organizing the WWing wisdom in neanderthal forum

[Zahid Naqvi]

David Keller brought up what I think is a very interesting idea. How about if we can start gathering various threads and posts that pertain to a specific subject matter and create one big sticky at the top which references to all these posts of interest. Bob Smalser has done a lot of tutorials that are excellent resources, as have many others. But considering the enormity of the task I know there is no way I can get this done on my own.

So here's a proposal. Let's use this thread to create a categorization of all subject matter. Once we have hammered down a grouping I will start a second thread and ask members/readers to start suggesting threads and posts that they think are a good contributor for each category and I will start adding them to this one giant sticky.

But let's take the first step for now, please posts you opinions on how to organize this "knowledge base".

Here's the current list which reflects the opinions expressed in this thread.

Work benches

Construction
showcase
Usage

Sharpening

Scary Sharp
Water Stones
Oil stones
Grinding (powered or neander)
Technique
Misc

Technique: Tool usage

Hand planes
Chisel
Saws
Files and rasps
Card scrapers
Vices
Other

Technique: Task

Hand cut dovetails
Mortise and Tenon joints
Flattening boards
Misc

Making your own tools

Saws
Chisels
Hammers
Planes
Spokeshaves
Heat treating steel
Misc

Rehabbing Old Tools

Rust removal
Metallic Planes
Wooden Planes
Saws
Chisels
Spokeshaves
Making new parts
After market/third party parts

Tool reviews

Planes
Chisels
Saws
Spokeshaves

Shop jigs

Shooting boards
Miter boxes
Bench hook
Planing stop
Misc

Tools Storage

Saw Tills
Tools cabinets

Misc tools

Boring/drilling [brace & Bits (Spoon, Forstner, Auger, etc.)]

[Joe Cunningham]

As someone who has learned a lot from a few such threads, I'd suggest:
8) Hand Tool Techniques: you use your hand tools to produce something, and the techniques you use to achieve your results.

Such threads are few and far between, but gold. I'm far less interested in rehabbing old tools (the ones I have work fine) than in the techniques to USE those tools.

Maybe I am not looking in the right place, but books on the subject of WW'ing often incorporate a whole lot of power tools. Biscuit this, mortiser that, table saw the other.

[John Keeton]

With all the workbench articles, I would think perhaps a category for that would be appropriate.

[Hank Knight]

Zahid,

I think each type of tool should have at least three additional subheadings, perhaps more:

1. "General" where topics that do not lend themselves neatly to one of the subcategories could be collected;

2. "Function," "Type" or "Kind" - under which are grouped discussions of the various types of tools within a genre - such as smooth, shoulder, block, jointer dovetail, molding, etc. for planes or mortise, bench, dovetail, firmer carving, etc. for chisels; and

3. "Use" or "Technique" where "how to" posts are catagorized for various tools.

From the number of posts requesting purchase advice, there may be a place for a "What to Buy" or a "Purchasing Advice" subheading.

There should also probably be a general "Sharpening" caption where posts about sharpening media and other topics that are not tool-specific could be collected.

It also occurs to me that many threads or posts could or should be cross referenced under more than one topic.

This sounds like a complicated undertaking.

Hank

[Phillip Pattee]

Under the categories that you already have listed, I agree that tools categories should lead to techniques that the tools are typically used to perform. There are lots of questions about how to flatten panels, removed waste from dovetails, etc. I suggest that we may want more than one path to get to a topic. For example, hand planes could lead to board preparation, jointing operations, and creating dados. A category on Stock preparation could lead to hand planes, shooting boards, and hand saws. A saw category could lead to various types of saws, but it could also lead to dimensioning stock and to cutting dovetails. (I guess I could be going overboard with this:))

We might also want a threads on storage -- there have been lots of posts on saw tills, plane tills, sharpening stations, etc. And finally a thread on sharpening would be useful.

