Laguna packages

[Mark Bolton]

I am sure many have seen the euro and american packages from laguna on their 25th anniversary deal. I was wondering what the general concensus was on them? I have been kicking around a few new purchases for the shop and rather than parting it all out this seemed like an interesting option.

With the possibility of 2-3 people being in the shop at a time (at some point) the American option seems nice. Spiral on the planer and jointer, plus gaining a 16" planer over the 10" in the Euro/combo. The only thing I would change would be to up the bandsaw to the LT16HD adding another 1200 bucks.

We really like the sliding table on the combo but I don't think it, and the lathe, offset the individual stations of the American option.

I did some searches on "laguna package" but didnt come up with much on the forum.

Any thoughts? Mark

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mark, I don't own any Laguna machinery, although I looked at it very closely last year when I was purchasing a jointer/planer combo.

I looked at the "American" package and found it wanting for the usual reasons;

- no sliding table on the TS
- mis match in the jointer/planer size
- shaper is high speed, no lower speed in the 4,000 RPM range for larger cutters
- tablesaw doesn't have a scoring blade

The "European" package however has the following good points

- jointer/planer are matched
- sliding tablesaw with scoring blade
- lower spindle speed setting on shaper for larger cutters.

If it was me, the Euro package would win.

I have to admit however that I was surprised at the Laguna Platinum jointer/planer when I looked at it at the show.

It was made in Taiwan if I remember correctly, and the tables swung forwards when the machine was switched to planer mode. I was expecting a European manufactured machine due to the "Platinum" label.

I purchased a Hammer A3 31 instead.

Regards, Rod.

[Mark Bolton]

Rod,
I guess I dont quite follow the "mismatch" on the shaper and jointer.At least for us, being able to thickness plane the widest board possible better suits our work. It would be great to have a wider jointer (12", 16") but thats a luxury for our work and would likely have to wait for an old used machine.

I agree that the sliding TS was something we had really thought would be a good thing in the shop. However it didnt seem to outweigh the ability to have individual work stations for small production work with multiple people. I think the Euro setup would be my choice if I were working alone in the shop. The simplicity of a single power feed and DC run alone make it a real hard thing to not look at.

As far as the shaper speed that too is one that I dont quite get. Looking at most every other shaper out there (PM, Jet, Delta, Grizz) the Laguna is actually on the low end of the spectrum (speed) with regards to a 2 speed shaper. Many are 7/11, 7/10, in that range. At least in the high end consumer models I am not seeing 3 speed or anything even close to 4k RPM.

TS scoring is something that will be way out of my range for a while I would imagine. I have been looking at used SCMI machines a bit and it would be a ways out before we could slate 5k+ for a TS.

I have been kicking around comparisons to similar tools (jet exacta dlx, PM, Uni, not grizz, and the like). Its seems its one of those situations that "right in the middle" on many of them. The discount for the package, and shipped, makes a bit of a difference.

Its never easy,
Mark

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mark, if you are serious about 2 or 3 people in the shop at once, all using equipment, the combo machines will become a bit of a problem. I am a Euro combo fan, but that being said, a combo, by design, limits the ability to simultaniously multifunction. I imagine that you could probably plan for this, and would be thrilled with a combo, but maybe not. Your actual use will dictate which one you pick. Personally, I'm with Rod, go Euro style, but in your case, maybe not. Combos change how you work. Mine made me realize how inefficient I was with the American style shop I had. I am faster now.

I don't own any significant Laguna machinery, so I won't be any help there, but the pictures look good.

[Mark Bolton]

Steve,
Thats what always had me thinking about the Euro setup (for years). We are wondering if we are leaning away from the euro just out of habbit and what we have always known.

I honestly cant say when the breaking point would be for multiple people in the shop. Currently it would be two with there occasionally being 3-4, but that doesnt necessarily mean two major operations running simultaneously either.

Another factor that is playing in here, though very slightly, is that one day we were in hopes to move this space into somewhat of a craft center type operation after hours (eves. and weekends). Our thought was to have various artisans come in an give workshops or classes in the evenings. There is absolutely nothing like this in our community or for 40 miles. I think it would be great for the local community. We thought at some point this may include some light ww'ing classes taught by some local artisans. This would further support the American style shop but as I mentioned this is way in the future. We dont want to make a decision that would negatively affect the shop (earning potential) based on a future "possibility".

There are so many pro's and con's to both options is really pi$$es me off! Heh.

In our current shop we run a lot of trim and milwork (1-2 operations) and are very much in the routine of "circuit" work. Often times one will edge while the other planes. One will joint while the other rips and so on. This is what has me leaning away from the Euro. Additionally we have plenty of space, the shop is 32x50 with DC in separate bay, gallery/retail/office separate as well.

The 16" planer really has a hook in us as we aim to do a lot of wide board work. We had kicked around the idea of the Euro package with the LT16 and planer instead of the lathe (we dont need a lathe). But then would want a spiral jointer. Hehe,.. slippery slope.


