First LV planes

[Mike Heidrick]

Read the last paragraph for the get to it question - I am long winded!

Forgive this power tool user from entering the hollowed grounds of neander but I want some advice on how to learn some finer handtool plane/WW skill. I have already been bugging Cian on woodnet!

I do this every year. The WW show comes to Collinsville and Lee Valley is there and I tell myself to buy a plane. Last year the big bandsaw bug hit me and so that pushed off the plane purchase.

Well, actually I got one plane in 2008 - a Record 60.5 LA block and got a Hock blade for it as well.

So again I am feeling like I want to augment my corded tools with some handtools. Specifically I want a plane that can perfect the flushing of hardwood that has been glued onto the edge of ply (shelves for example or flushing a face frame to a ply carcase or shooting the end of a piece of mitered trim for a perfect glue up. I have also wanted to perfect the dados I have made with a router and clean out the bottoms or make them just a tiny bit deeper.

I have read about the marvels of the LA jack and the two other LV BU planes (BU smoother and jointer). I like the veratility of multi blades/angles in these three planes offering multi function.

I also have my eye on the medium shoulder. I am confident I can find a used/tuned up Stanley #4 or #4.5 easier than any LV plane by far. In fact a plane guy in my club could probably set up pretty cheaply. I even have a couple garage sale finds that need help already but they need a lot of help.

Would I be doing myself any harm in starting out with a LV medium shoulder plane and the LV LA Jack and maybe an additional 38* blade to get me started into planes (I own a record LA block plane as well)?

[Mike Cutler]

Read the last paragraph for the get to it question - I am long winded
Would I be doing myself any harm in starting out with a LV medium shoulder plane and the LV LA Jack and maybe an additional 38* blade to get me started into planes (I own a record LA block plane as well)?

In my opinion, no you would not be making a mistake buying either, or both, of those planes. The shoulder plane is obviously a little more purpose specific than the LA Jack, but you will eventually own one. No reason not to get one now and learn to use it.

As for the additional blade for the LA Jack, that's a personal decision. I know that I would probably not get an extra blade myself. I would just get a #5 to keep at the ready. I'm too lazy to switch blades in the middle of something. That's just me though.:D

They're both fine tools that are frequently used in the shop. Problem is that planes multiply like rabbits. Next thing you know you can't remember just how many you have.;)

[Rob Luter]

Hi Mike,

I went that route (Medium Shoulder + LA Jack). I purchased all three blade angles with the Jack and have been happy I did. The 25 degree is pretty much dedicated to shooting end grain, I use the the 38 degree for jointing and smoothing and the 50 degree for tough grain conditions. The 50 degree also makes a great final smoother on face grain. The A2 blade material really holds up nice. I use it all the time. I use the shoulder plane less frequently but it's a very handy tool to have.

[John Keeton]

Mike, you may have seen some posts on this, but fellow creeker John Dykes visited with me and brought his BU Jack and Smoother. We tried the various blade combinations on both walnut and some curly maple. My clear choice was the Jack with the 25* and 50* blades - best of all worlds! I will say that I have my Dad's old "no name" #4 that serves me very well, but the BU Jack is a very nice plane. I saw no need for the smoother.

I also have the medium shoulder plane (my entire plane collection is no more than about 5 planes.) As the others have said, it is a specialty plane, but it does what it does perfectly.

I would say that you are making a very good choice - then look for a #4 somewhere. With your LA block, you should be in good shape to head down the slope! I am just over the edge and heading down!

[lowell holmes]

I have both planes and all of the irons for the bevel up jack plane. The 25 degree is used for shooting. I use the 38 degree (sharpened at 40 degrees) for most applications.

I can recommend the planes and I'm glad I have all of the irons. It only takes a minute to swap out. I keep a block of paraffin to check the iron for squareness in the plane before using.

I also have a LN 4 1/2 that I treasure for smoothing.