[Bill Keehn]

Let us not forget
9) Boring Tools
Brace & Bits
o Spoon bit
o Forstner bit
o Auger Bit
o Gimlet
o Center bit
o Spade bit

[Phillip Pattee]

Common shop jigs, how to make and use them, such as the shooting board, bench hook, planing stop, pretty much everything Jr. Strasil has built...:)

[Zahid Naqvi]

I think we are already off to a good start. I will keep on modifying the original list in the first post based on the feedback. You guys will have to give me some discretion in terms of picking and choosing topics in the interest of getting this done.

[Berl Mendenhall]

How about a topic on hide glue?

Berl Mendenhall

[Johnny Kleso]

I thinking Sharpening needs to include Grinding even if its by power or at least Crank Grinders...

Also Card Scrapers and Cabinet Scrapers as well as Scraper Planes.. If they where not under the Hand Plane Title....

[David Keller NC]

Zahid - This isn't so much an addition to the categories you've already put up and the good suggestions members have already made, it's a slightly different take on organization that -might- make things simpler (then again, maybe not, I don't have a strong opinion on this).

The idea is that instead of doing the categorization by tool type, you might consider doing the organization by "how" rather than "what". For example:

Making your own tools
- General Techniques
- Heat treating steel
-Saws
-Chisels
-Hammers
-Planes
-Spokeshaves
-Miscellaneous (excluding Benches - that should be a separate category because of the volume of posts)

Rehabbing Old Tools
- Derustification (if it's not a real word, it's very descriptive :D)
- Tuning
- Stanley Planes
- Wooden Planes
- Spokeshaves
- Making new parts (saw handles, chisel handles, new blades, for example)

New (Hand)Tool Reviews

- Planes
- Chisels
- Saws
- Miscellaneous

Techniques

- Woodwork Joints
- Dovetails
- Mortise and Tenon
- Panel and Frame
- Drawboring
- Finishing (not sure this should be in the Neanderthal Forum, but what the hey)
- Boring
- Sawing
- Steam Bending
- Building to a curve

Design (also not sure this should be in the Neanderthal forum, but might give a place to post neander design principles, like the five orders of architechture, the aesthetics that make a piece "Shaker", etc....

I think the Chinese (Japanese?) have a saying - every journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, so everyone might think about building a small database under strict criteria at first - like the presence of photos and start-to-completion sequences, for example, then expand it from there if it becomes useful.

That way, there's some really obviously superb content threads that could be listed (I'm thinking of Bob Smalser's thread on re-habbing bent saws, or Alan and others start-to-finish sequences on building a backsaw, or Harry Strasil's construction of a forge), and should be sort of obvious picks. Following that, one could go on to include shorter-content threads, like single posts of workbench designs.

Might limit the amount of work, and get something very useful put together quickly that could then be built upon.

[Bill Keehn]

As they say, content is king. Let's not get bogged down with how to organize content before we have it.

The nice think about doing it on a forum like this is that you can treat each individual topic like a standalone article and then organize a table of contents in whatever heirarchy(s) that makes sense using links to the threads.

[Bill Keehn]

Dave, I do actually like your approach though.

[Bill Keehn]

As far as organizing neanderthal wisdom, we should consider a bibliography and possibly reviews of books that may be of interest to the neander.

Here are a few from my library:

"Antique Trader TOOLS Price Guide", Clarance Blanchard, 2nd edition.
"Restoring, Tuning & Using Classic Woodworking Tools", Michal Dunbar
"Making & Mastering Wood Planes", David Finck, Revised Edition
"Hand Tool essentials", editors of Popular Woodworking Magazine
"The Woodwright's Apprentice", Roy Underhill
"The Woodwright's Guide - Working Wood with Wedge and Edge", Roy Underhill

[Luke Townsley]

I have actually thought quite a bit along similar lines for my site.

I have come to a few conclusions. What you are proposing is workeable under the right conditions, but messy.

There are lots of things that don't fit into neat categories or that fit into various categories and that are of interest to neanders but not strictly neander and so forth. Lathe turning and finishing are two troublesome categores that come to mind right away.

