Jointer plane sole flatness

[Cavendish McKay]

I've been lurking here for a while; this is my first post.

In his DVD Coarse, Medium and Fine, Christopher Schwarz emphasizes that the sole of a jointer plane needs to be extremely flat over its entire length. He further says that he personally has had difficulty getting the soles of vintage jointers sufficiently flat, and that if one is going to spend a lot of money on a single tool, his recommendation is to spend it on a jointer.

I'm planning to buy a jointer as my next plane (I currently have a LN low angle jack, a block plane, and a couple of no-name old/cheap smoother-sized planes I haven't been able to tune to my satisfaction; I've also ordered an ECE Primus smoother which hasn't arrived yet). I had just about convinced myself that used was the way to go for a jointer, since the cost difference between a #7 Stanley on ebay and (for example) a LN #7 is so large. Now I'm not so sure.

My situation: I'm a fairly new woodworker. I don't have any freestanding power tools (nor do I have space to put them in my shop), so stock preparation is essentially all done with hand tools. I've been sharpening using sandpaper/honing film on plate glass (which is not big enough to lap the sole of a 22" long plane). I don't have any large, verified, dead-flat surfaces in my shop, so I'm not sure how I would lap the sole of a jointer if I had to.

My questions:
(1) Am I justified in being concerned about sole flatness on a used Stanley #7?
(2) As far as new jointers are concerned, is there any functional difference between bevel up and bevel down varieties? I understand that bevel up planes are more versatile in that one need only hone a secondary bevel on the iron to get a steeper cutting angle, and that the adjusters on (bevel down) stanley style planes make mid-cut adjustments possible; is there any other significant reason to pick one over the other?
(3) Is there general agreement/disagreement with Chris Schwarz' statement that a jointer is a good place to drop a lot of money on a single tool, if one is inclined to do so?

Thanks for your responses.

[Mark Singer]

flatness is overrated .... I don't really think much about it
And in the end my work is flat ...joints are tight..I don't shave my arm to check sharpness either

[Brian Kent]

Welcome Cavendish!

I don't have all of your answers, just my experience in the last few years.

A really great friend gave me an old #7 Stanley. It was my first plane restoration. I built up my biceps and lost 40 lbs trying to flatten the sole. If I wee to do it again, I would still buy an old Stanley and tune it up, doing a coarser and faster basic flattening and sharpen the blade real nice.

I had a 7 ft by 1 ft glass door extension that I covered with sandpaper. I don't know what normal people use.

Come to think of it, I bet you would have some luck here or on the Woodworkers Classified putting the word out that you want a refurbished #7. It would be closer to the cost of an e-bay #7 than a new Lie-Nielsen for sure.

[Chuck Tringo]

You could take a look at the Veritas bevel up jointer as well, still a bit pricey but a good deal less than a new LN. I have the Veritas low angle smoother which is bevel up also and I love it. When I move to a jointer its the one Im heavily looking at.

[Jim Koepke]

I go along with Mark, I have a Stanley #7 purchased on eBay for $40. I do not recall having put a straight edge to the bottom of it. It works fine and makes edges as straight as I want them.

For the cost of a new LN or LV, you could likely pick up quite a few of them. Sell the ones you don't like on eBay and be way ahead.

Most of the times I have lapped a sole is because it was very rusty or badly nicked.

My thoughts on buying used planes is look for ones that are intact but look like they were actually used.

Learn about the different type (date of Mfg.) and understand what it means to the use of the plane. I like type 9, 10 & 11. The type 12 is the beginning of the SW period and they often cost more even though they really do not seem that much better imo.

My #7 was cheaper than the average price because the handles were painted blue by a previous owner. A little paint stripper took care of that. I have been careful, and only have gotten a couple of bad planes off eBay that I did not know beforehand were going to be bad, they came from a high school shop. I have bought what were known or thought to be broken or unusable planes for parts. One of them bought as a parts plane turned out to be one of my go to planes.

jtk

[Steve Hamlin]

I've only refurbed two planes and with sufficient funds, it isn't something I'd do again.

A Clifton #7 was my first and only plane for a long while, and I do think the investment in a LN/LV/Clico jointer is probably more justifiable than jack, fore/try or even smoother*.

I have used a properly reground and fettled 40's #5, and though it works well with replacement blade and cap iron, it's still chasing the tail of the modern offerings.

Steve

* Must confess to having quite a lot of racing green paint in my plane drawer

[Eric Brown]

Start with a used #7 Stanley (corrugated soles flatten easier) or 607 (Bedrock). Use it for a while and then also buy a new L-N or L-V. Then you can set one up with a flat blade and one with a chamfered blade. (Might as well get a running start on the slippery slope!)

