pins vs tails revelation

[frank shic]

i've been cutting my dovetails pin first as taught by frank klausz but after watching the cosman 3 minute video, i tried cutting the tails and i must say that i like it much better. i can still layout by eye as recommended by klausz but i get matching tails on both sides of the drawers and it's easier to make the straight angle cuts for the pins than it is to make the angled cuts for the tails. transferring the marks over to the pin boards was easier too since i could just lay it over the mating piece while it was clamped in the vice instead of balancing the piece on top of the board. i might have to make my pins larger or get a marking knife since i ran into some problems with using a pencil. it seems like it's a little bit faster too to be able to gang cut the tail boards simultaneously.

[Michael Sobik]

Don't get hung up on which is "better". Just do what works best for your style of woodworking. It is nice to be able to do both, because in certain situations you may need to cut the pins or the tails first.

If you don't have a marking knife, I would recommend just picking up a small Xacto knife with a #11 blade. These work great for me, and I can just pop in a new blade whenever I need one.

[Jim Koepke]

The problem with marking with a pencil is remembering to cut inside the line and by how much. Then, the "how much" depends on how sharp the pencil.

jim

[frank shic]

michael, thanks for that el cheapo advice! i'll just bank my dollars for the next "acquisition" lol. jim, once i give up the pencil, i won't have anything else to blame for my poor craftsmanship ;)

[John Keeton]

...once i give up the pencil, i won't have anything else to blame for my poor craftsmanship ;)
Frank, it is ALWAYS the fault of the tool!! Otherwise, how would be able to justify more toys:D:D!!

My experience with pins first was one set. It sures seems to me that tails first is easier, but I understand that this debate has raged for years - with no clear winner. I agree with Michael - do what works!!

[frank shic]

john, you gotta try tails first sometime. it's also easier to see which way the cut should go, you know? sometimes when i'm doing pins first i have to think about it whereas tails is pretty easy to visualize. now to get a fret saw to try sawing instead of chopping...

[Alan DuBoff]

The problem with marking with a pencil is remembering to cut inside the line and by how much. Then, the "how much" depends on how sharp the pencil.

jim
I have only heard one good reason to do pins first, which is that the marking knife doesn't register as well when marking the pins from the tails, since the pins will almost always be on end grain in practice. In that regard it is hard to get a good mark registered in some cases.

To compensate for that, Rob Cosman uses his bench plane to leverage the tails on top of the end grain, so he can get a good amount of pressure so he knife will register well (Alan Peters does that also). He also refers to the 140 trick, which is to use a Stanley 140 to take off a slight amount off the face of the tails so they will register on the end of the board. To create a slight rabbet that registers on top of the end grain.

Tage Frid used to refer to those types of gimmicks as being "mickey mouse", in his dovetail video, if you haven't seen it, and advocated that you should only do pins first.

With all that said, you must use the right joint for the task at hand, and when you have a half blind, tails first does work much better...hard to deny that...I also like the method of using dividers to mark out the tails first as Cosman advocates (possibly from Alan Peters, Cosman's mentor).

If you really want to practice dovetails and start getting comfortable with them, do them like Frank Klausz and do them pins first. He eliminates most measuring tools and it greatly speeds things up. Doesn't help get them looking perfect, that is not what you want to practice. What you want to practice is making them a perfect fit. Cutting dovetails by hand all gets down to mating up the second piece with your first. Even aside from the mark, it is the skill of marking from your first board and making the match on your second when you saw. If you can do that, you can cut dovetails.

Learning this basic component of cutting dovetails does not actually require you have the best looking dovetails, they can be different angles on each side and be all lopsided. As long as they fit perfectly you will have practiced properly. If there are gaps, keep practicing...actually keep practicing, and always practice one when you start to do a few for a project, that always helps. ;) If they take you too long to cut to do a test joint before your cut the real ones, you need to practice more as well...:) Eventually they will start to take less time and you will become more confident in yourself.

Also good to note, if they don't turn out perfect, use a ball pein and pein the wood together to make it look acceptable. ;)

[John Keeton]

Frank, I am already on the "tails first" thing - a Rob Cosman guy! Got the DVDs, etc. In my recent progression on dovetails, I messed up a set of tails after having done the pin board. I used the pin board to make a new set of tails - won't be doing that again!

I have watched some of Al Navas video of Klausz doing the pins first, and it really looks awkward to me. I trust what Alan Duboff says is correct about practicing all methods - but, I kinda like the way I am doing them and it works for me.

