LN Panel Saw update...

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

I emailed Lie Nielsen the other day about the rumors of a panel saw. I received a nice reply which included a couple prototype pics, which I've attached. I'm not sure what changes the final release will have, if any. He just mentioned they are prototype pics.

He did say to expect to see it on the website in the next month or so. As for pricing, I didn't ask and he didn't say. I would imagine around $200 since the 14 inch tenon saw goes for $175.

It's taken them awhile to find a good supplier of quality panel steel, but they are confident in who they are working with.

I'm personally a bit excited for the saw. I've been wanting a good quality crosscut saw for the shop. My chopsaw doesn't have a dedicated bench setup, due to my shops small size. Needless to say it is much quicker and easier to grab the handsaw and rough down the longer 12 and 14 footer board lengths I got from the mill. Plus, I just love the look, feel, and capability of a quality handtood. My $20 Stanley saw will finally take a back hook on the shelf. :)

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[mike holden]

You know, that looks amazingly like Adam Cherubini's saw(s).
Adam was situated right across from Lie-Nielsen at WIA - Hmmmm!
You think maybe? Naw, Adam wouldnt sell out, would he?
He may have convinced Tom that he had a "better idea" though.
Mike

[Andrew Homan]

Adam was situated right across from Lie-Nielsen at WIA - Hmmmm! You think maybe? Naw, Adam wouldnt sell out, would he? He may have convinced Tom that he had a "better idea" though.

Mike -
LN has been working toward a panel saw for years. I think that there might even be an early prototype in a Rob Cosman video from years ago.
-Andy

[David Keller NC]

"I'm personally a bit excited for the saw. I've been wanting a good quality crosscut saw for the shop."

Interesting - I've personally liked my L-N backsaws, though in some instances I prefer a British antique backsaw that's a good deal heavier. One note is that the picture you've posted is a saw filed with a rip tooth, though I'd expect L-N to come out with both a cross-cut and a rip cut at the same time.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

"I'm personally a bit excited for the saw. I've been wanting a good quality crosscut saw for the shop."

Interesting - I've personally liked my L-N backsaws, though in some instances I prefer a British antique backsaw that's a good deal heavier. One note is that the picture you've posted is a saw filed with a rip tooth, though I'd expect L-N to come out with both a cross-cut and a rip cut at the same time.


I too have both a crosscut and rip backsaw from LN, and the LN dovetail saw of course. I should have been more specific and said I was excited for a LN crosscut panel saw. The carcass saws are just more suited for joinery IMO.

I know there are a couple good mfg's of panel saws out there, but once I heard LN had one, i figured i'd hold out. I have my great grandfather's Disston, but its in rip tooth config - i need crosscut. I thought about buying another old Disston, but they are hard to come by in decent shape.

Oh well, my cheap stanley works just fine i suppose - but surely you folks out there can understand wanting a nice handsaw.

[Jim Nardi]

But Rob Cosman had thier first prototypes more than 5 years ago. I'd bet they are going to sell for close to 300 bucks. There seems to be quite a few people around selling full sized saw's these days. I wonder how much market for them will be.

[Alan DuBoff]

He did say to expect to see it on the website in the next month or so. As for pricing, I didn't ask and he didn't say. I would imagine around $200 since the 14 inch tenon saw goes for $175.
Not for nothing, but that price is pretty ambitious considering the cost of steel these days.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

Not for nothing, but that price is pretty ambitious considering the cost of steel these days.


You're unfortunately probably right. Time will tell. Hopefully it won't be pushing the $300 mark as others have said. If so, I'll certainly not be ordering it right out of the gate.

That's actually a rediculous price...especially when LN is selling a 5lb. ductile iron handplane for that money.

I'll speculate 225 - 250. Shall we place bets? :) Come on dowwwn, you're the next contestant!!!!!! Ahhh...bob barker and his assistants.

[David Keller NC]

"You're unfortunately probably right. Time will tell. Hopefully it won't be pushing the $300 mark as others have said. If so, I'll certainly not be ordering it right out of the gate.

That's actually a rediculous price...especially when LN is selling a 5lb. ductile iron handplane for that money."

Just a thought, but I doubt the cost of materials is a significant fraction of the price. Lie-Nielsen is also fortunate in that they can charge a premium for their name, probably brought about by a 28 year history of tools of supreme quality. Even in a really bad economy where one cannot really sell anything for a significant fraction of the purchase price, their tools usually fetch 80% of the price of a new tool, which in some cases actually means turning a profit for the seller, since they bought it years ago before cost increases.

