best $100 dovetail saw [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Rob Luter

01-27-2009, 12:51 PM

I have the LN and am very happy so far. I considered the Lee Valley but was put off by the looks. That sounds petty, especially considering that I have (and love) a number of their other non-traditional looking products. I suspect the LV saw works exceptionally well. The LN saw was a better match visually and in terms of feel to my other backsaws: Disston, Jackson, Atkins, and Bishop. As I continue this journey down the slippery saw slope (comes right after the plane slope) I plan on a couple new joinery saws from LN or Wenzloff too. My old timers work pretty well, but the new dovetail saw cuts like a scalpel by comparison.

John Keeton

01-27-2009, 1:22 PM

I have NO experience with dovetail saws outside of my recent purchase of the LV. But, I can say that it is an amazing saw - very comfortable, cuts clean and aggressively. I am sure the others are fine, as well. Just wanted to express my satisfaction with this saw - and, I like the look!

Steven McLeavin

01-27-2009, 1:48 PM

about the tacky looking LV saw...I want to buy a good dovetail saw and keep it until I die. I have a feeling that 50 years from now the Lie Nielsen saw will still be pretty and the LV will still be ugly...it is petty though I know.

Wilbur Pan

01-27-2009, 2:01 PM

Gyokucho model #311 rip dozuki, about $30-35.

If you want to try a saw that cuts on the pull stroke, that is. ;)

But I happen to think this is the best inexpensive saw around for cutting dovetails.

Alan DuBoff

01-27-2009, 2:10 PM

I kinda felt that way about the looks at first also, but it's grown on me some and there really is quite an amount of r&d to go into those saws.

The most amazing thing really is that Rob Lee can bring you this saw at sub $70. It is a price point that there is not a lot of players, and there are quite a few lesser quality saws that sell for more (PAX, GARLICK, LYNX, etc...). I would certainly be hard pressed to produce a saw and be able to sell it for that price point myself.

At least the LV has a decent looking handle, and you can make your own for it if you like.

Just like any saw, the LV will go dull, and knowing how to keep it sharp will go a long way to enjoying it. It has good clearance to get into a saw vise, let's hope the folks that buy them will do that! ;)

Alan Schwabacher

01-27-2009, 2:14 PM

I'm not an expert, but at a recent woodworking show I tried all the dovetail saws Lee Valley had on display. The new modern looking saw works quite well. However, even though I have not extensively used Japanese saws, the Japanese Rip-Tooth Dozuki 60T04.04 was far better for me than any of the others in cutting fast, cleanly, and exactly where I wanted.

I suspect that I learned at least as much about me as about the saws with this experiment.

John Keeton

01-27-2009, 2:23 PM

...50 years from now the Lie Nielsen saw will still be pretty and the LV will still be ugly...it is petty though I know.
Consistency - a very important thing in woodworking:D:D! One must look good, as well!

Steven, I fully understand the "look" issue, and it is a matter of personal taste. For a traditionalist, the LN is a much finer looking saw - and, no doubt, a quality tool. If money was not an issue, even I would buy the LN.

While I can afford either, I would prefer to use my play money on other toys. For someone that really just wants functionality and "consistency", the LV does a great job at an affordable price.

Mark Singer

01-27-2009, 2:51 PM

At $35 the tashiro queen dovetail is a fine contender
A fine kerf and straight as the line you scribe

John Dykes

01-27-2009, 3:01 PM

I'm taking a class with the Red Rocks Fine Woodworking program. The Director, Rand Richards, was doing a hands on comparison of what he has \ likes \ dislikes. As you can see from the comments thus far, a great deal is personal preference - as was his point as well. He's not a big fan of the Japanese saws - but pointed out, again, it was not his preference. The school has a stock of Adria, and a few LNs. He had recently received the new LV dovetail saw - and was visibly amazed at its performance.

That said, I own 3 Adria saws (1 dovetail, 2 small tenon saws), but am saving my pennies for a Wenzloff large tenon saw.

Dave Spaeder

01-27-2009, 6:20 PM

I have a Wenzloff and the LV. The Wenzloff is a beautiful saw in both looks and performance, but I feel like the LV hangs with it well, especially when you factor in the price difference. It's possible that as I become more proficient with Western dovetail saws, I'll notice a bigger difference in their respective performance. But the LV is a phenomenal value.

Pam Niedermayer

01-27-2009, 9:08 PM

LV offers two Japanese saws that fit your bill and work great:

1) Professional Dozuki and 2) Rip-tooth dozuki

Also, the straight handled LN dovetail saw is a treat, just as good as the Pro dozuki.

