Are non-mortise hinges for cowards?

[Dean Karavite]

I'm building a built in China cabinet and am considering non-mortise hinges. My frames have some beaded molding on the inside edge and to tell you the truth I am a little afraid of getting things lined up nice. Woodcraft has quite a few including one from Amerock that states it will provide a 1/16th gap and has adjustments.

Give it to me straight. Am I wimping out? :-)
If not, will these appear any different from the outside?

Here it is: http://www.woodcraft.com/product.aspx?ProductID=124232&FamilyID=987

http://www.woodcraft.com/images/products/124232_230.jpg

[glenn bradley]

I've used them on decorative wall cabinets. There are some versions with very nice finals and no, I don't think they are whimpy but, they do have to "fit" with the rest of the piece.

[Joe Cowan]

I just finished a cherry cabinet system for my walk in closet. I used the NM hinges throughout and was very pleased. I used with a 3/4" face frame and 3/4" raised panel door and they make it easy to line up and install with the wrap around feature. Once the doors are closed they look like regular hinges.

[Dean Karavite]

Thanks to both of you! I think they will fit the piece - I have 3/4 face frames and 3/4 glass panel doors (old ones with 6 actual panes each!).

Oh and moderator, I'm sorry for posting in the wrong forum!

[David DeCristoforo]

"Give it to me straight. Am I wimping out...?"

Well I guess I'm the only one here who's gonna give it to ya straight. Yes. You are wimping out! Those hinges are intended for "slam style" cabinets where the only thing that matters is how fast you can crank out the job. Get some nice brass butts and do it right.

(The forgoing is the opinion of the poster only and in no way reflects the views of the forum membership in general or of any other individual members. BTW... you asked for it!)

[Peter Quinn]

I agree with Mr. D, the NM hinges are definitely wimping out, get over it and mortise those freakin hinges already! Work through the fear. If I can do it, so can you! At least buy one set of cheap butt hinges and practice on a piece of scrap to see how easy it is. Frankly on inset beaded frames those NM hinges are at least as much of a PIA to instal as a traditional hinge, they just seem easier to the uninitiated.

If you can build a china cabinet to begin with, and clearly you can, than mortising the hinges will NOT be the hardest part by any stretch. Oh, with careful router adjustment, a few paper shims, a cheap shop made template from 1/2" MDF and a hinge mortising bit, and perhaps a sharp chisel to square the corners, true mortised hinges are also ADJUSTABLE, and a heck of a lot stronger too on a heavy divided lite door.

[Dean Karavite]

Okay, I got it! I will not cower from this task. I am making face frames, made the beaded molding, making drawers and doors... so what is my problem?

Thanks for being honest. Some times you need people to tell you what is hard to hear! :-)

[Dean Karavite]

P.S. For some reason after reading your replies, I had these pictures in my head:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Qm43L_46eLM/RwvwUnsMWXI/AAAAAAAAEbk/zpNJH8iZmFY/s320/hans_franz.jpg

http://www.mcnews.info/mcnewsinfo/marines/2006/20061ST/divisions/images/portrait1a.jpg

[Jim Kountz]

Like everything there is a time and a place for NM hinges. It depends entirely on the project and its intended use. For me I was building a set of cabinets for my shop and I used them for the doors. I didnt need to impress anyone, I wasnt worried about what people 100 years from now would think. I just needed functional doors and didnt want to spend a lot of time on them.
For a commissioned piece or something like that then yes, NM would be in my opinion whimping out!!
For anyone to say NEVER USE THEM OR YOU"RE A WHIMP?? Thats ridiculous.

[Dan Hahr]

I spent days trying to find a hinge that would work on a mission style china cabinet I was making. I wanted copper colored butt hinges with a ball finial. Those that I did find cost more than the pulls. At the cost of spending over 150 dollars, I went with the NM type that looked just fine. Same brand, but a slightly different style.

If you were making an actual reproduction and spending 30 bucks a pull, you might spend the 10 bucks each on the hinges. I needed 15 hinges and 9 pulls for mine and still spent almost 200 bucks on hardware.

I'd say if you can afford it, buy the nice ones. I wish I could have. Could I even remember what kind of hinges I used? No, had to go look....

