Laser vs CNC router

[Doug Griffith]

I've heard quite often that if there was a choice between the 2, the money maker from the get go is a CNC router. I can see the point if it's regarding job requests but CNC routers are completely different animals. They have at least twice the steps from design to part, require expensive software, and have an overly steep learning curve. They are nowhere near as easy as using lasers. Doing actual money paying work would be many months behind the laser. I'm not even sure everybody has the capacity or patience to program CNCs. Anybody can run a laser... Well almost.

Laser:
1) draw illustration in Corel, Illustrator or other vector program
2) print to the print driver
3) set power/speed/frequency/resolution and a few other settings
4) focus lens to material height
5) watch the laser do it's magic

CNC router:
1) draw illustration in CAD program or import from other vector program
2) open drawing in a CAM program and create tool paths accounting for cutter diameter, cut depths, directions, speeds, etc...
3) post process to g-code
4) edit g-code for machine specific parameters
5) back plot to visualize and debug cutting process
6) repeat #2-#5 until satisfied
7) load g-code into CNC
8) clamp material down
9) set cutter to surface of material
10) run CNC and cross fingers

The above CNC process was overly condensed and doesn't even take into account machine settings, fixturing, part cleanup, etc...

I know others here use both and am curious if I'm on or off track.

Cheers,
Doug

[Scott Shepherd]

Doug, have you been around CNC's lately, I mean the new ones they are marketing to people who would buy a laser as opposed to the metal cutting ones used by machine shops?

No G-Code, no need to do any of that. Draw it, tell it the end mill size, set your Z, click an icon for cutter direction, and hit go.

It's very very easy. I programmed CNC machines for many years. Manually and with CAM programs, high end CAM programs. When I look at what it takes now, it's night and day.

I think the advantage to CNC machines like ShopBots are that they are inexpensive. For $15,000, you can have a nice one. You can land a couple of jobs, which don't tend to be in the $10 range, and you are done, it's paid for. It's not uncommon at all to get a job that completely pays for the machine itself.

For instance, take Corian signs. If you can get an order for a new building, you can easily pay for the machine in one job. I think that's the logic that you'll hear. I know it's not that easy and it's a bit more like lasers, where I have a feeling there are 100's of people with these CNC machines who can't figure out how to make any money with them.

[Doug Griffith]

I know there are good paying jobs out there for CNCs but am still questioning the software side and setup. Especially when compared to lasers.

I also think I'm up to date with CNC software and haven't seen any draw and cut software that doesn't involve many more steps. I use MasterCam X and SurfCam on a modern MultiCam router. I've demo'd Cadlink, Enroute and Punch products and none have everything. So far, the best tools I've found are cut2D/3D from Punch but all they do is post process.

The only CNC that is even remotely easy to use is the Carvewright but I consider it a toy for hobbyists.

[Dave Johnson29]

CNC router:
1) draw illustration in CAD program or import from other vector program
2) open drawing in a CAM program and create tool paths accounting for cutter diameter, cut depths, directions, speeds, etc...
3) post process to g-code
4) edit g-code for machine specific parameters
5) back plot to visualize and debug cutting process
6) repeat #2-#5 until satisfied
7) load g-code into CNC
8) clamp material down
9) set cutter to surface of material
10) run CNC and cross fingers


Doug,

I have a few CNC machines, lathes and mills and I have separate setup files for the GCode for each machine.

Your #1 through #7 is done in the CAD/CAM software and is fairly integrated and automated.

Your #8 you can't get away from. :)

Your #9 is handled by the Tool Offsets and the machine offsets in the CNC control.

G54 <-- Go to a preset offset 0,0 position in this case I have it set for the vice jaw back left corner. If I use the CNC Rotary I have it set for G55 as the center line and chuck face. I use G56 for the engraving head which is offset from the main spindle. etc

T01 <-- Select Tool #1 from the internal tool table which will have diameter, length, rotation direction etc etc.

Actually the above two lines are auto-inserted into a new GCode file back in #2 according to the setup file specific to that machine.

