Another one for home theater gurus: Power Conditioners

[Matt Meiser]

I recently replaced almost every part of my home theater system to accomodate my new HD TV. In the stores I'm seeing these Monster power conditioners (http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Cable-2400-Definition-Powercenter/dp/B000RHMFY0) that start around $150 and go way up from there. They make it sound like the picture will be horrible (mine isn't) and your equipment is in grave danger without them. Are they really any better than a 1/2 way decent surge protector? So far I only see them from Monster, so part of me wonders if its not a problem they invented.

[Mitchell Andrus]

This is the category with laptop screen cleaners.

[Paul Atkins]

And DVD rewinders?

[David Christopher]

the power conditioner is just a transformer and it isolates from house power. it does take a little "noise" out of the signal but if your picture is good allready I wouldnt bother... but I would get a good surge protector ( one with a guarantee that if your system burns up they will pay )

[Eric DeSilva]

Take this with a grain of salt, since I'm a reformed audiophile. Two things going on here. First, protection against surges (read lightning). That is a reasonable precaution, but you don't need monster for that (frankly, even as an audiophile, I wouldn't buy anything from that company--overpriced and underengineered).

Second, noisy lines. Power lines do have noise. You would think that decent equipment manufacturers would do things inside electronics to shield them and filter the AC lines, but that hasn't been my experience. Noisy lines can translate into noise in other parts of the system--blacks that aren't quite black, etc. I'm not a videophile, so I can't comment on their value for televisions.

I can say that they do have value with some high end systems in audio. For example, at the height of my bachelor audiophile insanity, I had a pair of Martin Logan Prodigy electrostatic speakers and a stratospherically expensive stereo, complete with turntable and its own home insurance rider. The Martin Logans had a logo lit in blue under the electrostatic panel, which used to annoy the crap out of me, and it was always on. Well, I installed a PS Audio line conditioner in my system--oddly enough because I wanted remote control over the tube amplifiers. Well, the little blue lights went off. I ended up going back to the manual and learned, quite to my surprise, that the little blue logo light was an indication a signal was present on the speaker inputs, which caused the Martin Logans to then charge up the panels. In other words, AC line noise was sufficient to trigger the sensors, even though everything--including the power amplifiers--was powered off. Putting in a line filter and fixing the AC noise made that go away. And, yes, the difference was audible. Since then, I've put line conditioners in all my heavy audio rigs.

Which all begs the question of whether you will hear (or see) the difference and whether the difference you hear (or see) is worth the price of admission. Buy it, try it, and if you don't feel like its worth it, just return it and go get a decent surge protector.

[Tim Morton]

I did a lot of research on this...and since i needed a power strip anyway..i spent a few more bucks and bought this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000514OG

i believe it was a bit less when i bought it...it gives me great satisfaction to know that when i get a power sag that it is adjusting the voltage to protect my stuff.

[Myk Rian]

If it says Monster Cable on it, it is overpriced. Get a UPS backup. They do basically the same thing, plus keep the equipment running for those short power drops and surges.

[Matt Sollars]

i was also going to say that power conditioners seem to be geared more towards the audio end of things. i have heard systems with and without....and there is a slight difference in quality of sound. (read-less noise)

never buy monster......ever.

if you decide to go with a battery backup/power conditioner (great idea in my opinion)....i really like APS (company name). Solid products...awesome customer service. you wouldn't be dissappointed.

best of luck to you
matt

[Pat Germain]

Yup. If you truly want to protect your hardware, a UPS is the way to go. A true UPS will isolate your hardware from the power source. You can laugh at lightning storms. (Unless it actually hits your hardware directly.)

[Dan Friedrichs]

Don't buy it, or even a UPS for that matter - just get a good surge protector.

One important note: with digital signals, noise on the AC line doesn't matter. Your digital TV, DVD player, etc, won't notice.

The worst possible case is that you may hear some very, very, very faint noise on your speakers (analog audio amplifiers may pick it up). But if there's that much noise on the AC line that you can hear it, you've got bigger problems...

[Craig Coney]

I would presume with today's design standards, that some noise filtering would be designed into the device.

For the average person, I think that the line noise you would notice on the speakers or on the picture would be barely noticeable .

I purchased a UPS Line conditioner at Costco that is a line conditioner, surge arrestor, and UPS for less than $100, mainly for the lightning protection and brief power interruptions we have around here from March-October.

