Saw Stop cabinet saw tender subject I know

[Tony Scolaro]

Howdy Folks. I wanted to ask some question about the tender subject of the SawStop cabinet saw. Especially of those who use it professionally and have owned a Saw Stop for awhile. I do want to buy one for the safety aspects. I really need the real dope on this saw.
First a comment: Let me share my thoughts on the tool and the company policy. I don’t like the fact that they don’t have service center lined up. To me the warrantee has half the coverage/value that is stated because I have to do the repair. I know this is the same situation we face with the "fake" blue Oliver we have today (I own a wide belt of theirs) or the white Mini Max. That fact that I have to fix there defects. Doesn’t sound right to me and at 4 grand. I say it is your defect send out a service tec. One other thing. Although some say they have had good customer service with them. The company has a love it or leave tone, their way or the high way and they are very specific about their way. Yes, I know the knee jerk answer back is well if you don’t like it don’t buy it. That is not the route I want to go down with the statement. I just being straight with the statement and just want to gain as much insight as I can. Not ruffle feathers. Thanks.

I have read the many, many, great post on the Saw Stop in this forum. I have talked to their tec. dept. and the local seller of the machine. I have agreed with those who put a value on keeping digits. I also agree with those who say it is no excuse for good habits. I have good habits. I also agree that a riving knife is important integrated part of the safety equation. I also agree with the fact that it is well made in its particular by today’s saws. I am basically an old American Tool guy and yes high quality Euro goodies. I have a lot of blue green tools from Germany. I saw the Saw Stop when I was buying a Kapex and fiddled with the Saw Stop and said wow, I am surprised this shiny thing is nice, interesting. Now, basically, I want one.

I just sold a beautiful Oliver 232 and I have lined up the sale of my Powermatic 66 to a friend when and if I pull the trigger. I am a lowly wood worker and I just can’t afford to make a purchasing mistake.

I wonder if anyone has real insight into Saw Stops sustainablity as a going concern these days. I would not want to have an expensive orphan in my shop?

Also they are pushing their 3hp if single phase as the better motor to go with than the 5hp? I have heard it three times from two different sources, including tec. dept. Explanation that you are pushing it with a single phase 5hp. I don’t think Baldor, Lesson, or Marathon feel that way. The Oliver 24" wide belt is a 10hp single phase. Any insight into their thinking? I know about proper wire size and breaker.

What is the overall evaluation of false triggering of brake? Has it improved much over the years?

Also I live in the country and power blips are a way of life, especially during winter months. Will these surges set off the brake system?

I ask these question in all seriousness and humility. I want to buy it. Please "talk me down". Thanks and let me say you folks are the greatest. Thank you in advance Tony

[Joe Jensen]

I'm not a commercial user, but I've owned a 5HP Sawstop for almost 3 years. I too worried about the ability of SawStop to survive as a company for the long haul. In the end here were my thoughts.
1) The saw could still be used without the safety brake in the event that the company failed and brake cartridges were not available, or the electronics failed. I would have to rewire it like a traditional saw, maybe buy my own mag starter, but it could be done.
2) I bought a 5HP because years ago was making some tapered raised panels and I really bogged down the 3HP PM66. I didn't want to worry later about not having enough HP. It was only $200 more so I got the 5HP. Having bought the 5HP, if I were doing it again I would only do the 3HP. Here is why.
- I had to rewire the outlet for my sawstop to get a 30amp line.
- The 5HP motor looks really small for 5HP. It is in a very small case, and I wonder how well it will dump heat if pushed hard for several hours straight. To be clear, I haven't had any issues, but wow, the motor is small. Smaller than the 3HP Baldor in my 1990 PM66. Also, I'm not sure I could fit a 5HP Baldor inside the base where the motor mounts.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Joe, who makes that motor?

[Ken Werner]

Great question Tony, I'm in the same spot you are - I want the SS, but just don't know enough to feel comfortable with the amount I'll have to pay. Looking forward to more answers from users. Thanks.

[Joe Jensen]

Joe, who makes that motor?

It's labled SawStop, so it's a private lable motor. It's made in Taiwan. Measures 6.5" DIA and about 12" long with the fan, the real motor case is maybe 11" long. Rated at 19.7A. Seems like a lot of motor in a small package.

[Simon Dupay]

I'm not a commercial user, but I've owned a 5HP Sawstop for almost 3 years. I too worried about the ability of SawStop to survive as a company for the long haul. In the end here were my thoughts.
1) The saw could still be used without the safety brake in the event that the company failed and brake cartridges were not available, or the electronics failed. I would have to rewire it like a traditional saw, maybe buy my own mag starter, but it could be done.
2) I bought a 5HP because years ago was making some tapered raised panels and I really bogged down the 3HP PM66. I didn't want to worry later about not having enough HP. It was only $200 more so I got the 5HP. Having bought the 5HP, if I were doing it again I would only do the 3HP. Here is why.
- I had to require the outlet for my sawstop to get a 30am line.
- The 5HP motor looks really small for 5HP. It is in a very small case, and I wonder how well it will dump heat if pushed hard for several hours straight. To be clear, I haven't had any issues, but wow, the motor is small. Smaller than the 3HP Baldor in my 1990 PM66. Also, I'm not sure I could fit a 5HP Baldor inside the base where the motor mounts.
I feel the same way about the 7.5hp motor in the SS at work it's smaller then the 5hp marathon on the unisaw.

[Per Swenson]

Saw stop in the pro shop.
We were early adopters. In retrospect I wouldn't have it any other way.
We also have the 3 hp model and its never failed to suit up and earn its keep.
One power failure during operation and the brake did not trip.
If you do this for a living and or have employees or family running the machine also...... there is no excuse.

Per

[Kevin Groenke]

Hey Tony,

You've probably seen my posts, but for some background: We've had 2 of the first 50 SS's shipped in a collegiate student shop since 12/04. The saws have not been without issue, but I've never regretted the purchase. If I had expected the saws to be perfect, I may have been disappointed. I've spent over $200,000 on equipment in the past 8 years and I can't think of a single unit that hasn't had any issues or has been absolutely satisfactory.

It seems to me you may be setting yourself up for disappointment here Tony: If you pull the trigger, it seems you may have buyers remorse if ANYTHING goes wrong with the machine.

The absence of service centers has never been a concern for me. I basically expect that we'll be servicing all of the tools in the shop and I think it's important to have a working knowledge of machine design and the technical aptitude to troubleshoot/repair/rebuild equipment. I'm too cheap to pay for a service call and it's not like I'm going to disassemble a tablesaw w/extension, outfeed and sliding tables to take it in to have a motor replaced or a switch fixed. Perhaps some higher end equipment has on site service agreements, but that doesn't apply to anything except the digital equipment in our shop.

SS's tech support has been phenomenal, they've talked me through a number processes and have even sent video of the swap of the elevation helical gears. We've been out of warranty for years and we still haven't paid for any of the repair parts they've sent us. We got a control station a couple months ago, we didn't pay for it, but SS's list price for it is $120, I'd guess Delta would charge AT LEAST $300 for a similar part, so it's good to know that SS isn't killing it's customers with parts sales.

I wouldn't characterize SS as having rigid protocols. Sure, they don't want people overiding the proximity detection mechanism in order to run a moulding head and advise against reusing blades after they've been stopped, but I haven't heard of any advice they've given that sounds unreasonable. I've spoken with them more than a dozen times, and I've never felt they were dictating specific use or procedures.

SS's long term business viability is anything but certain, but I don't think I'd be any more surprised if Delta went belly up than if SS does. Regardless, I'm pretty confident that there are enough SS's out there that parts will be available even if the company itself doesn't make it. If I found out that the future was questionable, I might stock up on cartridges and buy an extra control station, those are really the only unique parts that are likely to need replacement. If the brakes become unavailable, it's a 30 minute job to rewire the saw to operate conventionally.

We haven't had an unexplained trigger in years: of 15+ triggers we've had, only 2 had an unclear cause, I think I didn't get the whole story on those incidents since I wasn't in the shop when either occurred.

Our saws are 5HP, 1PH, both motors were replaced under warranty due to stationary switch failure. I repaired the failed switches, so I actually have 2 back-up motors. I haven't run a 3hp, so I don't know how it compares, generally 3hp is plenty of motor in a TS if you use decent tooling in good condition. I got the 5hp simply because they were only $100 more. I do think the 5 hp rating may be a bit generous.

We have pretty stable power and I think even a line conditioner, so I can't directly speak to that question, but I only recall one discussion of power irregularities causing problems. I seem to remember one particular user that blamed their wrist watch for some issues though I don't recall exactly how that come out. If your power situation is particularly unusual, you might ask SS about any likely problems.

That's about all I've got to offer, ask questions if you've got 'em.

g'luck
-kg

[Doug Miller 303]

When I was working in Idaho, I had the opportunity to visit a door factory. They were using a Saw Stop, so I asked about it. They said that it has already lowered their insurance rates and saved two fingers in a years time.

The cost of the brake is cheaper than paying for a new finger.

Doug

[Mark Singer]

Go saw so far!

[James Phillips]

It's labled SawStop, so it's a private lable motor. It's made in Taiwan. Measures 6.5" DIA and about 12" long with the fan, the real motor case is maybe 11" long. Rated at 19.7A. Seems like a lot of motor in a small package.

They have a physically bigger motor now. Mine originally had the motor you reference, but it had to be replaced and the new on is much larger. They have changed motor suppliers

[Tony Scolaro]

Thanks for the input so far. So Where am I at. To my way of thinking maximum safety in a table saw the SS. Looks pretty no doubt, I like shinny things too. Heavy yes. Smooth motor elevation, yes. Large table, sweet.
Two things probably not resolved in my mind is 1 easy scratching cast 2 the motor . Both indicative of quality. The cast, first I believe the General Canada built still use meehite process in casting tops. 2 more importantly, The motor small for hp rating means something. Also it is a proprietary motor mount in the way that the Unisaw is. You can probably weld up a mount to a Baldor Lesson or Marathon but who needs that. I am on my way to buying a SS. But I am really having problem with that foreign motor and I still think (so far) that something is fishy with the 5hp. In light of how the sellers say it is good but the 3hp is Stella or whatever superlative they use. Please, I am not being testy or insensitive, I am just nervous. The dilemma: The safety of the SS verse the quality of a North American built saw. Money aside, I save and spend on high quality tools Kapex, Domino, Lamello B jointer as par for the course. It is how I struggle to make a living building solid wood furniture. I am selling off two saws to buy one. I can't have it go down when I am obligated to others.
If it wasn't for the added safety brake, quite frankly, it would be General 650 Canadian made 3 or 5hp Baldor motor with riving knife. But alas, no brake on it. I want to buy the Saw Stop for safety but the Motor troubles me. Is anyone out there really pushing lumber through it. I mean a production or semi-production runs? Heating that thing up a bit. I wonder how it is rated? Continuous 40 degree?

Just trying to get past obstacle. My better judgement and the motor is a big one.

Again thanks for the input.

Tony

[Ken Werner]

So it sounds like nobody out there who has purchased or used one is sorry he did so?

[John Ricci]

Tony, I hear your concerns and I have to throw in my .02Cdn. I did buy the General 650R after looking at everything including the Sawstop and money was not the issue in my case. The General is a top grade saw with a Meehanite top, Baldor motor, riving knife and made right here in the frozen north. The fact that I am a Canadian admittedly was a factor in my decision but I am still not convinced on the SS given the relatively short history of production. I have read about all of the misfires owners have experienced and the support issues some have stated (fix it yourself). As I stated in another SS post, I'm still of the opinion that no saw technology replaces common sense and caution in woodworking and one day there will be a SS accident where the brake does not fire resulting in an injury which casts doubt on the concept.

My $$$ stayed in Canada and bought me what I felt was the best cabinet saw on the market today. The General has so far met and exceeded all of my expectations (despite a couple of minor issues due to owning one of the first saws shipped) so I couldn't recommend a better purchase for a lifetime or two of use. Of course, just my own opinion.