With any of these you'll be done with a normal dovetail in two or three strokes, at least that's how many it takes me, in hardwood.

Pam

Rick Erickson

01-27-2009, 10:43 PM

Steve,
Is $100 the magic number? I ask because Rob Cosman is coming out with a new dovetail saw very soon. It will be a little higher than $100 though (not sure of the exact price). I had a chance to use the prototype at a recent seminar and boy was it sweet! He solved the problem a lot of people have with 'starting the cut'. The first few inches on the end of the saw has a very fine TPI before it changes back to a typical TPI - don't think progressive pitch (it isn't that). The saw was very well balanced and felt great in the hand. I have a LN and love it - his just takes that design to a whole new level and feel.

Matt Campbell

01-27-2009, 10:58 PM

I recently tried the new LV, and I really enjoyed it. I even like how it looks. :D I got it at the Woodworking Show which means no tax, free shipping, and 10% off. $58 total.

Peter Evans

01-28-2009, 12:22 AM

Don't forget antique English saws. My favourite is a Taylor Brothers dovetail saw at present. The other dovetail saws I have, in order of preference include Gramercy, Wenzloff, antique Spear & Jackson. One reason why I might prefer the Taylor saw is that it was sharpened by an expert (I have sharpened a lot of saws but am still not really there). I have compared the above with Adria and LN, both good saws - and at some stage I want to try the LV.

cheers
Peter

Steven McLeavin

01-28-2009, 12:28 AM

Joel Moskowitz

01-28-2009, 3:40 AM

about to push the button on the gramercy kit..
link (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=GT-DKIT.XX&Category_Code=CGT)
Do I need to buy the saw nut assy and the split nut driver or does the kit come with everything I need? And any suggestions on which file to buy for sharpening this saw? Thanks!

The kit comes with everything you need except the handle.
the blade comes hand filed and hammer set so you won't need to worry about sharpening for awhile. When you do either get a needle file (we stock them) or send it back to us for our sharpening service.

joel
Gramercy Tools

have fun!!!

Alan DuBoff

01-28-2009, 4:02 AM

the blade comes hand filed and hammer set so you won't need to worry about sharpening for awhile.
Joel,

What is the procedure for hammer setting? Do you use a small saw maker's anvil to do that? I know that Andrew Lunn also hammer sets his saws.

Does this work better than a pistol set?

Joel Moskowitz

01-28-2009, 7:54 AM

Joel,

What is the procedure for hammer setting? Do you use a small saw maker's anvil to do that? I know that Andrew Lunn also hammer sets his saws.

Does this work better than a pistol set?

the teeth are too small to use a regular setting hammer and anvil. So we use a punch and some proprietary tooling. it does take practice to hit the teeth in the same place but the slight variation you get even with practice is a good thing. it's minor variation on position on the tooth but not the amount of set.

with a hammer and punch you get a sharper bend than you get with a pistol grip and you avoid bending the saw plate and adding distortion just about the teeth.

But the way the punch idea is pretty traditional for fine pitched saws. for courser saws a setting hammer is used.

John Keeton

01-28-2009, 11:41 AM

I recently tried the new LV, and I really enjoyed it. I even like how it looks. :D I got it at the Woodworking Show which means no tax, free shipping, and 10% off. $58 total.
Brag, brag, brag!!:rolleyes: Some of us paid the full price:(, but still worth it! Actually, I am glad you got a great deal on a great saw Matt!

Larry Fox

01-28-2009, 12:50 PM

Not a hand-cut dovetail expert (yet?) but I have and use a Wenzloff. Aside from the excellent quality and feel of the saw, the thing that I like most about it is that fact that you have access to it's maker - Mike Wenzloff. He reads posts here and replies. Have exchanged a few emals with him and it is clear that the guy values you as a customer. Not saying others don't (especially Lee Valley) but I have not had the owner reply to an email personally. Easily worth the extra $25.00 to me.

Archie England

01-29-2009, 11:51 AM

I've contemplated purchasing a LN, Adria, Gramercy, or Wenzloff for a while but haven't done so b/c I've adopted several old ophans to their new home--8", 10", 12", 14", 16", 18", and a couple longer backsaws, too. Most are Disstons; a few, Jackson or Atkins.