It could be divided by techniques, tools, periods and in other ways.

To make this work optimally requires a lot of thought, very clear vision and organizational skills as well as a lot of content. To implement this properly, it also requires software that is powerful and someone who has the know-how to make it work.

A bigger question than if it is possible or profitable is if it is PRACTICAL. Frankly, search does a really good job and search engines are improving.

A simple sticky with some suggested search terms might help a lot of newbies get going.

On the other hand, if this is going to be practical, it should probably take a book form. More advanced tagging and navegation would be really nice, but would take some expertise and manpower to get working. Also, it is harder to understand. Everyone here understands books.

An opensource (freely available) book organized similarly to Google Knol would probably work if it had the backing of an active community like this one.

[Leigh Betsch]

You guys are too good. Anyone who wouldn't pay $6/year to learn from this forum is way beyond cheap.
The value of having all this information in one place and easily accessed is worth way more that a Taunton press CD.
I'm just in the learning mode regarding hand tools and hand work, organization like this will assure my contribution for years to come.
Great Idea!!

[James Owen]

Really nice idea!!

Here's a few ideas that have come to mind while reading this thread:

A category or three for

-- Less-commonly used Neander tools like drawknives, gimlets, carving hatchets/axes, adzes, etc.

-- Bench and shop accessories like hold fasts, saw benches, bird's mouth sawing boards, etc.

-- Neander web sites and Neander technique videos (expanding on Bill Keehn's book idea)

[harry strasil]

tool name.
what to use it for
best way to use it
other tools that will do the same thing
when to use it

[harry strasil]

joe cunningham, you only need 2 books to learn neander wwing with no power tools.

The Practical Woodworker and The Complete Woodworker, edited by Bernard E. Jones. Everything you ever wanted to know about neander wwing. they are reprints of early books.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Luke, our intent here is very limited in that we are only trying to link/list content which is already on SMC. I don't want to expand this into linking non-SMC sites, which creates a big headache in terms of keeping links verified. There are plenty of people who do that already.

Search is good in some ways but it spits out a lot of information and you have to sort through them. With a TOC like this you know the threads or posts listed have already been recommended by other members. So it might save some time and effort.

David I like your organization better my self, I have modified the order let me know what you think.

[Wilbur Pan]

I think the Chinese (Japanese?) have a saying - every journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step...

That's a Chinese saying. Lao-Tzu, to be specific.

But to segue, how about including information on Japanese/Asian tools and woodworking techniques?

One other thought: a Wikipedia type setup would be ideal for this.

[Jim Koepke]

I think this is a great idea.

I see one minor problem with photos in some threads that are not hosted on SMC. I have looked at some old threads only to see the photos have disappeared.

I also like the idea of a how to section. This has helped me a lot with a lot of things with posts already on SMC.

Also helpful for people just getting started in hand tooling would be a section on the different makers of tools and what to expect or look for when buying a used or new tool.

I know for myself, things like a type study is useful. I worked on putting one together for my own use before Johnny Kleso put one up at rexmill.

Surely some folks would like to see the same thing for Sargent or Union planes. Also useful would be a reference to who made the off branded planes like the Dunlap or Defiance. Dating lines and other information that could be added and edited might even get us a few more eyes and a few more contributors.

Is it possible to create this is a way to have just the "meat" of a thread and edit out all the follow on post with content mostly saying "hey that is neat" or "have to try that?"

Finally, maybe we could come up with an idea of what it means to be a neander type. My thoughts are it is one who can get the work done with or without power tooling and if they don't have the right tool, we are more than willing to try to make one. Maybe what my thoughts actually describe is more of a renaissance man.

jim

[Johnny Kleso]

i THINK hARRY MIGHT BE ON TO SOMETHING WITH tOOL nAMES..

Opps excuse caps

List of tools and names and I picture of the names of the partsof the tool..Hand Planes is one for sure but Hand Saws you can list all the types and parts of the saws..