We have come a long way baby! :D

If it comes down to it, I would rather learn a CAD program than Corel. Corel has about 10,000 functions to choose from and requires creativity. On the other hand CAD requires a methodical approach with about 300 commands max.

[Doug Griffith]

Doug,

I have a few CNC machines, lathes and mills and I have separate setup files for the GCode for each machine.

Your #1 through #7 is done in the CAD/CAM software and is fairly integrated and automated.

Your #8 you can't get away from. :)

Your #9 is handled by the Tool Offsets and the machine offsets in the CNC control.

G54 <-- Go to a preset offset 0,0 position in this case I have it set for the vice jaw back left corner. If I use the CNC Rotary I have it set for G55 as the center line and chuck face. I use G56 for the engraving head which is offset from the main spindle. etc

T01 <-- Select Tool #1 from the internal tool table which will have diameter, length, rotation direction etc etc.

Actually the above two lines are auto-inserted into a new GCode file back in #2 according to the setup file specific to that machine.

We have come a long way baby! :D

If it comes down to it, I would rather learn a CAD program than Corel. Corel has about 10,000 functions to choose from and requires creativity. On the other hand CAD requires a methodical approach with about 300 commands max.

I don't like Corel at all and see why you'd rather learn a CAD program. Though they are usually bloated as well.

If you started from scratch with no knowledge of either, do you think you would be up and running with a CNC router quicker than a laser? I personally don't think so. Just knowing how to create efficient, working fixtures takes time to learn.

I personally like G92 for setting up arrays of items. I set soft homes between multiple lines of code.

[Scott Shepherd]

Doug, I'm not familiar with those CNC programs, but I can tell you I have stood right behind Ed Lang when it was cutting stuff for me. We imported a shape from Corel, click on the cutter, entered which side of the line to cut on (clicked an icon), entered a feed rate, and hit go. It simulated it on the screen, looked right, hit go, it ran it on the machine.

No G Code, no nothing. I never saw any code, never saw anything remotely related to the old days of CNC. It was very point and clicky.

I agree 100% with you, a laser is so much easier to start off with. Especially if you don't come from the machining world.

I think Ed was using Aspire when I watched him.

[Larry Bratton]

My process is:
Create in Corel Draw or Enroute 3plus
Export to Enroute 3plus as an Ai or Dxf (unless your already creating it there)
Let Enroute create the toolpaths, set the depth of cut, speed and feed.
Export to machine via the Post Processor
Run the file.
(material has to be held down by various methods but that's not related to this per se, their are also material issues with a laser that have to be dealt with)
Not much more complicated than the laser. Granted, the software is more, but today many packages include it.
The first CNC router I looked at in person, I bought. I brought it home, and literally was making and running tool paths within 48 hours. That was 5 years ago and I am still running the same software and machine.

The most difficult part of either one is the software. I can guarantee you that anybody that possesses any degree of competent graphics software experience can run Enroute software. Corel Draw has a much steeper learning curve. It also sounds like that the software that comes with the Chinese lasers is not much better either.

Anddd as Scott said..I defy you to cut designs for signs like Keith or some of us makes out of 1/2" Corian or solid surface for the same investment with a laser. My 40watt will not cut 1/2" solid surface. Quarter is slowwww. I can zip through 1/2" at 200 inches a minute no sweat. I can cut out a design in a matter of seconds and not many minutes.

[bob pfohler]

I have both machines, a ShopBot CNC and a Universal Laser and the CNC is every bit as easy as the laser.

The software for design for the CNC can be Corel or an inexpensive cad program that saves or exports files in a DXF format. My TurboCad was only $99.

My machining software (CAM) for the CNC was $500 and it's very simple and similar to vector cutting with the laser.

In my opinion there are 2 major differences in the machines and the product produced on them.

1.With the CNC one of the most widely discussed challenges is hold-downs. The expensive machines (50k+) have vacuum tables that make life easy. Most of use clamps, screw or whatever stops the material from flying off the table.

2. But the biggest difference to me, as a sign maker, is the work required before and after machining. Laser items can be masked and hit with a can of spray paint. Add some double stick tape or put a screw in the wall and your sign is hanging
CNC items have to be primedx2, paintedx2, machined, sanded, sealed and the letters and carvings hand painted. Also, most of our CNC signs are outdoor installs and we have decide on post or hanging methods.