While reading this post with interest, I'm curious how these newer saws cut compared to the older ones. Are they comparable? I would appreciate some imput, even if this needs to be a different thread.

thanks,

AE

Alan DuBoff

01-29-2009, 1:09 PM

While reading this post with interest, I'm curious how these newer saws cut compared to the older ones. Are they comparable? I would appreciate some imput, even if this needs to be a different thread.
This is kinda like a trick question. A vintage saw that is tuned up and sharpened will be able to perform just as well as a newer saw, IMO. The key is in being able to tune them up and sharpen them.

A quiver of vintage saws will work just fine.

Spend the time to learn how to tune them up and get them sharp, once you can do that, you can do it with any saw, new or old.

When you buy a new saw, it will be tuned up, at least all the ones you mentioned. Soon, after a little bit of use it will not be and as you continue to use them more, the more you will knock off the edge on the teeth.

Being able to sharpen your saws is way more valuable than buying the fanciest saws available. Don't get me wrong, new tools are better in some regards, but it all gets down to how sharp the teeth are when you use it.

Some hardwoods like Hickory, Mesquite, or Purple Heart will really knock the edge off.

The most common problem with handsaws is that they are not sharpened properly. It is not hard, it doesn't take that much time, but it is something that you need to invest some time in to learn.

Don Orr

01-29-2009, 1:42 PM

I am mostly a turner but have a growing interest in hand tools. I have been adding to my arsenal as I find good deals on quality tools. My favorite $100 dovetail saw is the only-used-once LN I bought recently for just that, $100. Man is that one sweet tool. Cuts like butter in hard maple-the only thing I have tried it on so far. (Thanks again Jesse !) I've never had a chance to try anything else of any quality. I had tried the LN at a show before and knew I liked it.

I also took the time to read Pete Tarrans saw sharpening tutorial and attempt sharpening a saw. Not as hard as most of us think. Filing Rip is actually quite easy as the angle is simple to maintain straight across. It's even fun to take a beat up old junk saw and sharpen it and use it ! I still need a lot of practice, but I'm not intimidated by it anymore.

I'm diggin' the quiet side of woodworking.

Danny Thompson

01-29-2009, 2:41 PM

. . . you have access to it's maker - Mike Wenzloff. He reads posts here and replies. . . . .

Sort of like that Gramercy guy--what's his name?

Larry Fox

01-29-2009, 4:39 PM

Sort of like that Gramercy guy--what's his name?

HA - now that is somewhat embarassing on my part. :D I didn't know Joel Moskowitz was behind Gramercy (I looked it up when I read Danny's reply). Add to that to the fact that he has contributed twice to this thread and you have the makings of a major faux pas. Sorry Joel.

Joel Moskowitz

01-29-2009, 8:37 PM

HA - now that is somewhat embarassing on my part. :D I didn't know Joel Moskowitz was behind Gramercy (I looked it up when I read Danny's reply). Add to that to the fact that he has contributed twice to this thread and you have the makings of a major faux pas. Sorry Joel.

No worries Larry. I see you are from PA. Are you coming to the "connect to the craft show" tomorrow and Saturday in Philly? if you do you can try out all the saws and both Tim (saw designer and maker) and myself will be there. We will also have our saw specta chart for distribution - which I will post on my blog soon - just havn't had the time.

joel

Larry Fox

01-29-2009, 8:45 PM

I might be there Joel. I have to work on Saturday but I will be pretty close to Alan's place so I might try and swing by.

Joel Moskowitz

01-29-2009, 8:53 PM

I might be there Joel. I have to work on Saturday but I will be pretty close to Alan's place so I might try and swing by.

Come Friday - we are there till 8:00 PM and I think it will be less crowded on Friday.

James Carmichael

01-30-2009, 7:31 AM

Ditto the Tashiro. I believe the Woodcrat and Traditional Woodworker Dozukis are the same saw. Woodcraft frequently offers it on sale for around $30.

If you prefer western saws, another option is to pick up a vintage Disston #14 or similar back saw, and have it filed rip.

Steven McLeavin

01-30-2009, 9:43 PM

well here is my first attempt at the saw handle..i think i might give it one more try
http://woodninja.com/download/file.php?id=18

John Sanford

01-31-2009, 2:07 AM

Gadzooks man, where did you find an avocado big enough to make that saw handle? :eek:

:p

Michael Gibbons

01-31-2009, 7:52 AM

Brag, brag, brag!!:rolleyes: Some of us paid the full price:(, but still worth it! Actually, I am glad you got a great deal on a great saw Matt!We use that word around here.. what was that word....? Oh Yeah-"GLOAT"!