[Thomas Pender]

There is no such thing as a "bad" hand plane purchase from LV as long as you know what you are going to use it for. As I have said before, my medium shoulder plane is a wonder. I do not have a LV Jack, but have their Bevel Up Smoother and BU Jointer, Block and a Stanley Jack. Am considering the LV or LN Jack, plus various other planes they make. LV shows up, usually along with LN at the Dulles Expo Wood Show in March and I can barely wait. They usually throw free shipping in at that time. Hand Plane acqusition is the most pleasant slope I have ever got started going down. It has forced me to really learn how to sharpen and I can do a decent job on panels now that are too big for other than a 40" planer. Also, you can raise a sweat with planes and get in a little exercise.

Suggest you also consider some mortise chisels, swan necks, etc., too. These can be sharpened with the same stuff. My belief, as user of both hand and power tools is that hand tools materially increase what you can do and are more satisfying to use.

Finally - you do realize you need a substantial bench, with vise, and bench dogs to use with hand planes????;) (Another path on the slope.)

[Danny Thompson]

Great picks, Mike! Regarding the 38º blade, John has a good point about the 50º. But an even better choice that was once suggested by Derek Cohen was skip the 38º and 50º blades altogether and get a second 25º blade instead. The reason is that it will be easier to create a camber on the 25º blade than the steeper blades, and you can simply hone a 38º or 50º microbevel on that blade whenever you need one.

I have done this with my LAJ--one square 25º-er for shooting and one cambered 25º-er currently with a 50º microbevel for flattening and smoothing.

Something to think about.

[David Keller NC]

Mike - I'm basing this opinion on having and using several dozen metal planes and several hundred wooden ones, and most of what I do is entirely hand-work, including preparation of rough boards, with the possible exception of using a powered planer to take off a bunch of wood to thickness a plank to size.

My thought is that you may want to consider doing what amounts to the opposite of what your original post suggests; that is, buying new, ready-out-of-the-box "joinery planes" like a jack and shoulder, and an antique smoother. It's not that an antique smoother won't work well - they certainly will, if you find one in decent condition and replace the blade with a Hock. I have several of these.

However, the lateral and blade extension adjustments on a smoother are far more critical than on a medium or roughing plane, and this is where one of the new planes from Lee Valley or Lie-Nielsen will really shine. They are also set-up to take a considerably thicker blade than an antique Stanley, and it's been my experience that this really does matter, particularly on dense or figured wood.

So what I might suggest is finding an antique Stanely #5 or #6 to use as a medium-length plane, with a Hock blade, and buy a Lie-Nielsen (my preference) #4 or 4 1/2, or a Lee-Valley equivalent (a whole lot of other people's preference). Or, of course, the Lee-Valley low-angle smoother or the Lie-Nielsen #164.

Regarding shooting miters - no question that you can use any of the Lie-Nielsen and some of the Lee Valley bench planes for this purpose (some of the Lee-Valley planes have curved sides, so these won't work too well on a shooting board), but I'd suggest using a short-soled plane in the 9" range. The reason is that based on your post, I'm guessing you're working on mitered stiles and rails in the 2-3" wide range, and a long plane takes more room, so your shooting board may wind up longer than it needs to be. While this would not be my suggestion for a first or even second plane, the Lie-Nielsen #9 miter plane is a superb plane for this task, and hundreds of dollars cheaper than an antique Stanley.

[Jim Koepke]

Mike,
Welcome to the den of the slippery slope.


So again I am feeling like I want to augment my corded tools with some handtools. Specifically I want a plane that can perfect the flushing of hardwood that has been glued onto the edge of ply (shelves for example or flushing a face frame to a ply carcase or shooting the end of a piece of mitered trim for a perfect glue up.

For this, as has been mentioned, a plane in the 3, 4 or 4-1/2 size may be the best choice. These are all about the same length, the width and feel is different. For small hands, the 3 may be the most comfortable. For big hands, the 4-1/2 is a good size. I have all three and medium hands. The 4-1/2 is the most comfortable for me. The handle is a bit bigger, but it is harder to push on somethings because of the wider blade. For normal narrow edges, it is almost too wide unless the plane needs to be skewed. Then the 4-1/2 can get a steeper angle and still cover the edge.

