Euro Hinge Dilemma I need help on

[Craig D Peltier]

Hi, Im looking for help on a inset hinge.Ive attached a PDF drawing of my problem. 108572
I have a cabinet with a face frame , the overhang of frame doesnt allow enough room to use those fancy face frame hinges that screw into the back of overhang so Im using a 55856 hinge from rocklers site but its only 95 degree not 170 ( i buy my hinges from ww hardware).
My problem is : The frame overhangs 3/16. So I built out a base for the hinge clip to mount on so its flush. Tried to clip on to the hinge clip with the door, but the angle was too steep to get it to clip. So I backed off screws and let plate dangle and connected it that way. Problem was when door was shut it was tight against the face frame no gap with the hinge adjusted all the way out.
So I then thought well if I build out the hinge base to 1/16th over the face frame protrusion then it will be a 1/16 the gap. Doesnt work that way.
Now looking at directions it says drill 35mm hole 22.5mm in from edge. I measured my hole and it was 19.5ish mm in. It doesnt look like much difference, maybe a 16th or a fat 16th. I used rocklers hinge it jig sytem which only puts the edge of cup hole about 3mm away from door edge.I know I need other templates now.

So is my problem the hinge cup hole? If I make that side of the door new, and drill it at 22.5 mm will it solve the gap issue, doesnt seem like it would since door hinge is cranked out max already and its tight. Another 3mm over and it will only be 1/16thi ish with full adjusted out.
Will building it out much farther pass the frame help? Like 1/2 inch total?

Here's directions for install, my application is on the right. The inset one.
http://www.rockler.com/tech/RTD10301010AA.pdf

Thank you

[Jamie Buxton]

It seems to me that moving the hole to 22.5 mm is going in the wrong direction. That would make the gap tighter, not looser.

[David DeCristoforo]

The build out (yellow area in your drawing) could be imagined as being equivalent to having the inside face of the cabinet end flush with the inside face of the face frame. With that being the case you would need the cranked version of the hinge and a 9mm buildup baseplate to get a full inset with the correct reveal. The Rockler drawing shows the cranked hinge but not the built up baseplate. You will have get the correct hinge/baseplate combination or build out the area under the baseplate to get it far enough over the get your reveal. Also, the drilling distances are critical with these hinges. In the future, drill a scrap piece first to be sure you have everything right before committing your finished product.

[Craig D Peltier]

The build out (yellow area in your drawing) could be imagined as being equivalent to having the inside face of the cabinet end flush with the inside face of the face frame. With that being the case you would need the cranked version of the hinge and a 9mm buildup baseplate to get a full inset with the correct reveal. The Rockler drawing shows the cranked hinge but not the built up baseplate. You will have get the correct hinge/baseplate combination or build out the area under the baseplate to get it far enough over the get your reveal. Also, the drilling distances are critical with these hinges. In the future, drill a scrap piece first to be sure you have everything right before committing your finished product.

Thanks David, I have a few questions then.
The hinge im using is half crank. So a full cranked hinge will work best or a straight?

What did you do to figure the 9mm so I understand? is that with my hinge cup being 19.5mm instead of 22.5? Then do they sell 9mm 8mm 7mm base plates?

Will the half crank hinge work or should I use another one?

If I build it out it will just be trial by error right?

I still can correct this , so I just want the correct hinge.

Thanks again

[Jim Becker]

Craig, just as an aside, I decided when I switched to Euro hinges that I didn't want to have to deal with special "face frame" versions. (I only do full inset doors) So I changed the way I built cabinets to have the cabinet interior flush with the opening in the face frame. I then use normal 120º Blum hinges for frameless cabinets. The mounting point for the cabinet side is measured from the front of the face frame, emulating how it would be with an inset door in a frameless cabinet.

Here's the door right here in my office:

108577

If the hinges you are using are inset for frameless, you should have the right amount of adjustment with the screws on the hinge. If not, I'd suspect the offset of the cup from the edge of the door. I think I use either 4mm or 5mm for the hinges I use, but don't recall off the top of my head.

[David DeCristoforo]

As far as I know there is no "1/2 cranked" hinge. There is a straight hinge and a cranked hinge. Download this and look at page 4

http://www.blum.com/pdf/BUS/1046_hinge_b/1046_hinges_b.pdf

This document contains exact specs for every possible combination of hinge/baseplate Blum offers.