Steven McLeavin

01-31-2009, 2:09 PM

Gadzooks man, where did you find an avocado big enough to make that saw handle? :eek:

:p

even harder was finding a beaver willing to gnaw it to shape. :D

Steve Sawyer

02-01-2009, 12:35 AM

I have the Gramercy 9" dovetail, and have used the new LV dovetail saw. I love my Gramercy, but I have to admit that the LV works REAL nice, and is a great value.

Alan DuBoff

02-01-2009, 4:38 AM

I have the Gramercy 9" dovetail, and have used the new LV dovetail saw. I love my Gramercy, but I have to admit that the LV works REAL nice, and is a great value.
We see similar comments about how nice the LV saw works.

What will be interesting is to see if this effects people in any way to learn how to sharpen their own saw. Like all tools, those sharp saws that shipped from LV will only be sharp for a short time.

I suspect we'll see many of the people claiming how sharp those saws are in a year or two down the road, without bringing a file to them once...:rolleyes:

I hope the owners prove me wrong. :)

The bottom line is that no matter how sharp a saw is, or how well it cuts, if one didn't get their own saw to that point, one should invest the time to get it the same, so that one can do it for themselves whenever one needs to use the saw.

Ron Conlon

02-01-2009, 10:14 AM

How about the Gramercy kit from Tools for Working Wood? It is $99 and you just have to make the handle. The blade comes presharpened. Right at your price point and lets you customize the handle.

george wilson

02-01-2009, 1:25 PM

I haven't seen a LV saw yet. The trouble with most dovetail saws,Lie Nielson included,is that they are not thin enough. .015" is a good thickness for a dovetail. I made all the cabinet maker size saws currently in use in Colonial Williamsburg,and made the dovetails .015. They are so thin that their cut is the same width as a sharp scribe line. This induces accuracy. Many makers in the 18th. and 19th.C. made dovetails this thin. Some modern makers have told me that they are afraid users will break the .015" blades,so they don't make them less than .020". Fortunately,a few of the straight handle German dovetail saws are .015". I make all of my own saws,and you could too. I use 1095 spring steel. It is available from Manhatten Supply. 1095 is MUCH better than the lower grade spring steels most manufacturers use. You can tell the difference when sharpening ! You could just take the blade out of the back of an old back saw,tap the back down a bit tighter to hold the thinner blade,and carefully hammer the back down over the new blade. Of course,you'll have to file the teeth from scratch. Back in the 60's,when I had limited equipment,I would take a coarse tooth rotary file,and roll it along the blank blade,hitting the rotary file with a plastic hammer as I rolled it. This made evenly spaced marks on the blank saw blade,and served as a guide to filing the teeth on by hand. It worked fine. You can usually get 1095 steel as BLUE shim stock . Small assortments can be bought that way,usually a maximum of 6" wide. To cut the steel down narrower,a sheet metal shear works fine,as the hardened spring steel cracks ahead of the shear's cutter. Or,clamp the steel in a smooth jawed machinist's vise,and take a sharp cold chisel. Hold the edge of the cold chisel at a downward angle so it shears the spring steel flush with the vise jaws. Keep moving the steel along and chiseling till you have cut the length of the blade. The steel held BELOW the vise jaws will not be distorted. Lacking a smooth jawed vise,clamp the shim stock between 2 pieces of steel bar stock,and then clamp the bars in the jaws of the vise,so the serrations don't touch your saw blade.

Alan DuBoff

02-01-2009, 2:45 PM

George,

Welcome to SMC.

I believe almost all makers these days use 1095 spring steel.

For some of the saws I've made, .020" works well, even better than .018". I know there is a saw maker using .015". I use .018" for most stuff and ordered .018" recently to use on 2" x 12" plates.

I made a saw .018" that was 2" x 13" long and didn't feel it was thick enough to sustain over time, so color me in that group of folks that doesn't think .015" is thick enough for that long of a plate.

Would work well for an 8" or 9" plate, IMO, but 13" would be stretching it.

Pam Niedermayer

02-01-2009, 4:02 PM

I haven't seen a LV saw yet. The trouble with most dovetail saws,Lie Nielson included,is that they are not thin enough. .015" is a good thickness for a dovetail. ... Fortunately,a few of the straight handle German dovetail saws are .015". ...

Hmmm, good thing I use Japanese saws that typically run 0.34 mm, or 0.01339 inches.

Pam

george wilson

02-01-2009, 4:39 PM

The old Disstons were possibly the finest saws in the World.