Heck, get 'em all. If you are going this route, the 4-1/2 is the hardest to get on the used market. Buy some old Stanley for the 3 and/or 4 and buy the 4-1/2 new. I got lucky on my old 4-1/2. Found one in exceptional shape in an antique shop for $30.

If possible, try out all of these at a show or store. Usually at a show they are set up so they can be tried on a piece of wood. You may even want to try a #5 or 5-1/2.


I have also wanted to perfect the dados I have made with a router and clean out the bottoms or make them just a tiny bit deeper.

For this, I would use chisels. Score the sides of the dado at the bottom and with a sharp chisel, a shaving can be removed to make it just a tiny bit deeper.


Would I be doing myself any harm in starting out with a LV medium shoulder plane and the LV LA Jack and maybe an additional 38* blade to get me started into planes (I own a record LA block plane as well)?

I do not own any LV planes. The LV Jack is about the size of a #5, so would be a good size plane to have in the arsenal.

As others have said, the shoulder plane is a special purpose plane. It is not likely to be good for making dados just a tiny bit deeper. A plow plane, like a Stanley or equivalent, would be the best plane for that. The shoulder plane has a set width, it would likely not do this job well.
Mine does get used a lot fitting shelves into a dado. It is easy to take a little off the thickness at the ends of a shelf to fit into a dado.

Again as others have mentioned, sharpening is the biggest challenge to finding satisfaction with hand tools.

jim

[David Keller NC]

One other comment - for deepening dados (by definition cross-grain - one that's with the grain is a rabbet if it's on the edge of the board, or a groove if it's in the middle), the classic tool for this is a router plane. Period guys typically sawed out the sides of the groove with a back-saw or a stair saw, chiseled out the bulk of the waste, then cleaned the bottom up with a router plane if necessary.

Router planes were traditionally made of wood, and designed to accept the plow plane (wooden plow plane) blades that he had. In the 19th century, these planes became more specialized, and though still wooden, used a purpose-made blade. Stanley came out with an all-metal version in the late 19th century, and produced scads of them, so they're easy to come by at flea markets.

However, the Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley versions of the Stanley design are vast improvements - I would buy this new, if possible.

[Mike Heidrick]

Did a count of my planes that need rehab but that are in good shape and nothing froze or damaged.

One Bedrock 603 Corrugated (stamped 1910 - pretty old for my shop)
2 Stanley Bailey #4s (one pretty good shape)
1 #4 not sure who makes it betting Stanley
1 Miller Falls #4.5 I believe (real good shape)
1 groz No80
1 Stanley No80
1 Record 60 1/2
Two stanley block planes non adjustable mouth
Some other orange and blue block plane

I think I will get these into some Mineral Spirits and try and get them cleaned up.

I think with these I will wait on the #4 and try and get a LN just because I love the feel of my buddies #4 LN.

[george wilson]

I have one of the LN miter planes with an A2 blade. Very nice plane. David,if you could buy LN plane blade to fit some of your planes currently using a Hock iron,I think you'd find yourself spending less time sharpening. 1095 is good for saw blades,as it will take a spring temper,as it must. A2 is a much longer wearing steel,and still capable of a razor edge,though 1095 will take a little sharper edge,it's a trade off for wearing sooner.

I'll tell you a steel that is VERY good at wear resistance. D2. No one except knife makers use it as it is pretty expensive. Also,it seems like only the ceramic stones are hard enough to get it really sharp. I made a hunting knife from D2. It was my first D2 knife. I couldn't get it quite sharp enough to shave hairs. Then,I got the white and black Spyderco ceramic stones from Brownell's Gunsmith supply. Starting with a diamond stone,then going to the black,then the white Spyerco stones,I easily brought up a razor edge. The stones I had been using were too soft for the D2 steel. D2 is a wear resistant steel made for use in shearing and punching other hard steels. It is extremely alloyed,with about 12% chrome,and other metals. Not quite stainless.

D2 has the curious property of not seeming as sharp as it really is.1095 can feel sharp as a straight razor. D2 kind of sneaks up on you. It also has the unusual property when highly polished,of showing thousands of interlocked pyramids in its surface.

