Terribly confused on how to buy rough lumber....please help!

[George Farra]

Hello Everyone

I'll be visiting my first hardwood supplier next weekend and I am very confused on how to request the lumber for my needs.

I used the board foot calculator on woodworkersource.net and it came up with approx 50 board feet w/ 30% waste. The final size of the parts range in thickness from 4/4 to 10/4 stock. Also, many parts can be cut from the same board as they are 4" and 2.25" wide.

So do I break down my order by thickness and total board feet....4/4 20 board feet, 5/4 20 board feet, 10/4 10 board feet.

OR should I have an exact list of thicknesses, widths and lengths....4/4 8" wide by 8' long, 5/4 6" wide by 8' long, 10/4 5" wide by 4' long, etc

I'm very confused

Thanks for your help

George

[Kevin Godshall]

What type of supplier are you going to? I go to a local bandmill for rough cut and the sizes (widths and lengths) are not to standard dimensions. For example: a rough 6" board could be 6 or could be 6 3/4. 8 foot lengths could be up to 8' 6".

Sometimes I get my best deals on undersized material: 5' lengths, random widths. One sawyer makes me take whatever comes off the pile, and then, after its laid tight in the bed of the truck, rough measures it and calculates footage that way.

Have a good idea of what you need and make sure to get a bit more. Dimensioning your own lumber will reveal things you may or may not expect. Good Luck!!

[Chris Padilla]

George,

What you are likely to face is that the supplier won't have exactly what you want and you'll have to stand there and figure out (quickly?) what you can use from what he has and how you need to adjust what you buy.

If you have the necessary tools (bandsaw, jointer, planer, table saw), it is often better to buy larger pieces if it is vitally important to have good color and grain matching throughout the project (and frankly, this is almost always true).

You might get lucky and find boards all cut from the same log and then you won't need a larger, heavier board.

You may need to face glue boards to get the thicker stock you want.

As long as you know the rough final dimensions of your project, hopefully you can mentally mark the boards you will see in order to help you determine how you can build it from the stock physically in front of you.

When you've done that, grab an extra board just for good measure if you can!

[Rob Russell]

You may need to face glue boards to get the thicker stock you want.


I'd think that George would be able to get 12/4.

If the thick stock is for legs, you could always use the Stickley approach and glue 4 triangle-shaped pieces together to form the leg stock. The seams end up being on the outside corners.

[Chris Padilla]

I'd think that George would be able to get 12/4.

If the thick stock is for legs, you could always use the Stickley approach and glue 4 triangle-shaped pieces together to form the leg stock. The seams end up being on the outside corners.

He didn't mention what KIND of wood but if it is domestic, I agree. :)

[Rob Russell]

George,

To answer your question - if you go in with the more detailed list (8" x 8'), it will make it easier to pick your stock. FAS lumber will be at least 6" wide, so take that into consideration when you lay out your planned cut list and 8' long.

[Michael Pauly]

You definitely should have a cut list in mind so you can pick out boards that will get you the most yield (or if you can't pick out boards, that you get enough to cover the waste). For example if you need 20 bf of all 5" wide pieces, getting 20 bf of all 8" wide boards is going to yield a waste of almost 40% in just the width, then you have to factor in the waste in the other dimension.

[James Hart]

George,

I make a little stick drawing of things I make and I assign a letter to each of the pieces (all four legs can be the same letter, for example.)
Take a sheet of paper and draw out rectangles for each of the pieces you need, with the dimensions of each piece written along the edges of the rectangles.

Take a look at the parts list drawing in a Woodsmith mag project to get a rough idea. The difference is that they lay it out as though you're buying dimensional lumber, which i don't think is what you're about to do.

Moving pretty quickly, I use a piece of white chalk and a tape measure to measure and mark the boards that will work. I then mark the parts on my sheet of paper with a check mark as i go. If one long thick board looks like it will give me all 4 legs, I just write 4XB (or whatever letter I assigned the legs.) on that board.

Then I get about 20% extra to cover mistakes, checks or other imperfections I didn't see, etc. If the wood is more exotic/expensive I might buy a little tighter, but not much.

Jim

You mentioned WW source. Are you in Phoenix? If so, maybe we can work out a shopping trip.

[George Farra]

Guys

Thanks very much for all the quick replies. I'm leaning towards red oak but may change my mind to cherry.

Its good knowing that FAS lumber is a minimum of 6" wide....I now better understand why the supplier did not list anything smaller in thier price list. The supplier is a lumber yard. I'm assuming they have a sawmill somewhere close by but not 100% certain. I'll find out when I get there.

The thicker stock is for legs. I'll do some research on the stickley method of glueing up 4 peices cut at 45's.

Thanks again

George

[David Keller NC]

"OR should I have an exact list of thicknesses, widths and lengths....4/4 8" wide by 8' long, 5/4 6" wide by 8' long, 10/4 5" wide by 4' long, etc"

George, to specifically answer your exact question, the quote above is the way to do it. Just noting that you need 20 b.f. of 4/4 stock won't do it, unless your project is quite small or you don't really care whether you have to glue up stock to make panels.