J.R.

[Bill Keehn]

Tony,

I'm pretty sure you aren't going to have an orphan in a few years.

Sawstop has one of the most popular and best made saws on the market and by far the safest. They are already the #1 selling saw and continue to gain market share even while charging much a higher price. Unlike some companies that have one or two good products and 10 average or crummy ones, they have one great product (ok, two if you look at the contractor saw). Warranty issues are minimal. The trade press loves them.

Sustainable as a going concern? Seriously? What more could you ask for? I don't know how they could possibly fail as a company unless they do something really dumb, like selling out to Sears or something.

The Sears Craftsman Sawstop... there is an idea that makes me cringe. :eek:

In five years you'll probably be wondering what to do about your american made car, but I doubt you'll regret buying a Sawstop.

[Greg Pavlov]

...... As I stated in another SS post, I'm still of the opinion that no saw technology replaces common sense and caution in woodworking .........

Sure, and disk brakes and seat belts don't replace common sense and caution in driving....


......and one day there will be a SS accident where the brake does not fire resulting in an injury which casts doubt on the concept.J.R.

I'm sure that one failure to fire will cause some people to doubt the *company* (I have a hard time imagining that anyone at this point doesn't believe that the concept works), but I am pretty sure that there won't be too many. Overall, this company has followed through on what it started extremely well.

[george wilson]

Just before I retired as Master Toolmaker at Colonial Williamsburg,I bought a Saw Stop from the Woodcraft store in Richmond,Va. 45 miles away. I did not have the chance to use it an awful lot,but my replacement person is a new woodworker,and I thought the safety factor worthwhile. I also had to buy the 8" dado set,and the special brake for the dado set. The saw is very particular about getting the blade close enough to the brake pad. Takes some getting used to. The saw seems well made. I had a friend warn me that they had had several brakes shoot unprovoked into the blade. I really think this is because they run a model shop,and have used the saw to cut metal,and mirror plexiglas. The metal conducted body capacitance to the blade,and whamo!!.I also think their cutting of metal with the saw probably left some small metal chips and dust that set the brake off. Brakes are about $80.00 + a new blade. The guy who runs the Woodcraft store,who I know and trust,said they had sold many of the saws without any brake problems. As for longevity of the company? Who Knows?

[Dan Friedrichs]

Bill -

Very good point about the American made cars :)

Just a thought: Even if the unthinkable happened and SS folded, there have been enough sawstops sold that someone would find it worth their time to manufacture aftermarket replacement brake cartridges. I wouldn't worry about that at all...

[Bill Keehn]

I really think this is because they run a model shop,and have used the saw to cut metal,and mirror plexiglas. The metal conducted body capacitance to the blade,and whamo!!.

George, good point. Conductive debris can definitely cause a trigger. I'd never cut metal on my Sawstop. If I had a need for cutting metal I'd have a second less expensive saw for that purpose.

[M Toupin]

They are already the #1 selling saw

Where did this statistic come from?

I'm having a really hard time believing SS is outselling all other models, especially at their price point.

Mike

[Peter Gregory]

Interesting thread.

I was just thinking, that if SS went out of business and you engaged the saw's stop mechanism and couldn't replace it, it is still a win. I would much rather have a dead saw than a dead finger. If I was worried about the company going under, I would buy an extra mechanism and call it a day. Can you engage it twice in one lifetime? Wouldn't you get really careful after the first time?

Personally, I run a Euro sliding table saw, with splitter, overhead blade guard, and a couple of shop made push sticks. I'm not sure which is safer, my setup of a SS, but they are pretty close IMHO. Can't understand owning a saw without a splitter and saw guard, but I guess Norm does it on camera and I'm not very cool.

Get the safer saw, use a splitter, use a saw guard with dust collection, the finger you save...

[Joe Jensen]

Where did this statistic come from?

I'm having a really hard time believing SS is outselling all other models, especially at their price point.

Mike

Sawstop claims to be the #1 selling cabinet saw on their website home page...joe

[Joe Jensen]

I'm still of the opinion that no saw technology replaces common sense and caution in woodworking.

John, just because a SawStop would replace common sense for you does not mean that it would for everyone else. Further, who other than detractors has stated that a SawStop replaces the need for other safety measures, safe opertating practices, and common sense. Maybe it's just you????

[John Ricci]

Ok guys, I did expect to take some heat over my statement about SS failure and the point I was trying to make was that no one has ever invented a machine of any type or purpose that at some time has not had a failure during whatever unseen circumstance (Houston, we have a problem) regardless of the attention to detail that was taken during the design and manufacture. My worry lies with the feeling that the SS technology could breed a degree of complacency on the part of some users much like a big SUV can give some drivers a false sense of invincibility until that first bad accident. The worst case scenario that comes to mind for me is the smart aleck kid in a school shop setting who deliberately tries to trip the SS brake only to find that he is the first statistic.

At no time was I slamming the product which I too believe is very well made but not immune to that one freak "hey watch this" moment or a real accident situation that could end badly.

J.R.

[Joe Jensen]

Ok guys, I did expect to take some heat over my statement about SS failure and the point I was trying to make was that no one has ever invented a machine of any type or purpose that at some time has not had a failure during whatever unseen circumstance (Houston, we have a problem) regardless of the attention to detail that was taken during the design and manufacture. My worry lies with the feeling that the SS technology could breed a degree of complacency on the part of some users much like a big SUV can give some drivers a false sense of invincibility until that first bad accident. The worst case scenario that comes to mind for me is the smart aleck kid in a school shop setting who deliberately tries to trip the SS brake only to find that he is the first statistic.

At no time was I slamming the product which I too believe is very well made but not immune to that one freak "hey watch this" moment or a real accident situation that could end badly.

J.R.

these are all true :)

[Don Eddard]

...Two things probably not resolved in my mind is 1 easy scratching cast 2 the motor.
Is a scratched top really an issue on a table saw? As long as we're not talking about the Grand Canyon, I don't see the problem. Yes, it may be indicative of a lower-quality cast iron, but considering the millions of feet of timber that get cut accurately on table saws of all shapes and sizes every year, I would think one could do high-quality work on a top that's less then Meehanite quality. Good cast iron vs. great cast iron is still a pretty close match.

[Joe Chritz]

If you try to make something idiot proof they will just build a better idiot. I am in a position to say this with some degree of confidence.

The SS takes all the major safety features (riving knife mainly) and adds one the is unavailable anywhere else. I don't believe they are idiot proofing the saw, just removing one method of injury that often occurs when people engage their hands before their heads.

Anyone here remember when anti lock brakes first came out. People all over were complaining that they were no good, would fail and all sorts of other problems. Now they are standard and have prevented an uncountable number of accidents and reduced severity of who knows how many more.

Unless you build it yourself you are unlikely to find the perfect set up. Take the pros vs the cons and if the pros win buy it.

Joe

[Tony Scolaro]

Gee folks thanks for all the help. It is true we can live with softer cast. I know I can. But we need to call it like it is. The only question really for me is the motor under production or semi production situation. It would be quite unfortunate to have a saw that couldn't handle it. There is a big difference in a hobby situation and one that can run for a shift like old unisaws and PM 66. I just gave up a saw that could run 3 shifts the Oliver 232 I sold. With no regrets I quickly add. I am going to call an Production outfit in Portland Or. that has three SS and see what I find out. I will report back. I hope they tell me we run them all day long and just love them. Also will go look under the hood again at local tool merchant tomorrow. In the mean time if anyone runs SS all day long in a production situation please chime in with candor. Many, Many thanks Tony


Is a scratched top really an issue on a table saw? As long as we're not talking about the Grand Canyon, I don't see the problem. Yes, it may be indicative of a lower-quality cast iron, but considering the millions of feet of timber that get cut accurately on table saws of all shapes and sizes every year, I would think one could do high-quality work on a top that's less then Meehanite quality. Good cast iron vs. great cast iron is still a pretty close match.

[Denny Rice]

Ok guys, I did expect to take some heat over my statement about SS failure and the point I was trying to make was that no one has ever invented a machine of any type or purpose that at some time has not had a failure during whatever unseen circumstance (Houston, we have a problem) regardless of the attention to detail that was taken during the design and manufacture. My worry lies with the feeling that the SS technology could breed a degree of complacency on the part of some users much like a big SUV can give some drivers a false sense of invincibility until that first bad accident. The worst case scenario that comes to mind for me is the smart aleck kid in a school shop setting who deliberately tries to trip the SS brake only to find that he is the first statistic.

At no time was I slamming the product which I too believe is very well made but not immune to that one freak "hey watch this" moment or a real accident situation that could end badly.

John,
Don't feel bad, I took the same heat from this forum when I made the same comments about the Saw Stop as you did. It seems there are a bunch of guys that feel like your "knocking" on them when you say something negative about Saw Stop, take it with a grain of salt.:)

[Ken Milhinch]

Here's a slightly different perspective from someone who has never even seen a sawstop saw, and frankly would not buy one even if he could. Schools and commercial shops aside, I just don't get why you part with the extra cash so easily.

I presume each and every one of you sawstop owners have smoke alarms in every room of your house ? If not, why not ? You are far more likely to be injured or even killed by a house fire.

I also presume you and your families travel in cars with stability control and side curtain airbags. If not, why not ? You are far more likely to be injured or killed in an auto accident.

The list goes on, but I am sure you get my point. Of course if you feel that at some time in the future you are going to be stupid enough to plunge your hand into your saw then maybe it's a good investment:rolleyes:

[Time to don the fire suit I think]

[Denny Rice]

Here's a slightly different perspective from someone who has never even seen a sawstop saw, and frankly would not buy one even if he could. Schools and commercial shops aside, I just don't get why you part with the extra cash so easily.

I presume each and every one of you sawstop owners have smoke alarms in every room of your house ? If not, why not ? You are far more likely to be injured or even killed by a house fire.

I also presume you and your families travel in cars with stability control and side curtain airbags. If not, why not ? You are far more likely to be injured or killed in an auto accident.

The list goes on, but I am sure you get my point. Of course if you feel that at some time in the future you are going to be stupid enough to plunge your hand into your saw then maybe it's a good investment:rolleyes:

[Time to don the fire suit I think]

Could not agree more Ken.

Denny

[Per Swenson]

Ken,

Sorry, but to suggest that folks would plunge their fingers into spinning saw blades intentionally isn't a good argument. Sort of akin to driving the wrong way in traffic to test your airbags, seat belt and anti lock brakes.
Have you ever been to a convention of finish carpenters or cabinet makers?
Missing digits and horror story's are far more prevalent then you might think
and the majority of kick back injuries resulting in blunt trauma, but no blood, go unreported. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and a dependency on skill and experience alone to always keep you safe.
Personally I don't like the odds.

Per

[Cody Colston]

It's absolutely amazing how polarizing the subject of Sawstop and Festool have become. Sorta funny, too, to read the replies from the groupies and apologists.

From everything I have read and seen, the Sawstop is THE premiere American-style table saw. It tops all the magazine rankings because of features like the wider (30") table, riving knife, dust collection, heavy-duty trunnions and, of course, the blade-stop feature.

It almost makes me want to buy one. But, being a principled sort of guy and detesting being forced into anything, I can't get past the attempt Steve Gass made to legislate his invention as mandatory...all in the interest of safety, mind you.

So, I'll have to just pay attention where I put my fingers when using my el-cheapo Grizzly cabinet saw. I hope I don't get distracted wondering what I will spend the extra $3000 dollars on that is the difference in price between the Griz and the Sawstop. ;)

[Joe Jensen]

Here's a slightly different perspective from someone who has never even seen a sawstop saw, and frankly would not buy one even if he could. Schools and commercial shops aside, I just don't get why you part with the extra cash so easily.

