Dumb question about squaring up large panels on table saws...

[Sean Rainaldi]

OK this is probably a stupid question about table saws, I’m still learning how to use my new grizzly.

I thought it was possible to square up a large panel using only the (well calibrated) fence?!?!... I’m having a terrible time doing it.

I’m trying to square up a panel that measures about 22 ½ x 20” and just can’t seem to get it square - it’s off by about 1/16 to 1/8 or an inch…I was able to get a separate panel perfectly square no problem by using the fence only, but now I can’t duplicate the results on a different panel. I’m cutting Baltic birch plywood.

I know my fence is true, because I used the five cut method to calibrate the fence to the blade, and for a panel that measures about 22 x 22 inches, the difference in width of the strip I trim off the panel on my fifth cut, is only about .001 to .002 which is excellent for a 22 inch long strip. I thought that once that the five cut method was done and I shimmed out my fence, that I’m all set and I should be able to square up larger panels with no problem (I guess not)... I used the five cut method on the miter gauge as well and got it all trued out..

I'm also confused how my fence could be that well calibrated and I can get a strip width difference to within .002 inches on a panel that is not square

My miter gauge is of course too close to the blade to cut that wide of a panel. I also bought the Incra Miter Express but I think that is too close to blade as well…

Isn’t there a way, some technique I can use to square up a large panel on a table saw using only the fence (sorry for dumb question), without having to rig up some kind of a large crosscut sled?

[frank shic]

sean, that's actually a very good question. the five cut square method is really a way to calibrate a crosscutting sled or sliding table. i don't think it was meant for califbrating the rip fence. you may want to consider building a crosscut fence. trying to square up a panel using just the rip fence sounds like an exercise in futility as the deviations add up with multiple cuts.

[Rick Gooden]

Sean, the fence can only produce accurate parallel cuts. If your piece is a parallelogram, thats what you will wind up with no matter how many cuts you make. You will need to square with a crosscut device, like a sled, or perhaps a circular saw and guide system.

[Danny Thompson]

If your board isn't already square, you can't get it square using a rip fence alone, you must use a jig that ensures a square cut (miter guage or crosscut sled) for at least one pass.

[Peter Quinn]

Ditto what Sean said. The five cut method is a great way to square a slider or cross cut sled's fence to the blade but is virtually useless for calibrating a rip fence. For this you typically set the blade parallel to a miter slot then set the rip fence parallel to the miter slot, there by insuring the blade and fence are parallel.

To get a square panel you must make at least three cuts. First you can make two opposing edges parallel using the rip fence, then you must move the remaining edges past the blade using one of these parallel edges as a reference via a sled whose fence is at 90 degrees to the blade. Otherwise you simply recreate any error present in the original panel. Opposing sides parallel but adjacent angles not at 90 degreesl defines a parallelogram, not a square or rectangle. On a slider I make four cuts to square panels, 1/4 turn per pass, always rotating in the same direction to avoid getting confused. On a TS it may be easier to rip the longest edges parallel and then cross cut the shortest edges with a sled.

I am just finishing construction of a sled from a recent FWW article that is capable of handling large panels using a saw horse as an outrigger and a 36" steel bar as the miter bar, essentially a miter gauge on steroids. Seems to me the best design for large panels I have seen, fairly easy to construct.

[Sean Rainaldi]

OK thanks very much guys I don't feel that dumb anymore.

When I bought that Incra Miter Express, the guy at Incra told me that I could cut out large panels square but after I set it up I realized it would not work. I am wondering now what I bought it for, having never owned a table saw I was clue-less.

Actually, how do cabinet makers cut out squared up cabinet panels? I will have more cabinets to build, what do cab makers use or what kind of jig do they use on their table saws to cut squared up sides, backs, floors, etc for kitchen cabinets?

Peter, I'll check out that article, what issue was it in Fine Woodworking? Are there other plans available somewhere on the net, that I can take a look at and build myself?

Is there a commercial “crosscut fence” or “crosscut sled” or some such jig I can buy (I thought that’s what the Incra was for)?