I think most could do without for every day use and typical home theatres.

[Christopher Stahl]

I use 2 Smart UPS 1000 units in my living room and 1 at each TV throughout the house. Reason being, it's protection for my AV equipment. There are a lot of spinning disks floating around in DVR's, AppleTVs and the such. Most of this equipment does not appreciate power bumps, brown outs and power outages period. We occasionally will have the power bumps or 30 second outages and all my equipment could be running and this can be dangerous for your equipment.

If you have any investment in an expensive flat panel and AV equipment, it's spending the $100 or $200 to protect. Personally, a surge protector doesn't cut it.

[Greg Peterson]

Matt,

Check out the Furman PL PLUS II Power Conditioner / Voltmeter.

Brief description:

A front-panel meter provides precise monitoring of incoming AC line voltage from 90 to 128V. Unit has 8 rear-panel outlets and one front-panel outlet, a 15-amp rating with circuit breaker, retractable LED rack lights with on/off/dimmer control, BNC back-panel connector for gooseneck lamp with front-panel switch, and a front-panel circuit breaker.

These are pretty cool devices and have been around for a long time. Used mainly for musicians gear, which often times don't see the cleanest power. I'm thinking with a residential setting it's probably over engineered. Plus it has these really cool pop out lights that shine down or up.

[Jeff Bratt]

I recently replaced almost every part of my home theater system to accommodate my new HDTV. In the stores I'm seeing these Monster power conditioners (http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Cable-2400-Definition-Powercenter/dp/B000RHMFY0) that start around $150 and go way up from there. They make it sound like the picture will be horrible (mine isn't) and your equipment is in grave danger without them. Are they really any better than a 1/2 way decent surge protector? So far I only see them from Monster, so part of me wonders if it's not a problem they invented.

I'll second the notion that Monster has a questionable reputation. The "bad picture" scare tactics - as you've already seen - are not credible. An interesting (and somewhat long) story about other Monster shenanigans - http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/blue-jeans-strikes-back)
Plus some (possibly useful) information about HDMI cables - http://www.bluejeanscable.com/index.htm


I had a pair of Martin Logan Prodigy electrostatic speakers...

In other words, AC line noise was sufficient to trigger the sensors, even though everything--including the power amplifiers--was powered off. Putting in a line filter and fixing the AC noise made that go away. And, yes, the difference was audible.

Since electrostatic speakers require a unique, high-voltage power supply, this example is probably not applicable to other, more conventional stereo equipment. Your experience is probably more of an indication that the power supplies in those expensive Martin Logans was just not filtered well enough.

AC line noise rejection is also important for audio amplifiers, but you shouldn't have to add a line filter to get good audio equipment to work to spec.


Don't buy it, or even a UPS for that matter - just get a good surge protector.

One important note: with digital signals, noise on the AC line doesn't matter. Your digital TV, DVD player, etc, won't notice.

I agree that a UPS is not needed - unless you really need to keep watching or listening when the power goes out. How much you ought to spend on a surge protector depends (IMHO) on where you live. Here in SoCal, I might see a thunderstorm once every 5 years. However, during summertimes in Texas, thunderstorms and power surges are often a daily occurrence. And power surges can indeed destroy your expensive electronic equipment. Look at the insurance that comes with a surge protector - how much $$s and under what conditions are they paid - are valid considerations in choosing this kind of protection device. Just remember that if a lightning strike is really, really close, then nothing is going to save your electronics from damage.

[Myk Rian]

A UPS isn't needed? You put one on the computer for the same reason you would want one on your home theater equipment.

[Russ Filtz]

Well, PCs (harddisks) can fry themselves or you lose data when powered down instantly. Not so much with HT equipment. Except maybe a Tivo unit? Now a HTPC is a PC though, so a UPS is needed! :cool:

[Christopher Stahl]

That was the point I was making. There is plenty of equipment out there that have disk drives, like DVR's, AppleTVs, Popcorn Hour, XBox360, PS3. Some HT equipment will power itself back on after power outages. If your power is flickering on and off every couple seconds, that doesn't make equipment happy.

Besides, you can buy a UPS for the same price as those expensive surge protectors. Why wouldn't you buy one???