Dan

[Charles Robertson]

As per David and Peter. If you don't start now, when will you start. Sounds like you have the ability, you just need to take a step to expand it. We all do. Check out Horton Brass for your hinges. Great quality. Make good router templates and go for it on some scrap till you are comfortable. Then jump off that cliff. Might find out it was only a little bump in the road. Good luck, Charles

[John Keeton]

Like everything there is a time and a place for NM hinges. It depends entirely on the project and its intended use. ...For anyone to say NEVER USE THEM OR YOU"RE A WHIMP?? Thats ridiculous.
I'm glad Jim "came out of the hinged cabinet" and spoke up for those of us that have used NM hinges, but may not want to publicly talk about it. Now, I will not feel shame in public:o and can walk through the BORG with my head held high.

I do agree that when one puts time and effort in a nice piece, it is not the place for them. Shop cabinets NEED and DESERVE NM hinges!!

Horton has nice stuff - pricey, but nice!

Dean, you have faced your demons - now for the conquest!

[Dean Karavite]

John, we can get through this together! The time for shame is past.

When I am finished with this thing I will post pics. Maybe I shouldn't call it a "China cabinet." We had an original built in floor to ceiling cabinet in the kitchen that I removed for a laundry room. It was all pine (nice pine about 100 years old), but the thing was attached to the studs and plastered in when they built the house. No easy way to remove it and save it (though I saved a lot of the wood for other projects). However, I saved the glass doors and some of the hardware (of course the hinges were mortised). I decided a good project would be to rebuild it in the dining room, but the only thing from the original are the glass doors. Though the outside will be painted, I added a touch - the inside back, shelves and the counter are walnut. (ply with solid walnut edging I beaded for the shelves and solid walnut for the counter).

When ripping out the original I found an old business card for a carpenter. I'm sure this guy put it in in 1920 when the house was being built. I was thinking I'd like to put it back behind mine when it is done along with my business card. Now that I think about it, NM hinges would not do his memory justice. Also, I like to think how this guy probably did this thing in two days while it is taking me... well, longer.

[Chip Lindley]

If you are building an heirloom quality piece which may be handed down in your family, don't include ANYTHING Amerock on it. Go *Whole Hog* with solid brass and learn to mortise! Practice makes perfect, and it's NOT as hard as you imagine. Just one more step in learning the fine points of woodworking! Good Luck!

[Matthew Voss]

P.S. For some reason after reading your replies, I had these pictures in my head:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Qm43L_46eLM/RwvwUnsMWXI/AAAAAAAAEbk/zpNJH8iZmFY/s320/hans_franz.jpg



"Look at the little girrrlllyyy man..."

Awesome...

[David DeCristoforo]

...the OP was not asking about "shop" cabinets. Who gives a rat's a$$ what you use for your shop cabinets?! All of the defense of NM hinges I have read here include this caveat. But all seem to be in agreement that for "fine" work NM hinges are not appropriate.

[John Keeton]

...the OP was not asking about "shop" cabinets.
As usual, David, you are totally correct on this one - and you and Peter followed the tough love approach.

"Give it to me straight. Am I wimping out...?" Well I guess I'm the only one here who's gonna give it to ya straight. Yes. You are wimping out!
But, we were all just trying to soften the blow and help Dean wipe up the snot and blood and walk away with some bit of integrity;)

[David Keller NC]

"I'm building a built in China cabinet and am considering non-mortise hinges."

I think my opinion might line up with other Creekers, but it depends greatly on the style of "china cabinet" you're making. Generally, no-mortise hinges say "kitchen cabinets" not "fine furniture", and they'd be horribly out of place on a queen-anne, chippendale, or even Krenov-style cupboard.

However, if this is your first piece, you've spent a great deal of time on it, and it looks pretty nice, use the no-mortise hinges. The piece will be functional, no one but a woodworker will notice the hinges, and they'll be screaming at you every time you walk by the piece for the next 20 years "Wimp!".

Every single one of us has this experience when looking at something we made early on and thinking "boy, did I not know what I was doing", and every relative that overhears that comment says "What are you talking about - I love it!"

[Brian Peters]

I second the full mortise. Those wrap around hinges or non motise hinges are usually cheap stamped steel that's painted, rarely brass. I prefer solid brass full mortise. No reason to spend hours on a beautiful piece only to avoid a few minutes of mortising. Easily done with a trim router, bushing 1/4 cutter and make a simple jig. Square the corners with a chisel. Once you setup one perfect the rest are cake IMO.

[Jim Kountz]

...the OP was not asking about "shop" cabinets. Who gives a rat's a$$ what you use for your shop cabinets?! All of the defense of NM hinges I have read here include this caveat. But all seem to be in agreement that for "fine" work NM hinges are not appropriate.