[Larry Bratton]

Bob:
You should try Corian or other solid surface material for signs in case you haven't. No priming required. Lasts forever inside and 30 years plus outside. It also laser engraves beautifully.

[Rodne Gold]

I have quite a few of both -- 6 lasers and 5 CnCs ranging from engravers on steriods to a fairly sophisticated Tekcel.
For a novice ... the laser is about 500% easier to use - you need have no tool knowledge , machining knowledge , speed and feed knowledge , technical drawing knowledge etc.
Lasers are basically printers. My wife could easily run my laser but I need a "machinist" to run my CnC's.
CnC's only really make money on production jobs and you really only make money as a "wholesaler" to signage co's etc.
At any rate , both are different tools suitable for different purposes and the overlap abilities of both isn't huge at all...We find that having both machines is far greater than the sum of the 2 - IE the results of using both are the REAL way to making good money.

[Keith Outten]

I agree with Rodney that the two machines compliment each other in a big way. If I had to choose between the two my laser engraver would be long gone. My CNC router is the most profitable machine in my shop, easily ten times the income capacity of my laser engraver but that is probably because my target market is commercial signs.

CNC Routers have gotten much easier to operate due to the software that is available these days. Even an old dog can learn a few new tricks with the software that Vectric produces for a long list of machines. The new Aspire software provides a much easier means of doing two and a half and 3D designs, something I never figured I would be able to learn to do in my shop.

As Larry mentioned above Corian is an absolutely magic material for engraving and for CNC routing. Corian is versatile and very forgiving with little cleanup to do after routing, sharp bits will leave an almost polished machined surface.

[bob pfohler]

Bob:
You should try Corian or other solid surface material for signs in case you haven't. No priming required. Lasts forever inside and 30 years plus outside. It also laser engraves beautifully.

I do use it for small indoor signs but large (4"x6") outdoor signs it's very heavy and expensive.

[Doug Griffith]

For a novice ... the laser is about 500% easier to use - you need have no tool knowledge , machining knowledge , speed and feed knowledge , technical drawing knowledge etc.
Lasers are basically printers. My wife could easily run my laser but I need a "machinist" to run my CnC's

Exactly what I think!!!

I know there's sign software out there (ie. Enroute, Aspire, VCarve...) that makes it easier than the process I go through but a CNC programmer/operator still needs to know what he's doing. If he "screws up" while setting up a laser job, the worst that can happen is ruined material or, if he's careless, a fire. A CNC can do some SERIOUS damage if the head crashes. Plus it's dangerous.

I think if 2 people with no related knowledge were given everything they needed to do both processes, the one with the laser would be producing items far quicker. The one with the CNC would still be figuring out how to hold the material down.

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree with you Doug, the laser is far easier. One thing I see missing from so much of the router world is hold down. I've machined more parts than I could ever count (so, that's roughly more than 3), and never once did we ever hold anything down with a vacuum. It was attempted a time or two, but at no time was vacuum considered a viable workholding device while using endmills or carbide cutters.

However, that seems to be the battle cry of how you should hold things down. In my experience, you had a clamp or some mechanical method of holding the work. More often then not, when chips got back into the cut or a piece of extra material that's getting milled away comes back into the cut, it either sucks the scrap into the cut, between the workpiece and the cutter and spits it out the other end, or it breaks the cutter. You work doesn't move. However, with the vacuum systems I've seen, if it chokes on chips or a scrap of material, then it moves the workpiece.

If I had a CNC, I'd be a clamp guy, not much of a vacuum guy on the hold downs. But that's just my opinion.

