TS arbor runout .0015. Blade .0065 Acceptable?

[Chris Konikowski]

OK, title says it all. TS arbor runout .0015. Blade .0065 Acceptable?

This is on a Grizzly G0576 with a brand new Freud P410 blade. I rotated the blade a few different positions to see if I could minimize it, but actually got it to about .008.

What do you think? Make some sawdust or try and fix this stuff...

[Chris Padilla]

Let me ask you this, can you detect the blade wobble with your eye?

Do this: bump your start button (i.e turn it on then off immediately) and look inline with the blade and watch it as it slows down. Can you see the wobble? You can exacerbate the wobble by mouting up a 12" blade (if you have one...be sure it clears...it should).

Rip some wood or plywood as if you were going to edge-glue them and see what you think about the fit.

Do you know the specs of this saw? I have a feeling that 1.5 mil (0.0015") of arbor runout is likely within spec.

I'm not familar with the saw so I'm not sure if there are any adjustments that you can do should you want to improve things but I *think* your runout is probably just fine.

[Michael Stanley]

How's the quality of the cut? Are you having proplems getting joints cut on this saw to fit properly? Myself, I'd make saw dust.

[Charles McCracken]

OK, title says it all. TS arbor runout .0015. Blade .0065 Acceptable?

This is on a Grizzly G0576 with a brand new Freud P410 blade. I rotated the blade a few different positions to see if I could minimize it, but actually got it to about .008.

What do you think? Make some sawdust or try and fix this stuff...

Chris,

Where are you measuring the arbor to get the 0.0015" runout? The blade should have less than 0.003" total runout but if you have 0.0015" at the arbor flange it would translate into much more at the blade rim. That said, 0.0065" is not bad so you should make some sawdust and see how the cuts are.

[Loren Hedahl]

If the cuts you make are acceptable, then why worry?

What you may see is a series of curved scratches on your cut surface. These can be sanded or planed out.

If you are not satisfied you can file the surface of your arbor washer to take out the runout. It is tedious and can take a long time, but with a bit of patience you can make it as perfect as you want.

If your blade has one or two teeth that are not planar with the rest of the teeth your sharpening service can correct that.

If your blade has a small warp, a shim can straighten it out. I had one that was just fine with a small piece of clear vinyl Scotch tape placed near the center hole at the correct place.

Another tip is to use a smaller diameter blade. Several years ago I bought several Makita 7 1/4 inch blades with high tooth count on a close-out sale. They make incredibly smooth cuts.

[Chris Konikowski]

Chris,

Where are you measuring the arbor to get the 0.0015" runout? The blade should have less than 0.003" total runout but if you have 0.0015" at the arbor flange it would translate into much more at the blade rim. That said, 0.0065" is not bad so you should make some sawdust and see how the cuts are.

I am measuring as far out on the flat surface of the arbor that I can with a mag base dial indicator. I alligned the blade to the miter slot to about .001 of an inch away from the fence (two hours later). The fence, I angled away from the blade by .001-.002(there was about .001 difference each time I clamped the fence). The cuts seem very nice and smooth. It does seem like the piece drags a little on the back side of the blade though...

I jointed one side of a 14" board, put it on the fence, trimmed a little off the edge and then made a 1" cut. I used my dial indicators to measure width of the front and the back. I am .015" off front to back. What do you think about this?

On a side note, the cut quality of the P410 is awesome! Putting the two pieces together, you could see no discernable line. It was ready to glue up.

[Chris Konikowski]

OK, when I cut through a board, say 12" x 12", when the wood actually splits(the tail end of the board passes the front of the blade, the piece between the fence and the blade is still being trimmed by the back of the blade. What do I need to do? You can read above as to what I have done. Maybe I messed up on something up there?

[Tom Henderson2]

Hi Chris-

0.0015 TIR at the arbor isn't awful, but isn't great, either.

Depending on the age and make/model of the saw, it may be easy to remove the arbor, have it turned true and reinstall with new bearings. I did that on my mid-sixties Craftsman CS a year or so ago, and it make a significant improvement in cut quality.