Mark

[Jeff Duncan]

I've seen a lot of different packages put out by Laguna though I'm not familiar with the particular package your referencing. I looked at a couple Laguna machines also and ended up buying elsewhere. I can't speak from personal experience but it seems from reading the forums there's a bit of a love hate thing with them. Been quite a few posts I've read where guys had a tough time with follow up on machines that they had problems with. Again no personal experience but if you look around the different forums enough you may find some info.
As for practical advice if your looking for a panel saw Altendorf and Martin are the top dogs. A used one will set you back some cash, but should be a better machine than most other new saws. Shapers run the gammut but really come down to how much work your going to do with them. In a shop with several guys I wouldn't waste money on any consumer grade models. Again a used industrial machine will get you a lot farther.
16" is also on the small side for a multi person shop. An 18" Powermatic would be the smallest I'd want, but then again having a 20" SCM I can't see going any smaller. Same with the jointer, for a shop handling larger pieces a 12" is entry level and 16" is the norm.
For most of the machines I use, I've found older industrial machines superior to the new steel in almost every way.
Gradually I've been replacing all the new ones with old and can only offer advice based on my experience.
good luck,
JeffD

[Jim O'Dell]

I think their Platinum line is their Asian built line to compete with the others on the market. Their new Platinum 10" saw is the same as the Grizzly G0690/691 unit, with a better brand motor (Leeson) and some other small differences. Jim.

[John Shuk]

Hi Mark, I don't own any Laguna machinery, although I looked at it very closely last year when I was purchasing a jointer/planer combo.

I looked at the "American" package and found it wanting for the usual reasons;

- no sliding table on the TS
- mis match in the jointer/planer size
- shaper is high speed, no lower speed in the 4,000 RPM range for larger cutters
- tablesaw doesn't have a scoring blade

The "European" package however has the following good points

- jointer/planer are matched
- sliding tablesaw with scoring blade
- lower spindle speed setting on shaper for larger cutters.

If it was me, the Euro package would win.

I have to admit however that I was surprised at the Laguna Platinum jointer/planer when I looked at it at the show.

It was made in Taiwan if I remember correctly, and the tables swung forwards when the machine was switched to planer mode. I was expecting a European manufactured machine due to the "Platinum" label.

I purchased a Hammer A3 31 instead.

Regards, Rod.

Yeah the Laguna "Platinum" line is their lower cost asian made machines.

[Mark Bolton]

A lot of great information. I am coming away from this with my original gut feeling that this was Laguna's import foray into the consumer market. Other than the planer and the LT16HD I felt like the other components may have been a hair short. That said I still feel like its only a hair and could easily be offset by the 14% discount and the cost being shipped.

I guess for us part of the advantage was that we simply dont have the time to shop around for months for quality old equipment. For instance, we have been watching for 2 months within a 100 mile radius for a cabinet saw and have found nothing we feel reasonable. Seems most used, yet almost new, is selling for very little below retail, and most old equipment through broker/buyers is selling for super top dollar. Several brokers have made mention that old iron is so high because much of it is being bought by companies outside the US (read China). We have looked at several old PM66's, 3ph, for 1.6K and up (way up). Also looked at several other saws in the 2k-5k range. While I know they may be worth it we are just not in a position to buy a 2k-5k saw that needs work and a phase converter.

I guess for the he** of it I will stack up the pricing for comparable tools from the best locations including shipping. Will be a good exercise.

May be a set of purchases that is better to wait on.

Thanks for all your input,
Mark

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod,
I guess I dont quite follow the "mismatch" on the shaper and jointer.At least for us, being able to thickness plane the widest board possible better suits our work. It would be great to have a wider jointer (12", 16") but thats a luxury for our work and would likely have to wait for an old used machine.

Hi Mark, my reference was to the fact that with an 8" jointer, that's the widest board you can joint. I previously had an 8" jointer/14" planer and I had to rip stuff to width to joint, while I could plane a much larger board. Now I can joint a board as wide as my planer.


As far as the shaper speed that too is one that I dont quite get. Looking at most every other shaper out there (PM, Jet, Delta, Grizz) the Laguna is actually on the low end of the spectrum (speed) with regards to a 2 speed shaper. Many are 7/11, 7/10, in that range. At least in the high end consumer models I am not seeing 3 speed or anything even close to 4k RPM.

When you get into larger cutters, the low end shapers spindle speed is too high. The Euro shaper has a lower spindle speed so you can use the larger cutters. It also probably has a hood and fence opening that will take larger cutters.

The smaller Taiwanese shapers don't have the spindle, bearings, hood or fence, or speed range of the Euro's. This prevents you from running the larger, more optimized cutters such as tenon cutters. This means you miss out on a lot of the capabilities of a shaper.



Its never easy,
Mark

Mark, please see my comments in red......Rod.