I presume each and every one of you sawstop owners have smoke alarms in every room of your house ? If not, why not ? You are far more likely to be injured or even killed by a house fire.

I also presume you and your families travel in cars with stability control and side curtain airbags. If not, why not ? You are far more likely to be injured or killed in an auto accident.

The list goes on, but I am sure you get my point. Of course if you feel that at some time in the future you are going to be stupid enough to plunge your hand into your saw then maybe it's a good investment:rolleyes:

[Time to don the fire suit I think]

Interesting perspective. I do have smoke alarms in each bedroom. I also have 3 cars, and all have antilock brakes, stability control (vehicle dynamics) and side impact air bags. These features were important enough to me that I bought a brand new 2007 VW Jetta just to get them for my daughters. BTW, some idiot ran a red light last week and T-boned my wife and I in our very safe expensive car. We walked away with no injuries. Could we have in another car, maybe. Am I glad a spent a butt load on the car I did, absolutely.

I am not a safety nut. But, when I was 14 I did get my finger in a tablesaw. over 30 years later I can still remember how teeth felt hitting the bone.

Keep in mind that it's all relative. For some the Sawstop is a huge percentage of income. For others, it's a small percentage of their income. If the SawStop were a large part of my income I'd have pushed back on my wife. She saw the demo and insisted that I buy it.

[Joe Jensen]

One more thought. These threads almost always start with someone asking a simple question of those who own a SawStop. Then detractors of either Gass or the price of the saw jump in to say how stupid people are for buying one or how the technology is sure to fail, or the company is sure to fail, or how its simpler to just not put your hand in the saw.

These threads wouldn't degrade if the detractors would stick to answering the original posters question and not feel the irresistable desire to jump on their soap box.

[Mark Grotenhuis]

Where did this statistic come from?

I'm having a really hard time believing SS is outselling all other models, especially at their price point.

Mike

My Local woodcraft owner says sawstop outsells all other brand tablesaws 3:1 in their store. Pretty impressive if you ask me.

As a side note I used to be 100% sure that as long as you practice safe tablesaw techniques you will never have an accident. I thought the sawstop was designed for people who needed extra protection because they chose to be careless. Then one day I was using my miter gauge on a tablesaw when the miter gauge unexpectedly came loose and the angle changed while pushing it through the blade. It kicked like a horse and I lost the tip of my finger. It took me several days to even come to terms with the fact that I had an accident. I was just so convinced it was impossible as long as you were safe.

Now reading these sawstop debates I know exactly where the people who say the sawstop is frivolous are coming from ... because I was one of you. Take my advice, don't be stubborn. Accidents happen, and if there is a technology out there that prevents accidents; give it a chance. Not a day goes by that I don't wish I had bought my sawstop sooner. And if you read this and think "well he was just stupid ... that's why he lost his finger" I wish you the best ... hopefully it never happens to you. But what is really stupid? Knowing you could have prevented your accident? Or being too stubborn to admit that an accident could ever happen to you?

[Jonathan Spool]

Getting back to the original question:
Although I cannot attest to whether the SS will hold up for a shift under heavy work load, I can say that my 5HP SS rips through 2.5" maple like butter, while my old 3HP Walket Turner used to take some babying. WWII bladfes used in both cases.
Jonathan

[george wilson]

I wrote an earlier post about the Saw Stop I bought for work. I don't have one at home,and probably won't,because you cannot use different diameter blades on them. I made a 6" blade into a .020" kerf blade for cutting fret slots for guitars. I have a number of special blades that would not work on the sawstop. Actually,now I remember that for our Saw Stop,we used the blade that came with it.Then we put on a 10" Forrest blade. Saw wouldn't start. There was a small difference in the diameter od the 2 nominally 10" blades. Brake had to be adjusted. Also,as I mentioned,we had a perfectly good 6" dado blade. We had to buy an expensive 8" dado,AND a special brake unit.


Lastly,the throat plate is very special,and a pain to make,so we had to buy a special blank throat plate for use with the dado. Usually,I just make a quick throat plateup. Not so with the Saw Stop. Their throat plate has to be machined specially to slip under some screws. I have milling machines,but your average ,or purely woodworking shop might find this problematic. For cutting dados across a cupped board,I make up a humped throat plate. The hump causes the dado to be cut to the same depth across the cupped board.Eventually,the cup could be pulled out as you assemble the shelves,or whatever. They don't make a humped throat plate,si I guess you have to buy a blank plastic one,and try to glue a hump onto it?


I did cut my first 2 fingers through the fingernails just as I was getting out of college. I had never had much money,and had scrounged up an old 1930's TILTING TABLE table saw. I only had a low powered motor on it. I was ripping some narrow wood strips,when the table must have tilted a bit. The motor stalled down. The capacitor kicked in,and drew my fingers back across the blade. 2 years before I could comfortably dial a phone(old rotary). I bought my Dewalt 10" table saw my first year of having a decent job. I still have it.

I am only stating a few things that a person might want to consider before buying a saw that requires very specific accessories. I'd like to have the safety feature,but I continue to be careful (and lucky!) with my old Dewalt,and use my special blades and throatplates.

[Ken Milhinch]

Ken,

Sorry, but to suggest that folks would plunge their fingers into spinning saw blades intentionally isn't a good argument. Sort of akin to driving the wrong way in traffic to test your airbags, seat belt and anti lock brakes.
Have you ever been to a convention of finish carpenters or cabinet makers?
Missing digits and horror story's are far more prevalent then you might think
and the majority of kick back injuries resulting in blunt trauma, but no blood, go unreported. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and a dependency on skill and experience alone to always keep you safe.
Personally I don't like the odds.

Per
Per,
You are referring to carpenters & cabinet makers, and I specifically excluded schools and commercial shops from my comment. Familiarity breeds contempt, and that is why many carpenters & cabinet makers can't count to ten on their fingers. My comment was directed more to hobby users.

[Greg Pavlov]

Per,
You are referring to carpenters & cabinet makers, and I specifically excluded schools and commercial shops from my comment. Familiarity breeds contempt, and that is why many carpenters & cabinet makers can't count to ten on their fingers. My comment was directed more to hobby users.
I think that in addition to problems caused by not being careful there are also problems caused by "unexpected" and "unanticipated" events. Someone who has worked with wood and wood tools extensively, especially professionals, has probably run into just about every possible problem, hiccup, etc and (hopefully) learned a lesson from it without paying (too high) a penalty. A lot of hobbyist folks haven't. I wouldn't be surprised,for example, if a lot of people have never seen how much of a weapon a chunk of wood caught in a kickback can be. I definitely haven't, I've learned to appreciate *that* problem from reading this site: I've had kickbacks but nothing on the scale & power that people here have seen. ALSO, a lot of hobbyists have occupations that could be affected by a power tool injury. I know someone very well who does quite a bit of surgery, for example, and if/when he buys a table saw I very much hope that he decides to buy a SawStop.

[Chris Padilla]

Per,
You are referring to carpenters & cabinet makers, and I specifically excluded schools and commercial shops from my comment. Familiarity breeds contempt, and that is why many carpenters & cabinet makers can't count to ten on their fingers. My comment was directed more to hobby users.

I'm not sure if it breeds comtempt (maybe, if you hate your job) but complacency, I'm sure.

I would easily part with the cash for SS because I believe accidents are just that: accidental, not on purpose. One could be doing everything in one's power to be safe and, whammo, something happens. Mark Grotenhuis provides a perfect example. 'Nuff said for this Yank! :)

[Dennis Thornton]

Personally, I can't see how Sawstop couldn't be the number one selling saw. If I were responsible for the purchase of equipment for a school or business there's really only one option - the safest saw on the market. Insurance and legal costs alone make it the least expensive TS. And really, who wouldn't want the safest equipment for their employees?

[Ken Milhinch]

I'm not sure if it breeds comtempt (maybe, if you hate your job) but complacency, I'm sure.


Chris,
I forgot you guys don't speak the Queen's English. :) The expression "Familiarity breeds contempt" is an old one and in this context means disdain or disregard.

Anyway to more important matters, I think many of you have missed my point entirely. (Probably that language problem again );)

I was not saying that the sawstop is not a well made saw and not that it isn't a great safety feature. My point to hobbyists is that when you spend some part of your income on safety, I wonder if you have covered the more important - and likely - risks like fire in your home or collision in your car, before you allocate money to a saw.
Of course everyone can spend their money as they see fit, but it just seems silly to me to have a saw that will protect your fingers, and maybe not have something in your house or car that could save your family's life.

I am all in favour of safety - who wouldn't be ? But chopping a finger off on a saw is way down my list of dangers to be worried about.

[Chris Padilla]

Ken,

I didn't miss your point. I have smoke/CO2 detectors in every room in my home. My family's car got top marks for safety for its year (2001) and I have to be honest, I'm not sure where my truck ranks (2006) but I paid for extra airbags in it.

So, yeah, I'm concerned about safety...why not extend that to my hobby that I spend most of my weekends and evenings enjoying?

You are making assumptions about risks. I don't even drive my car to get to work: I bike (albeit, possibly even more risky!!). So my point is that I'm sure we're all concerned about safety and place it as we see fit in our lives.

I don't own a SS but I would like one. I also will likely not buy a brand new one. I am being patient and trying to get a used one. They don't come up often and when they do, the prices are still spendy but one day, with patience, I think I will get one.

Finally, do you want to know my main reason for wanting a SS? It isn't because of the finger-saver (although that is #1 on my wife's list), it is because of the dust-collection improvememt!

(1) Dust Collection
(2) Larger Cast Iron Table Surface
(3) Finger Saver
(4) Riving Knife

If I found a PM2k for a good price, I would get that, too, because it also has a dust shroud for better DC. So I'm looking for both right now...I'm sure one will come up.

[Bill Keehn]

My Local woodcraft owner says sawstop outsells all other brand tablesaws 3:1 in their store. Pretty impressive if you ask me.

As a side note I used to be 100% sure that as long as you practice safe tablesaw techniques you will never have an accident. I thought the sawstop was designed for people who needed extra protection because they chose to be careless. Then one day I was using my miter gauge on a tablesaw when the miter gauge unexpectedly came loose and the angle changed while pushing it through the blade. It kicked like a horse and I lost the tip of my finger. It took me several days to even come to terms with the fact that I had an accident. I was just so convinced it was impossible as long as you were safe.

Now reading these sawstop debates I know exactly where the people who say the sawstop is frivolous are coming from ... because I was one of you. Take my advice, don't be stubborn. Accidents happen, and if there is a technology out there that prevents accidents; give it a chance. Not a day goes by that I don't wish I had bought my sawstop sooner. And if you read this and think "well he was just stupid ... that's why he lost his finger" I wish you the best ... hopefully it never happens to you. But what is really stupid? Knowing you could have prevented your accident? Or being too stubborn to admit that an accident could ever happen to you?


Point taken Mark, but the Sawstop might not have helped in that particular situation. Was it the blade that got you or the mitre gage?

[Tony Scolaro]

Hi all

First to Joe’s point Money has never been a question with me. Nor is the companies mode of operation, trying to get laws passed, nor price fixing and all of that. I put that all aside in my questions and most of my decision making. And up front admit I like old American Iron at least as an initial default position.
As I said it was the fit and finish of the SS that distracted me in the first place. I was impressed. These discussion are tough even when a lot of BS is kept out of them. I believe it is because people have a heavy investment in their equipment in both dollars and psychologically and emotionally attachment. They hear they are being told they are wrong. Nobody wants to be told they are wrong even if the person never said they were. Often that how it is internalized when a question is raised.

With that said and with many, many thanks. Let me say.
I went and looked at the saw again today. It still shines nice and a lot of very well thought out features even with the safety brake set aside. Nice big table, like the motor cover dust collection seemed great. But what about the pot metal looking spider gear under the hood looks a little light and small. Not a machined gear. That is the sort of thing that concerns me. I want to pull the trigger and probably will but...