Getting the arbor out was easy for me; hopefully it would be for you to. You can take it to a local electric motor shop for the bearing replacment if you are uncomfortable pressing them out and in yourself. Replacement bearings for me were cheap; about $25 each (or maybe less).

The hard part was finding a machine shop that would take such a small job. I called a number of local commercial outfits but they weren't interested. I finally found a friend that could do it, so that was a freebie.

If you can, find somebody that can chuck the arbor up in a collet rather than a lathe chuck as that will usually result in a truer surface.

Also, in my case I had quite a bit of lateral runnout (wobble) but the shaft had virtually no radial runnout. So all he had to do was trim the face of the abor flange which only took a few moments and didn't affect the threads, etc. If you have radial runnout, it may be a bit more challenging.

My feeling is that if you can improve the situation without a huge effort, why not give it a try? I enjoyed the teardown/rebuild process as it gave me a chance to really get things cleaned up and properly lubed.

My $0.02.

-TH

[Bruce Wrenn]

Hi Chris-





If you can, find somebody that can chuck the arbor up in a collet rather than a lathe chuck as that will usually result in a truer surface.





My $0.02.

-THArbors are generally turned between centers. See that little hole in the end where the spotting drill prepared it for turning between centers.

[Mike Goetzke]

If you are looking for perfection go here:

Fixing Arbor Runout (http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=3395953&Forum=f2&Words=%2Barbor%20%2Bflange%20%2Brunout%20-re%3A&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=3395953&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=43413&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post3395953)

[Myk Rian]

OK, when I cut through a board, say 12" x 12", when the wood actually splits(the tail end of the board passes the front of the blade, the piece between the fence and the blade is still being trimmed by the back of the blade. What do I need to do? You can read above as to what I have done. Maybe I messed up on something up there?
You need to check the fence again. Just bump the back away from the blade a bit.

[Leigh Betsch]

I had an old saw with the same problem. I couldn't get my box joint blade to cut to size at all. It needs to be fixed if you want to use a 1/4" blade to cut a 1/4" slot. If you never use a box joint blade you may be ok as lng as you done expect perfection.

[Chris Konikowski]

You need to check the fence again. Just bump the back away from the blade a bit.

Well, I rechecked the fence and the fence was exactly parallel to the miter slot. The blade is actually tilted towards the fence by .0025" in relation to the miter. Now, the question is, try and parallel the blade better or tilt the fence out .003???

Anyone in Houston/Spring want to come help me tune her up? :D

[Chip Lindley]

Respectfully, I submit that you may continue to nit-pick and obcess, OR just set your fence away from the blade another *thou or two*, and use the saw As-Is! Your cutting results seem very acceptable, but for the fence pinching stock as it passes the rear of blade. Fiddle with the Fence, not the Arbor!

[Chip Lindley]

Freud provides a set of shims with their dado sets,to *sneak up* on the precise width of cut. I've never seen a 1/4" blade on a 10" TS, but I have seen two chippers used together to cut exactly 1/4"!

[Tom Henderson2]

Arbors are generally turned between centers. See that little hole in the end where the spotting drill prepared it for turning between centers.


Hi Bruce-

Maybe your arbor has a center hole, but mine does not..... I'm sure it depends on the brand/quality of the saw.

And I'm not sure that turning on centers is necessarily better than putting it in a collet, depending on the lathe being used and the skill of the operater doing the work.

But either should be able to do betterh than 0.0015 runnout.

-TH

[Tom Henderson2]

If you are looking for perfection go here:

Fixing Arbor Runout (http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=3395953&Forum=f2&Words=%2Barbor%20%2Bflange%20%2Brunout%20-re%3A&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=3395953&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=43413&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post3395953)

A very skilled person can do wonders with a file and a good plan.

But for most folks, hand-filing the arbor flange is likely to dish it out and make things worse, rather than better, at least in my view.

Especially when the arbor is buried down inside a saw body and access is limited.

Not for the faint of heart, or those of us without a lot of metalworking expertise!