For the first time you try this, see if the lumber supplier will let you come with a stick of chalk, and then chalk out your pieces on a board. Naturally, you will likely have to buy the board once you draw parts out onto it, but this will ensure that you don't leave the lumber yard with less than you need to do your project, which is often a much bigger problem than leaving with more than you need - it's unlikely you'd go over 50% more than required, and while no one wants to spend more than they need to, it's a rare woodshop that doesn't have a decent stack of off-cuts and a few extra boards laying around.

[Barry Vabeach]

George, this may be obvious, but there are 2 types of places - those that let you pick and choose and those that don't. At one place , which I won't buy hardwood from, they sell mostly to cabinet shops and the rule is if you want 100 bd ft of cherry, you get the 1st 100 feet which is on top. Obviously you need to allow for considerable waste to account for warped, cupped, and knots. Most places I buy from let you go through the lumber and pick out the ones you like, so long as you restack it. Having a list of pieces and where they go, as Jim suggests, makes that go much better. First I try to only select from boards that are mostly straight, no excessive cupping or twist, or warp. From the pieces that pass those tests, I start looking to see what I can use, usually starting from the biggest piece I need and working down the list. I might see a piece that is 8 foot long but has some obvious defects at 3 foot from one end, I will see if I can cut pieces B1 and B2 from the short end and get piece C out of the long end. Or there may be some unattractive parts of one side of a board but the other is clear, then it would probably work as a bottom to a case piece, if it is the right size, but won't work as a side because both sides would be visible. Once I think that I have picked out all I need, I then try to find a few extra boards in clear straight defect free boards, even if they are narrow, with the thought that if all else fails, I can glue up some boards to get my finished sizes. Bring some chalk with you so you can mark the boards once you have decided to buy them.

[Michael O'Sullivan]

The other thing I almost learned the hard way a while back, is that if you give them a bunch of exact dimensions, they will mill the stock down to those dimensions and charge both an arm and a leg for doing so.

[Bob Johnson2]

Don't know about you folks but where I get rough cut, I have to take the widths and lengths that they carry. If I want 10bf of 10/4 and all they have is 6" wide at 12', that's how much 10/4 I'd have to get. I'd probably opt for glue ups as it's rare I can get 10/4 especially in cherry. For a price they cut it to what ever sizes you want but you still end up with the entire board.
I bring a list of rough cut dimensions with me if it's for a smaller project and stand there and figure out what to buy when I see the lumber. I always end up with a good deal more then what it works out to on paper. For larger projects, I just grab boards that meet my needs till I have at least how much I need of each thickness. Nothing wrong with buying too much, it doesn't go bad if stored right.
Keep in mind the longest lengths you need. If you need a 6' length of 8/4 x 2" and the bds are 6" wide, your buying roughly 3 times what you need to get your 6'er.

[David Kreuzberg]

I buy my hardwood from a local sawmill who also kiln-dry the lumber.
I have them straight-line saw it (this is like running the entire board across a jointer), and also plane it (4/4 rough) to 7/8". This saves lots of time and wear and tear on my machines. With the stock at 7/8", I can go directly to glue-up for wider boards, then plane and sand to final thickness.

I've also found that you usually get the best (straight, not cupped or warped) lumber by buying 12' lengths.

kreuzie

[David Keller NC]

"Don't know about you folks but where I get rough cut, I have to take the widths and lengths that they carry. If I want 10bf of 10/4 and all they have is 6" wide at 12', that's how much 10/4 I'd have to get. I'd probably opt for glue ups as it's rare I can get 10/4 especially in cherry. For a price they cut it to what ever sizes you want but you still end up with the entire board."

Bob - Just a thought, but if you want wide, thick cherry, you're pretty close to Irion Lumber in Pennsylvania (relatively speaking). Generally, they have massive and very high quality boards, and it's one of the few places in the country that do. You will pay for it - generally about 20% more than you would for an equivalent board at another place. But, of course, those "other places" generally don't have such boards.

I've bought a lot from Irion, and when quality counts, I highly recommend them.

[Chris Padilla]

David,

Growing up in the West (from CO to CA), nothing is close out here. In New England, everything is close!! hahaha

[Russ Sears]

George, my preferred hardwood supplier has been very helpful to me and more than willing to cut boards to length, joint one side for a (very) nominal fee and so forth.
Even though I haven't specifically come to them with a request to help me select the correct amount of wood for a particular project, I suspect that they would happily do that for me. So....you might try taking along a sketch of your project and seeing how helpful your supplier is.


I should add that I'm strictly a hobbiest/weekender and don't buy much wood. This supplier definitely does not defer to me because of the volume of my purchases!

[Prashun Patel]

I'd break it down by exact widths, lengths and thicknesses. There's software that will consolidate your pieces into the number of 8 ft rough pieces you need (although i usually do this by hand; it's the most fun part for me!!!).