[Rodne Gold]

We hold everything down with either vacuum or mainly double sided tape..We use a double sided tape that strips off cleanly.
If you use the correct bit and speed and feed , there shoud be little or no lateral force on the workpiece. We often cut with "bridges" , teeny little tabs that hold the cut piece in place on the sheet of material and break the cut piece out after - works real well and most packages do em automatically. Vacuum holddown is very strong but requires some serious pumps , for our one 4ft x 4ft table we have a 7.5 hp pump and still have the ability to blank areas. I use a thin sacrificial mdf sheet on the table proper - we drill it and mill channels and the suction is strong enough to go thru the mdf itsself...I must say , the double sided tape is a lot easier - we put a bed of 10mm thick pex on our 4 x 8 tekcel and mill it flat and stick the stuff on it.
I seldom do anything that requires clamps , but 2 of our tables are T slotted to accept clamping fixtures when we need to do it.
Essentially our CnC machines are computerised routers , not true CnC mills like a Haas.
the software can be as expensiveas a machine , I use mastercam , signlab, profilelab and artcam and shudder to think what those packages cost me.

[Doug Griffith]

I hold almost everything down with vacuum. And just like Rodne, I use an overlaying sheet of MDF with holes and slots milled into it. I also add slots with 1/8" square neoprene gasket material to aid in sealing off the vacuum. For acrylic jobs, I rough cut .005 outside the part and .030 from cutting all the way through. I then run a finish cut .005 in and all the way through. This is done to keep as much surface area as possible while removing large amounts of material. It helps prevent chatter that can happen due to the lateral force of the cutter moving the sheet around. And I use a 30hp vacuum pump that costs more than most lasers.

One of the best "features" of a laser is not having to worry about any of the above.

[Marc Myer]

There's the rub.
It's been a few years since I had my two small CNC mills, and my experience back then was good, but not great. I couldn't afford to buy those really expensive programs (my first CNC was a Roland and it had its own software). I loved doing the work; the software and G-code were difficult for my right-oriented brain. And holding down a 1/8" piece of aluminum was a challenge. I'd like to try again sometime. It was always very difficult to get a good smooth cut for me, as much of my work requires a very smooth finish for chroming. The laser gets me the smooth cuts and tight angles I wanted, at the cost of beveled edges.
But is there software now that has ascended to a good level of simplicity (idiot-friendliness) and effectiveness without spending thousands?

[Dave Johnson29]

But is there software now that has ascended to a good level of simplicity (idiot-friendliness) and effectiveness without spending thousands?


Marc,

There's the rub. "without spending thousands," I don't think so.

In my machining experience, smooth finish with virtually no burr is always a function of speed, feed, appropriate coolant and cutter quality.

Holding down 1/8" aluminum, not a problem with adhesives. Hot melt, UV cure etc etc.

[Scott Shepherd]

I think we're talking about 2 different things. My experience is exclusively with metal. I've seen a small end mill move a big part many times. I'm sure the plastics and wood world is a different animal.

I'm still paranoid, especially when you drop a $1000 piece of material on the table and hit go :)

[Doug Griffith]

I've seen a small end mill move a big part many times. I'm sure the plastics and wood world is a different animal.

Plastic moves too. Especially if the item doesn't have much surface area. Larger signs, which most people here do, probably don't have the same problem.


There's the rub. "without spending thousands," I don't think so.

I'd say around $2300 will get you a descent software package capable of doing signs on a CNC. Something like Aspire plus Cut2d plus Cut3d. Any less than that and you'll be wishing you had more.

[Marc Myer]

What about a mini-mill? My CNC work is primarily very precise, small automobile emblems. Holding down aluminum securely is a big issue, as is the software. The software you referred to--would your comments still apply given these parameters?

[Doug Griffith]

What about a mini-mill? My CNC work is primarily very precise, small automobile emblems. Holding down aluminum securely is a big issue, as is the software. The software you referred to--would your comments still apply given these parameters?

I've got a Taig just for that purpose but have yet to use it. For the type of work you do, I think the software solution I mentioned would be perfect.

[Dave Johnson29]

What about a mini-mill? My CNC work is primarily very precise, small automobile emblems.


Hi Marc,

You would have to be more specific in what you need to do. A small benchtop CNC-mill like the Sherline etc will be fine for small part machining. In fact back in 1994 that's what I used in my bedroom to get started in business. I have moved a long way from that with one of my CNC mills weighing in at 2-1/2 tons. :D

Way abck then, I was doing complex machining of 1/16" thick aluminum and it was quite adequate but slow. However if you need to do engraving type stuff the spindle speed is waaaaay too slow for that. You would need to adapt a high speed spindle (20,00rpm and up) for engraving type work otherwise you will be forever hand finishing burrs etc.