I know a lot of tools have names for certian sections of the tool but I cant think of a good example at this time...

Henry Ford's Book "Machine Shop Practices" starts that way naming all the hand tools and parts/handles of the machines..

[Jim Koepke]

I know a lot of tools have names for certian sections of the tool but I cant think of a good example at this time...

LOL! :p

Handle, adjuster...

Head, toe, bed, middle...

jim

[Jim Koepke]

Has anyone mentioned safety?

jim

[David Keller NC]

"That's a Chinese saying. Lao-Tzu, to be specific."

Thanks, Wilbur - I'm the world's worst at remembering sources for quotations.

"Has anyone mentioned safety?"

Not a bad thought, in my opinion. Not nearly as big of a deal as with power tools (it'd be tough to get yourself hurt with a backsaw), but I've seen plenty of nasty and disabling injuries with carving tools, primarily as a result of improper workholding.

"David I like your organization better my self, I have modified the order let me know what you think."

Harry's done a good job of greatly simplifying my suggestion, and while we've some other things on your list that he didn't mention, some of his topics are worthy of inclusion.

One comment for the moderator, Zahid. Might be worth taking one of the categories you've set up, start a thread on it, and see how we do at putting the content together. Then we can step back and look at how that went, and perhaps make changes to the process to make it easier or more coherent.

[Joe Cunningham]

joe cunningham, you only need 2 books to learn neander wwing with no power tools.

The Practical Woodworker and The Complete Woodworker, edited by Bernard E. Jones. Everything you ever wanted to know about neander wwing. they are reprints of early books.

Thanks much Harry.

[Don C Peterson]

I have to comment on this, not that I have much to add, but because this is what I do as a day job and the discussion so perfectly illustrates the problem with trying to organize data in hierarchies.

Taxonomy (classifying things into a hierarchy) is useful and intuitive, but it is also very inflexible.

In order to place things in a hierarchy, one has to make value judgments about which characteristics of a thing are more important (or more defining) than others. The problem is that those value judgments can vary greatly from one individual to another. They also change with the passage of time and change of circumstance.

A strict taxonomy also assumes that a thing (in this case thread) is about ONE thing. I assume that this would not be a strict taxonomy and that a single thread might be referenced under multiple categories? The problem with that approach is that if you are not careful, it quickly grows out of control and returns too much information that isn't relevant.

I'm not trying to say that this wouldn't be useful, but in order for it to be useful, it may require more work than you think.

Sorry to sound like a wet blanket; the database architect in me is showing...I can't help myself...time to stop typing before everyone finds out what a total data geek I am...

[Hank Knight]

Can we create a way to categorize posts when they are first posted? Going back and indexing existing posts will be a huge project. But once it's done, it's done. Then the question becomes how to index new posts going forward. If we could index new posts when they are first created, it would save a lot of work.

Hank

[Jim Koepke]

Out of curiosity a peek was taken back to the beginnings of Neanderthal Haven all the way to February of 2003.

One of the first threads was about flattening the sole on a #5 plane.

Any way, it appears there are some 230 pages of NH. That is a lot of threads to peruse for potential cataloging. Maybe we could each volunteer for small sections.

The even harder part is finding those little tid bits of information that makes things click in ones mind and make the solution to a problem snap into focus.

jim

[Mark Roderick]

The problem you're going to face is that many posts will fall into more than one category.

[Zahid Naqvi]

I don't think we started with the notion to scan through the whole archive of NH and categorizing all the articles. Once we setup the sticky members will contribute article, or parts of articles, that they feel fit under a certain category.
As for "one click" categorizing posts, I think there might be some way to do it, but considering the work schedule of our web admin I know there is no way it can be done within a reasonable time. He's already got a lot of upgrades piled up on his plate.

Don, I agree, I'm a sys admin so I work with DBAs all the time, weird characters I tell ya';) but I think our expectations are not that high. I am sure there will be posts that will fit more than one categories. We'll see how it goes if there is not enough interest it will die its own death, atleast we'll be able to say "we tried".