[Jamie Buxton]

Craig, since you get your hinges from wwhardware, look on their site at this page http://wwhardware.com/media/products/apcharts/blum120cliptop.pdf

That shows you how to mount the Blum hinges.

David, on that page, Blum calls something a "half-cranked" hinge.

[Craig D Peltier]

As far as I know there is no "1/2 cranked" hinge. There is a straight hinge and a cranked hinge. Download this and look at page 4

http://www.blum.com/pdf/BUS/1046_hinge_b/1046_hinges_b.pdf

This document contains exact specs for every possible combination of hinge/baseplate Blum offers.

I will look at it when I have 91 pages of free time!
Heres a half cranked hinge. http://wwhardware.com/catalog.cfm/ProductID/B071M265
One side of the built in required an inset door but the face frame was over 1.5" so I used a inset hinge with face frame adapter that fastened on the back of the frame. It requires any half crank hinge. So it worked fine on that side.

[Craig D Peltier]

Maybe my issue is its a half cranked hinge an thats made for twin overlay doors.

http://www.hardwaresource.com/Store_ViewProducts.asp?Cat=1374

This is what the link says that im referring too.

The hinges come in 3 types; "Straight Arm" for overlay doors, "Half Cranked" for twin overlay doors (also known as "Back-to-Back" doors, and "Full Cranked" for inset doors

[David DeCristoforo]

OK but those are for glass doors and are not what you point to with the Rockler link in your original post.

Look at this for the intended "flush inset" application of the glass door hinges:

http://www.hardwaresource.com/uploads/FullCrkInstall.jpg

[Craig D Peltier]

Craig, since you get your hinges from wwhardware, look on their site at this page http://wwhardware.com/media/products/apcharts/blum120cliptop.pdf

That shows you how to mount the Blum hinges.

David, on that page, Blum calls something a "half-cranked" hinge.

Thanks Jamie, I see that it requires a 4.5 (which I assume is MM) if I have a 3mm distance from edge for hinge cup.Plus the build up to make the hinge plate flush to the face frame protrusion.

I dont understand what this means though.


Alternate hinge & mounting plate:
any straight hinge + 18mm plate

[Craig D Peltier]

OK but those are for glass doors and are not what you point to with the Rockler link in your original post.

Look at this for the intended "flush inset" application of the glass door hinges:

http://www.hardwaresource.com/uploads/FullCrkInstall.jpg

I see, I just googled , difference with half crank, full crank etc. This is the page that I went to with the search results.

So I guess half cranked isnt the issue then.

[David DeCristoforo]

There is some confusion here regarding the hinges you are using. The glass door hinges are in the category of "specialty" hinges and these carry their own specifications. The "regular' hinges are available in two basic configurations: "straight" and "cranked". There are three basic base plate "heights" or "buildups", 0MM, 3MM and 9MM. Different hinge/baseplate combinations will result in different "offsets" for different applications. There is some overlap. For example a straight hinge used with a 3MM baseplate will result in a "half overlay". A cranked hinge and a 0MM base plate will also result in a "half overlay". To get a "full inset" which is what you are trying to achieve, you need to use a cranked hinge and a 9MM base plate. But since you have a faceframe lip, you also need to shim the baseplate mounting area as shown in your "Hinge problem.pdf" document. If you do this, you will get a full inset door with a reveal. The location of the cup hole (distance from the edge of the door) will affect the amount of adjustability you will have and the width of the reveal. I hope this clears up some things.

[Craig D Peltier]

There is some confusion here regarding the hinges you are using. The glass door hinges are in the category of "specialty" hinges and these carry their own specifications. The "regular' hinges are available in two basic configurations: "straight" and "cranked". There are three basic base plate "heights" or "buildups", 0MM, 3MM and 9MM. Different hinge/baseplate combinations will result in different "offsets" for different applications. There is some overlap. For example a straight hinge used with a 3MM baseplate will result in a "half overlay". A cranked hinge and a 0MM base plate will also result in a "half overlay". To get a "full inset" which is what you are trying to achieve, you need to use a cranked hinge and a 9MM base plate. But since you have a faceframe lip, you also need to shim the baseplate mounting area as shown in your "Hinge problem.pdf" document. If you do this, you will get a full inset door with a reveal. The location of the cup hole (distance from the edge of the door) will affect the amount of adjustability you will have and the width of the reveal. I hope this clears up some things.