David, is there a particular reason why have to go on such an offensive all the time? I read your posts and it seems if someone doesnt agree with you, you get all defensive and try to belittle the person with your derogatory comments. Its not necessary at all David its really not. Myself and the others were just commenting which we can do if we want to and shouldnt have to worry about someone like you coming back, all but swearing at us for what we said, in fact you did swear at us and it was done in a nasty way thats just uncalled for. You dont have to do anything but I for one would greatly appreciate it if you could please try to refrain from this behavior. There are ways to say what you want to say without being a jerk about it.

Sorry if I have offended anyone but enough is enough. No ONE person is the last definitive word in woodworking, and for anyone who thinks they are, you are a fool.

[David DeCristoforo]

"But, we were all just trying to soften the blow and help Dean wipe up the snot and blood and walk away with some bit of integrity"

Ahh.... mercy. I've heard of that. But sometimes to most merciful approach is to put 'em out of their misery quickly. Besides I would never have used the term "wimping out" if the OP hadn't used it first. The fact that he did use it gave me the impression that he knew the answer before he even asked the question so I was really just telling him what he wanted to hear anyway...

[Peter Quinn]

Wow, this topic is getting a bit hot. Just for the record, I have used NM hinges, they look fine from the outside, most non woodworkers don't notice them even with the door open, and some are of decent quality relative to their finish and build. My comments were specific to the OP's question about a china cabinet for his home and based on the impression that he had not installed mortised hinges previously. If you find yourself hanging glass doors of any weight on NM hinges, check the weight rating before proceeding. You might be getting into trouble. That little mortise goes a long way towards keeping the screws from rotating over time.

If your choice of NM hinges is for cost, time, aesthetics or personal preference, great, its your own choice, who am I to judge. But if your hesitation is fear, I encourage you to try it, learn it, and grow. Try it on scraps or mock up a door with one REALLY wide stile that you can rip off for multiple attempts if necessary, though it probably wont be. If you learn more from your failures than your successes, what exactly do you learn from avoiding something altogether? Nothing I'd guess. I figure I learned it, and I'm not the sharpest tool in any box. Anyone know anyone really good at mortised hinges that just 'prefers' NM hinges in general?

And I for one like Mr. D's straight shooting and appreciate the richness his vast experience brings to this group. I say keep um coming and lighten up folks. Its only wood.

[Jim Kountz]

Wow, this topic is getting a bit hot. Just for the record, I have used NM hinges, they look fine from the outside, most non woodworkers don't notice them even with the door open, and some are of decent quality relative to their finish and build. My comments were specific to the OP's question about a china cabinet for his home and based on the impression that he had not installed mortised hinges previously. If you find yourself hanging glass doors of any weight on NM hinges, check the weight rating before proceeding. You might be getting into trouble. That little mortise goes a long way towards keeping the screws from rotating over time.

If your choice of NM hinges is for cost, time, aesthetics or personal preference, great, its your own choice, who am I to judge. But if your hesitation is fear, I encourage you to try it, learn it, and grow. Try it on scraps or mock up a door with one REALLY wide stile that you can rip off for multiple attempts if necessary, though it probably wont be. If you learn more from your failures than your successes, what exactly do you learn from avoiding something altogether? Nothing I'd guess. I figure I learned it, and I'm not the sharpest tool in any box. Anyone know anyone really good at mortised hinges that just 'prefers' NM hinges in general?

And I for one like Mr. D's straight shooting and appreciate the richness his vast experience brings to this group. I say keep um coming and lighten up folks. Its only wood.

I agree Peter, and the only reason I even mentioned shop cabinets was it was the most recent thing I had used them on and it was fresh in my head. It was more of a reference than a suggestion I guess.
You make good valid points and I dont have a problem with straight shooting but to come on here cussing at people and stuff is just not cool in my opinion. You can say the exact same thing without all that wouldnt you agree with that too?

[David DeCristoforo]

"...but to come on here cussing at people and stuff is just not cool..."

Where did you read any "cussing"? I don't see any cussing. But as long as you are going to make an issue out of what is or is not cool, putting words in people's mouths and "shouting" is not cool either. I refer to this quote:

For anyone to say NEVER USE THEM OR YOU"RE A WHIMP?? Thats ridiculous.

I don't see any such statement in any of the replies. I would suggest that most of what you are getting riled up about was said "tongue in cheek". Maybe more "emoticons" should be employed.....

[Jim Kountz]

"...but to come on here cussing at people and stuff is just not cool..."

Where did you read any "cussing"? I don't see any cussing. But as long as you are going to make an issue out of what is or is not cool, putting words in people's mouths and "shouting" is not cool either. I refer to this quote:

For anyone to say NEVER USE THEM OR YOU"RE A WHIMP?? Thats ridiculous.