-TH

[Thad Nickoley]

Sorry for my stupidity, but what is the exact definition of run-out? and how do you manage to measure that closely?

[Chris Konikowski]

If you are looking for perfection go here:

Fixing Arbor Runout (http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=3395953&Forum=f2&Words=%2Barbor%20%2Bflange%20%2Brunout%20-re%3A&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=3395953&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=43413&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post3395953)

Great link!

I just tried it out. I have it down well under .001" now! I would guess .0006-.0007

At this point, I am done messing around. The runout is just fine with me and well inside specs.

I think I am going to leave the blade .002 towards the fence and set the fence .003 out, which should give me a .001 gap to help prevent pinching and kickback.

Now, it is time to drink a beer and eat some dinner. Thanks for everyones help and good night...:D

[Chris Konikowski]

Sorry for my stupidity, but what is the exact definition of run-out? and how do you manage to measure that closely?

Runout is the amount of deviation on the surface from perfectly flat. Think about a car rim. If the mounting flange of the tire is not perfectly flat, the tire has a wobble in it when it spins. The runout is the amount of wobble.

The way I am checking it is with a magnetic base dial indicator running along to flange surface and spinning the arbor lightly by the belt.

If you scroll down the links page, you will see a pic of what I have.

http://www.ptreeusa.com/layout_products.htm

[Neal Clayton]

If the cuts you make are acceptable, then why worry?

What you may see is a series of curved scratches on your cut surface. These can be sanded or planed out.


agree, and what wood doesn't have to be sanded? none last time i checked.

i have a bit of runout on my PM66 too. probably 3-4 thousandths. yeah i get some circular marks on ripped edges, only visible on close inspection. they sand off with 220 paper so who cares.

as long as your cuts are square enough, i don't see a problem.

[hank dekeyser]

Ummmm - yeah I know I'm late to the party, but- my 2 cents. If you are getting THAT picky about your table saw, you need to realize that the machining tolerances for the mitre slot, trunion / carrier spec, etc, etc, etc, ALL come into play here ! What I do is this - make sure the blade is 90degrees to the table, check the mitre slot at the front and rear of the blade (on the same tooth) IF not you need to adjust the table - THEN suqare the fence to the blade. Make some test cuts - done. Normally I end up w/ the back of the fence a little "loose" to eliminate binding. A couple ten thousandths of runout IMHO is hardly worth all the effort to eliminate. Put a different blade on - it probly will change again -

When was the last time you needed to cut a piece of wood to the .0001" ??? It's not a stable medium so it doesnt matter. my 2 cents

[Paul Murphy]

Ran across this thread while doing a search, and have a couple thoughts on the subject.

1) The runout at the arbor flange is multiplied by about 4 to become the runout at the tooth on a 10” blade (1-1/4 from axis to 5 from axis = 4x). With a perfect blade and .001 runout at the arbor flange, there would be .004 runout at the tooth.
2) After measuring the variation in the flatness of my fence facing, I see it might be worthwhile to shim my fence facing closer to flat.
3) I notice that if I mount my blade so as to cancel some of my arbor face runout, my blade runs smoother, and is much less prone to harmonic distortion when cutting thick stock. I also like the full kerf blades, because they are less likely to flutter in this manner.
4) It’s not so much that my woodworking depends on a cut width accurate to .004”, but that excessive blade runout added to excessive fence runout results in blowout of crosscut oak veneer plywood or melamine sheet, or that special piece of curly maple. That blowout is where the excess thousands of an inch all of a sudden become important. You can’t hide veneer blowout with putty, and so now you are running to the store and buying another $80+ sheet of veneer plywood to hopefully finish your project to some level of acceptable quality, and also on time. So actually, if you think about it, woodworking quality can hinge on a few thousandths of an inch accuracy. :)

[george wilson]

Blades are seldom very flat. Are you sure some of the runout isn't caused by the blade? This is why they sell those thick plates to mount on the arbor to check for miter gauge grooves being parallel to the blade.

CAN you see any blade wobble when the saw is running? Usually centrifugal force straightens out minor blade wobbles.