Alan DuBoff

02-01-2009, 4:50 PM

The old Disstons were possibly the finest saws in the World.
George,

Disston certainly made quality tools for their day, but they did so at the expense of craftsmanship. During their reign on the handsaw throne, they did a good job at removing hand crafting from saw making to be able to produce saws to meet the demand of their marketing arm, which was a fairly muscular arm I might add...

It was the industrial revolution that Disston used to accomplish such, as it was the industrial revolution that eclipsed Disston with power tools as the quality of their tools continued to go downhill, until finally in the 50s when those Disston saws were just a good saw plate with a blocky handle on them.

I know your not fond of slotting a solid piece of steel for the back, and I tend to lean towards that style. But still, a hand crafted saw with a folded back will be of higher quality than the Disston saws were around the turn of the 20th century.

Sure, Disston produced some of the finest saws in their day, but partially because they were buying up saw makers and putting them out of business also, to eliviate the competition. Same tactics we see companies like microsoft doing today to get an advantage. In fact, there are a lot of simularities between Disston and Gates. :rolleyes:

george wilson

02-01-2009, 4:55 PM

So,you agree with me,then? Are you also known as "Traditional Tools?"BTW,the quality of the hand crafted saw would depend upon who made it,wouldn't it?

Alan DuBoff

02-01-2009, 5:09 PM

So,you agree with me,then? Are you also known as "Traditional Tools?"BTW,the quality of the hand crafted saw would depend upon who made it,wouldn't it?
George,

Yes, I know it's odd that we agree on something, but in this case it is so...Actually my DBA is Traditional Toolworks, but I am Traditional Tools on Practical Machinist.

Have you thought about making tools now that your kinda retired?

Alan DuBoff

02-01-2009, 6:02 PM

I have to wonder if anyone can produce a traditional handsaw, with a folded back, for the same $70 that LV sells their dovetail saw for?

I don't think it's possible to do that and make a profit.

The LV saw might not be for everyone, but there is a certain market for these saws, IMO, and I suspect Rob Lee is selling enough to keep himself happy with his decision to bring them to market. ;)

george wilson

02-01-2009, 6:09 PM

I have an 18th.C. dovetail saw that is .015". 200 years old,still fine. Guess some hack didn't get hold of it. I copied several 18th.C. saws for Williamsburg. One of them a Dalaway dovetail,.015 thick. they were the most prized of our saws.

george wilson

02-02-2009, 10:27 AM

I expect the back possibly may be diecast aluminium,as are many of their tools. That cuts down cost a lot. A brass or good heavy steel back adds some heft to a saw so that it helps self propel itself into the cut.

Wilbur Pan

02-02-2009, 10:44 AM

The back of the Lee Valley dovetail saw is injection molded plastic*. You can see this on their website (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=61974&cat=51&ap=1).

* Actually, "plastic" is a gross undersimplification. The full description reads, "What really stands out is the revolutionary spine; it is injection molded under high pressure using an advanced material, incorporating stainless-steel powder for weight, glass fiber for stiffness, and a polymer resin binder."

george wilson

02-02-2009, 12:33 PM

Danny Thompson

02-02-2009, 12:48 PM

Steven,

Did you get your kit yet?

Rob Luter

02-02-2009, 1:51 PM

Well,plastic explains a lot. I guess I am so myopic that I still believe in choice materials,craftsmanship,and design.I still use modern woodworking machines,and modern metal working machine tools to take the grunt work out of it. We are not yet out of brass,or steel. Since brass is the best material for saw backs,adding some weight so that the saw is self feeding,I say let's use it.

Hi George,

I respect your adherence to traditional construction methods, but the fact that we're not out of brass doesn't mean the LV folks got it wrong or that they didn't use choice materials. The saw doesn't really care what the back is made of, and two materials of the same stiffness and density will perform equally with all else being equal. Glass filled resins are quite common, very strong, and are easy to work with. Add some powdered metal filler to crank up the density and you would conceivably have the equal to brass in both weight and strength. LV seems to think so. The difference is that when you use an insert molding process to encapsulate the blade with the back, the cycle time is about 30 seconds. Fabrication time for a brass back is longer. Time is money. The LV saw works great yet is price competitive. No surprise here.

My career as an Engineer has had me working on various consumer products, durable goods, and construction components. The common thread has been that they are all market driven products. My market wants the best value they can get. I'm always looking for ways to extract cost from the products I design without extracting value. Our company has a formal program of value analysis that's applied to everything. We look at all of our product features and manufacturing processes from multiple angles to assure we meet the functional, safety, and aesthetic requirements at the lowest possible cost. We find the biggest gains are usually realized through "outside the box" thinking like the molded spine.