One example of their marketing power is the inlay tool sets they came out with a year and a half ago - it took them well over 8 months to catch up on the enormous demand, despite the fact that these tools are relatively easy to make for the woodworker with just a bit of skill.

[Alan DuBoff]

You're unfortunately probably right. Time will tell. Hopefully it won't be pushing the $300 mark as others have said. If so, I'll certainly not be ordering it right out of the gate.
I want everyone here to understand something. No matter how simple one thinks saws are to build, there is a certainly amount of time, skill, and labor to produce them.

I have felt for quite a while that handsaws are much to inexpensive, and for a quality tool folks should understand that a certain amount of work needs to be done.

I'm not sure if you have priced any panel saws from Wenzloff & Sons, but honestly, I feel that Mike's prices are low.

The bottom line is this...it takes a certain amount of time to craft a quality saw, and if you calculate a moderate labor cost, the price will jump up quickly.

The best things sells Mike's panel saws for close to $300. That is a more than fair price for a panel saw, IMO, and would suggest Mike raise his prices. :rolleyes:

I have noticed that Mike removed prices from his web page, and I think that's good, he deserves to sell his saws for more, because they are worth more. Mike and his sons make quality tools, and it's getting harder and harder to find quality tools these days.

Andrew Lunn's price increases were pretty realistic, IMO, and shows that many handsaw makers today are under charging for their goods, Mike Wenzloff included.

My guess is that LN will need to charge at least $250-$275 to be competitive, but in reality $300-$350 is a more realistic price for a panel saw. My $0.02.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

That's great you all are into pulling my comments apart and for some reason feel compelled to convince me that saws are expensive and time consuming to build and should cost more than they do. I have quite a few LN tools and due to the business I'm in understand the relationship between quality and price just as much if not more than some people on the forum.

The reason I started this thread was simply an informative, "Hey, LN is finally able to bring their panel saw to the market within the next month or so. And here are some pics to go along with it..."

[lowell holmes]

I have a 10 point crosscut Disston that is a D23. The saw performs well. I have the same backsaws you have, so I understand about a saw that stays in its kerf and cuts straight. It is an Ebay saw.

I also have a 10 point Craftsman that I had converted to a rip tooth. It is a hollow ground saw made about 50-60 years ago. It does very ell and is a joy to use. I can cut cross grain with it.

I don't think these saws are a good as a Wenzloff or a LN would be, but there is not a lot of money in them.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I suspect that Alan and other are right that the saws will sell above $200. We have to remember that L-N sells the majority of their tools to dealers who also have to make a profit. Most wholesale prices for hard goods offer the dealer between a 30-40% gross margin with accessory items going for much more. Looking at the tongue on the handle I suspect there is a fair bit of work that is done by hand or with sophisticated jigs and CNC routers so that is a factor too. The strength or weakness of their profitability stands or falls more on efficient production techniques than on the proice of materials. Remember that they are a target account for many specialty metals suppliers and get far better pricing than out of a MSC or McMaster-Carr catalog.

[Pedro Reyes]

Alan,

You have, in a bit of authoritarian way, stated that panel saws should be in the $300-$350 range. I will assume you have not only made and sold several saws, improved your manufacturing, optimized quality and throughput, but in addition surveyed the market. I am not in that market.

I am not comfortable with this practice of thrusting upon everyone the idea that for a product to be good it has to be expensive. I have 3 LN backsaws, amazing, love them, I also have 4 old disstons 2 of them amazing. I have not tried the LV Dovetail saw, but I get the feeling it will be superb, just like their planes.

But it is not "expensive", how did they do it?

/p

PS: (opinion only) 30% is in my opinion too much profit for a dealer, if the actual manufacturer is getting less that is unfair.

saws should be priced at whatever price-point makes them the most money, not the biggest profit margin.

[Joel Moskowitz]

I have a 10 point crosscut Disston that is a D23. The saw performs well. I have the same backsaws you have, so I understand about a saw that stays in its kerf and cuts straight. It is an Ebay saw.

I also have a 10 point Craftsman that I had converted to a rip tooth. It is a hollow ground saw made about 50-60 years ago. It does very ell and is a joy to use. I can cut cross grain with it.

I don't think these saws are a good as a Wenzloff or a LN would be, but there is not a lot of money in them.

Why not? The Disston is properly taper ground,polished, tensioned, correctly hardened and tempered. If you get it properly sharpened it will work brilliantly. (don't know about craftsman one way or another). The newer saws will have fancier handles, but will the actual metalwork be better? newer sure, but as long as the teeth are correctly filed, better?