I don't see any such statement in any of the replies. I would suggest that most of what you are getting riled up about was said "tongue in cheek". Maybe more "emoticons" should be employed.....

David, hello, this is a quote from your post:
Who gives a rat's a$$ what you use for your shop cabinets?!

Whats all that about David? I was just making a comment that I recently used the NM hinge. Thats all, I didnt say that because I used them the OP should too, I just said "hey Ive used them". It surely didnt merit you saying what you said. I didnt put words in anyones mouth either. I said if anyone were to say that, then thats ridiculous. Read the post again. No quotation marks, just caps.
;);):D:D:p:p:cool::cool:

[Dean Karavite]

Come on guys, email and the web make it very hard to really understand a person'r mood, "tone"... We are all here for woodworking and share some information.

Maybe you will get a kick out of this. My wife how knows nothing about woodworking thought I was wimping out too! She want's mortised hinges and will settle for nothing less. Uh oh, I think that is her pulling up. I better run and wash those dishes! :-)

Seriously, I wasn't wimping out as much as being lazy. Truth is I want this done so I can get on to my next project - a bench!

[David DeCristoforo]

"David, hello, this is a quote from your post:
Who gives a rat's a$$ what you use for your shop cabinets?"

That hardly qualifies as "cussing". But in any case, that was not directed at you. It was intended as a general statement, the point being that for shop cabinets it would not matter nearly as much what you (anyone, not you specifically) used. What's up with it is that these are cheapo hinges that have no place in fine work. Of course I could qualify that by saying that that was only my own personal opinion but if you re-read my first reply to the OP you will notice that I did.

So... having said that, let me apologize to you for anything I said that may have offended you. It was not my intention to offend anyone. Like I said before, most of what you are taking offense at was said "tongue in cheek" although my opinion remains my opinion. If you don't think that is a sufficiently humble apology, we can step outside.... (OK, OK... heres a "winky face" so you will know I am kidding...;)

[Jim Kountz]

David, apology accepted, I extend an olive branch. To the OP sorry for hijacking your thread, now I just feel silly.
David if we ever did step outside you would have to give me a minute with my bum knee I could be a while hobbling out there!! LOL

[David DeCristoforo]

"David, apology accepted..."

Well that's good because while I can put up a heck of a good argument, I'm a really crappy fighter... but don't tell anyone, OK?

[John Keeton]

Now I can sleep tonite - thanks guys!

[Charles Robertson]

Wow, what a ride. Please, don't anybody change. It's the individuality that makes this journey worth while. Besides, it's too cold to step outside. Glad I was part of this one--although a wimpy part. Dean, you better start mortising, its much easier than you think. Al

[Dean Karavite]

On a related subject, can anyone recommend a good sourse for hinges and other hardware? I was a little surprised at the limited selection at Woodcraft and Rockler. I have some neat 90 year old latches that are brass, but "antiqued" and I would like hinges and pulls that match. Lee Valley seemed to have the broadest selection I could find. I'm in Philly, but if someone has a other online sources that would be great, but I'm going to guess colors and shades of brass on a website are going to be tough to match. Thanks in advance.

P.S. Like this, but is $22 or so a pair a crazy price or what I should expect?
http://houseofantiquehardware.com/s.nl/it.A/id.15126/.f?sc=11&category=106

[David DeCristoforo]

Three of my favorite sources:

http://www.vandykes.com/

http://www.horton-brasses.com/

http://houseofantiquehardware.com/

[Dean Karavite]

Thanks David, Horton's is absolutely perfect for what I am looking for.

[Jeff Wright]

Like you, I was hesitant to use the mortise butt hinges in my inset door work. But liking that look so much more than Euro hinges or other variations, I made the commitment to use high quality butt hinges. I haven't regretted it one bit. I strongly recommend spending the money on good quality extruded hinges. I make my doors to be the same size as the opening, and then trim the door as needed. I especially like using a shooting board and hand plane to make the final fit rather than my power equipment. Much more control and finer fit.

[Neal Clayton]

i get mine from house of antique hardware too. their hinges are fine, kinda hit and miss on mortise door locks, but that's another matter...

it's actually pretty easy to 'cheat' on mortised hinges and get them perfect without jigs or minimal effort. mark out your mortise with a pencil, hog out most of it with a router freehand, and chisel the edges. no one will ever know you aren't better with a chisel than bruce lee was with kung fu.

that said the door hinge jigs do make large door hinges alot easier ;).