[frank shic]

sean, they usually use either a high-end ($15k and up) vertical panel saw, a true european format slider (similar to a MAJORLY beefed up table saw) or a CNC router - a low end shopbot example is probably sitting in the banner next to the sawmillcreek logo. the cheapest is probably a european format slider like an altendorf. the easiest may be the vertical panel saw. the quickest and most expensive will be either a CNC router or a beam saw.

there are a number of aftermarket crosscut sleds that you can purchase like the dubby or the incra as well as sliding tables like mast-r-slide or exaktor/excalibur, delta/grizzly... it all depends what you're going to be cutting and how much you're willing to spend.

this is one of my favorite websites when it comes to the discussion of crosscutting sleds vs tables:

http://benchmark.20m.com/articles/CrosscutSleds/crosscutsled_design_guide.html
http://benchmark.20m.com/articles/SurveyOfSlidingTables/surveyofslidingtables.html

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Sean,

Here is the video that I used to make mine. It works welll. I made mine out of some scrap plywood I had in the shop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZFOX9kUKm4

[Paul Ryan]

Sean,

This was the most important and useful jig I have ever built for my table saw and it cost next to nothing. It is 25" deep so I can cross cut most panels. If I need to cut something larger I use my circular saw with a 40th freud blade, and a guide board. Once you build a cross cut sled you will never use the miter guage again unless you are doing miters. Norms sled will cut larger panels, but is useless cutting numerous smaller pieces. I am sure he as a cross cut sled also. The other idea is to but a sliding extension that bolts on your table saw. Except they are expensive and I think could get in the way at times. My .02 cents

[Sean Rainaldi]

sean, they usually use either a high-end ($15k and up) vertical panel saw, a true european format slider (similar to a MAJORLY beefed up table saw) or a CNC router - a low end shopbot example is probably sitting in the banner next to the sawmillcreek logo. the cheapest is probably a european format slider like an altendorf. the easiest may be the vertical panel saw. the quickest and most expensive will be either a CNC router or a beam saw.

there are a number of aftermarket crosscut sleds that you can purchase like the dubby or the incra as well as sliding tables like mast-r-slide or exaktor/excalibur, delta/grizzly... it all depends what you're going to be cutting and how much you're willing to spend.

this is one of my favorite websites when it comes to the discussion of crosscutting sleds vs tables:

http://benchmark.20m.com/articles/CrosscutSleds/crosscutsled_design_guide.html
http://benchmark.20m.com/articles/SurveyOfSlidingTables/surveyofslidingtables.html

So the Incra Miter 5000 or miter express is not for cutting say 22" x 32" panels?

What would roughly be the largest panel I could cut on a miter 5000 mounted to a grizzly 1023sl tablesaw?

[frank shic]

the crosscut sled was one of the first jigs i made but i just got sick and tired of having to remove the blade guard every time before using it and dragging it on to the tablesaw. i quickly replaced that with the delta sliding attachment which i absolutely loved except for the capacity and then graduated to the exaktor which is AWESOME when it comes to breaking down large panels although it does take up a huge amount of garage space.

[george wilson]

BEWARE OF THE INCA MITER GAUGE!!!! The anodized aluminum is terribly slippery!! I have had trouble with mine,and am putting an accurate piece of wood on mine. It lets the wood slip sideways,even when you are holding it tight.

Do you know that INCA means injection cast aluminum?

[Sean Rainaldi]

sean, they usually use either a high-end ($15k and up) vertical panel saw, a true european format slider (similar to a MAJORLY beefed up table saw) or a CNC router - a low end shopbot example is probably sitting in the banner next to the sawmillcreek logo. the cheapest is probably a european format slider like an altendorf. the easiest may be the vertical panel saw. the quickest and most expensive will be either a CNC router or a beam saw.

there are a number of aftermarket crosscut sleds that you can purchase like the dubby or the incra as well as sliding tables like mast-r-slide or exaktor/excalibur, delta/grizzly... it all depends what you're going to be cutting and how much you're willing to spend.

this is one of my favorite websites when it comes to the discussion of crosscutting sleds vs tables:

http://benchmark.20m.com/articles/CrosscutSleds/crosscutsled_design_guide.html
http://benchmark.20m.com/articles/SurveyOfSlidingTables/surveyofslidingtables.html

Thanks again I just read the info...

I checked out the Grizzly site, the G4227 sliding table attachment looks good except that I have the G1023 SL and Griz claims this slider will not fit on my saw. Guess I should have bought the right tilt, I did not research this very well I guess. Any commercial alternatives for my saw out there? I like the Griz because it's economical...

[Vince Shriver]

I have done a quick and dirty square up of large panel by getting close to square by using a guide and circular saw. Then clamp the panel on top of a factory cut edge sheet of plywood or mdf with the panel slightly overhanging one edge of the mdf and one edge exactly flush with an adjcent mdf edge. The overhang should be small, mabye a sixteenth or less, making sure that the entire edge panel overhangs the mdf edge. Using a pilot bearing and straight bit, route the overhang to match the factory edge and you have two perpendicular edges at 90 degrees. You can then use the rip fence on the table saw to square the panel by cutting the two remaining sides. I would put a framing square on the mdf before doing this, but usually factory sheet goods are right on the money.

