Need shaper selection advice

[Erik Christensen]

I am looking at getting a shaper. I have never owned one before and only used one a few times many years ago. After a lot of research I have decided that it is a better choice for what I want to do than a router table. I intend to equip it with a power feeder from the start so I can continue to count to 10 with my shoes on:D . I will use it to make cabinet doors and molding to start but I have some exterior doors that I would like to try and replace down the road.
I have been looking at Grizzly and have it down to a few different models. My questions are:
1) 3hp vs 5HP: The specs between the 2 are pretty close. Both offer ¾’, 1” & 1¼” spindle sizes, 3” vs 3 1/4” spindle travel, 5 ½” vs 5 7/8” cutter diameter, etc. The biggest difference (aside from the motor size) appears to be the spindle capacity under nut 2 1/4” vs 5” and 2 speeds vs 4. So I’d like to know :a) will I get value/use from the extra 2HP and b) what is the likelihood I will want to use a cutter whose height will not fit on the 3HP shaper spindle?
2) If I go with the 5 HP model should I consider tilting spindle? What advantages/disadvantages are there to a tilting spindle machine? How easy is it to get it back to an exact 90 degree position? What extra use would I get out of a shaper cutter if I can tilt it?
Costs are: ~$1,000 3HP, ~$2,400 5hp & ~$3,000 5HP tilting.
I like the idea of a larger motor (why I bought a 5HP table saw) and tilting spindle; but that about triples the price! If I am using a power feeder I will have precise control of the feed-rate so that I will be less likely to bog down the 3HP machine. Given all that, it seems to get down to how useful is the larger cutter height capacity and tilt feature.
Any and all advice welcome including “put down the plastic and step away from the keyboard – nobody has to get hurt”.

[Jack Briggs]

Erik,

The 3HP Grizzly (G1026) doesn't come with 1 1/4" spindle. 1/2", 3/4" and 1" are it's capacities.

For my needs I bought a G1035 1 1/2HP with a 3/4" spindle. I use this exclusively for exterior shaping of guitar bodies with a Byrd cutterhead. I had no need for a tilting spindle, nor did I want one. If you're doing millwork it may be a thing to have.


Cheers,

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Eric, if you're going to make exterior doors you're going to be using large diameter cutters.

Buy a shaper with a solid 1 1/4" spindle, large under the nut capacity and 4 speeds so that you have some lower RPM speeds. 5 HP would be a good choice.

If I were you, in this market, I'd look for a used industrial machine rather than a lower performance import.

Regards, Rod.

[Joe Chritz]

For panel raising a 3HP is generally plenty. Even though it will do one pass on raised panels I still take two just to clean up the cut and because my feeder is on the small side. With a larger feeder and 5HP I would seriously think about one pass climb cuts for panels.

For passage doors the cutters are bigger and take a bigger bite so a bigger shaper wouldn't hurt at all. Again 3HP is probably enough to do a few but if you were doing a lot of them I would seriously look at a 5HP model.

I haven't used a tilting shaper but it would be handy for moulding and the like which I really can't produce economically on a shaper anyway.

3/4 vs 1 1/4 is a big deal. Primarily the 1 1/4 inch cutters are larger (overall diameter) which gives a better cut geometry, they are also widely available on the used market. The spindle is substantially stiffer for those giant cuts. For me 3/4" does all I need to do and if I get 1 1/4" cutters I will just turn a sleeve.

Joe

[David DeCristoforo]

I cannot tell you anything about Grizzly machines. But here are some thoughts on shapers in general:

1) You should get a machine with these spindle options: 1/2", 3/4". 1 1/4", 30mm and 40mm. the metric sizes will accommodate European tooling. Why a 1/2" spindle?. simple this. There are a lot of small cutters available for very little money. They are mostly HSS cutters but work very well for small runs, can be sharpened "in house" and will fit into a smaller inside curve. The 3/4" and 1 1/4" are "standard" US sizes.

2) In addition to the above a router collet is good to have. Many machines offer a "high speed", usually 10,000 RPM for running router bits.