Well,this is nice,but unless someone custom makes an iron for you,it cannot be had. An iron custom made would be excessively expensive. It's the sort of thing that needs to be manufactured in batches to begin to be near cost effective.It is tough to machine,and requires good heat treating equipment to harden and draw it. Maybe some time I'll make one just to test it in a plane. So far,only made knives from it.

Nobody ask me to make one,please. I've too many other things to do right now.

Beyond D2,there are new powdered metal steels that have greater durability than ever before. They are VERY expensive to buy. Probably a plane iron's worth of it would be close to $100.00 for metal alone. I am not sure that it is made in thinner sizes anyway. In a basic description,steels can be alloyed more highly than normally possible by combining the alloys in fine powder,and squeezeing it under great heat and pressure into a solid mass. It is presently used for expensive,special tooling. I wonder if it will become more commonly made,and cheaper? It is no longer in the MSC catalog. Probably too costly.My cost estimates are a hazy memory.

[Phillip Pattee]

Rqy Iles makes D2 stanley replacement blades. Joel at Tools for Working Wood sells them. You can also get blades made from M2 HSS from Academy Saws. Craftsman Studio sells these. These blades are quite a bit more expensive than Hock, LV, or LN blades. Right now, however, Craftsman Studio has the Academy Saws blades on sale.

[george wilson]

Good to know,Phillip. I make so many of my own tools,except for my LN planes,I am not always out there shopping around.

[David Keller NC]

"I have one of the LN miter planes with an A2 blade. Very nice plane. David,if you could buy LN plane blade to fit some of your planes currently using a Hock iron,I think you'd find yourself spending less time sharpening. 1095 is good for saw blades,as it will take a spring temper,as it must. A2 is a much longer wearing steel,and still capable of a razor edge,though 1095 will take a little sharper edge,it's a trade off for wearing sooner."

George, as odd as it may sound, The Hock blades hold up far longer in my shop before needing a touch-up than the A2s from Lie-Nielsen. In fact, all of the Hock blades have been exceptional performers. It's not that I don't like the L-N blades, they've been pretty good, but I've also had two from them that were not acceptable. One was the original iron that came in my #9 miter plane - it had the extremely odd property of both breaking on the edge (chipping) and folding over. They cheerfully replaced it, and the new one is far better.

The other was the original iron from my 5-1/2. I haven't sent it back yet, though I'll get around to it eventually. It's just too soft - it instantly dulls from its initial razor sharp state when put to moderately hard mahogany. It even dulls after about 5 passes down an Eastern White Pine board. Close examination with a magnifying glass shows that the edge just folds over, despite a 30 degree grind and a 5 degree micro-bevel.

I've also had this experience with the set of dovetail chisels from them. The edges just won't stand up to paring in moderately hard mahogany or cherry - the very edge folds over. This was one of the first sets they produced, and I know others on the forum have later sets that show good edge retention.

My impression is that they may have had some issues to work through concerning the tempering of some of the blades rather than inherent properties of the A2 steel. I'll note, though, that I'm very happy with L-N - they've corrected 3 tools with defects cheerfully, and the replacements were top-notch. Not many companies out there with that kind of customer service.

[george wilson]

David,if the irons are too hard,and chipping,or too soft,and folding over,not to denigrate LN,but it sounds like heat treating issues. D2 is designed for very tough duty chomping harder steels. It is used in mega expensive die work. I did get an 01 blade hat was too soft from them once.They replaced it.

I had a hardness tester,one of the best,at work. I need to find one for home. It's the only thing I don't have here that I really want to get. I make dies and punches for our business that punch out many thousands of parts before sharpening. Quality control of their hardness is very important. Too much trouble to make twice.

A simple test is to take a BRAND NEW Nicholson 8" smooth file,one that is not at all shiny on the teeth,at least. If the tool can BARELY be filed,it is at an ideal balance of hardness and temper. The temper of the tool is a balancing act. Too much hardness,and the micro edge breaks down. Temper adds toughness,but too much tempering gets it too soft. There is only a 25 degree window of ideal heat treating.