That said, I fall into a demographic similar to you. I like traditional methods and materials (for me). I went for the LN Saw instead of the LV based on personal taste. I like the brass back because it not only adds weight but it looks cool too. To me it projects quality. I hope my Grandson (if I'm blessed with one) will feel the same way when I give it to him. I'm certain that the LV saw works as well for less money, but I wanted what I wanted. For the guy who wants to spend less money and cares only about the kerf that's left when he's done, the LV saw offers a better value. I think it will be a success.

Respectfully,

- Rob

Steven McLeavin

02-02-2009, 2:14 PM

Steven,

Did you get your kit yet?

looking at the box right now!! can't wait to put it together, i'll keep you updated on my success or failure with the saw :D

george wilson

02-02-2009, 6:00 PM

Rob,unless the back is MUCH larger than a brass back,it isn't going to be as heavy. Brass also damps vibration better than glass filled resin. I don't agree with your statement "The saw doesn't care what its back is made of." To tell the truth,I don't think you really believe it either.You made an about face in your posting. Over a period of time,the plastic may deteriorate,too. I see you also went for the brass back,though you encourage the plastic one? That tells me you really like the brass better yourself. You contradicted yourself,saying at first the plastic was as heavy,then later saying that the brass adds weight !! Of course the brass is heavier. Brass is heavier than steel.Do you really think that plastic is an aesthetic material? It can be,but not in this context. I think LV is a fine company,but I am not going to buy plastic or aluminum tools,unless there is a legitimate reason,like in aircraft,for their use. Not simply to make something cheaper.

I am not a manufacturer producing mass produced products,so I couldn't care less about demographics. My planes have sold for much more money than most people would think about paying. My saws the same. As LN proves,even on a small commercial level,there are enough customers out there who want old fashioned quality to spend $400 or more on a plane. I am not interested in producing inexpensive stuff. Let the Chinese do that. Why would any good,small craftsman want to make cheap stuff? There are better things to do than just think of boring ways to make money. Think of high class ways to make a living,and leave a legacy. When plastic tools have shrunk up,cracked,or deteriorated,old LN saws,Disstons, saws by fine modern makers etc. will still be out there bringing higher prices than ever.

There ara still plenty of old 19th. C. Disstons,and other good saws on ebay. Some still nice and bright,with applewood handles,made just as well as any other saws. They can be had a lot cheaper than some of these new ones. As a toolmaker,am I shooting myself in the foot? I really don't care. Its the truth. I'm trying to get back to guitar making,anyway.

Steven McLeavin

02-02-2009, 9:15 PM

I am not interested in producing inexpensive stuff. Let the Chinese do that. Why would any good,small craftsman want to make cheap stuff? There are better things to do than just think of boring ways to make money. Think of high class ways to make a living,and leave a legacy.

Amen to that! I am really saddened by the deterioration of fine woodworking into a mere hobby

george wilson

02-02-2009, 9:26 PM

At least there is a growing number of people getting interested in many fields of skilled work. There are a lot of people who develop high degrees of skill. The main problem is the number of people who become skilled,but who have sadly not developed a decent sense of taste in design. I see more bad design work in the reader's section of Fine Woodworking than I do tastefully made items. And I do not refer to 18th.C. furniture as being the only way to go. Actually,I have hardly any period design furniture in my house. I'm talking about just good,basicaly well designed pieces from any discipline.The available books are pretty much coffee table books. you have to get out there and dig to become educated.

Steve Sawyer

02-02-2009, 9:46 PM

Looks like time for me to unsubscribe from this thread.

My skills, taste and appreciation for fine tools and craftsmanship are obviously not sufficiently up to snuff to warrant contributing to a discussion amongst real professional craftsmen.

I'm just a mere hobbyist.

Rob Luter

02-02-2009, 10:03 PM

Rob,unless the back is MUCH larger than a brass back,it isn't going to be as heavy.

So what? How heavy does it need to be?

Brass also damps vibration better than glass filled resin.

You base this on what? Mass isn't the only way to dampen vibration. I've used all sorts of vibration isolators and none were made of brass.

I don't agree with your statement "The saw doesn't care what its back is made of." To tell the truth,I don't think you really believe it either.You made an about face in your posting.

Ask your saw if it cares. If you get an answer, let me know.

Over a period of time,the plastic may deteriorate,too.