Horses for courses.

[bob pfohler]

Well Doug you see a lot of varying opinions. There are some that prefer the CNC and some the laser.

I started with the CNC and after talking to Ed Lang about laser engravers I took the dive. I wasn't very familiar with CAD but I was able to catch on pretty quick. Corel can export in DXF and ShopBot has made the CAM software easy to operate. If you have any knowledge of a CAD program like Corel or TurboCad you can easily create files for either machine.

I love that I have the versatility of both and they are a great compliment to each other and we do an equal amount of work on both. I often cutout sign blanks in material like Corian or Western Red Cedar on the CNC and take them to the laser for engraving.

What the hell, life is short. BUY BOTH!

[Larry Bratton]

Well Doug you see a lot of varying opinions. There are some that prefer the CNC and some the laser.

I started with the CNC and after talking to Ed Lang about laser engravers I took the dive. I wasn't very familiar with CAD but I was able to catch on pretty quick. Corel can export in DXF and ShopBot has made the CAM software easy to operate. If you have any knowledge of a CAD program like Corel or TurboCad you can easily create files for either machine.

I love that I have the versatility of both and they are a great compliment to each other and we do an equal amount of work on both. I often cutout sign blanks in material like Corian or Western Red Cedar on the CNC and take them to the laser for engraving.

What the hell, life is short. BUY BOTH!
Absolutely, if you can have both they are great compliments to one another. It simply expands your horizons.

[Steve knight]

I think most of it got covered. hold down is critical with a cnc router. the faster you cut the harder it is to hold down the material. a router will be more expensive too and take more space and tooling to use well. dc vacuum hold down other woodworking tools. me if I get a laser I want one that will cut metal. or a waterjet.

[Larry Bratton]

I think most of it got covered. hold down is critical with a cnc router. the faster you cut the harder it is to hold down the material. a router will be more expensive too and take more space and tooling to use well. dc vacuum hold down other woodworking tools. me if I get a laser I want one that will cut metal. or a waterjet.
Steve:
I beg to differ with the "more expensive" part of your reply. Good workable CNC machines can be had today for under $20k. Certainly not true if your comparing to a YAG laser and for sure waterjet equipment which I understand will run over a 100k

[Keith Outten]

There are lots of CNC routers in the 7 to 15 thousand dollar range and very few laser engravers. CNC routers are now appearing at even lower cost, some starting at just over 2 grand. I don't know what the quality is like but competition seems to be having an affect on pricing and the market is responding to the fact that small shops are interested in the technology.

A compromise for some may be purchasing a rotary engraver. The larger models are more like small CNC routers, some are offering 3HP PC Router motors and are capable of 3D work. Unfortunately the price of a rotary engraver can be in the same price range as a large format CNC machine like ShopBots or CamMasters. People with limited space who can't consider even a ShopBot Buddy can still consider a desktop rotary engraver.

.

[Brad Knight]

Just my 2¢... from a guy who is looking at both technologies and have been for a while now...

... to ask "CNC or Laser" is asking the wrong question.

The question should be "what do I want to do." There are a lot of things that are suitable for the laser, a lot of things suitable for the CNC, and a few places where they overlap.

I can't put a cell phone or a laptop on a CNC machine and engrave...

I can't put a put a full sheet of 3/4 ply, do 3D relief very efficiently, cut and engrave aluminum, etc... on a laser.

Cost wise... neither are cheap. Both take a pretty good knowledge of their respective software packages...

... but the key ingredient either way is the imagination and creativity of the operator and the technical ability of the operator to convince the machine to do what you want it to do. THAT... is where the value is.

[Doug Griffith]

Considering a fixed budget and wanting to get in the game...

I compare cheap CNC routers (think Carvewright) to cheap Chinese lasers. Both are limited in their capacity, use less than industrial grade components, and are restricted by their software.