I HOPE LN doesn't go back to 01 because of problems with more sophisticated metal processing.The iron that both chipped and folded sounds like some air got to the A2 in hardening,decarborizing part of the surface and making soft areas. Then,it wasn't drawn to high enough temperature to get the hard surfaces soft enough. I have no idea what equipment they have. Make them replace everything that isn't right. This is only a guess,but I have used these metals for a long time.

[Brian Kent]

Mike - I'm basing this opinion on having and using several dozen metal planes and several hundred wooden ones, and most of what I do is entirely hand-work,

David, this sounds like something interesting. How have you had opportunity to try out hundreds of wooden planes? Are you a plane maker or an afficionado?

Brian

[David Keller NC]

"David, this sounds like something interesting. How have you had opportunity to try out hundreds of wooden planes? Are you a plane maker or an afficionado?"

I've had the opportunity because I own them. Part of this was a bit of overboard enthusiasm on tool collecting, part of it was interest in alternative designs and materials in the shop. I should note that not all of my woodies are bench planes (several hundred jacks, jointers and smoothers would really be hurtling down the slippery slope!), a good number of them are joinery planes or molding planes. I've perhaps 20 wooden bench planes, about 50 joinery planes, and the rest are molders - either crown molders, complex narrow molders, side beads, or hollows & rounds.

Among the metal ones, I've plenty of old Stanelys (mostly not collector's items, but users that have been tuned and the blades replaced with Hocks), and a number of Norris, Spiers and Mathiesons in various configurations. The new ones that I have to compare to the antiques are Lie-Nielsens, a few Veritas, and 3 Sauer and Steiners.

-Editorializing Here-

This has been my experience - If you are working well-behaved stock (i.e., thight, consistent grain all the way down the board, no swirls, knots, curl or other figuring), it's difficult to tell the difference between a wooden smoother that's been "throated" (the mouth closed up), an old non-Bedrock Stanley, a Lie-Nielsen, or any of the other antiques. Where I start to find real differences in performance is in figured stock, wavy grain, boards that have grain reversal, or other more demanding situations.

The Lie-Nielsens are my best performers in general, figured-grain, not-so-hard situations - there really is a difference between them and an old, well-tuned Stanley. I attribute this to a much thicker blade and a generally heavier tool than the equivalent Stanley. In highly figured, hard grain (such as curly maple), the British infills that have their original blades (and thus a tighter mouth) and Konrad Sauer's versions are considerably better performers than any of the bedrock and derivative designs. That performance generally has to do with tear-out - the British infills will generally not tear the grain out, even when planing in the obvious wrong direction. They also seem to do better in really hard stuff like cocobolo, honduran rosewood, ebony, and the like, as they don't chatter. My stanleys, lie-Nielsens and Vertas planes do this (chatter), unless I'm going at the grain at more than a 45 degree angle skew.

Having said all of that, there's work arounds for a beginner working highly figured stock that has less expensive planes - a well-tuned old Stanely with a Hock blade, light shavings, and techniques such as skewing the plane on the planing stroke will get one close, then the surface can be scraped, either with the traditional card scraper or a scraper plane. It's just more work, which is why I prefer to have the higher-end tools around.

I'd lastly note that, in agreement with Chris Schwarz' blog entries on this subject, the biggest difference I've seen in controlling tearout with equivalently-designed planes (for example, woodies against woodies) is with higher planing angles. In my experience, this makes much more of a difference than tighter mouths, closely-set chip breakers, etc...

I suspect this might be partly why those that have Clark and Williams smoothers find them to be superb performers in difficult situations. As I understand it, they are set to "middle pitch" (60 degrees).

[Mike Heidrick]

I bought the LV Veritas Low Angle Jack today. Also added teh 38 degree blade. I am holding off on the medium shoulder due to a couple other shop changes coming. Hope to use the LA Jack and practice and learn.

[John Sanford]

I keep a block of paraffin to check the iron for squareness in the plane before using.

Lowell, could you please elaborate?