[Sean Rainaldi]

Sean,

Here is the video that I used to make mine. It works welll. I made mine out of some scrap plywood I had in the shop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZFOX9kUKm4

Thanks very much Ken just checked out the vid - looks a lot cheaper than buying a commercial sled I might build one myself. How accurate is that sled anyway - can you get your cuts to within no more than say .005" or .010 run out over a 24 inch miter cut?

[Danny Thompson]

Here is one offered by Rockler. It also allows you to cut miters.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=21516&filter=crosscut%20sled

I've never used it.

[Sean Rainaldi]

Sean,

This was the most important and useful jig I have ever built for my table saw and it cost next to nothing. It is 25" deep so I can cross cut most panels. If I need to cut something larger I use my circular saw with a 40th freud blade, and a guide board. Once you build a cross cut sled you will never use the miter guage again unless you are doing miters. Norms sled will cut larger panels, but is useless cutting numerous smaller pieces. I am sure he as a cross cut sled also. The other idea is to but a sliding extension that bolts on your table saw. Except they are expensive and I think could get in the way at times. My .02 cents

Thanks Paul - did you build that from plans from a magazine or site? Or is that your own design?

[Sean Rainaldi]

the crosscut sled was one of the first jigs i made but i just got sick and tired of having to remove the blade guard every time before using it and dragging it on to the tablesaw. i quickly replaced that with the delta sliding attachment which i absolutely loved except for the capacity and then graduated to the exaktor which is AWESOME when it comes to breaking down large panels although it does take up a huge amount of garage space.

Sounds great. The Delta of which I believe Grizzly has a clone, does it fit on a G1023 grizzly? Griz's version won't fit on my left tilt.

Or will the exator fit (I'll bet it's expensive though)?

[Paul Ryan]

Sean,


That was my own design. There are lots of designs on the internet, most of them more fancy, with plastic blade guardes and tape measures. I just combined what I thought would be useful and threw out what I thought would be useless to me. It was real simple. It has 2 hard wood runners at the bottom. Making those so they fit snugly but not too tight is the hardest part. Then attaching the fence because it had to be perfectly square. To square my fence I just used a square off of the blade and lined up the fence off the square. The fence had glue at the bottom of it and once it was lined up I shot a bunch of brads into it from the bottom of the sled, to hold until the glue dried. Once word of advice don't try to slide it while the glue is drying. I tried to right after I shot the brads in and the pressure of it sliding in the miter slots caused the fence to tweak out of square. Once it dried I realized it was out of square, so I had to cut the fence off and start over. It is real easy, to build. The sliding miter is a really nice option but I rather make my own jigs and save the money for other tools. Good luck.

Paul

[Chris Holder]

Hi Sean,

I will ditto what everyone else has said in that you need some kind of slider or crosscut sled. Yes you can buy these in the form of sliding tables, vertical panel saws, etc., but this is a GREAT first project, and will take a minimum of time and wood. Others have pointed out several designs, any of which work well. I made my first crosscut sled 5 years ago and use it literally EVERY time I am in the shop. Miter guages only work on the skinniest stock and unless you purchase an aftermarket gauge, most do not have a way of making repeatable cuts (as you would get with a sled, a stop block, and a clamp). Make one big enough to handle the normal size panels you cut (you can, (and probably will) make bigger or smaller ones later). I think exercises in jig making are where many of us hone our skills. You can spend $100-$700 on variations of sliding attachments, or $20 worth of scrap wood and a couple of hours and achieve the same results.

My .02

[frank shic]

the exaktor retails for over $900 on amazon.com but i got mine for less than $500 on craigslist. they show up every so often once the owner realizes how much space it takes up!

[glenn bradley]

I trim one edge with a guided circ-saw if necessary, rip to width and sled to length. I have various sleds for different reasons. They are the most reliable inexpensive squaring device I can think of. Even a detailed one (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=50581) only take a few hours to build and can be sized to your needs. I wouldn't be without them unless I had a rock solid slider.

[Chris Padilla]

When I bought that Incra Miter Express, the guy at Incra told me that I could cut out large panels square but after I set it up I realized it would not work. I am wondering now what I bought it for, having never owned a table saw I was clue-less.

Sean,

I have an Incra M5000K miter sled and it works just fine to square up cuts. I use it all the time...even with larger stuff that can be a little cumbersome. I looked at the Miter Express and in my eyes, it is a bit on the small side for cutting what you want but it could still possibly work.