3) Get as much power as you can afford. You will never regret having five horsepower when you could have had only three!

4) If you can afford the extra cost, a sliding table is indispensable. A tilting spindle is nice but if I had to choose one over the other, the slider would win out hands down.

5) You did say you were getting a feeder so I will just ad that without a feeder, a shaper is (IMMHO) an incomplete machine.

Most shapers will limit your cutter diameter and "under the nut" capacity based on the power and "duty rating" of the machine. This is logical and easy to understand. They don't want you trying to run a ten pound, eight inch diameter cutter on a machine with a 3/4" spindle and a 2HP motor!

[John Carlo]

I first started out with a shaper attachment for my Shopsmith. I bought a bunch of 1/2" bore cutters found in an old hardware store at 1950's pricing. Then I bought a used Delta 1 1/12 hp with a fixed 1/2" spindle for $200. Next purchase was a closeout on a 3HP New Delta from a tool store that was closing. Got both the 1/2" and 3/4" spindles and both router collets with it for $1400. Last year I bought a Steel City for $1400 with 3/4 & 1" spindles and both router collars. (See my previous post). All 3 do what they are supposed to and I like the versatility of multiple spindles. One note is that you can change the orientation of the fences 90 degrees on the two larger machines in relation to the miter slot so I have the Steel City set up so the slot runs parallel to the fence for use with a coping sled. The larger Delta is set up for maximum table area ahead of the fence. One tip I have is to always be on the lookout for shaper cutters the dealers can't get rid of. I've bought many at less than half price. I stopped at a tool shop in Toledo last Monday and bought brand new Freud 1/2" and 1" straight cutters for $30 each. Better they get rid of inventory than have shelf space taken up by cutters that may sit there for years.

[Joe Jensen]

Here you go, in Los Angeles
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/tls/1011327102.html


Seriously, you are looking at the kind of machine a commercial shop would use. In this economy you will find a lot of shops liquidating in the southern california area over the next 6 months. In Phx within a month or so, I think I could find a 3 or 5ph with feeder for under $1000. These feeders are $600-1100 alone new, and would run forever. I'd strongly advise buying used unless you really want new shiny paint. Heck I like the new shiny paint so I normally repaint the old stuff I buy :D


Jointer before
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/_NIK2946Large.jpg


Jointer after
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/_NIK3344.jpg


Compressor before
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/010209010309010407200804059affe07bf.jpg


Compressor after
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/compressorfrontmedium.jpg

[Dana Vogel]

I have the little Grizzly 1-1/2 HP shaper and it was ok until I got serious with it, the table is to short for long boards is not stable and is just an all around pain (access to changing bits, cutters). If I were to do it again I will get one of the new PM2700 3 or 5 HP shapers factory recon from Redmond Machinery in Atlanta for $2000.00 FOB I live close enough I would take a day trip up to get it.

[Jeff Duncan]

Are you doing this for a living or a hobby? The amount your going to be using it makes a big difference in my mind on what you should look for. As others have said you can get by with a 3/4" spindle, 3 hp machine for doing cabinet doors just fine. But passage doors usually use larger diameter cutters w/ larger bores. And it's never bad to have more hp.
Also what's your budget for this machine? If I had $5k to spend I would look at picking up a late model SCM shaper w/ powerfeed. If I had $3k to spend I'd probably look at something like a 5hp Powermatic 27 again w/ powerfeed. If I had $1k to spend with the only option being an inexpensive import machine......I'd stick with the router table for now. And I really wouldn't ever look at an inexpensive machine with a tilting spindle, just looking for trouble there. It's enough just to get the spindle on an inexpensive machine at a perfect 90 to the table.
Lastly, for some reason guys seem to always make it a choice between a router table and a shaper. I don't know why this is, but it's not practical in my mind. I have 2 shapers and a router table and they all get used often. No way I'd ever get rid of my router table, in fact if I ever get the time I'd like to make it a bit bigger and make a few other improvements.
good luck,
JeffD

[J.R. Rutter]

While the fence isn't quite as versatile, I like my MiniMax shapers better than the Powermatics that I started with. Consider that the spindle is the most important element for a smooth running machine and branch out from there. The Powermatics have the spindle held in place by a cast iron arm and clamp. I've never looked under the Delta, but the Grizzly's are the same. On the other hand, industrial shapers have a larger spindle (bearings widely spaced and larger diameter) cartridge that slides up and down in a casting bolted directly to the cast iron table top. Even the relatively budget MiniMax has this arrangement and balanced sheaves for power transmission. It also has a smaller footprint than the others that have been mentioned - less than 2 ft x 3 ft.