The next step up for both isn't as comparable. The Zing/Versalaser lasers and the Shark router come to mind. The lasers are more or less scaled down production machines. The Shark isn't quite there yet. It is built from plastic and uses a small Dremel type router motor. Plus there is a considerable difference in price.

I would compare entry level lasers like the Zing or Versalaser to a Shopbot and they fall within the same price range. Above 7k and under 20k is about right.

Another thing to think about. The pricing for entry level CNC routers come with routers instead of high speed spindles. A router (even a PC) is like a glass laser tube. You'll wish you had the real thing.

[Scott Shepherd]

A router (even a PC) is like a glass laser tube. You'll wish you had the real thing.

A router will make me wish I had a Coca-Cola? :D (sorry, 15 minute jobs running in the laser and I'm bored :) ).

[Keith Outten]

Doug,

The subject of spindles vs router motors has been beat to death more than a few times but there is still merit to both sides of the issue. I own a ShopBot with a PC 7518 router motor. I run a ShopBot at CNU that is basically the same machine I own except it has a spindle. I use both machines almost daily and my opinion is that spindles offer very little for the increase in price, my opinion is based on my personal feelings concerning what I classify as "Best Value". A major part of my "Best Value" evaluation is based on the type of work that I do. Others may very well come to a very different conclusion.

If I was in the market for another machine my decision would be to purchase one with a router motor rather than a spindle. This may be 180 degrees out from someone elses opinion but it proves that not one soul has the right to declare that spindles are always the best choice. The cost difference between my PC router at $280.00 and the spindle at CNU which was $2,800.00 is not insignificant. For me, and the work I do, the difference in performance could never justify the additional cost of a spindle.

Other than price my only pet peeve is having to warm up the ceramic bearings in the spindle before I can start machining....and the subsequent warm-ups throughout the day that are required if the machine sits idle for any period of time.

In defense of the other side of this thread I do take the time to warm up my laser engraver before starting a job, for some reason that doesn't bother me near as much as having to warm up the dang spindle :)
.

[Doug Griffith]

I think all I've managed with starting this thread is proving to myself that I'm opinionated. Everyone else probably figured it out long ago.

SPINDLES RULE!!!

[bob pfohler]

Personally I don't think it matters which you buy, I'd be willing to bet soon after you will own the other machine. Like most of us this is just the beginning of your obsession with cool tools.

We are self taught on both machines with help only from this forum and business has been very good, even with the down turn economy. We recently added a small vinyl plotter and it's been a blast exploring the new possibilities.

[Keith Outten]

There are people here who have been successful building their business around a single machine. I tried to do just that when I purchased my laser engraver but It didn't work for me. Adding a CNC router made the difference in my case and the combination of the two machines really made it easier for me to produce products that were desirable and more importantly that I enjoyed the work.

I think that if you enjoy what you do no matter what machine or machines you use it increases the odds of success. Most will center their product line around a single machine, whether it is a lathe, scroll saw or computer controlled machine it is easier to learn and use the machines that allow you to work in your preferred design style and be creative.
.

[Tom Majewski]

My day job has me programing and using CC routers, and I have the laser when I'm home.

Still, I'd like to get a small shopbot for home.

[Larry Bratton]

Ceramic bearings in a spindle? I never knew that. My old Warthog has a 5hp Columbo on it that has never been warmed up that I know of. No one ever told me to do that. I just turn the machine on and run what I have to run. I leave and go back to it again later in the day and do it again. Do all spindles have those? That Columbo spindle is like the rabbit in the battery commercial..she just keeps on and on and on. Never been off for repair.

My machine is old technology I guess, but at the time I bought it, the spindle wasn't as loud as a Porter Cable router by a long shot. Is it still that way or have the routers improved in that respect?

[Doug Griffith]

Ceramic bearings in a spindle? I never knew that. My old Warthog has a 5hp Columbo on it that has never been warmed up that I know of. No one ever told me to do that. I just turn the machine on and run what I have to run. I leave and go back to it again later in the day and do it again. Do all spindles have those? That Columbo spindle is like the rabbit in the battery commercial..she just keeps on and on and on. Never been off for repair.