[Dan Mages]

You might want to look at a household surge protector. They are usually in the $150 price range and attach directly to the circuit panel for the house.

Secondly, don't get suckered into really expensive HDMI cables. Digital signals work just as well on a $5 cable as they do on $50 cables. I reccomend looking at Monoprice for any cables you might need.

Dan

[Eric DeSilva]

Since electrostatic speakers require a unique, high-voltage power supply, this example is probably not applicable to other, more conventional stereo equipment. Your experience is probably more of an indication that the power supplies in those expensive Martin Logans was just not filtered well enough.

AC line noise rejection is also important for audio amplifiers, but you shouldn't have to add a line filter to get good audio equipment to work to spec.

The signal detector is what is used to turn on the HV supply, so I'm not sure I buy that. I do tend to find a tangible difference--for audio--in using power conditioners, but my stereo systems tend to be higher end than typical... My sense is that audio designers do not necessarily know how to design power supplies...

[Matt Meiser]

Secondly, don't get suckered into really expensive HDMI cables. Digital signals work just as well on a $5 cable as they do on $50 cables. I reccomend looking at Monoprice for any cables you might need.

I ordered a ton of stuff from Monoprice. I ended up needing almost all new cabling by the time I figured out how to connect everthing and because some need to be longer with my new entertainment center design. I did have one bad connector, a F-to-RCA adapter I used to run the wiring for the subwoofer through the basement using coax, but everhing else seems really nice and that could have happened with any brand.

[Ed Labadie]

I use a line conditioner on my home audio system. It does clean up the incoming electrical current as has been said. The main bonus to me is it also acts as a main on off switch for the entire system, correctly sequencing the order in which the components turn on & off. Very important when you run a amplifier and pre-amp setup.

This is the one I use: http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/ProductDetails.htm?Id=29


Ed

[Dave Lehnert]

As far as surge protectors go the local power company put a whole house protector on at the meter. I pay like $1.99 a month for insurance if anything would be damaged the power company will pay. (or so they say)

[Jeff Bratt]

The signal detector is what is used to turn on the HV supply, so I'm not sure I buy that. I do tend to find a tangible difference--for audio--in using power conditioners, but my stereo systems tend to be higher end than typical... My sense is that audio designers do not necessarily know how to design power supplies...

I agree that any power line noise problems will probably show up in the audio part of a system, and not in the picture of an HDTV setup. I was pointing out that most speakers are powered by an audio amplifier, and do not have that additional connection to the AC lines that electrostatics require. Plus, our ears are much more sensitive to noise than our eyes.

[Jeff Bratt]

Well, PCs (harddisks) can fry themselves or you lose data when powered down instantly. Not so much with HT equipment. Except maybe a Tivo unit? Now a HTPC is a PC though, so a UPS is needed! :cool:

The hard-drives themselves are remarkably robust in power loss situations. They utilize the inertia of their spindle to internally generate enough power to shut themselves down in a safe and controlled manner. The other parts of a computer system need a UPS much more than the hard-drive. Without knowing the internal details of a Tivo, I suspect that it is also quite resistant to power losses and will not generally "fry itself" or "lose data files" if the power just goes away. Note that I am saying that power surges are still a concern... for any electronic equipment.

[Jeff Wright]

Living in Florida, I experience both numerous powerful thunderstorms and typically unreliable electric service with power interuption almost once a month. If I were to purchase an inexpensive surge protector (rather than the expensive options), what joule rating (and recommendation for manufacturer) would I want for a large LCD HDTV? (My receiver, BluRay and DVR and cable digital box are all on one of those previously slammed Monster surge boxes - my entertainment center is designed in such a manner that running the HDTV plug to the MOnster box is inaccessible.)

[Al Willits]

Matt, go out and clean your shop, that'll do as much for ya as as the over priced bs that monster sells.

Mono priced and Blue Jeans cable are two good places to get cables.

There's a ton of over priced claptrap out there all designed to take your money and suppoisly make your system better...taking your money is about all they do.

Al

[Jeff Bratt]

Living in Florida, I experience both numerous powerful thunderstorms and typically unreliable electric service with power interuption almost once a month. If I were to purchase an inexpensive surge protector (rather than the expensive options), what joule rating (and recommendation for manufacturer) would I want for a large LCD HDTV? (My receiver, BluRay and DVR and cable digital box are all on one of those previously slammed Monster surge boxes - my entertainment center is designed in such a manner that running the HDTV plug to the MOnster box is inaccessible.)