Now perhaps a little less tender. Looking at the machine as a machine objectively, please don’t get mad, just a friendly discussion that include only honesty.

If I said take brake out of picture and compare the North American made General 650 with the Baldor motor for $2800 to the Saw Stop ( without brake and special electronics) for the same $2800 which would you choose? In my mind there is no way I would go with the SS. So that solves it right. NO because the Saw Stop does have the additional safety feature that is a quantum difference in safety. It is just tough for me to accept that in the name of the most safety I have to buy a machine that otherwise would be my second choice. Just some thoughts I will probably get over it. Tony

[Ken Milhinch]

Time to throw some more lighter fluid on the barbecue.:)

1. Are you sure the General 650 is made in North America, or is it just the motor ? ( I don't know)

2. What evidence is there to suggest that a motor made in North America is better than a motor made in Taiwan ?

[Greg Pavlov]

..... These discussion are tough even when a lot of BS is kept out of them. I believe it is because people have a heavy investment in their equipment in both dollars and psychologically and emotionally attachment. They hear they are being told they are wrong. Nobody wants to be told they are wrong even if the person never said they were. ....
I agree with you that discussions about equipment (in just about any hobby/sports/field) can have a lot of that as undercurrent but I don't think that that is true in this case. I think instead that discussions about SS can get heated because some of the main issues are political and philosophical in nature.

[Mark Grotenhuis]

Point taken Mark, but the Sawstop might not have helped in that particular situation. Was it the blade that got you or the mitre gage?

My finger got kicked into the 3/8" dado blade setup I was using. A sawstop could have easily prevented my amputation. It was the loose handle on the miter gauge that caused the board to kick, and the blade that did the damage.

[Greg Pavlov]

.....It almost makes me want to buy one. But, being a principled sort of guy and detesting being forced into anything, I can't get past the attempt Steve Gass made to legislate his invention as mandatory...all in the interest of safety, mind you. ..... ;)
I didn't appreciate it either, but if I was going to boycott every company that has tried to use regulations, laws, lobbying etc as a substitute for marketplace competition, I suspect I woduln't have too many options left.

[John Ricci]

Time to throw some more lighter fluid on the barbecue.:)

1. Are you sure the General 650 is made in North America, or is it just the motor ? ( I don't know)

The General 650R is made in Drummondville Quebec, Canada and they own their own foundry that makes the Meehanite castings. This saw is not part of the offshore General International line that they sell...believe me, I did my research, I own one and would never have spent $2800Cdn. for a Taiwanese saw. My .02Cdn.

http://www.general.ca/pagemach/machines/0general/650R_350Rt50a.html

J.R.

[george wilson]

Ken,import Asian motors can be a bit of a grab bag. They are not insulated well: their rotors are not dipped in insulating varnish. I had a 3 h.p. one arc across the ball bearings,and die. Some of the Asian motors at least used to be made with aluminium wiring and windings, Aluminum wires in USA houses were banned years ago. Aluminum does not stand up like copper to expansion and contraction and current buzzing it. It cracks after a while,causes arcs inside walls,and burns houses down. When I recommended the Grizzly jointer,I was careful to not recommend the motor. Asian stuff is made to sell so cheaply that it's a wonder that they can do it at all. I have seen videos of large metal turning lathes being put together in India ON THE FLOOR,by barefooted workers. Wonder how clean their gearboxes and bearings are? The American public wants really cheap goods. That's what's driving this whole thing. When I was young,there were no options except American,and it was terribly expensive at the time. The best I could do was an old 8" tilting TABLE table saw,about 16" X 18" from the thirties,and a Sears 1/4" drill. Those WERE my power tools. I could only dream of having a planer until the 60's,when I got a really fouled up 12" Parks planer. They were junk, their power feed gearboxes were always broken and replaced with a jury rigged drive.

I'm getting way off topic. My point is,this import stuff is incredibly cheap.In many ways,we are living better on account of it,but at the expense of our industry.The motors may have to be changed,but if the rest of the machine is o.k.,it can be worth it.

[Ken Milhinch]

George,

Good information, but I would caution USA buyers against lumping all products made in, say, China, India & Taiwan together as "Asian" products. Some of the best machinery you could wish to see comes out of Taiwan, and some of the worst out of China. Personally, I will not buy any machinery (or food) made in China, but I will willingly buy Taiwanese products.

[Dan O'Shea]

Of course if you feel that at some time in the future you are going to be stupid enough to plunge your hand into your saw then maybe it's a good investment:rolleyes:


Nobody plans to have an accident Ken. That's why they're called accidents.

[Peter Gregory]

But, being a principled sort of guy and detesting being forced into anything, I can't get past the attempt Steve Gass made to legislate his invention as mandatory...all in the interest of safety, mind you.

This is simply the way of our capitalist system. I'm having trouble thinking of a large company that isn't trying to do something like this or a smaller company that wouldn't like to. For example, you shouldn't be using any Microsoft products, if this sort of thing bothers you.

The good news is that the system worked, in this one case and there were no laws passed. So, SS had to try to produce a superior product to win in the market place.

[Denny Rice]

Ken,

I didn't miss your point. I have smoke/CO2 detectors in every room in my home. My family's car got top marks for safety for its year (2001) and I have to be honest, I'm not sure where my truck ranks (2006) but I paid for extra airbags in it.

So, yeah, I'm concerned about safety...why not extend that to my hobby that I spend most of my weekends and evenings enjoying?

You are making assumptions about risks. I don't even drive my car to get to work: I bike (albeit, possibly even more risky!!). So my point is that I'm sure we're all concerned about safety and place it as we see fit in our lives.

I don't own a SS but I would like one. I also will likely not buy a brand new one. I am being patient and trying to get a used one. They don't come up often and when they do, the prices are still spendy but one day, with patience, I think I will get one.

Finally, do you want to know my main reason for wanting a SS? It isn't because of the finger-saver (although that is #1 on my wife's list), it is because of the dust-collection improvememt!

(1) Dust Collection
(2) Larger Cast Iron Table Surface
(3) Finger Saver
(4) Riving Knife

If I found a PM2k for a good price, I would get that, too, because it also has a dust shroud for better DC. So I'm looking for both right now...I'm sure one will come up.

I think if people are that uncomfortable or "worried" about using a quality table saw they don't need one. Or maybe instead of spending all that money on a SS tablesaw, spend that 3 grand you would save and purchase safety lessons on how to properly use your power tools. Safety is important, but so is being comfortable using your power tools so one does not get hurt.

[Loren Hedahl]

Gee folks thanks for all the help. It is true we can live with softer cast. I know I can. But we need to call it like it is. The only question really for me is the motor under production or semi production situation. It would be quite unfortunate to have a saw that couldn't handle it. There is a big difference in a hobby situation and one that can run for a shift like old unisaws and PM 66. I just gave up a saw that could run 3 shifts the Oliver 232 I sold. With no regrets I quickly add. I am going to call an Production outfit in Portland Or. that has three SS and see what I find out. I will report back. I hope they tell me we run them all day long and just love them. Also will go look under the hood again at local tool merchant tomorrow. In the mean time if anyone runs SS all day long in a production situation please chime in with candor. Many, Many thanks Tony

Most areas have a motor rewind shop that can restore just about any motor to new or sometimes better-than-new as long as the frame is intact. Even then, cracked frames can often be dealt with. There really is no magic in this.

[Byron Trantham]

I think if people are that uncomfortable or "worried" about using a quality table saw they don't need one. Or maybe instead of spending all that money on a SS tablesaw, spend that 3 grand you would save and purchase safety lessons on how to properly use your power tools. Safety is important, but so is being comfortable using your power tools so one does not get hurt.

I couldn't have said it better!

[M Toupin]

My Local woodcraft owner says sawstop outsells all other brand tablesaws 3:1 in their store.

I think that's a bit bias in that the woodcraft target audience is a more discriminating buyer. Just as high end bicycle shops sell more high end bikes than low end due to their clientèle. That's not to say that wallmart & kmart doesn't sell a LOT more low end bikes on any given day.


because I was one of you. Take my advice, don't be stubborn.

Were the heck did that come from? I merely questioned the previously posted statistic that SS is the #1 selling TS.

Mike

[Mark Grotenhuis]

I think that's a bit bias in that the woodcraft target audience is a more discriminating buyer. Just as high end bicycle shops sell more high end bikes than low end due to their clientèle. That's not to say that wallmart & kmart doesn't sell a LOT more low end bikes on any given day.

Were the heck did that come from? I merely questioned the previously posted statistic that SS is the #1 selling TS.

Mike

That's a good point Mike, and I agree. I was just pointing out that sawstops are indeed selling very well.

As for the second quote, I was in no way singling you out Mike, I hadn't even thought of it that way. Sorry for any confusion.

[george wilson]

Ken,I agree with you 100% about Taiwan products being better. They started first,and have gotten more expertise. Fortunately for me,all but 1 of my import machines was bought when Taiwan was the chief maker. My Delta thickness sander is Chinese,probably. It was a Taiwan motor that did burn out on me,though,and the aluminum wound motors were Taiwan,too. Eventually,China will get better,and occupy Taiwan's status.Japan,who used to be the source of junk,has gained tremendous prestiege,and ars very high priced.

[mreza Salav]

I think if people are that uncomfortable or "worried" about using a quality table saw they don't need one. Or maybe instead of spending all that money on a SS tablesaw, spend that 3 grand you would save and purchase safety lessons on how to properly use your power tools. Safety is important, but so is being comfortable using your power tools so one does not get hurt.

By the same reasoning your do, if you pay any extra for a car with seat belts, ABS braking, a bumper, or whatever that is used as a safety feature in a car then maybe you don't need a car!

It is just amazing how some people think that they know the rules and others don't and all accidents are caused because those people are stupid, don't know how to use a table saw, or whatever; yeah these sort of things won't ever happen to them! I wish it was true, that accidents wouldn't happen to this crowd, but there are counter-examples in this very thread.

[Cody Colston]

This is simply the way of our capitalist system. I'm having trouble thinking of a large company that isn't trying to do something like this or a smaller company that wouldn't like to. For example, you shouldn't be using any Microsoft products, if this sort of thing bothers you.

The good news is that the system worked, in this one case and there were no laws passed. So, SS had to try to produce a superior product to win in the market place.

Comparing Microsoft to the attempt Gass made is comparing apples to oranges, IMNSHO. There is no law that says you have to buy Microsoft's product when buying a computer. It just happens that the MS operating system is also a better mousetrap. If Dell, Compac, IBM etc. want to use another company's OS, they are free to do so, ie, there's no law that says they can't...there's only demand from the buying public...that's capitalism.

Gass attempted to legislate his mousetrap into law...have the Fed make it so that all new tablesaws sold in the USA would have to incorporate his blade-stop device...with a nice little royalty going to him. I have a problem with that. Were it not for that particular attempt on his part, I would likely own one of his saws because it is a quality product and you can't ignore the safety aspect of it.

But, while it is a well made tool and the blade-stop device has, so far, proven to reduce serious injury by it's users, I still believe that one can safely use a conventional tablesaw without undue risk of amputating a digit.

All accidents are preventable. Other than an "act of God" there is no excuse for an accident to occur. Any safety engineer, and I've talked to dozens of them, will confirm that fact. They are all the result of either an unsafe act, an unsafe condition or both.

Tablesaws are inherently dangerous. You can seriously cut yourself on the blade without the saw even being plugged in if you are careless. The key to avoiding injury is to mitigate that danger by eliminating the unsafe act or unsafe condition.

If you use correct technique, thoroughly inspect your tools, equipment and the wood prior to use and "stop the job" if the dynamics change or you feel unsure about the task, then you will not get hurt. Period.

If you are unwilling or unable to do those things, every time, then the only solution is to put in place engineering controls to do for you what you won't do for yourself...enter Sawstop.