[Martin Cash]

Why don't we all just wait and see where LN decides to price these.
The rest is simply speculation.
Happy sawing
MC

[george wilson]

Strange coincidence,and it is just a coincedence,in 1992 I made 2 saws exactly the same pattern as the new LN. Dave Anderson,perhaps you saw them hanging near my desk when you visited my shop. The handle is just a copy of an old Disston pattern,not a new design. The only difference is that My saws do not have the medalion. I even used curly maple,and colored the handle very similarly. I'm pretty sure LN never saw my saws,though during woodworking forums,we did have quite a few people come through the shop.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Actually George, I do not remember. Stangely enough my focus while going through the shop was on the machine tools and the various jigs and setups. At the time I was really curious about the equipment and the methodology used in reproducing 18th century tools in the 21st century. My purient interest was piqued such that I was already scheming on how I could get the folks at my day job to purchase more equipment that I could use on weekends in the tool and die shop at work.:D

[lowell holmes]

The old Craftsman saw is equal to the Disston according to Circle Saw in Houston. They converted the saw to a rip pattern. (Shades of Tage Frid). It is a taper ground saw. Circle saw will sharpen the saws for $6. They come back with new looking teeth. The saws are sharpened on a machine. After I adjust the set, they do really well. The Disston cost me less than $20 (EBay) and the Craftsman was inherited.

[george wilson]

Dave,if it is still there,on the Fine Woodworking website,there is a video of how Jon and I cut the throats for the multitude (it seemed to us) of wooden planes we made for the Historic area. I invented a way to use the slotting attachment for the Bridgeport milling machine to efficiently cut the throats. It left only straight,chisel cut marks (being a chisel) and no router marks,which was well. We used power tools where we could,but always went over surfaces in appropriate ways to eliminate any modern tool or cutter markings.Since Our mission was to produce tools for about 80 craftsmen,and we were not demonstrating our trade to the public in an 18th.C. setting,we used whatever means we could invent to meet our goal. A visiting tool collector who had been in Germany said that the Ulmia planes were made in a similar way,except that 2 chisels came down,alternating,in a purpose built machine.

I left the blades of my 2 panel saws blue. Always thought it was so pretty,and my blades had the notch at the end. Handles were remarkably similar,though.

[Mitch Mitchel]

He did say to expect to see it on the website in the next month or so. ]


They have been saying that for 3 years. I have seen this saw at the Woodworking Shows every year they say the same thing.

Also at their own hand tool events show, they have displayed "prototypes" of other products that "Should be available in the next few months"

Remember the honing guides they showed 2 years ago?
The Tongue and groove cutter?
The chamfer plane?
I think there were some more too - I'd have to search old posts...

They make great products, but they sure can't figure out when they will be available for sale.

Kinda the exact opposite approach from Lee Valley - Rob tells that he has new products on the way, but we usually don't get to see them untill they are available for sale.

So I wouldn't hold your breath on this saw either.:(


Mitch

[Mike Brady]

Dave raises an interesting question when he says "L-N sell the majority of it tools to dealers...". I wonder if that is true. They sell a lot of tools direct, at full retail. The only large wholesale account that I can think of is Woodcraft. All of the others are small independents. I wouldn't be surprised if they sell more units direct than at wholesale. That means excellent margins, if they can make money selling at wholesale prices.

[Clay Thigpen]

It's funny I was looking at the Wenzloff saws and several others,( plane obsession check, saw obsession check), looking for a half back saw that I saw in PWW and I was knocked out by the prices for them. Now, from my point of view if I can get an old one that I can make work for cheap I will, that's just the way I look at things, but these things are a work of art really and I'd love to have the Seaton collection in my own till (there's just something about the way they look) but that's not going to happen anytime soon, and after seeing Alan and George's posts about saws as well as other sites I'm very tempted to have a go at making my own.

I really do hope that LN comes out with this sometime soon as I'd like to know where my best value is. I can say this much as soon as the wallet allows I plan on making a Wenzloff part of my collection.

[John Keeton]

...30% is in my opinion too much profit for a dealer, if the actual manufacturer is getting less that is unfair
Pedro, there will be a few exceptions such as businesses that have various oppressive protections like Wal-Mart. But, let me assure that in nearly all instances, unless a business has a gross profit margin of at least 32%, it will not survive. It simply takes more than that to offer good selection, good service, and make enough bottom line to justify the cost and risk of running a business.

Of the strictly wholesale manufacturers with which we dealt, the best ones, and the most successful, were the ones that recognized the need for their retail "partners" to make a good profit. LN is in a little different situation as they have other supply lines to the public, including direct sale.

Retail is a tough business - I had my fill, and will never - let me repeat that - NEVER do it again!