My beef with Monster is that their stuff can be overpriced, or overhyped, not that it doesn't work. That box mentioned aboce has high rated surge protection capability, and a high dollar insurance advertised - I would not be thinking about replacing one you already own. For buying a new one, I'd compare the specs, plus price, between different manufacturers offerings. Sorry, I don't have specific brand recommendations - I just don't have to deal with this particular problem quite so much as you do.

Some quick Googling:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector
http://www.powerhousetv.com/stellent2/groups/public/documents/pub/phtv_yh_su_000413.hcsp

[Matt Meiser]

We went to Costco tonight and they had a 1000VA Tripplite UPS for "computer or home theater" which means it is thin and as a display that can be rotated to put it in tower or flat mode. Price was $99, so I bought one. I figure the UPS will be nice to protect the DVR.

[Frank Hagan]

I had repeated problems with my Dish DVR ... three units died within the first few months ... until I installed an APC power conditioner. My area evidently has a lot of "brownouts", where you don't lose power completely but the voltage dips lower, and the power conditioner's main function is that it regulates the line voltage to within 1% of the 115/120v I'm supposed to be getting. Because its line powered instead of battery powered, I don't have the drop-outs when the battery starts to wear (like I'm having on my computer equipment right now).

When I do my home theater ... now on hold for another year or so ... I'll buy another line conditioner for the electronics.

[Matt Meiser]

OK, another related question--now that I have the UPS, what should I put on battery backed vs. just the "protected" outlets. I figure the DirecTV DVR for sure on UPS, probably the DVD recorder. AV receiver and 46" LCD TV are pretty big loads I assume. VCR rarely gets used anymore. No Blu-Ray player (which I want) or Wii (which the LOMLs want) yet. I have 4 protected and 4 battery-backed outlets at my disposal.

[Russ Filtz]

The hard-drives themselves are remarkably robust in power loss situations. They utilize the inertia of their spindle to internally generate enough power to shut themselves down in a safe and controlled manner.

Yea, not really talking about hardware failure. It's more about hosing your Windows install by repeated hard power offs. I've had that happen several times due to recalcitrant software (usually games!) hard locking Windows and having to manually power off or pull the plug.

[Art Mulder]

AV receiver and 46" LCD TV are pretty big loads I assume.

Hey Matt, why assume?
Shouldn't the wattage be listed on the nameplate on the back of the unit? Or you could buy/borrow a "Kill-a-watt (http://store.greengadgets.ca/products/P4400.html)" type of gizmo (My local borg now carries these in their lightbulb section, and it's cheaper than on that web link) and just plug it in and measure the usage.

Once you've got the actual usage, it's just a bit of math to tell you how long it'll stay powered up by the UPS in the event of an outage. Then it's up to you how much run-time you want.

[Frank Hagan]

In terms of what you want to protect, the DVR is really a computer, so put it on a protected outlet. For the rest of the equipment, choose by the value you assign to it ... either monetary or how much you will miss it if a surge does take it out. For example, you may spend more on your receiver than your flat panel TV, but if you had to choose one over the other to be out of commission, which would it be (I suspect you would want the AV receiver to be down ... you can always use the TV's speakers as back up).

[Brent Ring]

DVR, Receiver, DVD Recorder, and the LCD are good to put on the UPS. That pretty much consumes it.

[Michael Poller]

I have a APC BE750G UPS/Surge protector. It has 10 outlets and 4 are controlled by a master. It also gives me about 20 minutes of power to shut things down if I lose power. Something a conditioner won't do for you.

I have the 50" plasma hooked up to the master outlet and when I turn it off, it also turns off my Onkyo receiver, subwoofer, and PS3. Then when I turn the TV on, those items power on, TV, then receiver then subwoofer and PS3. It senses the power drop from turning the TV off and cuts power to the other items. I've had this for over a year now and it has worked flawlessly.

My DVR/cable box remains on all the time for recording purposes.

It sits quietly and neatly behind the entertainment center and has worked great in the few moments of power loss we've had around here so far this winter.

What I like most is both no need to get another component that sits in view, and that it turns off those pieces that continuously draw power even when turned off.