Sticking your hand into a spinning saw blade is not accidental, even if you didn't do it intentionally. It happens for a reason; you were in a hurry, you were tired, you slipped, you were distracted, something was loose on the miter gauge, there was a kickback...

The Sawstop device is an engineering control that protects you AFTER the fact...just like a seat belt protects you in a collision. But, just as most of us drive our entire lives without having a collision in an automobile, so do MOST woodworkers go their entire lives without cutting off a finger. That is proof positive that using a tablesaw can be done safely, without depending on the Sawstop device.

Is Sawstop additional insurance against injury even if you do all the correct things...of course it is. But, statements like "there is no other sensible option" are misleading at best. There is an option, only it involves personal responsibility for your safety versus dependence on an engineering control.

[Wilbur Pan]

To me it's completely believable that the SawStop has become the best selling tablesaw. I bet that most of the sales are to institutions, schools, or industry, specifically for the safety factor.

As to the cost of the safety mechanism, I've never seen anyone whose finger was saved by a SawStop say afterwards that the cost wasn't worth it.

[Chris Padilla]

But, just as most of us drive our entire lives without having a collision in an automobile, so do MOST woodworkers go their entire lives without cutting off a finger. That is proof positive that using a tablesaw can be done safely, without depending on the Sawstop device.

I wonder about that statement, Cody. I don't think there is enough data out there to either support or deny this claim. I wonder how many accidents are NOT reported. I bet it is quite high. However, I suspect that if by "MOST" you mean >50%, you may be correct....

Automobiles are tougher to compare because they usually involve two humans interracting (though, certainly, not always). For the TS, it is typically one person and one machine.

[Rod Sheridan]

Nobody plans to have an accident Ken. That's why they're called accidents.


In my opinion, they're not accidents, they're incidents.

In industry, accidents don't happen, they're caused.

They're caused by lack of engineering controls (guards, personal protective equipment, operator training etc).

They can also be caused by machine failures, or by operators who don't follow the correct procedures.

Procedures and engineering controls are often improved following an incident, which is how machinery and operators become safer.

Improvements in technology also improve safety. SS is a secondary safety system, it's for that one life altering moment when the primary safety controls didn't work.

The primary controls are guards, power feeders, push sticks, operator training etc.

Arguably the only difference between an SS machine and a non SS machine is the ability to protect the operator who has become exposed to a hazaard due to lack of operator training or engineering controls.

(the SS only prevents a serious injury once the operator has put their body in contact with the blade).

The SS system does provide that one important safety feature that could prevent a serious injury.

For this reason it's probably the most significant safety measure in decades, however it remains a secondary safety device.

If I were purchasing a new saw, I would certainly lean towards the SS, although I probably wouldn't gain as much improvement in safety as others may, since I have an overarm guard on my saw which is never removed, along with a removable splitter.

If I had employees, friends, family who used my saw, the SS would be an absolute requirement for me, as I couldn't provide enough supervision to ensure that all other engineering controls were being used at all times.

In summation, an accident is a failure to plan, and control hazzards to a suitable extent. SS gives us a powerful tool to add to our existing controls.

regards, Rod.

[Michael McCoy]

I wonder about that statement, Cody. I don't think there is enough data out there to either support or deny this claim.

With the size of SMC membership it would be easy enough to start a poll type thread and get some idea about members involved in a shop incident with a table saw. On the other hand I'm not sure that it would be a valid cross section with the general public.

[Chris Padilla]

With the size of SMC membership it would be easy enough to start a poll type thread and get some idea about members involved in a shop incident with a table saw. On the other hand I'm not sure that it would be a valid cross section with the general public.

Geez, these worms are spilling out everywhere...can't get 'em back in the can!!

We'd have to think carefully about how to define "shop incident" with a table saw!

First, does it need powered on?
Second, does ANY contact of flesh with the blade need to have occured?
Third, what about kickback assuming no flesh contact with the blade?
Fourth, it is likely to NOT be valid because this is a specialized forum and it is likely that much much less than 1% of table saw owners/users would ever see the poll.

In my case: yes, I've experienced kickback (bruised shoulder as a result) and no, I've never have my own flesh connect with a spinning blade. I have had flesh contact with a non-spinning blade causing a very very minor injury. My father has had flesh connect with a spinning blade (lost a very small section of the tip of one of his thumbs).

[Cody Colston]

I wonder about that statement, Cody. I don't think there is enough data out there to either support or deny this claim. I wonder how many accidents are NOT reported. I bet it is quite high. However, I suspect that if by "MOST" you mean >50%, you may be correct....

Automobiles are tougher to compare because they usually involve two humans interracting (though, certainly, not always). For the TS, it is typically one person and one machine.

Chris,

Yes, "most" would be more than 50%.

I know lots of woodworkers. Nearly all of them have all their fingers.
Most of the drivers I know have never been in a collision.

Maybe my own little world is not representative of the US as a whole. In that case, I apologize for the extrapolation. :)

[Tony Scolaro]

I will say along the way after all the discussion and research the motor issue has become a little less of an issue. Any company that will warrant it for 5 years has some confidence in it. Good point that it can be rewired.

By the same token that little undersized spider gear under the hood that looks like it is made of pot metal that facilitates raising and lowering the blade can be replaced with a better made one if needed over time.

Thanks

Tony

[Paul Ryan]

After missing out on a used sawstop around this area I am currently actively looking for another. I am completely in favor of the govenment mandating the implementation of some type of saw blade stopping technology. I do not agree that the "sawstop" technology should be the only one. What I am getting at is that I feel that all table saw manufactures should be forced to develop some type of saw balde stopping technology. Such as the case with a riving knife. If the manufacture chooses to buy "sawstop" technology so be it. This is no different than what takes place in the auto industry all of the time. The government mandates some new type of technology be on all cars by a certain date. And I don't think there really can be any argument that this type of table saw technology is not safer. We can get on our soap boxes and preach about proper safty practices and so on and so forth. But it comes down to that most people get complacent at some time when using a saw and that is when acidents happen. You can do everything right and safely 99.99% of the time but the .01% is when the acident will happen. I feel that this type of technology is to important to over look. It can save how many fingers and $$$$ every year.


BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY SHOULD BE FORCED TO BUY TECHNOLOGY FROM ONE SOURCE.

[Brian Marks]

I still believe that one can safely use a conventional tablesaw without undue risk of amputating a digit.

As someone who is just getting into woodworking, I am hoping the statement above is true. While I'd love to have the extra protection SS provides, it seems to me that the implication being made by some is that an amputation is inevitable without one. If anything, I'm more worried about kickback than with injuring a finger.

Could this be thought of similarly to home chefs using ultra sharp knives? There is clearly a risk if one is careless, and I know there are guards or even gloves you can wear to add protection -- but you don't see many chefs using them.

[Tony Scolaro]

The long time Shop Floor manager called me back from a going concern with about 24 employees. They have three SS on floor, 5hp. A stand out outfit. He said SS do well but sometimes do bogged down with 8/4 maple. (no not dull blade) I asked if he thought the older vintage PM 66 would have bogged in the same situations. He said if so not as much. I asked if the SS went down would they buy others. He said because of safety he would. So that says something.

I am with Paul wish there was more options for the technology with dif manufacturers. Wow! North American made General 650, Allen Bradley Mag Starter with SS brake when can you deliver it. Thanks all. Good Discussion I am going to take a few to let my thoughts and feeling mellow like wine Tony

[Homer Faucett]

Tony, I've had a SawStop for about 2 years. Hobby use, not production shop, but I have not babied the saw. It's a tool, and meant to be used, in my book. I bought it solely because of the safety features; otherwise I probably would have just kept my Delta contractor saw.

The SawStop came out of the crate perfectly dialed in. I spent 3 hours tuning up my Delta to get it as good as my SawStop came out of the box. The saw has performed exceptionally well over the last two years, with the exception that I have had some misfires attributed to a loose lead screw. Tech support identified it, I tightened it down by hand, and I have had no problems since.

Other than your identification of the spider gear as a potential for trouble, I've never thought twice about whether that would be a problem. The blade height crank is the smoothest I have used, and I kicked the tires on quite a few table saws before getting this one, just like you are.

I know you've asked about whether the CI top is "soft", and I would have to agree with you that it is, indeed soft cast iron. I'm sure you're right that it is softer than the General top, as I believe it is softer than my former Delta. I was able to put a decent sized scratch in the top by driving a screw too deep in a sled I made for repeating cross-cuts, and I did not even realize that I had done so until it was too late. However, it does not affect the function of the saw whatsoever, and I'll just chalk it up to character.

Something you are going to have to get used to is considering whether or not the material you are cutting might accidentally trip the break. My discussions with tech support indicate that MDF can sometimes have metal chips in it that could trip the break, some types of melamine can have conductive pigments in it that could trip the break. You can always use the saw in bypass mode if this is a concern, but I wish there was a better way to prevent false triggers.

I don't ever expect to find out if the brake mechanism works to save a finger, but I find that extra bit of insurance to be worth the investment. Unlike others, I personally know 3 people who are missing digits or parts of digits due to a saw accident.

Regardless, I won't argue that the saw is or is not the best built American-style table saw you can buy, aside from the brake technology, but I have no doubt it will outlast me (and I'll bet money that I'm younger than you), it has a huge CI surface, a great riving knife, and good adjustments. The dust shroud is also nice. However, the brake system is why I bought it.

Only you can decide whether it's worth it to you, but that's my take on the questions you have posed.


I will say along the way after all the discussion and research the motor issue has become a little less of an issue. Any company that will warrant it for 5 years has some confidence in it. Good point that it can be rewired.

By the same token that little undersized spider gear under the hood that looks like it is made of pot metal that facilitates raising and lowering the blade can be replaced with a better made one if needed over time.

Thanks

Tony

[Steve Rozmiarek]

After missing out on a used sawstop around this area I am currently actively looking for another. I am completely in favor of the govenment mandating the implementation of some type of saw blade stopping technology. I do not agree that the "sawstop" technology should be the only one. What I am getting at is that I feel that all table saw manufactures should be forced to develop some type of saw balde stopping technology. Such as the case with a riving knife. If the manufacture chooses to buy "sawstop" technology so be it. This is no different than what takes place in the auto industry all of the time. The government mandates some new type of technology be on all cars by a certain date. And I don't think there really can be any argument that this type of table saw technology is not safer. We can get on our soap boxes and preach about proper safty practices and so on and so forth. But it comes down to that most people get complacent at some time when using a saw and that is when acidents happen. You can do everything right and safely 99.99% of the time but the .01% is when the acident will happen. I feel that this type of technology is to important to over look. It can save how many fingers and $$$$ every year.



BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY SHOULD BE FORCED TO BUY TECHNOLOGY FROM ONE SOURCE.


Paul, I have to respectfully disagree. If the government mandates this technology, what does that do to the cost of saws? This hobby is expensive enough, and after all, who generally bears the cost of tablesaw accidents? I'd say that to be a woodworker, generally you need to have means, and most of us are financially responsable enough to foot that bill on our own. Probably far more so than the general public. Why is it ok for me to be forced to buy something? If I think it is a good idea, and worth the price, I will reward the technology with my purchase. If I choose something else to spend my money on, and Sawstop goes broke because of not getting my money, fine, it wasn't a viable idea. However, someone else will pick up the pieces, improve whatever needed improved to get my money, and they may get it right. Capitalism works, but when the government short circuts the system, the consequences can be far reaching and very unintended.

Nothing against Sawstop, I'm glad the technology is out there and that some folks are getting a good product that adds to their enjoyment of this hobby. Being forced to buy a Sawstop on the other hand, would do the opposite for me, and would hurt my ability to enjoy my chosen vice.

BTW, I don't own a Sawstop, and while I would not buy one for myself, I may for my kids.

One more thing, there is no way that Sawstop outsells Grizz.

[Glen Blanchard]

I still believe that one can safely use a conventional tablesaw without undue risk of amputating a digit.