Yes, and steel can rust. Your point?

You contradicted yourself,saying at first the plastic was as heavy,then later saying that the brass adds weight !!

Actually, I said "Add some powdered metal filler to crank up the density and you would conceivably have the equal to brass in both weight and strength"

Brass is heavier than steel.

Yup, Brass is .303# per cubic inch, Steel is .283# per cubic inch. Give a 7% advantage to Brass.

Do you really think that plastic is an aesthetic material?

In certain context, yes. In the context of a saw back, no. That's primarily why I chose the LN Saw. I have several old backsaws with steel backs that I like just as well.

My planes have sold for much more money than most people would think about paying. My saws the same.

I'm sure you're real proud of that fact. I could give a hoot.

Why would any good,small craftsman want to make cheap stuff?

Likely for a number of reasons you're not capable of understanding.

There ara still plenty of old 19th. C. Disstons,and other good saws on ebay.

A few in my shop too. I love them.

When I chimed in on this thread I did so to respectfully offer rationale for the design choices made by the LV folks, from the perspective of someone who has made a successful career in product development (clearly not your forte'). Your response amazes me. You must be a legend in your own mind. I'll suggest you stick with what you know, and stop commenting on what you don't. The combative tone of nearly every post you have on this board leads me to believe you won't. Have a nice life.

dan grant

02-02-2009, 10:10 PM

george wilson

02-02-2009, 10:16 PM

Rob,I really didn't mean to insult you,or make you angry.I thought that in the final decision you made,we were pretty much like minded. You did choose the LN because of its design,and the brass back. You do not need to insult me as if I do not know what I am talking about. I know exactly what I am talking about. I have 55 years experience,and have been a professional tool maker full time for 23 years. The statement about my combative tone is just not true. If you read my posts you will see that I have provided helpful information on every post except for a very few with you know who. I did say that LV was a fine company,in case you missed that. If I do not care for plastic tools,why should it make you so angry?

P.S. Steel can rust if left wet. Plastic can deteriorate even in a climate controled room where it never sees water. I've had Stanley dead blow hammers turn white,and flake and split up. Never went out of the room. Different plastics,yes. I trust metal both in their present use,and in future value. Plastic certainly has its uses. I never denied that. Adding stainless steel powder to plastic is never going to boot it up to the weight of brass. Adding powder to the plastic would seem to weaken its matrix,if anything. Can you deny that as an engineer?

Quote "To me it (the LN) projects quality. I agree! Why are you so mad?

Chuck Tringo

02-02-2009, 10:22 PM

So, since I own the LV Dovetail saw does that make me a Commie Pinko who is trying to bring about the fall of quality hand tools by buying ugly plastic crap type of guy :confused:

george wilson

02-02-2009, 10:30 PM

Of course not,Chuck. You are free to buy whatever you want if it pleases you. Plastic saws just do not please me. What is wrong with our different tastes?

Look,I want to make a blanket apology to ANYONE who is somehow offended by my above post that so aggravated Rob. I did not realize that my tone was offensive or combative. That was not on my mind. There is no reason for anyone to get upset over taste in tools. I did not say that anyone who buys the LV saw is stupid,or anything to that effect. Rob did buy the saw I would have preferred. I thought we were in agreement. I do not think I need to apologize for saying that I do not want to make cheap stuff. If I did,I'd be in mass production,and trying to make payroll.

Ray Gardiner

02-02-2009, 11:19 PM

Amen to that! I am really saddened by the deterioration of fine woodworking into a mere hobby

Hi Steven,

I for one am pretty happy (rather than saddened) with the increased popularity of woodworking as a hobby. Particularily the increased popularity of working with handtools, and respect for traditional techniques.

The positives, as I see it, are the increased number of tool makers that are making excellent quality tools, Wenzloff&Sons, Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, Gramercy and many others.
The market for these tools is predominatly the hobbyist/enthusiast market.

Personally, I enjoy woodworking as a hobby, if I were to try and make a business out of it, I wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much.

I can't speak for others, but I can't buy furniture (in the normal retail outlets) That is anywhere the near the quality or style that I would like, so I build my own, and I suspect the same applies to a lot of people on this forum.

Regards
Ray
PS Apologies to everyone for taking this off-topic, but I couldn't resist.

Steven McLeavin

02-02-2009, 11:23 PM

to each his own!

Alan DuBoff

02-02-2009, 11:35 PM

to each his own!
An open mind is good.

Is it bad that LV brings this level of saw to us?

