an 8" and I highly suspect that if I had a 10" I would have lots of boards 10 1/2" wide that I needed to face joint.

The Byrd head is fantastic and I will always have one now. If I didn't have a drum sander I expect I would have one in my planer also.

Joe

[Joe Jensen]

Ed, here are some additional thoughts on width. I used a 6" jointer for about 10 years. I was never happy with the short beds. I've read, and I am convinced, that you can only truely straighten boards twice as long as the infeed bed. When I had the short 6" jointer, I had to use a lot of clamps, and I had to tighten the heck out of them to get glue ups to pull together tight. I also used biscuits back in those days to make sure glue joints didn't fail. In 1990 I upgraded many of my first tools to Powermatic and including a PM 60 8" jointer. The extra length of the 8" jointer allowed me to get much straighter boards and the quality of my work improved. In fact, the addition of the longer jointer and the addition of a great planer let me prep every board to be perfectly straight and flat. I haven't used a belt sander to flatten since. I would strongly recommend 8".

Many here slap glue ups together and then flatten them after with a really wide planer or sander. If this is how you work, then a longer bed will be of less importance.

I recently upgraded to a 12" SCMI jointer that I was able to buy at a very good price in an online auction. My PM jointer was 60" long. The new SCMI is 84" long, and the infeed table is like 44". I am a committed hobbiest with 30 years in the hobby, no chance I'm quiting soon. If you know you are in this for the long haul and can afford it, go longer. I personally don't think I'll use the width much. I was raised to focus on controlling panel warp, and I was trained to never let an individual board be more than 8X it's thickness, so I don't do much with really wide boards. I have however started doing some resanw veneer and the 12" width is useful for me there.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

In reference to my post earlier, I'm certainly not knocking the new heads, just trying to put some of the somewhat subjective claims of improvement into perspective. Joe is actually the one who talked me into admitting any improvement on these heads, so I respect his input greatly, but there are other claims out there that are a bit questionable.

One thing that is probably an improvement on the new cutters is better steel for the knives. Especially the Byrd's. If I was to buy one of these, it would be the Byrd, for the reason that you said about knicked knives. I've been woodworking for 15 years or so now, and I have knicked one set of jointer knives though. Regular knives can be offset easily to get around knicks.

Others may put more value into these heads than me, simply because they work wood different than I do. They are just as right as I am, and hopefully the various opinions will help you make a decision you won't regret. Have fun!