I would say that the key word in the above sentence is "undue". That is to say that, IMHO, that statement is true. However, although there may not be "undue" risk, there is still risk, even if used safely. As has been stated, that is why they are called "accidents". My career would be over if I were to incur a table saw amputation, so the decision to purchase a SS was a rather simple one - and one that I have never regretted, as I enjoy the heck out of that saw!!

[Tony Scolaro]

I wonder if that same Capitalism works when SS price fixes. I missed the price increase by a couple days. The reseller (local retailer) couldn't sell his old stock to me for old price because SS rules. I said if I get SS to say ok would you then sell the saw to me for old price. He said yes. Saw Stop said no. SS would not let a willing, reseller, and willing buyer, me, make an arms lenght transaction that would be mutually benificial to both in a free. All loose. So yes I am all for Capitalism. Tony

[Paul Ryan]

Tony,

What saw are you looking for 3hp or 5 and how much was the increase? I just got a quote on one yesterday and he said nothing about price increase.

[Tony Scolaro]

Paul

I asked so many question and made comments about the motors because I am up in the air. I have a 3hp on my pm 66 and it has been just fine but I was doing my ripping on the Oliver 232. The shop I mentioned earlier was using the 5hps and he flintched when talking about power but it is a commercial solid wood furniture maker. Great outfit. 3hp would give me more outlet options and associated saw location.

Base the saw is $3099 3hp $3399 for 5hp $419 for 52" fence $175 freight to the store you buy it at $119 for extension table for my set up it went up $350 a couple months back

Tony

[Paul Ryan]

That is what I was quoted yesterday. Thanks

With all of the questions and concerns about the saw it self. Nothing has been mentioned about the fence. How does the fence seem to be in the real world? I am using a steel city saw right now that has a real nice fence moves super smooth and easily. But I am not a huge fan of the sight glass.

[Mike Heidrick]

Paul, I love the sight glass on my SS fence. It is very clear and easy for me to read. It also has the smoothest sliding action of a TS fence I have used. If you like Bies style fences this one is a great clone.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Here's a slightly different perspective from someone who has never even seen a sawstop saw, and frankly would not buy one even if he could. Schools and commercial shops aside, I just don't get why you part with the extra cash so easily.

I presume each and every one of you sawstop owners have smoke alarms in every room of your house ? If not, why not ? You are far more likely to be injured or even killed by a house fire.

I also presume you and your families travel in cars with stability control and side curtain airbags. If not, why not ? You are far more likely to be injured or killed in an auto accident.

The list goes on, but I am sure you get my point. Of course if you feel that at some time in the future you are going to be stupid enough to plunge your hand into your saw then maybe it's a good investment:rolleyes:

[Time to don the fire suit I think]


I do have smoke and CO detectors outside every bedroom, as well as in the first floor, in our great room, and in the basement. And they're tied into heat detectors in the garage.

We do have side curtain airbags, stability control, AWD, and we enforce using seatbeelts and shoulder belts in every seat of each of our cars.

I also have full insurance coverage on the house and cars, well above the required minimums.

Why would I have all these things when I hope to never "need" them? because all it takes is **once** for a life changing disaster.

As far as being stupid - I know 2 people that have had TS accidents. One (my brother) happened at work, because someone plugged in the saw as he was working on it. Stupid, yes, but not my brother's stupidity.

The other was a guy I work with - accomplished woodworker, musician, engineer and and extremely smart person. He was making some cuts and admits he had a "momentary lapse" of concentration when he tried to clear a piece off the table. It literally grabbed his hand, sliced off the top of his thumb, and most of his index finger. I don't think he's been back to woodworking at all since.

I understand where you're coming from, I just don't agree. If I can spend some extra money for extra safety features in cars, and in my house, and elsewhere, then I should consider doing the same in the shop if I can afford it (big "if" !!).

[Peter Scoma]

Of course if you feel that at some time in the future you are going to be stupid enough to plunge your hand into your saw then maybe it's a good investment:rolleyes:



Right.......because thats how most TS accidents happen; people decide beforehand to cut off fingers and limbs.....:rolleyes:

The main point I extract from this thread is that TS accidents can happen even with the most experienced users, even when we are doing everything by the book. I have a 10x10 shop and a portable bosch TS but you can bet that when more room allows, i'll be getting a SS.

I can't really see any arguement against getting a SS.

PS

[J.R. Rutter]

I have 2 sawstops in my commercial shop. I just recently sold my last conventional table saw, a General 350. I have also run the Delta Unisaw and Powermatic 66. The Sawstop is a mixture of impressions, which isn't surprising given the American design and Chinese execution. The design is sound and the execution is above average.

I like the safety factor, and if you will ever have employees, then I agree with Per - There is no excuse not to have one of these. The ergonomics are good on the switch and fence.

The throat plate is a pain to remake, but you can do it.

I retrofit a dust collection shroud over the blade using the splitter that came with the saw. Otherwise dust collection is NOT good. It needs more flow than the 4" port can provide, and a sliding saw type shroud with top side DC port would be helpful.

I found that you can defeat the blade sensor to run things other than a 10" blade or 8" dado set. I threaded a small bolt into one of the holes and used it to mount a heavy copper wire run up near the arbor bolt. Obviously, this eliminates the safety factor, but I had to run my Magic Moulder head, like, now...

All in all, this is a smooth cutting, solid saw.

[Jeff Mohr]

The worst case scenario that comes to mind for me is the smart aleck kid in a school shop setting who deliberately tries to trip the SS brake only to find that he is the first statistic.


I hope that same kid doesn't take a rifle class and rely on the safety when he points the gun at someone. Or crashes a car just to see the airbags deploy.

Sure...there will be idiots out there but because they exist is no reason to prevent making things in safer.

If it is a bad saw, that is one thing. Being bad because it has a safety mechanism is entirely different.

And for the record, I do not own a SS and I do have all my fingers.

[Chris Padilla]

I retrofit a dust collection shroud over the blade using the splitter that came with the saw. Otherwise dust collection is NOT good. It needs more flow than the 4" port can provide, and a sliding saw type shroud with top side DC port would be helpful.

I wish TS manufacturers would wake up and start OFFERING larger openings in their saws for more efficient DC. Don't they even GLANCE at Oneida's websites or Bill Pentz's or ClearVue's??

JR, what kind of effort would it be to increase the dust shrouds opening to 6"? I haven't see their shroud so I have no clue what might be involved.

If going 6" round is difficult, might you be able to go with a different shape and still get the area of a 6" circle (which is ~28 sq. in.)? It would require, perhaps, an adapter or maybe just conforming the hose would be enough?

Can you post a pic of the dust shroud? I thought they used to have one up on their website but was unable to locate it.

[Joe Jensen]

I wish TS manufacturers would wake up and start OFFERING larger openings in their saws for more efficient DC. Don't they even GLANCE at Oneida's websites or Bill Pentz's or ClearVue's??

JR, what kind of effort would it be to increase the dust shrouds opening to 6"? I haven't see their shroud so I have no clue what might be involved.

If going 6" round is difficult, might you be able to go with a different shape and still get the area of a 6" circle (which is ~28 sq. in.)? It would require, perhaps, an adapter or maybe just conforming the hose would be enough?

Can you post a pic of the dust shroud? I thought they used to have one up on their website but was unable to locate it.

I have a SS and I'm pretty open to modifications. The isssue I don't see a solution for is the 4" flex hose inside the cabinet. I don't think a 5" flex hose would fit in the cabinet. One owner sent me a pic of his where he modified it to have a 6" into the base, and a 4" off the 6" to feed the shroud around the blade. I haven't obsessed too much as the overhead dust collection seems more important to me that the underneath. The SS stock catches most, and I vacuum the base out occasionally. I don't think any amount underneath would negate the need for overhead collection...joe

[David Cramer]

Chris said "If going 6" round is difficult, might you be able to go with a different shape and still get the area of a 6" circle (which is ~28 sq. in.)? It would require, perhaps, an adapter or maybe just conforming the hose would be enough?"


Chris, is this what you mean?

http://share.shutterfly.com/share/received/welcome.sfly?fid=53a04f701775bf94&sid=0EZNWblsxasnOQ

Not hard to do. I don't own a Saw Stop, as the pictures show, but if I did and it had a 4" port, I'd be changing that ASAP. Many say doing things like that will void the warranty, I say pooey:)!

David

[Joe Jensen]

Chris said "If going 6" round is difficult, might you be able to go with a different shape and still get the area of a 6" circle (which is ~28 sq. in.)? It would require, perhaps, an adapter or maybe just conforming the hose would be enough?"


Chris, is this what you mean?

http://share.shutterfly.com/share/received/welcome.sfly?fid=53a04f701775bf94&sid=0EZNWblsxasnOQ

Not hard to do. I don't own a Saw Stop, as the pictures show, but if I did and it had a 4" port, I'd be changing that ASAP. Many say doing things like that will void the warranty, I say pooey:)!

David

The SS has a cast iron shroud around the blade and there is a 4" port in the shroud. The shroud is less than 4" wide, and I'm not sure you could go larger without comprising the integrity of the shroud. No issue getting a 6" duct into the base, the problem is that I don't think a 6" or 5" flex hose will fit in the base of the saw to go from the inlet at the base to the bottom of the cast iron shroud.

[Cody Colston]

Seems to me that even a 6" outlet and blade shroud still wouldn't catch the dust coming off the top of the blade. I think only an overarm guard with a good dust collector would do that, especially when running ZCI's.

In fact, the 4" outlet on the cabinet may be better than 6" unless you have a monster DC. That way, you can have the DC pulling from both the cabinet and the top of the blade and get decent airflow through each.

I've thought many times about modifying my saw for a 6" DC outlet but each time, I come to the conclusion that it probably won't pick up much more than it does now.

I don't use an overarm guard but i'm considering one just for the improved dust collection.

[Joe Jensen]

Seems to me that even a 6" outlet and blade shroud still wouldn't catch the dust coming off the top of the blade. I think only an overarm guard with a good dust collector would do that, especially when running ZCI's.

In fact, the 4" outlet on the cabinet may be better than 6" unless you have a monster DC. That way, you can have the DC pulling from both the cabinet and the top of the blade and get decent airflow through each.

I've thought many times about modifying my saw for a 6" DC outlet but each time, I come to the conclusion that it probably won't pick up much more than it does now.

I don't use an overarm guard but i'm considering one just for the improved dust collection.

I concluded the same thing. I ended up getting a dust collection shroud for above the blade and I run with bottom and top collection now. No amount of suction on the table will get the chips that are created on the top of the board being cut.

[J.R. Rutter]

I think that modding the base for a larger port would be a pain, for me at least. I think that it would be nice to have a second 4" port in the base to keep it clear of dust that accumulates inside the cavity. A surprising amount gets past the shroud surrounding the blade. A great accessory would be a dust integrated blade guard that could attach to the stock splitter.

[Mike Heidrick]

I thought I read that there will be a sawstop splitter/guard with DC from sawstop? The Shark Guard works with the sawstop and their splitter is real nice.

I occassionally leave the DC powered on (turn the saw off) and just use a spray nozzle on my compressor and blow out the saw (remove the table insert). The DC sucks up whatever dust is left in the saw that gets blown around by the compressor. My air is dried coming off the compressor a foot or so. I do it maybe once a month and I have no issues with additional dust inside the saw. I also take that time to do a quick light waxing as well on the table top. Takes 10 minutes tops.

[Bill Keehn]

I concluded the same thing. I ended up getting a dust collection shroud for above the blade and I run with bottom and top collection now. No amount of suction on the table will get the chips that are created on the top of the board being cut.

Me too. I think that chips being thrown at the top of the cut require overhead collection. That's why I just got an Excalibur overhead guard.

I'm by no means an expert, but IMHO, having a 4" hose on the lower shroud is better in this case even without the overhead collection. The dust is being generated at a high velocity and in a compact place at the kerf. You want a higher velocity air stream even if it's a little bit lower volume, or it's likely you will only collect the dust that was kind enough to fall in.