I think you've got it figured out now about squaring up stock with a table saw.

Still, building a nice crosscut sled as indicated by many on this thread is a great exercise for you and an invaluable tool to have for the table saw.

One thing very nice about the Incra stuff is their miter bars. Frankly, I think they are the best thing to use for building jigs that require use of the miter slots on your table saw. Unlike hardwood, they won't swell/shrink over time nor wear like hardwood. They can be tuned to slide very nicely yet firmly in the miter slot.

Good luck in your quest and welcome to woodworking! It is a fun adventure!

[Jose Kilpatrick]

Measure diagonally before you cut and check to see how much out of square you are.
Then use a large square to draw your lines all the way around the panel.

Build a panel cutting jig out of scrap mdf.

Attached a hardwood strip to fit in your slot leaving about a 1/4" overlap over the blade. Run it through the blade to trim the end off your sled.
Then attach the fence with a square, squared up to the end you trimmed.

Now you have two square edges to work with.

[Peter Quinn]

Sean, check out FWW issue #199, for John P. McCormack's Ultimate cross cut sled article. Maybe not for everyone, but I was impressed with the design. I also have a Dewalt GR42 long arm RAS that cross cuts 24" square in my home shop, and at work I use an SCMI 12' sliding TS and Griggio 5' slider to square sheet goods and panels. A panel saw makes easy work of squaring panels, its the $12,000 part thats hard!

Frankly, a good skill saw with a fine cross cut blade and a shop made t square (like a dry wall square made of plywood as a reference for the saw) and a couple of clamps will allow you to make one edge square, then you can rip the opposing edge on the TS. I know guys that have built entire kitchens with only a skill saw and a router.

[Frederick Rowe]

Sean - A lot of good advise here. Regardless of what you ultimately find as a solution, try building a sled. So inexpensive, and it can be capable of great precision especially with small pieces which wouldn't be safe to cut on a sliding table attachment. And if you end up buying a slider attachment, you've picked up some experience and provided you didn't build a huge sled, it can useful at some point - if even only as a serving tray.

Now, as an alternative to using a sled, particularly a large one for squaring up larger panels (but not breaking down 4x8 sheet goods), consider if finances allow, the Jessem Mast-R-Slide. It will work on your Grizzly although you may have to either cut down the fence guide on the left side, or slide the fence guide to the right (which may involve re-drilling attachment holes). Search under Mast-R-Slide on SMC will result in many threads. I've had one on my Unisaw for several years and have found it to be a great value.

[Laurie Brown]

Thanks very much Ken just checked out the vid - looks a lot cheaper than buying a commercial sled I might build one myself. How accurate is that sled anyway - can you get your cuts to within no more than say .005" or .010 run out over a 24 inch miter cut?

I would recommend watching that entire episode of NYW, especially if you are new to using table saws. I have that one off the DVR and I keep the DVD handy. A crosscut sled is one of the first things I made when I got my new saw, and they are easy to make and very helpful for keeping things square.

Here's the one I made:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=47199

It's simple, but it works.

[george wilson]

Frederick,if you find your saw won't QIUTE cut square,it's probably the slippery surface of the aluminum miter gauge. I'm attaching wood to mine.

[Jerome Hanby]

If you like building shop gadgets, there is a project in the "Shop Accessories You Can Build (http://www.amazon.com/Shop-Accessories-Build-Best-Woodworking/dp/1561581186/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233944397&sr=8-1)" for a sliding table. Other pretty good projects too. You can get it though one of amazon's partners for about five bucks including shipping! Remember to go through SMC to buy Amazon!

[Robyn Horton]

If the Jessem Mast-R-Slide looks interesting to you Rockler has it on Sale for $200 off Reg $599 for $399

[Frederick Rowe]

Frederick,if you find your saw won't QIUTE cut square,it's probably the slippery surface of the aluminum miter gauge. I'm attaching wood to mine.George - I ran into the same problem. I cut narrow strips of self adhesive 800 grit sandpaper and placed them on the fence. Now wood is locked in place with little griping effort.

[Sean Rainaldi]

Thanks to everyone for all your great advice.

I was finally able to get my Incra Miter Express tuned up to cut square, I can now cut up to about a 23 inch wide panel repeatably square.

I will probabally build my own crosscut sled for larger panels than that, I find anything bigger than 23 inches on the Incra is cumbersome and not that repeatable. I'll try some kind of sandpaper on the incra sled and see how that works out.

By the way, how square is square? Would you consider that anything less than 1/64 of an inch out of square for a 22 x 30 inch panel is "square enough", for building kitchen cabinets?

Thanks again.