**Caveat - I have 2 of these for sale on the classifieds page, so maybe this should all be taken with a grain of salt... But I think that they are valid issues.**

[Chip Lindley]

The Shaper Vs. Router thang is Apples and Oranges!! Neither can do what the other does BEST! Ever since I saw the Weaver Door system in KC, I wanted separate shapers to do each operation for door making. In the past 20yrs I have been blessed to find amazing bargains at auction on used shapers.

My first was a huge heavy Moak 1"/3hp, $80! Then the PM#26 1"/5hp, $125! A nice Woodtek (1/2, 3/4, 1") 3hp, $400! A Milw/Delta 1/2"/1hp, $290. A Davis&Wells 1"/2hp, $100. Finally another big Moak 3/4" (no motor) $60! Of course I have replaced bearings and added a motor, but I still do not have invested what ONE decent shaper costs these days! The savings allowed me to add 3 bargain power feeders, and to afford 1-1/4" bore cutter sets! (which run just fine on a 1" spindle with bushings)

All gloats aside, I am now set up to do cope, sticking, panels and edge profiles on 4 shapers without changing cutters until the job is finished. If I must remake a part, no problem! Everything is still set up. I JUST LOVE MY SHAPERS! (I do have 6 or 7 routers also! They DO have their place!)

Look for local used shapers! Heavy machinery does not travel very far unless you haul it home! Bargains are WHERE you find 'em! All mine were within a 60mi. radius of home except one!! (150mi) But, if you need INSTANT GRATIFICATION, read the other posts here, then slap down that Plastic for a NEW one!

[Rick Fisher]

There are some great deal available on used industrial machinery right now. If you have the power. The SCMI T series machines are often 9hp, tiltiing and cheap.

[Jeff Duncan]

It's funny that Chip and JR posted one after the other, as they represent the 2 ends of the spectrum on shapers. Chip is old school (where I am) using multiple shapers each set up with cutters. JR has graduated to the new way of using a single shaper with multiple spindles each having it's own cutter (where I want to be). I believe the interchangeable spindles are a far superior system of working. Of course the admission fee on the new machines is rather steep which is why I'm still using multiples;)
Again really depends on a persons individual needs and budget, but if I had the extra cash, I'd be buying what JR's now using.
good luck,
JeffD

[Matthew Henderson]

Here is another vote for the used market. I found a very new 5HP Delta w/ 1HP 8 speed Delta feeder for $1050 on CL a few months ago. The top had some surface rust, but an afternoon with some dw40 and a scotch brite pad had it back to shining. Although I had to cross the state line and rent a truck to get it, I'm very happy I did. Having never used a shaper before I was a little apprehensive about all the power especially the first time firing it up. (not exactly a quiet machine with a 3" straight cutter bolted on) You just have to go slow, triple check your setups, and read, read, read as much as you can from this site. One pass raised panel cuts are no problem with this setup. :D

[Erik Christensen]

Guys:
Thanks for all the opinions and information – I have found that when trying to make an informed decision more data is a good thing. All your input is appreciated.

To answer some of your questions/comments:

I have no preference for new vs. old. The only decent large tool I currently have is a used Robland table saw. The saw was basically new, but I had to do some machining to get the fence rail installed and then built the mobile base & cabinet for it.

I have been looking locally for over a year for a shaper, planer, & bandsaw among other things and have had no luck. I am reluctant to buy used tools sight unseen and the local equipement has just not been acceptable. Yes there have been cabinet shops selling stuff; but it has been 3 phase motors, too big, thrashed, they want more for it than I was willing to pay, etc.