The other day, while the DC was on, I removed the insert and blew a few pounds of dust out of the cabinet with compressed air. The dust flew in every direction inside the cabinet, but was eventually drawn into the DC. None of the visible dust escaped, and I can only assume the smaller dust was collected too, but I had the garage door open and the fan running just in case.

I can't see how 6" hose on the shroud could make it work better. I think running 6" to the cabinet is a good idea to reduce static pressure loss if you are afraid of overworking your DC, but I haven't done that yet. It's on my list.

[Bill Keehn]

Oh, in case you were wondering why there was so much dust in the cabinet.. there is a handy little door on the side of the shroud to make changing blades easier. Sometimes I forget to close it :o. It makes a big difference.

[Bill Keehn]

I think that modding the base for a larger port would be a pain, for me at least. I think that it would be nice to have a second 4" port in the base to keep it clear of dust that accumulates inside the cavity. A surprising amount gets past the shroud surrounding the blade. A great accessory would be a dust integrated blade guard that could attach to the stock splitter.

J.R., for some reason I didn't see your post or Mike's before I posted.

Like I said, it seems to work much better if the shroud door is closed. You want to make sure you don't seal the vents in the cabinet with tape like some folks do, otherwise you interfere with the airflow in the cabinet. You won't get enough airflow through your insert to effectively collect dust.

No matter what, dust does eventually accumulate inside the cabinet. You could make modifications to clear dust from the bottom of your cabinet but why bother? That dust isn't hurting anything is it? The stuff you really need to get is under your insert, around your brake cartridge and on your trunion gears or other moving parts. I also clean the dust that sticks to the underside of the table. I fear the dust will absorb moisture and enventually cause rust on the unpained surfaces.

Like Mike, I use compressed air. Blowing the cabinet base out only takes a moment or two. It's also kinda fun ;).

[John Thompson]

You can drill holes in a ZCI but.. no need to as they get covered by the piece of stock being cut. I run a 6" cyclone pipe direct from the cyclone into the bottom of my Steel City 5 HP and it will still leave saw-dust and chips top-side. Well.. until I added my own over-head shield and connected to a separate and dedicated Shop Vac 2 1/2" line that sits under the right extention table.

Sarge..

[Chris Padilla]

I fully agree about have DC in the cabinet of the saw AND on top of the saw. In conjunction, they do work very well together.

I'm still of firm belief that a 6" opening with a decent DC will be much better than a 4" opening.

My set up right now is I've cut the little TS cabinet door to increase it from 4" to 6".

I have a PSI overarm guard/dc into which I currently have my Rigid shop vac connected to assit with dust coming from the top. I plan to increase this to 4" and run it off my DC but who knows when that will happen. For now, this is working okay...not perfect but better than not having above table DC.

John,

Not all cuts on a TS cover up the ZCI. I've been trimming 1/32-1/16" off of veneered-up MDF panels and I can tell you it creates major dust. The PSI handles most of it but I think if there were holes in the ZCI, it would help capture more of it. I got the idea of this by noticing that the insert plate (ZCI if you will) in my Minimax bandsaw is basically plastic with a buncha holes in it. It certainly helps to capture the dust so I thought, "Why not on the TS, too?"

[John Thompson]

John,

Not all cuts on a TS cover up the ZCI. I've been trimming 1/32-1/16" off of veneered-up MDF panels and I can tell you it creates major dust. The PSI handles most of it but I think if there were holes in the ZCI, it would help capture more of it. I got the idea of this by noticing that the insert plate (ZCI if you will) in my Minimax bandsaw is basically plastic with a buncha holes in it. It certainly helps to capture the dust so I thought, "Why not on the TS, too?"


I drilled holes in my ZCI on my 18" BS and it does does help as most of the re-saw that goes through won't cover all of it unless is is really thick stock standing on edge. So.. I tried it with the TS insert and it really made little difference. If the over-head was not running... it helps a little as after the stock clears it will pick up around the holes to some degree.

But.. with my over-head on there is little for it to pick up as it has already been swept down by the teeth and gullets and the cabinet cyclone got it or picked up from over-head as I intentionally connected the port on the shield to my crown guard so it is almost directly over the front downward cutting teeth.

So... IMO.. it won't hurt but it really didn't add anything significant that would lead me to believe it helped. Then again.. many don't have over-head and it would help a little with any dust left near the holes I suppose.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Chris Padilla]

I drilled holes in my ZCI on my 18" BS and it does does help as most of the re-saw that goes through won't cover all of it unless is is really thick stock standing on edge. So.. I tried it with the TS insert and it really made little difference. If the over-head was not running... it helps a little as after the stock clears it will pick up around the holes to some degree.

But.. with my over-head on there is little for it to pick up as it has already been swept down by the teeth and gullets and the cabinet cyclone got it or picked up from over-head as I intentionally connected the port on the shield to my crown guard so it is almost directly over the front downward cutting teeth.

So... IMO.. it won't hurt but it really didn't add anything significant that would lead me to believe it helped. Then again.. many don't have over-head and it would help a little with any dust left near the holes I suppose.

Regards...

Sarge..

Did you seal up other "air entrances" into your TS when you tried this? I think the air needs to be focused for this spot in order for it to work well. Now, of course, if you seal up your saw TOO well, it may not work very well either. I think the goal would be to match the area of openings to the area of your DC pipe (4" dia or 6" dia) connected under your saw.

[Kent Cartwright]

Tony:

I purchased a Sawstop 1 year ago. I am a hobbiest, but I use the equipment often and consistently. I purchased the 3 hp, and am happy with my decision. I have ripped 8/4 maple and oak without a problem, at least not a problem that I noticed. The SS was an upgrade from one of the higher end Craftsman saws, where I had gotten quite used to adjusting my feed rate by the sound of the motor. I probably still do that, but I don't notice it if I do.

I am happy with the fit, finish, setup, instructions, and overall professionalism encounted with this purchase. This thing was such an incredible step up from what I have used before. Having learned to tune a tablesaw from owning a long string of Craftsman TS's, I am confident I can attest this saw was perfect out of the box. The riving knife is awesome, as is the ease of removing it and/or swapping it for the blade guard/splitter. Holy cow, is it easy and fast! The blade height and angle adjustments are sooooo smmmooooth!! Heck, I played with those two things for 10 minutes after I first set the saw up! I couldn't believe I could adjust either with the power of one pinky!

The hardest things I found to adjust to were: 1) the startup on the saw is not instantaneous. There is a pause of about 15 seconds while the software does a functions check. 2) Changing a new blade for a resharpened blade can take a few minutes longer, as you have to check the gap between the blade and the brake cartridge. Adjustment is easy with an allen wrench and a nickel. Its just different. 3) Switching to a dadoe set takes a bit longer, as you have to swap out brake cartridges and set the gap. These items are not hard, just different.

Things I did not like or am not able to comment on: I did not get the SS fence, opting for the Incra. (I'm not sure if I would do that again.) I am not happy with the 4" dust collector fitting, wishing they had instead installed a 6" fitting and maybe included a reducer for those who need it. I am not happy with the accessory wing-top. I can make one for less than I paid, and probably have just as many problems getting it to attach to the saw. These are minor annoyances, and in no way detract from my feelings on buying this saw.

My decision to go SS was a deliberate one. Being a professional bean counter (CFO for a school district), I am pretty tight with my pennies, and I could easily have purchased two, or even three, needed pieces of equipment for the price I paid for a SS. Still, the decision was relatively easy. I am attached to my fingers and I like it that way.

I am human, and as such, I am not perfect. That means that no matter how much training, or how much good form I use at that piece of equipment, I can still make a mistake. Since the price for this mistake could result in amputation, and an amputation may cause me to be significantly impaired in my work, I went with the safest tool I could find. There is no excuse I could make to my family if I had to explain I lost my job because of an injury sustained on a HOBBY piece of equipment that I had been too cheap to buy the safest version of.

As to the arguments I see consistently made in most SS threads, these are my thoughts and opinions, with all due respect to those who hold opposing viewpoints. I don't know if the metal is a softer metal than some other saw. I do know that the metal still hurts when I run into it! I don't know if the motor is a better motor than company XYZ's motor. I know that SS backs up their product with a pretty nice warrenty. I realize that I may have to do the repair work, but what other options do you have with ANY tablesaw? I really don't know the answer to this. Do any of the other tablesaw manufacturers send a tech out to the house to fix a problem under warrenty? I highly doubt that. I know the inventor tried to use government intervention to help his business along. I can point to dozens of other companies that have done the same, for similiar reasons. I don't think it makes any of them criminals. I don't agree with some of Walmart's policies, but I shop there anyway because the value outweighs the cost in my mind.

I do not look differently at someone simply due to the equipment they may or may not own. The most outstanding woodworker I know the most motley, unsafe, and highly modified collection of tools one has ever seen. It is what he is comfortable with, and what he can afford. Owning the SS does not give me the skills or ability to produce the fine art that he makes. It just makes sure I don't have to look for chunks of my fingers on the floor of my shop some weekend while trying.

Good luck in your decision!

Kent

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Tony:

I purchased a Sawstop 1 year ago. I am a hobbiest, but I use the equipment often and consistently. I purchased the 3 hp, and am happy with my decision. I have ripped 8/4 maple and oak without a problem, at least not a problem that I noticed. The SS was an upgrade from one of the higher end Craftsman saws, where I had gotten quite used to adjusting my feed rate by the sound of the motor. I probably still do that, but I don't notice it if I do.....

Kent - well said!!! I hope you enjoy your saw.

[Tony Scolaro]

Thanks Kent
That is a well thought out view. I needed to hear just what you said about the adjustment to the new saw. I am very safe also and also human. I finally saw the Demo videos and cynical ole me can be impressed. I have a rule (written down no less) don't be fooled or distracted by shiny objects. It was quite unbelievable. I just don't want to be fiddling or fighting the technology. If it serves me I will be pleased. I have to let a buddy know if my pm 66 is going to be living with him or not. We have agreed on price but I have been in holding pattern.
I toy with keeping the PM 66 too but that is a little weird. To top it off tomorrow a Hammond Glider is going to arrive that I have bought it is a super super accurate saw with sliding table that was originally used in print trade with about a 6" blade on it. So things are a little out of control but soon it will all settle in place. Thanks again. Tony

[John Thompson]

Did you seal up other "air entrances" into your TS when you tried this? I think the air needs to be focused for this spot in order for it to work well. Now, of course, if you seal up your saw TOO well, it may not work very well either. I think the goal would be to match the area of openings to the area of your DC pipe (4" dia or 6" dia) connected under your saw.

Been there and done all that, Chis. I sealed what little needed to be sealed on this Steel City 5 HP (on my former Uni-saw there are many areas that need to be sealed as if you don't it will literally spew saw-dust from evey nook and cranny) but left the tilt mechanism open to allow air through.

Keep in mind I have opened the cabinet base with a 6" diameter hole for a 6" port I replaced the 4" with. The saw MUST have the same amount of opening in sq. inches as the 6" diameter pipe coming in or you can burn the motor up on the cyclone. And I am sure that is what you were referring to by not sealing too well.

I used and old racing trick and added some duct covering various amounts of that hole. I still saw no significant difference as my set-up leaves only fragments of saw-dust without the holes. So.. with no change I could detect. I pulled off the tape to assure I got enough opening to not harm the cyclone and the next time I built a set of 6 ZCI's from scrap ply, I simply didn't bother to drill holes as again... I saw no significance in doing it with the current set-up I have below and above.

Sarge..

[Kevin Groenke]

I increased the DC fitting to the ss cabinet base to a 5", the 4" hose to the blade shroud is unchanged, the additional opening serves simply to reduce the dust/chip build-up in the cabinet base.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=836014&postcount=1

I also made a vinyl deflector which hangs from the tabletop (magnets) at the rt side of the shroud to direct chips into the correct opening. Most of the chips that escape the shroud seem to do so right in front of the blade (where they tend to gunk up the elevation and tilt mechanisms): I heard that SS was working on ways to improve deflection here, but haven't seen anything yet.