My next thing is to try the rabbet as Alan discusses. Right now, I will need to use my shoulder plane and a guide board, but if it works out to a better joint - I will be looking for a skew rabbet plane!!

[frank shic]

thanks alan for the encouragement and the explanation on why cosman uses the stanley 140 to support the board - i could never figure that out! i saw the rabbeting mentioned by christopher schwarz to help with the alignment and i think i'll give that a go next time as well. now does anyone want to comment on sawing out the waste vs chopping? chopping definitey takes more energy and makes more noise but i believe some "clean up" work is still required with sawing, right?

[John Keeton]

Frank, as I said, I am a Cosman kool-aid drinker! Bought the fretsaw, the 12.5 tpi skip-tooth blades, wrapped it with athletic tape, put a 30* kink on the blade - and it works great!! I try to saw close to my scribe line, but would have to admit that I have gone over a time or two on my week long run of dovetail practice. Once you get the feel of it, you don't have much cleanup to do, and it goes much quicker because most of the waste is gone.

[frank shic]

thanks again, john. rob cosman just received some extra business :D

[Alan DuBoff]

Frank, I am already on the "tails first" thing - a Rob Cosman guy! Got the DVDs, etc.
I am also, I won't deny that John! ;) Any time I need to cut a dovetail that's for the money, I will lay them out and do them like Cosman does. I really like the way he talks things through, and explains them, he is good, but the videos tend to be a bit on the boring side after 1 or 2 runs, so I do like and advocate his method, also.

You'll like the 140 trick, the rabbet registers well to mark.

I have watched some of Al Navas video of Klausz doing the pins first, and it really looks awkward to me. I trust what Alan Duboff says is correct about practicing all methods - but, I kinda like the way I am doing them and it works for me.
Actually, you can practice tails first in the Klausz "less filling/measuring" style. I have done this with success in the past, and it allows one to focus on the joint also, but I do prefer to cut the pins first like Klausz does since it feels awkward to cut the angles of the tails freehand, but it is something that it is also well worth trying!.

Try all ways, it doesn't hurt your skills at all. If anything the more sawing you practice the better, IMO.

thanks alan for the encouragement and the explanation on why cosman uses the stanley 140 to support the board
Your welcome, but I may have confused you, he uses a bench plane, possibly a LN 5 or 5 1/2 to leverage the tail board on. It allows you to place your pin board in the vise, just lower than the bench plane, laying the tail board across from the side of the plane to the pin board. You separate the plane enough to support the end of the tail board on the plane side. This allows you to get the extra pressure/purchase when you mark the pins, so that the board doesn't move when your marking it.

The 140 trick is used for the rabbet which you mention.

The reason you use a 140 is the fence is adjustable so you can accurately cut the the rabbet the width of the tails by adjusting the fence. This allows the tail board to register more solidly on the end of the pins board. I will admit that Tage Frid had a good point, there certainly are a lot of gimmicks, but I still like marking the tails first when it's for the money shot. :o

There is just no other joint that is so satisfying when you tap it together, when they are right, it feels so good in the way they kinda pressure fit together. At least speaking for myself, the dovetail in unique in that regard.

now does anyone want to comment on sawing out the waste vs chopping? chopping definitey takes more energy and makes more noise but i believe some "clean up" work is still required with sawing, right?
I'll give you my $0.02, never one to be shy or shut up...:D

In theory you don't need to clean up if you get it close, but most folks will. Most folks will clean up flats which oppose the tails/pins, but if you saw correctly you will not need to clean up the angled sides (they are actually flat, hope that makes sense). That can be seen in the George Huron video I linked to, he cleans up the flats after cutting the waste out with the coping saw.

In both the Frank Klausz 3 minute dovetail, and the Cosman 3 1/2 minute dovetail (which BTW is much more impressive, IMO :p ), they cut the waste out close enough to the line that they don't do much clean up at all. In practice many folks feel uncomfortable cutting that close to the line with a coping or fret saw (Cosman uses the later with the "blade trick" :rolleyes: that is where you bend the ends of the fret saw blade so you can cut the waste and have the frame clean the work ). Klausz, OTOH, has a trick where he bends his bow saw blade so that you can start the cut in the angled vertical side, and saw straight through. I don't have a saw like that, but it is worth doing, IMO, and that's a cool gimmick also...these are not really gimmicks, but tips on different ways to accomplish the best work possible.