This is a hobby for me and no, I do not have a budget (a dangerous thing I know, for a guy with serious tool lust). If a $3,000 tool offers me significant features, performance, flexibility or safety over a $1,000 tool I am willing to consider it. As a hobbyist with maybe 20 hours a week available it is unlikely I am going to wear things out, even the Asian sourced tools, but if I do I will buy something better.

Yah I love the idea of 3 shapers all set up with different cutters so I do not have to stop when doing raised panel doors but I have a 3 car garage sized shop so that’s not gonna happen. I have the shop setup with power, air & lights and projects for the next decade – 2 kitchens (we have a guest apt), 3 bathrooms, master bedroom closets/built-ins & furniture, a library, 2 offices, yada, yada. It is time to quit goofing around trying to save a few bucks looking for used and bite the bullet on new.
It’s only money right???

[Chip Lindley]

2004 SCMI T130 Class Shaper!!! I remember J.R.'s post VERY WELL! He also said the *pneumatic spindles* go for about $500 each. (none of my shapers cost that much) J.R. is a businessman who is incorporating this very expensive (even used) shaper system into his business. He will amortize his capital expenditure and recoup his considerable investment at tax time. J.R.'s computerized shaper is used by employees for repeatable setups with a minimum amount of time spent in change-over from one job to the next. I can well appreciate and understand his approach to shaping!

*Old School* ME, on the other hand, am a part-time cabinetmaker, now retired after 37 years riding the rails as a freight conductor. I am my ONLY employee! My objective was to accumulate good, *affordable* equipment over time when the opportunity presented itself. Add up what I have invested in my 6 old shapers, and I could not even buy J.R.'s 10 pneumatic spindles!

We have BOTH succeeded. As a competitive businessman, John does not have time to fiddle around. And, I enjoy restoring an old bargain very much! It's a Win/Win situation. We both have accomplished what we set out to do!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

2)If I go with the 5 HP model should I consider tilting spindle? What advantages/disadvantages are there to a tilting spindle machine? How easy is it to get it back to an exact 90 degree position? What extra use would I get out of a shaper cutter if I can tilt it?
Costs are: ~$1,000 3HP, ~$2,400 5hp & ~$3,000 5HP tilting.


Erik, I'm a new owner of a tilting spindle shaper, and I actually just pulled off some cuts that saved buying a new cutter for. I wanted a bit longer nose on a bullnose, so I just angled a big roundover, one pass each side, and bingo! Being able to tilt the spindle will certainly give you more options with your tooling, which is expensive, and probably save you $. I have a Felder combo, which has spindles similar to JR's SCMI, but not pneumatic. I have two spindles, a 30mm and a 1 1/4". I leave the 30mm in most of the time with a rabbit cutter installed, and just lower it below the table. Rabbets, tenons and chamfers are the most common things I do, so being able to tilt also enables that one setup to chamfer.

A good titlting spindle shaper will have a good accurate indicator for angle. Mine is similar to a tablesaw, but has a clock like device that is more accurate.

I think you would be just fine with only 1 1/4" tooling if you wanted to just have one. I have several Euro cutters, so the 30mm is needed.

Look at some of the European machines, there are some features on them that are not common on the Chinese stuff, yet. I'm partial to Felder, but it's the only Euro machine I've used, so take that for what it's worth.

A bit off subject, but I had a perfecly good little Delta previously, that I rarely used. The reason being that I didn't have good tooling, and it was a bit of a bear to set up. I was never really happy with the inconsistant product. I asked for advise from the Creek crew, and they pointed me in the right direction on tooling, machines, and most importantly, a good power feeder. The new machine, actually a CF 741 combo, is an absolute joy to use, and I really do look for reasons to fire up the shaper on it now. This group of guys saved me from buying a machine that would have underimpressed, and sat idle.