In the interest of keeping the number of stickies to the minium I think I am going to create just one sticky. The first post will contain the categories and the links under each, while the members will contribute articles and links under the same sticky. This way I will be able to keep everything consolidated under one thread. As well as be able to keep track of incorporated recommendations using the post number as reference.
Perhaps I can get Dave Anderson to lend a hand as well, who has been candidly keeping a low profile :D

[Mark Singer]

For me it really comes down to applying hand tool techniques to furniture making. This requires design, precise full scale drawings , precise layout skills , measuring and marking .Hand shaping using spoke shaves and rasps. Chair making is really mostly a hand tool technique task. For example just dovetailing a drawer is only important as it relates to a piece of furniture.
Lastly the integration of hand tool work to machine work. Most of us have power tools and machines. When and how much of each is really where experience comes in. Hand tools will elevate the quality of a piece but some things are best left to machines

When I got serious about woodworking, I tried to make a different joint for practice in the shop each session. This was a very valuable way to begin.
Each joint required the use of many tools and techniques. This is only a means to an end for a woodworker. Drafting, layout and design are all hand techniques so it is difficult to separate the aspects of hand tools as related to furniture making as a whole. Just the technique of gluing up boards for a top , orienting the grain so it can be hand planed without reversal of grain. The method of aligning these boards by tapping them under the medium pressure of clamps.
It is really furniture making that makes woodworkers .... learning by doing on a given piece where all the techniques come together.
So in a way isolating the subjects may seem to add order to the subject but it is really the integration of all the aspects as it relates to producing something that makes the difference. This is what moves the ball down the field . Otherwise we are just passing it back and forth.
You place your chisel on the bench and reach for your saw in an instant ..... it is intuitive and should be thought of as a process and not individual unrelated events
I found this post spot on!

#2
02-03-2009, 1:36 PM
Joe Cunningham
Member

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Norwich CT
Posts: 167
As someone who has learned a lot from a few such threads, I'd suggest:
8) Hand Tool Techniques: you use your hand tools to produce something, and the techniques you use to achieve your results.

[Chris Schumann]

A forum is a great thing, and SMC is one of the best for many reasons.

But organized research and practical tips and articles is not one of its goals. It sounds to me like you want a Wiki or a Content Management System (CMS) to handle that.

I think it would make another great web site, and I'd be tempted to do it myself if not for the other (software, woodworking, etc.) projects already on my plate.

[Will Blick]

Yes, this is a forum... Q&A... but when you consider the same questions get asked over and over.... it would benefit everyone, to have an organized transfer of much of this repetitive information.... preferably in the categories mentioned previously.... I agree not the level a Taunton book would do it....but the basics of hand tools, and as mentioned, their use, and many bits of wisdom from previous posts .

then when threads come, new useful information can be transferred to this "resource" section. I always found this a shortcoming of many forums. The few forums that did have such, it was such a breeze access yeaars of contributions. The exception might be, a software forum where things change every month, which is not the case here, much of this basic info has remained unchanged for 100+ years...

Great suggestion, I hope someone makes it happen,....and I do agree, this is a great means to increase the % of contributors vs. members...

I also think a resources section to the forum will create the real pros with all the knowledge to contribute more to speciality questions, which is the real value of a forum, vs. teaching so many basic fundamental issues of the field, which a rescource section can do much better.... One forum did nothing more than organize previous into single threads for each topic....and those threads were controlled by the moderator... superb...

Great suggestion, great thread...

[Tom Sontag]

Okay, guess I'll throw some water on this idea. This is tackling a LOT of work which will be outdated every six months or so. Also, as suggested, the devil will be in the details: what about threads that cover several subjects? What about one unrelated comment that answers another question on another subject?

I am not sure how much value this whole idea adds to a simple SEARCH. I'll concede some value just for arguments sake, but I suggest anyone considering volunteering for this (hooray for you): just think about what you could make or what skill you could master if you spent that same amount of time in the shop. There is another similar site that collects occasional threads (edited) as articles, but the organization of so many articles becomes difficult to navigate. The more complete it is, the harder it is to use. This place is fine with the features it has now. You have a noble idea that is more make-work IMO.