The opening in the cabinet has all but eliminated the need to occasionally clear out the cabinet base: The motor hasn't bottomed out on a pile of chips since I made the change. A sloped floor would make this even better. I may change this to a square opening that's level with the bottom of the cabinet.

Overall DC at the source seems unchanged by the modified cabinet opening, a dc port on the beismeyer guards would be nice, but I'm reluctant to make things too complicated when we're trying to get 100's of students using equipment consistently. It only seems REALLY bad when trimming an edge in which case most of the chips seem to stay above the tabletop. In my experience, dcers seem ineffective when choked down enough to to attach to a blade guard, maybe a dedicated, tool triggered-vac would be better?

-kg

[David Giles]

Having upgraded a Sawstop to a 6" port, you are correct. The larger port and air flow don't pick up dust from the top of the blade. But a broom will work. The upgrade does increase dust collection from inside the cabinet.

[J.R. Rutter]

Like I said, it seems to work much better if the shroud door is closed. You want to make sure you don't seal the vents in the cabinet with tape like some folks do, otherwise you interfere with the airflow in the cabinet. You won't get enough airflow through your insert to effectively collect dust.

No matter what, dust does eventually accumulate inside the cabinet. You could make modifications to clear dust from the bottom of your cabinet but why bother? That dust isn't hurting anything is it? The stuff you really need to get is under your insert, around your brake cartridge and on your trunion gears or other moving parts. I also clean the dust that sticks to the underside of the table. I fear the dust will absorb moisture and enventually cause rust on the unpained surfaces.

Like Mike, I use compressed air. Blowing the cabinet base out only takes a moment or two. It's also kinda fun ;).

That little door slams shut as soon as I open the blast gate so I never bother to close it ;-)

I recently sold a General 350 that we had set up as a rip station with power feeder. I had a shroud on the feeder that had a 4" DC hose, plus a 4" port under the saw tied to a custom sheet metal insert that directed all sawdust down to the port. There was very little dust topside. The feeder shroud was like an overarm DC/guard. When we loaded the guy's van, close to a bushel of sawdust came out of the various nooks and crannies underneath.

The Sawstop has the mag switch contactor mounted on the bottom of the cabinet. It is sealed, but I still don't like the idea of it getting covered with sawdust.

For commercial use, like the OP asked about, I would prefer a DC setup that 1. Got dust on the top of the table (source capture), and 2. Kept the cabinet from filling up (dust collection). I do like that the shroud keeps the trunnions and screws clean, but too much slips past. A 4" port seems to be too small to keep the internals clean with a normal DC. (although for a time, I had a high pressure, low volume blower that sucked that General's cabinet clean as a whistle.)

[Mike Wellner]

Hey Tony,

You've probably seen my posts, but for some background: We've had 2 of the first 50 SS's shipped in a collegiate student shop since 12/04. The saws have not been without issue, but I've never regretted the purchase. If I had expected the saws to be perfect, I may have been disappointed. I've spent over $200,000 on equipment in the past 8 years and I can't think of a single unit that hasn't had any issues or has been absolutely satisfactory.

It seems to me you may be setting yourself up for disappointment here Tony: If you pull the trigger, it seems you may have buyers remorse if ANYTHING goes wrong with the machine.

The absence of service centers has never been a concern for me. I basically expect that we'll be servicing all of the tools in the shop and I think it's important to have a working knowledge of machine design and the technical aptitude to troubleshoot/repair/rebuild equipment. I'm too cheap to pay for a service call and it's not like I'm going to disassemble a tablesaw w/extension, outfeed and sliding tables to take it in to have a motor replaced or a switch fixed. Perhaps some higher end equipment has on site service agreements, but that doesn't apply to anything except the digital equipment in our shop.

SS's tech support has been phenomenal, they've talked me through a number processes and have even sent video of the swap of the elevation helical gears. We've been out of warranty for years and we still haven't paid for any of the repair parts they've sent us. We got a control station a couple months ago, we didn't pay for it, but SS's list price for it is $120, I'd guess Delta would charge AT LEAST $300 for a similar part, so it's good to know that SS isn't killing it's customers with parts sales.

I wouldn't characterize SS as having rigid protocols. Sure, they don't want people overiding the proximity detection mechanism in order to run a moulding head and advise against reusing blades after they've been stopped, but I haven't heard of any advice they've given that sounds unreasonable. I've spoken with them more than a dozen times, and I've never felt they were dictating specific use or procedures.

SS's long term business viability is anything but certain, but I don't think I'd be any more surprised if Delta went belly up than if SS does. Regardless, I'm pretty confident that there are enough SS's out there that parts will be available even if the company itself doesn't make it. If I found out that the future was questionable, I might stock up on cartridges and buy an extra control station, those are really the only unique parts that are likely to need replacement. If the brakes become unavailable, it's a 30 minute job to rewire the saw to operate conventionally.

We haven't had an unexplained trigger in years: of 15+ triggers we've had, only 2 had an unclear cause, I think I didn't get the whole story on those incidents since I wasn't in the shop when either occurred.

Our saws are 5HP, 1PH, both motors were replaced under warranty due to stationary switch failure. I repaired the failed switches, so I actually have 2 back-up motors. I haven't run a 3hp, so I don't know how it compares, generally 3hp is plenty of motor in a TS if you use decent tooling in good condition. I got the 5hp simply because they were only $100 more. I do think the 5 hp rating may be a bit generous.

We have pretty stable power and I think even a line conditioner, so I can't directly speak to that question, but I only recall one discussion of power irregularities causing problems. I seem to remember one particular user that blamed their wrist watch for some issues though I don't recall exactly how that come out. If your power situation is particularly unusual, you might ask SS about any likely problems.

That's about all I've got to offer, ask questions if you've got 'em.

g'luck
-kg


Bemidji State went to SawStops

[dave rave]

We have two tablesaws at the school I work at, a mid-90's unisaw and a 1+ year old sawstop. Comparing the two, this is my take.
The sawstop is a clearly better made machine. Bigger, stronger, quieter, easier to adjust...and a lot more expensive. So it should be bigger, quieter, etc. The riving knife is nice, not perfect, but way better than the aftermarket Biesemeyer we put on the unisaw. I do think the top is a bit softer than the unisaw, but that hasn't been a problem. Basically Delta, and everybody else, sat on their hands selling a decades-old design while sawstop hurdled them. Now folks are playing catch-up (see: the new unisaw).
So would I buy a sawstop for myself? Probably not, and this is why.
We had a new instructor at the school using the sawstop one day in class. He knew how to use it and everything was going fine until it stopped in the middle of a cut. He had no idea what was going on, the lights were all going nuts. Did he bump the paddle switch? Possibly, happens to me on crosscuts a lot. Was the blade too far away from the brake pawl causing a loss of circuit? Possibly. Could it have been something else? Definitely.
Regardless, he had to keep the class moving and so he moved the students to the unisaw since he didn't have time to figure out what was going on. And moments later we had the very first and still only injury of our woodshop. The student dragged her thumb across the blade reaching for her offcut. She didn't lose anything, but needed stitches, whatnot.
So shouldn't this make me want the darn thing more?
After having to go through the manual to try to figure out what happened and avoid a repeat, I concluded that when the instructor swapped blades from combo to rip he hadn't recalibrated the pawl to the nickel gap. This led to the saw not registering a proper circuit and reading error. Was I right? Who knows, since the technology is inscrutable.
If I am switching back and forth among blades it is way too fussy of a system. If I can get by with just a combo blade, set it and forget it, I'm fine. But if I want to jump around, some new blades full 10", some resharpened to <10", maybe a dado from time to time, I'm gonna get annoyed at having to recalibrate the pawl each time.
So what I'm trying to say is that the sawstop is great if it fits your work style and temperment. It is a well made tool and quite nice to use and I certainly think every school should have one. I can also totally understand why businesses would switch for insurance purposes. And if you can set up dedicated sawstops for dedicated blades/tasks, then it probably works great. It just doesn't fit my situation where I have one saw, many blades/tasks.

I just hope I am never forced to reevaluate my position.

[Homer Faucett]

If I am switching back and forth among blades it is way too fussy of a system. If I can get by with just a combo blade, set it and forget it, I'm fine. But if I want to jump around, some new blades full 10", some resharpened to <10", maybe a dado from time to time, I'm gonna get annoyed at having to recalibrate the pawl each time.


That does take a little bit of getting used to, but I honestly don't see it taking more than an additional 90 seconds to switch out the blades. I keep a nickel in the shop, adjust the aluminum brake distance by setting the nickel on the brake and adjusting the right direction, and then close it up. That's just my take. The first two or three times are learning attempts, and will take a little bit of time (but not much).

In the interest of full disclosure, though, I do not have the dado blades and cartrige, so I cannot speak to that.

[dave rave]

I certainly agree that the adjustment doesn't take very long, and that it is something that once you learn how to do, takes even less time. I just felt it was important to point out that it is a necessary aspect of using this saw, the extra step involved every time you swap blades.
I just like to keep working when I am in a groove and I find that the adjustment somewhat takes me out of what I'm doing. Perhaps that is a good thing sometimes, for example the one time I put a TS blade on backwards (not on the sawstop, years ago). Couldn't figure out why I was getting so much burning!
Anyway, as I said, it is a very good saw and I do enjoy cutting with it.

[Kevin Groenke]

We change our blades frequently and adjust the gap only in extreme instances. Generally we back the blade ~1/8" from a NEW 10" blade and forget about it. Last week we had a 7-1/4" blade ~3/8" from the 8" dado brake and it worked just fine.

We have never used the "nickel" method to set the blade brake gap. Setting by eye or moving the brake forward incrementally until there is no error message works fine for us.

-kg

[Ted Baca]

I will mostly echo what has been said but feel a need to chime in anyway. I have owned my SS 3HP for about 2 1/2 yrs and told myself when I bought it that the safety features were extra. That they were not a part of the decision. And I fell much more confident when I say that today. I bought the SS based on it's build quality and it's design features non-related to the safety brake. The stops for angle are easily found and adjusted. The table top can be aligned to the blade very easily. The vibration of a running saw is non existant. The power of the 3hp motor has never caused me to wish it was 5. The ease of raising or tilting the blade is a bonus feel of smooth quallity. I realize that coming off a Sears Contractor is like a transition of a Pinto to a Porsche, but the saw has been one of the most impulsive, expensive decisions I have ever made on a tool. I started out with a 1000.00 budget and was going to buy the Jet Hybrid. I then realized the features I wanted took me into Powermatic and Unisaw range. So I readjusted my bankbook's toy allowance. Then I started looking at the SS. Yikes now I was out a planer, jointer and other tools I needed. My point is I never ever look back. I turn on that saw make my cut and after 2 1/2 yrs I still confirm my decision was the right one. Hey I am single so that speaks to my ability to make commitments. I can't date for more than 6 months!
As far as SS not surviving the current economy? Will Jet, Powermatic, Delta, General...? No one has that crystal ball. Hey I gotta beleive that if they start to fail, someone will buy them. Too many have been sold. The other companies will want that business and have to realize that the demographic that the SS has created will not go away. And if they do fail, as one other post mentions the saw can be rewired to bypass the safety brake. A motor just requires a switch and direct wire. If the motor fails a bracket can be modified. The rest is steel and welders or machinists can do just about anything. And as a side note I waited about 18 months for SS to come out with their mobile base. Again I would have been disapointed with anything else. The hydraulic lift is so easy and it is built so well that 300.00 is a bargain. I say buy the saw, if you are considering it, you will always wish you had. If I had bought any of the other saws I looked at,
and know what I know now about the SS. I'd be trying to sell and upgrade.