Eric

[Robert Rozaieski]

II don't have any freestanding power tools (nor do I have space to put them in my shop), so stock preparation is essentially all done with hand tools.
Because you are doing all stock prep with hand tools, a jointer plane will be an essential tool.

I've been sharpening using sandpaper/honing film on plate glass (which is not big enough to lap the sole of a 22" long plane). I don't have any large, verified, dead-flat surfaces in my shop, so I'm not sure how I would lap the sole of a jointer if I had to.
Forget about lapping. Lapping the sole of a plane, especially a jointer, is the fastest way to make the sole convex and likely make it worse than it was when you got it. By all means, you can go the old plane route, wooden or metal plane is your choice, but try it before you flatten it. It might not need to be flattened.

If you feel it does need flattening, I repeat, do not lap it. A much better way to proceed is to scrape or file the sole. When I used metal planes I filed. Now that I use wooden bodied planes I scrape instead.

All you need is a long straightedge, slightly longer than the sole of your plane. A long straight piece of wood will do just fine, no need for a machinist straightedge. Clamp the plane upside down in your bench vise and check it all over with the straightedge. Color the high spots with a pencil on a wooden plane or a Sharpie on a metal plane. Then scrape or file the marks away. Recheck with your straightedge, recolor the high areas, then file or scrape the high spots away. Wash rinse and repeat until the sole is as flat as you want it. I have used this method on metal and wooden planes with soles as long as my current 30" long jointer and in my experience it works far better than lapping.

But again, the best recommendation is to try it first. Not every plane needs to have it's sole flattened. If it works fine, don't fix what isn't broke.

[Rob Luter]

I use two hand planes for jointing; a Stanley #7 and a Veritas LA Jack. I don't have a power jointer so I cut a straight/square edge on the table saw then finish with a hand plane. The Veritas LA jack is plenty long enough for most applications. Your LN LA Jack is a little smaller but should still work well on shorter (<30") lengths. I use the #7 on extra long joints, extra thick stock or if I need to flatten something rather than joint an edge. It's a bit awkward to joint 3/4 stock with the #7. The #7 is not perfectly flat but I never seem to have a problem jointing a straight edge.

One trick I have used to assure good results on glue-ups is to joint both edges at once, bookmatch style. The edges wind up a perfect complement to one another. After I get them straight and true I go over them with the LA Jack extra sharp and set extra light. Sometimes I'll use a smoother with no camber in the blade. The resulting surface quality delivers glue joints that are all but invisible.

[mike holden]

Cavendish,
Flattening the sole of a #7 is a *LOT* of work!
Before you do that, take a board about two-three feet long, and a foot or so wide, and flatten the surface with your plane. Then check it with a straight edge. If it is reasonably flat, then dont bother with the plane's sole, it is flat enough.
Chances are good, that the plane will perform quite well as is.
Remember the point is to make wood flat with the plane, not make the plane flat.
Mike

[Jim Koepke]

Then again, I suspect Junior Strasil is reading this and shaking his head thinking about how you can joint long edges with a block plane if you just make a shooting board first.

jim

[Pam Niedermayer]

Then again, I suspect Junior Strasil is reading this and shaking his head thinking about how you can joint long edges with a block plane if you just make a shooting board first.

jim


Actually, for long edges you'd probably need a sticking board for the length; but your point is excellent. Another alternative not yet discussed is the Clark & Williams jointer plane, a masterpiece and joy to use.

Pam

[David Keller NC]

"I don't have any large, verified, dead-flat surfaces in my shop, so I'm not sure how I would lap the sole of a jointer if I had to."

This is the most telling comment. If you don't have a verifiably flat (within a thousandths or so) surface that's about 36" long, than it will be extremely difficult to get an old jointer flat. Typically, one uses the outfeed table of a powered jointer, though of course if you've access to a granite surface plate of sufficiently large dimension you can use one of those to good effect. They cost thousands new, but with the advent of computer optical dimensioning, there's a lot of old starrets out there for not so much money. You could also potentially build a torsion box out of doubled MDF to get a flat enough surface for lapping.

With respect to whether it matters if the jointer is flat, that depends on what you're going to use it for, and how it's not flat. If it's convex on the bottom by more than a couple of thousandths along its length, the plane will be difficult and frustrating to use. I will tend to either not cut, or gouge and stall depending on whether you place more or less pressure on the tote or the knob. If it's slightly concave along its length, that it will largely be useable, though it will tend to make boards narrower on the ends after several passes down its length.