Thanks David, yes there was alot of confusion, sorry.
This does help. Im going to rockler and or woodcraft tommorrow to see if they have what I need.If not I will order from WW Hardware expedited.

[Jamie Buxton]

Im going to rockler and or woodcraft tommorrow to see if they have what I need.If not I will order from WW Hardware expedited.

I generally like to support my local stores, but hinges I order from wwhardware. That's because I can't figure out exactly what the local stores are selling. I may figure out that I need a specific hinge and a specific thickness of plate, but when I go to the local store, all they'll tell me is that it is an overlay hinge or the like. That's not enough info.

[Craig D Peltier]

I generally like to support my local stores, but hinges I order from wwhardware. That's because I can't figure out exactly what the local stores are selling. I may figure out that I need a specific hinge and a specific thickness of plate, but when I go to the local store, all they'll tell me is that it is an overlay hinge or the like. That's not enough info.

I agree rockler here is much better at hinges than woodcraft.

I see where Dave figured in the 9mm plate. I saw the post you did with a link Jamie about wwhardware's chart. It is confusing to me. It showed a 3mm bore and a 4.5 plate i think but that was on a half crank I believe.I dont understand the 3 4 5 6 on that chart with numbers below it. Which one is the bore? Is the plate always 9 on it in this chart?

So David clarified if I have a 9mm plate and full crank with a flush build out it should work.
Theres alot to learn about these hinges at first. I know all the basics. I almost always do face frame hinges though or frameless. None like this.

[Jamie Buxton]

I saw the post you did with a link Jamie about wwhardware's chart. It is confusing to me. It showed a 3mm bore and a 4.5 plate i think but that was on a half crank I believe.I dont understand the 3 4 5 6 on that chart with numbers below it. Which one is the bore? Is the plate always 9 on it in this chart?
....

That page is for a specific Blum hinge, one which opens 120 degrees. They show two kinds (a straight hinge, and a half-crank). There are three columns on the page, showing different applications. To understand that table, let's look at the first column, the one showing a straight hinge in an overlay application. The table shows different bore distances (that's the 3, 4, 5, 6), and different plate thicknesses (that's the 0, 3, 6, 9*). The entries in the middle of the table are the overlays which result from those various combinations. For instance, a bore distance of 5 and a plate height of 6 gives you an overlay of 10. (All these measurements are in millimeters.)

The application you're talking about, inset, is the right column. Blum is saying this only works with that half-crank hinge, and only with the 9 mm plate. The table is telling you what they call the reveal distance -- the gap between the door and the frame. For instance, with a bore distance of 5, you get a gap of 2.5 mm.

[David DeCristoforo]

Further clarification: Everything I have said so far applies to Blum hinges. I use Blum almost exclusively and the link in your post was to a Blum spec sheet. But each manufacturer has their own specs. You really do have to look at the specs before you commit to the idea of using a particular hinge in a particular application.

[Craig D Peltier]

That page is for a specific Blum hinge, one which opens 120 degrees. They show two kinds (a straight hinge, and a half-crank). There are three columns on the page, showing different applications. To understand that table, let's look at the first column, the one showing a straight hinge in an overlay application. The table shows different bore distances (that's the 3, 4, 5, 6), and different plate thicknesses (that's the 0, 3, 6, 9*). The entries in the middle of the table are the overlays which result from those various combinations. For instance, a bore distance of 5 and a plate height of 6 gives you an overlay of 10. (All these measurements are in millimeters.)

The application you're talking about, inset, is the right column. Blum is saying this only works with that half-crank hinge, and only with the 9 mm plate. The table is telling you what they call the reveal distance -- the gap between the door and the frame. For instance, with a bore distance of 5, you get a gap of 2.5 mm.

Thanks Jamie, that makes total sense.


Further clarification: Everything I have said so far applies to Blum hinges. I use Blum almost exclusively and the link in your post was to a Blum spec sheet. But each manufacturer has their own specs. You really do have to look at the specs before you commit to the idea of using a particular hinge in a particular application.
Thanks David, I always have been able to use the jig from rockler which is set for blum hinges. I understand the whole plate with reveal a whole lot clearer now.