Total board feet is only used once: to figure out how much it'll cost!

[Paul Johnstone]

George,

I'm the type that just tells the supplier I need X board feet of oak or whatever. You usually get a much better price that way (as opposed to buying at a place that lets you pick and chose). You can specify the grade too. So you could get 100 board feet of FAS.

If you plan on making more projects down the road out of oak/cherry, this is the best way to go, providing you have the money up front and room to store the lumber.

Another advantage is that you can pick through your own pile to minimize waste. The disadvantage is that it becomes addicting. My supplier had a special on some leftover 8/4 red oak he had sitting around. I bought it and he asked me if I made anything from the Sassafrass I bought from him about a year ago. I had totally forgotten that I even had that, and to be honest, I have no idea where it is in the "piles" in my basement. :lol:

[Andy Pratt]

George,

I think the right way to approach the sawyer first would be the "by thickness and board feet" method you mentioned. This gives him a rough idea of what you're looking for, and he can tell you if he has it in those thicknesses and where to find it without hearing all the details of the project. Once that is done, maybe while you are walking to the lumber, if there are any odd requirements to your specific lumber you might mention it at this time as well (ex. I was hoping to get the 10/4 perfectly clear, but I'm looking for at least 12" wide by 3' long useable sections).

I like to ask if I can look through it and come get him when I'm done, and make sure to mention that I'll restack it properly before I do. Ideally at this point the guy goes away so I don't feel like I'm under a time pressure to pick out exactly what I need really fast. I'd be wary of making marks on the board until you are sure you will buy it, or have permission.

If for some reason this didn't work and I/he is in a hurry to get it over with, I would probably just buy a little more than I thought I needed unless it was a very expensive wood. Unless the wood is something very particular, you will always, always find something else to use the extra on down the road, and you'll never have to make a second trip to the lumberyard when you're already running late on a project.

Hope this was helpful, I've only been to a few different hardwood suppliers so I'm by no means an expert, but these ways have always worked for me so far.

Andy

[Jim Becker]

David, Irion is indeed a wonderful place. But they do have a 200 bd ft minimum...

[Barry Vabeach]

George, not that you care all that much, but lumber is graded according to certain rules - some of them are here http://www.ahec.org/hardwoods/pdfs/IllustratedGradingGuide.pdf

If you go to that site and look at page 5 and the drawings for No 1 and No 2 common, you can see that the board may be a certain number of board feet, but what is more important to me, is what pieces can I get out of it and the drawing shows pretty clearly that you won't be able to use large portion for anything that shows. BTW, you are normally buying better than Common, I just thought how they drew out the clear sections are helpful and similar to what I do in determining what to buy, though as pointed out above, I don't put any marks on something until after I have paid for it.

[Kevin Godshall]

George, not that you care all that much, but lumber is graded according to certain rules - some of them are here http://www.ahec.org/hardwoods/pdfs/IllustratedGradingGuide.pdf

If you go to that site and look at page 5 and the drawings for No 1 and No 2 common, you can see that the board may be a certain number of board feet, but what is more important to me, is what pieces can I get out of it and the drawing shows pretty clearly that you won't be able to use large portion for anything that shows. BTW, you are normally buying better than Common, I just thought how they drew out the clear sections are helpful and similar to what I do in determining what to buy, though as pointed out above, I don't put any marks on something until after I have paid for it.


That is one excellent, informative, descriptive manual Barry. WTG!! Kudos to you!

[Bob Johnson2]

David, Irion is indeed a wonderful place. But they do have a 200 bd ft minimum...

Small world... I happen to have just finished planing a fishing trip to a state park in Wellsboro Pa. for early June. I will most certianly make a stop at Irion while I'm in town. I see the 200 bd' minimum is for shipped lumber, so it won't apply. Cool, how much better can life get.

Thanks guys.

[David Keller NC]

Bob - Myron and Lou will definitely sell you what you want on-site (no minimum), but I'd call them before you drop by. They're a 2-man (and one woman) operation, so you'd want to make sure they're open before you come.

Also, to others reading this thread, it's my understanding that they lowered their minimum to 150 b.f. a while back, though the website still says 200. Naturally, since the wood will have to go by common carrier (i.e., freight companies), it's in your best interest to order a fair amount, otherwise, you'll pay a much higher percentage of the total in shipping costs.

[Allen Tomaszek]

Good luck on your first trip George. There's a lot of good advice here already but one way to know what's going to work is to call ahead and ask before you make the drive. Hopefully you'll find a supplier that doesn't mind accommodating people. Make sure to report back on how it went.

[Jim Becker]

I see the 200 bd' minimum is for shipped lumber, so it won't apply. Cool, how much better can life get.
.

Ah, good point! And I'm jealous that you'll get to visit the place...one of these days I'll make the trek, but it will consume a whole day 'cause I can't get there via any kind of "straight line". (The helicopter is broken, I'm afraid...)