I certainly don't find the saw as offensive as some I guess. I did when I first saw it (hey, a pun!;-), but the design has grown on me as I have had time to analyze it. The saw has some interesting qualities which I think LV deserves some credit for.

The design gives it a plus to use in a saw vise, for one. Let's hope folks use them in a saw vise! ;)

I have enough saws, and make my own, so I'm not running out to get one but I think it's a good saw to recommend.

I think most makers would be challenged to build a saw and sell it for $70 of comparable value, no matter what type of material they used. I wouldn't even sell one made out of brass, let alone bronze, for $70.:o

Pam Niedermayer

02-03-2009, 2:08 AM

...When plastic tools have shrunk up,cracked,or deteriorated,old LN saws,Disstons, saws by fine modern makers etc. will still be out there bringing higher prices than ever....

It's hard for me to get excited about western saws; but I can say that everything I've bought from LV has been a quality product. There does seem to be a relatively new virus/bacteria attacking regular plastic stuff. We first noticed it when living on Cape Cod and our plastic spatulas started disintegrating. I doubt the fancy plastic stuff LV uses is affected by this being. Anyhow, the virus/bacteria is my hope for the earth. I bet it will eat plastic bags like crazy. :)

As to owning one tool and recommending another, I only recommend what I've used, usually extensively. If another situation applies, I always state the caveats, such as "I've heard from people whose judgement I trust that such and such is a very good tool." And it's fairly common for me to have multiple tools from different vendors, perhaps a new tool is too enticing for me to forgo purchase; so someone may well have both LN and LV back saws.

Another note, LV is an extraordinary vendor/manufacturer who stand behind the products they sell. I once bought a pitch fork from them that broke; and when I called to inform them, merely as a quality control issue, they insisted I accept a new one and return the handle portion of mine. It was embarrassing. :)

Pam

Rob Grubbs

02-03-2009, 7:47 AM

They are mass producers who must make tools to a price to meet payroll. I am not in that category,and have been lucky to have made a career out of making tools not to a price,and getting paid to do it.

The need for tools I couldn't afford,or which were specialty items went with it. I hope that my tools and instruments will leave something of a legacy when I am gone.

I have never been interested in mass production for the purpose of making money. I'm not saying that is what LV does from choice. If they do,it is a fact of running a business,which,in spite of Rob's remarks I do understand very well.
George, if I may, it seems to me that you are viewing this strictly from the manufacturers standpoint. As you state yourself there were tools you could not afford at times in your career. From a consumers standpoint these saws represent a great value and allows those of us that do not have great sums of disposable income to enjoy tools that work as they are supposed to. I would love to be able to afford one of your fine handmade saws but I am afraid it would be way beyond my means. We all can't drive Ferraris even though we may want to.
This saw has met it's design criteria admirably. It is not supposed to be an heirloom tool, it is supposed to be an affordable tool that works. For a long time there have been affordable saws and there have been saws that worked, but this one does both. Is it pretty? Depends on the person. Will it be an heirloom? No, it is not supposed to be. Does it work? Absolutely!
I think this is a classic case of letting function take the lead over form. To me that is the hallmark of Lee Valley and I respect that. I find beauty in tools that are well designed and perform as they should, no matter what they look like.
What we often loose sight of is that historically tools have been made from what was available at the time. If plastic was available in the 18th century, then someone would probably have used it in a similar application. We have the luxury of having many more materials available today. Maybe some day in the future tools will be made of some totally different material that we don't even know about today. These are the good old days.

george wilson

02-03-2009, 9:35 AM

Rob,I have stated that LV is a great company. I know Leonard Lee. I don't think their saw is horrible. I just do not want to make plastic tools. I couldn't if I wanted to. There is a large up front investment in molds,etc. I can only make a decent hourly wage by making as premium a product as I can.I can't even buy the large quantitys of steel needed to get wholesale material discounts to help make cheaper products.

I own several Asian machines for the same reason others may buy a less expensive saw.Because I'm not rich. I'm really doing the same thing others are doing,aren't I?

Barry Beech

02-03-2009, 11:14 AM

Please STOP all of this stupid bickering. It serves no purpose.

Here it is. LV, Adria, LN, Wetzlof and others. They are all great saws. They all serve the same purpose. It is basically up to you do decide which one you want to buy. They all achieve the same purpose of making dovetails. Really the only way to decide which you like is to try them.

If you don't like the look of the saw put out by Lee Valley, then by ALL MEANS DON't BUY IT. Some people do like the look of it, don't try to belittle them because they do.