My machine is old technology I guess, but at the time I bought it, the spindle wasn't as loud as a Porter Cable router by a long shot. Is it still that way or have the routers improved in that respect?

My Perske Spindle has ceramic bearings and runs so quiet you don't even know it's running. At least in the shop environment. I rarely warm mine up because time is money and I don't think the cost of a new spindle will exceed the down time. It depends if the operator has other things to do. I also live in California so it never really gets that cold.

[Larry Bratton]

Doug:
Ah..that's the reason I guess. My shop is heated and I am in SC. I don't usually work at that shop on really cold days anyway. Costs too much to heat it, so if it's not critical to get it done, I work at my laser shop which is a much smaller building and a lot easier to heat. I'll keep that in mind though should I need to run something on a really cold day. What's the procedure for warming them up? Just let the spindle run for awhile before starting to cut or route? How long? I reckon the Columbo has ceramics..

[Keith Outten]

Larry,

Your owners manual for your spindle probably has warm up instructions. The one we have at CNU requires one minute warmups at frequency settings of 150, 225 and 300 which is max speed.

Ceramic bearings are very close tolerance bearings, the run-out at the router bit is probably less than 25% of a normal router motor. This is the reason they should be warmed up incrementally and I doubt it has anything to do with whether your shop is heated or not...but I don't think it would be a good idea to start up a spindle if your shop is extremely cold. The thermal shock may crack the bearings.

Rebuilding a spindle is not the same task as replacing the bearings in a router. I'm told it is quite a chore and requires some special tools. I don't know what the cost would be but I expect it would cause me to have a heart attack :)
.

[Larry Bratton]

Larry,

Your owners manual for your spindle probably has warm up instructions. The one we have at CNU requires one minute warmups at frequency settings of 150, 225 and 300 which is max speed.

Ceramic bearings are very close tolerance bearings, the run-out at the router bit is probably less than 25% of a normal router motor. This is the reason they should be warmed up incrementally and I doubt it has anything to do with whether your shop is heated or not...but I don't think it would be a good idea to start up a spindle if your shop is extremely cold. The thermal shock may crack the bearings.

Rebuilding a spindle is not the same task as replacing the bearings in a router. I'm told it is quite a chore and requires some special tools. I don't know what the cost would be but I expect it would cause me to have a heart attack :)
.
Ha! Don't have a manual..never did. The manufacturer of the machine is now the highly touted Camaster guy. The router I have had for 5 years apparently didn't have a published manual for it back at that time...soooo...subsequently we just figured it out on our own. I am however going to ask that question, you got my curiosity up.

[Steve knight]

you will loose about 1/2 the bearing life without a warmup. columbo's are worse then hsd's but I don't think they come with ceramic bearings unless they were a special addon.
if you don't warm up the spindle the bearings are sloppy and you put pressure on them they wear far faster. once warmed up the tolerance is where it is supposed to be and you have far less runout.

[Larry Bratton]

you will loose about 1/2 the bearing life without a warmup. columbo's are worse then hsd's but I don't think they come with ceramic bearings unless they were a special addon.
if you don't warm up the spindle the bearings are sloppy and you put pressure on them they wear far faster. once warmed up the tolerance is where it is supposed to be and you have far less runout.
Steve:
I just learned that from the authorized repair center for Columbo , Precision Drive Systems in Bessemer City, NC. They told me identically the same thing and did advise to run the spindle for 10 to 15 minutes prior to putting it under load. I have never done that before, so, I may have shortened the life of the bearings. Anyhow, they have had over 5 years of life so far, but we will start warming it up prior to putting it under load in the future. Thanks for the info.

[Keith Outten]

I've heard quite often that if there was a choice between the 2, the money maker from the get go is a CNC router. I can see the point if it's regarding job requests but CNC routers are completely different animals. They have at least twice the steps from design to part, require expensive software, and have an overly steep learning curve. They are nowhere near as easy as using lasers. Doing actual money paying work would be many months behind the laser. I'm not even sure everybody has the capacity or patience to program CNCs. Anybody can run a laser... Well almost.



Doug,

Back to your original question these are my opinions:

My experience is that CNC Routers will produce more profit than laser engravers by a long shot.