[J.R. Rutter]

Absolutely Chip. You nailed it. At the end of the year, I have to look at a big tax hit and keeping some money vs. spending some and basically getting a 30% discount by being able to write it off. I started with a single Powermatic and eventually had 7 shapers set up with semi-dedicated tooling, digital height gauge retrofits, etc. Now I need that floor space back. For a garage shop, a compact machine that runs as smoothly as possible, with a power feeder will allow someone to mill just about anything. Removeable spindles help here, since you can fit a router collet if needed (but I would probably just use a router). I have had some great old machines pass through my shop over the years as well, including an old Northfield that I sort of restored before selling for what I paid for it.


2004 SCMI T130 Class Shaper!!! I remember J.R.'s post VERY WELL! He also said the *pneumatic spindles* go for about $500 each. (none of my shapers cost that much) J.R. is a businessman who is incorporating this very expensive (even used) shaper system into his business. He will amortize his capital expenditure and recoup his considerable investment at tax time. J.R.'s computerized shaper is used by employees for repeatable setups with a minimum amount of time spent in change-over from one job to the next. I can well appreciate and understand his approach to shaping!

*Old School* ME, on the other hand, am a part-time cabinetmaker, now retired after 37 years riding the rails as a freight conductor. I am my ONLY employee! My objective was to accumulate good, *affordable* equipment over time when the opportunity presented itself. Add up what I have invested in my 6 old shapers, and I could not even buy J.R.'s 10 pneumatic spindles!

We have BOTH succeeded. As a competitive businessman, John does not have time to fiddle around. And, I enjoy restoring an old bargain very much! It's a Win/Win situation. We both have accomplished what we set out to do!

[Mike Heidrick]

I own a 5hp Delta spindle shaper and 3 wheel comatic feeder (Amazon deals). I look for crazy new/newer/brand new old stock equipment for crazy prices and have succeeded in building my crazy hobby shop for less than the 15 JR spindles as well pretty much.

The Delta HD shapers have removable spindles as well but no where near as nice as pneumatic ones. They do however can serve a similar function (and cost 1/3-1/4 as much). Here is the 1 1/4" one. You can install and remove the spindles without changing the height. This way the spindles are all at the same height thus preserving your setup. There is another threaded rod that threads into the bottom of this spinle. The spindle shown slides into the bearing/drive assembly and is keyed to fit. That secondary rod that is threaded into the shown spindle is then fitted with a nut on the bottom end of the drive assembly.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41pVWHCZ1CL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

I so wish there was some way to own JR's two shapers he has for sale. I look at them and just drool. $170 each for a hobby shop is just crazy!

Another dream I have is that Laguna Panel Master shaper system. It is even more at $15K! It is a multi cutter system that has all the cutters for a door already mounted. The heights change, the fence changes, and you are ready for the next cut. The table is a X/Y precision glide system. It is nuts.

Using the multi shaper Weaver door system will change you as well. My mentor's shop has these and he pumps out multiple doors in literally minutes! Those setup with the belt fed feeders are a sight to see.

[Jeff Duncan]

Mike, $1700 for those shapers is not a lot of money at all! Sure for a hobby shop they're a bit overkill, but I paid $1500 new for my Powermatic 27 and those MiniMax are like new and better quality machines. I honestly would have bought one of them myself, but I need to put money aside for either a Holz-Her or Striebig panel saw, so no new shapers this year. Besides if things stay busy I'm holding out for a late model T-130 myself early next year;)

Seeing as Erik has now revealed his intentions for this new aquisition, I'd say if you really want new and want it to work well look into a Delta or Powermatic. I know there's a lot of Grizzly fans around, but I can't see buying a new shaper that costs less than some router tables and expecting very much from it. Or if you had the cash you could buy JR's machine and be a very happy camper:rolleyes:
Sorry, don't mean to sound like I'm trying to be a salesman for him, I just think those are great machines for the price, I'll be quiet now.
JeffD

[Mike Heidrick]

Oh I know the value of JRs machines! Just that $3400 for shapers is not happenning anytime soon for me. Plus the fact that he is in Washington State and I am in IL does not help a dream come true!