If you use the jointer along with a roughing plane to 4-square boards, it will matter immensely if the plane is flat. You will be taking at least 4 - 6 passes with the jointer, and errors in the sole will multiply wildly. It is not unusual for a newbie to wind up with a board that's 1/4" thinner in the middle when I've taught a class doing this and his plane was convex along its length. If you use a planer/jointer combo, and are just using the jointer to make one last pass, it might not matter as much, but you can still introduce a lot of error by continuing to plane until you get a shaving along the full length of the board.

Regarding how much work it is to flatten a jointer sole - it can indeed be done on sandpaper, but you need to know what you're doing. It is not enough to blindly start scrubbing - you have to have the frog and blade correctly tensioned, and you must know how to keep equal weight on the front knob and rear tote. And it's a lot of work. Gray cast iron is hard. If you didn't like the amount of work to flatten the back of a blade on a waterstone, you're going to curse the day you were born after you finish flattening a sole of a jointer on silicon carbide wet/dry sandpaper.


So... What to do?

If you simply cannot put the money into a Lie-Nielsen or a Veritas jointer, then the fall-back is to take an accurate straightedge to the flea market or your local antique tool dealer and find one that's pretty close to flat (within a couple of thousandths completely along its length), remove the rust, repair the tote and knob if required, tune the frog with a file to mate well with the sole, and replace the blade with a new Hock. Generally, a Stanely #7 or #8 in good, but not perfect condition, will sell in $75-$100 range. The Hock blade will cost you another $35 or so. Definitely cheaper, but you will have to put some work into the Hock blade, and the plane to get it to perform as well as an out-of-the-box Lie-Nielsen or Veritas, and you will not have the equivalent plane. Lie-Nielsens are based on Stanley Bedrock models, and an antique one of those in good shape will cost you several hundred.

If your time is valuable to you (i.e., you're not retired, you've a steady 50+ hour a week job), and you want to spend your time learning to use a handplane correctly and build woodworking projects, you will be saving yourself a lot of money by purchasing a LN or LV plane.

Finally, keep in mind that a Lie-Nielsen jointer, even at $475, is not an expensive tool. In fact, it's extraordinarily inexpensive for what you're buying. The only reason they look pricey is that they're not compared to the right thing - a Stanley #8 Bedrock, and both the materials and machining that go into a Lie-Nielsen are far more advanced than any Stanley product, Bedrock or otherwise. Similarly, a Lee-Valley plane is also not expensive, though they are cheaper than Lie-Nielsens. Keep in mind, however, that you're not buying the same thing. Some of the materials that go into a Lee Valley and the design are cheaper. That doesn't mean they're not good tools, they are - it's mainly a matter of preference.

[Jim Koepke]

Actually, for long edges you'd probably need a sticking board for the length; but your point is excellent. Another alternative not yet discussed is the Clark & Williams jointer plane, a masterpiece and joy to use.

Pam

A sticking board may be what it is called. Harry had a link to his thread about it a while back. It is a long straight board with another just below the edge. The work is clamped on to it and it is used like a six or eight foot shooting board. My plans are to make one soon to aid in the construction of some cabinets my wife wants me to build.

jim

[Pam Niedermayer]

A sticking board may be what it is called. Harry had a link to his thread about it a while back. It is a long straight board with another just below the edge. The work is clamped on to it and it is used like a six or eight foot shooting board. My plans are to make one soon to aid in the construction of some cabinets my wife wants me to build.

jim

Yep, that's it. There are some graphics at http://www.fullchisel.com/alburnam2.htm#Plane%20Apps, which, btw, is part of Alburnam's Archive, a great reference.

Pam

[Mark Singer]

The process of planning flat true surfaces is to use a plane and a straight edge and winding sticks . As you check the surface with the straighedge or sticks mark the high spots with a pencil. Plane those areas and check again. Repeat this. Soon the straight edge and surface should yield no light as you sight it.
This method will allow you the same results with a #4 as a #7 ! It does require more skill with a smaller plane. When I hang 8 foot doors I often work with a smaller plane .
A lot of warping can be taken out when boards are glued up. This takes some experience. I usually lay up the boards for appearance , but if flatness is an issue, I factor that in to the final arrangement of boards. It is amazing what you can remove by placing opposing curve side by side. If you plan to hand plane the face then all the grain should be oriented consistent with the tree growth... pith side aligned.

So the flatness of a number 7 is not so all important to me.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks Pam, that is an interesting and informative site.

jim