[David Keller NC]

All - When I approached Zahid with this idea, I had in mind something a little different than the last few posts on this thread. The point was definitely not to provide a complete, or even partial, index of all the various threads on the Neander section. As others above have noted, that's a ridiculous amount of work, there would be many, many duplications, and many threads on a particular subject only brush a certain topic, with not so much content.

What Zahid has labeled it at the top of the forum topic list was exactly what I had in mind - a FAQ. It'd be absolutely fine, in my opinion, if a good deal of content was left out, and only the "best" threads on a particular subject are included. What I mean by "best" is simply a thread that contains a great number of photographs of work in progress, and an essentially complete narrative on doing a particular task.

What I'd hold up as an example of this is Bob Smalser's posts on re-habbing saws, Alan DuBoff's recent threads on making saws, and even Harry Strasil's posts on constructing a traditional forge.

And regarding the FAQ versus a thread seacrh function, the idea is to apply people's judgement in addition to the search function. One of the things about searches is that they're way too complete, and sort of dumb, generally because they're word matches. If one's interested in rehabbing an old saw, searching for "saw" or even "renovating saws" could result in an overwhelming amount of threads that are only slightly related. If, however, someone goes through a lot of these, picks some relevant ones, perhaps includes a very brief sentence describing what's in them, I'd think this would be an exceptionally useful resource.

One thing to keep in mind is that there is no organization project that doesn't have many flaws that lots of people can point out, but the idea one wants to keep in mind is that the final product, while not without flaws, is considerably better than the initial state - that is, nothing.

[Tom Sontag]

Thanks for explaining. It sounds a lot like an index to 5 star threads.

[Zahid Naqvi]

I hope you all realize that a sticky is still a regular thread. So if you feel like a thread or a post fits under any of the categories listed just post a link under the sticky and as time permits it will get updated. Many questions get asked repeatedly, and at least in that context this FAQs list would be useful. Look at it like a list of your favorite SMC bookmarks.

I have posted a few links to Bob Smalser's articles, let's add some more and see if there is any use for a collection like this. If there is no interest it will die it own death anyway.

[Will Blick]

David, well said....

a reference library is not the goal, but rather a means to cut down on the repetitive threads that surface every few weeks / months, which all fall under your FAQ threads

Once these FAQ threads are set up, I feel the mods should track future threads and cut n paste "parts" of those threads into the FAQ threads, which are only open to the mods. From my experience, it's this service that makes the forums more useful and accommodate the new ww very nicely. I would think, this nice organization system will generate a higher % of paid users, vs. members.

[David Keller NC]

"a reference library is not the goal, but rather a means to cut down on the repetitive threads that surface every few weeks / months, which all fall under your FAQ threads"

Absolutely, but there's one other purpose. Many neanders have posted threads that show an extreme level of expertise, often on subjects that aren't well published, and it'd be a shame to "lose" them because many members just don't know they're there, and don't know to search for them.

Zahid - I'll take a crack at this on the subject of "saws" later tomorrow. We've a very rare 72 degree February day here in Raleigh, and it's an opportunity to do some outside woodworking.

[Luke Townsley]

I am on board with the crowd that thinks we shouldn't much overlap what search already does well.

My opinion is that this would best function as an inspirational piece for complete newbies who have no idea which end is up in the hand tool universe. That could also include experienced hand tool users who are still newbies in certain areas like blacksmithing or making tools.

I think that something more complete COULD be done, but I am not at all sure it is practical with the resources we have available here.

What would really be cool is if someone would write a book (online or in print) from the posts on this forum. Unfortunately, due to copyright issues, it probably will either never happen or be an enormous amount of work. To get around this, one would probably have to read the entire forum, "close the book", and then write his own version using his own thoughts and ideas.