Most CNC manufacturers include the necessary software with their machines.
The learning curve for a 3 dimensional machine is steeper but it has gotten much easier than it was even four years ago as new software has become available. Design work can be done in Corel Draw, the same software that most laser engravers use for their machines. Once the design is done you need to create toolpaths which isn't as difficult as you would think and you don't have to do any programing.

Profitable work can easily be done in the first few days, often the most simple tasks will provide excellent income. Don't get caught up in the idea that until you can produce high-end 3D signs you will not see a profit.

Laser engravers are a bit easier to operate than CNC machines but they still require a considerable amount of time to learn the various techniques to use for a very wide variety of materials. I doubt the statement that anybody can run a laser engraver is true or even close to being true. They aren't just simple printers, there are lots of combinations of speeds and power settings to consider and every machine is unique. throw in the variables that you would find when working with non engineered materials and it gets a bit more involved. After you have engraved your first photograph only then will you begin to understand how talented the people here are...and you will begin to respect their expertise. They make it look so easy!

From my vantage point I would advise you purchase a CNC router first then a laser engraver, if you are planning on owning both machines. The router will help you pay for your laser engraver in a shorter time span.

When you start shopping for a laser engraver resist the urge to purchase based on price. Your first and most important consideration should be the very best manufacturer. You will need their help more than you know and the price of replacing C02 Tubes is something you should know about before you purchase. Ask about software and driver updates and get a guarantee that the manufacturer will correct all bugs found in their driver within a reasonable number of years. Ask them how many years they will provide driver/software support...my laser is about six years old and Epilog didn't include it in their latest driver updates. Xenetech promised me a bug fix for their $35,000 XLT-1325 laser over two years ago, good thing I didn't hold my breath.

Many here have received machines that were very expensive lemons. Ask the manufacturer if they will take the machine back without penalty if they can't fix their machine in less than five attempts during the warranty period. They don't mind sending you parts for weeks or months while you provide your labor free changing out parts looking for a problem they can't diagnose over the phone. Don't forget that while you spend days or weeks swapping out parts you won't be making any money and your labor and overhead costs will add to your pain while your customers wait and wait and wait.

Brochures that seem to promise 20,000 to 30,000 hours of laser tube life can be misleading. What they mean is the the gas in the tube should last that many hours but they don't mention the electronics and the electronics are what fails most of the time.

What you can learn here is what questions to ask that will save you from major heartbreak if your shiny new $30,000 laser engraver turns out to be a machine you wish you never laid eyes on. The number of people who have had serious problems with certain makes, models and manufacturers is well documented here, read and heed.

Over the last five years I have noticed that laser engravers are inclined to have hardware problems much more frequently than CNC Routers and routers are, generally speaking, less expensive. When your laser engraver is down for repairs your router will be making you money helping to keep your bills paid.
.

[Richard Rumancik]

Keith, thanks for your informative comments about lasers vs. routers.


. . . .Laser engravers are a bit easier to operate than CNC machines but they still require a considerable amount of time to learn the various techniques to use for a very wide variety of materials. I doubt the statement that anybody can run a laser engraver is true or even close to being true. They aren't just simple printers, there are lots of combinations of speeds and power settings to consider and every machine is unique. throw in the variables that you would find when working with non engineered materials and it gets a bit more involved. .

Keith, I agree with you 100% on this one.

Doug and Rodne, with all due respect, perhaps you have forgotten all you have learned over time and it is now second nature. I agree that an inexperienced person can "run" a laser, but they certainly wouldn't be able to troubleshoot problems. A lot of laser problems are materials issues that an operator just cannot solve. Pressing "start" over and over is one thing; being able to figure out an approach to how something could be done is quite another. And being able to use vector graphics programs and photo-manipulation programs effectively is not trivial either.

A lot of manufacturers highlight the "fact" that laser fabrication does not require fixturing because it is a non-contact process. So why do I have so many fixtures? And an operator probably can't design and fabricate fixtures. No, CO2 lasers are not like printers . . .

I am not disagreeing that routers require significant expertise, but I don't want to leave the impression that lasers are simple either.