I know this is all complicated and there are many ways to skin this cat, just have an open mind, try all the various methods and form an honest opinion for yourself. Oh, and practice, practice, practice...at one point when I was learning to cut dovetails myself, I would practice at least 1 or 2 a night. After a short while when you start, it gets quicker and you can knock out 2 in little time at all. The key like everything is to keep doing this on a regular basis, doesn't have to be every night, but 4 or 5 nights a week would do a lot of help most folks. Even just a couple weeks of that, you will improve your dovetail skills tremendously. At least speaking for myself, it did for me. I don't cut dovetails all the time anymore, but I am confident enough in my techniques and skill level that I am not intimidated to use them on a project. If anything I will try to incorporate them as I think they are the epitome of craftsmanship, certainly for furniture makers. But I like mortise and tenon a lot also, and especially pin'd. :)

EDIT:
Frank, as I said, I am a Cosman kool-aid drinker! Bought the fretsaw, the 12.5 tpi skip-tooth blades, wrapped it with athletic tape, put a 30* kink on the blade - and it works great!!
If you like that, get some coping saw blades from TFWW, the coping saw can turn the blade without kinking it, and also they hold way better as they have the pins. TFWW has some really thin, .018" thick coping saw blades that will fit into the kerf of most all dovetail saws. I tried the fret saw blades myself and was breaking them all the time in hardwoods. The saws don't hold the ends well, they pop out while cutting, the blades break easy because they are small...I can only suggest the TFWW coping saw blades as being a much better solution to the same problem.

HTH, I'll shut up now...:rolleyes:

[frank shic]

someone explain to me the kinking that's mentioned in rob cosman's video. alan, are you saying the fret saw sold by TFWW is better than the one cosman sells? it's about half the price!!! if it is i need to get a refund asap.

[Rick Erickson]

Frank,
If you purchased Rob's saw you won't be disappointed. I have the saw and have had NO problems whatsoever with it. It is comfortable to use and works well. I like the size. If you are working on wide boards simply bend the blade at the points of contact with the saw (about 30-degrees) and this will allow you to cut out waist with the saw at an angle. You won't need a refund. Give it a shot.

[John Keeton]

Frank, I think all of the fret saws are Olson. Cosmon sells the Olson saw with the handle already wrapped. But, you can buy the Olson and the 12.5 tpi skip tooth blades cheaper from Craftsman Studio. It comes with a dozen blades, and an extra dozen is $3.25. Shipping is a little steep, though.

I have not checked TFWW on price. Alan may be correct on the coping saw and blades - I just don't know on that one.

I have used one blade on the 11 samples I have done in poplar and walnut, and can not tell any dullness - no breakage.

Rick has accurately described the 30* twist in the blade at both ends. I used a pair of dikes or side cutters (wire snips, etc. depending on who is describing them.) I put the twist in about 1/8" from each end. It allows you to saw with the frame at an angle to clear the top of the tail board and pin board when sawing out the waste.

[Alan DuBoff]

someone explain to me the kinking that's mentioned in rob cosman's video. alan, are you saying the fret saw sold by TFWW is better than the one cosman sells? it's about half the price!!! if it is i need to get a refund asap.
Frank,

I don't use a fret saw, although I have in the past and it does work. I find the blades way to fragile and difficult to work with. Once you try to use a fret saw in hardwoods like hickory, purple heart, or even hard maple, you will know what I'm talking about.

I take Rick's word that the Cosman fret saw is good, but the blades sold at TFWW are coping saw blades. These blades secure differently in the saw, rather than being pinched, they have pins on each end. The coping saw also allows you to turn the blade sideways, so you can clear the frame over the work, so you can cut the waste out without kinking the blade. Otherwise a coping/fret saw will only be able to cut waste the depth of the frame from the edge.

What Cosman does is kink the fret saw blade so that it faces sideways partially, and that allows you to tilt the frame to insert the blade in the kerf, then start cutting and turn the blade over to cut along the flat. Because a coping saw allows you to turn the blade, you don't have to kink them. The reason Cosman uses the fret saw to begin with is that blades were not available that were thin enough to get inside the kerf of a dovetail saw. The LN dovetail saws are .018", those are the ones Cosman used to recommend. Alas the TFWW coping saw blades are here to the rescue. I'm not the only one tired of breaking fret saw blades in hardwoods, ask around.

The coping saw solution is much better and there is no reason to spend a lot of money, you can get a coping saw for $12 and blades for $6 (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-COPE.XX&Category_Code=TMQ). I use the 18 tpi blades that are .018" thick. These fit the kerf of all of my joinery saws. I have 2 fret saws, one vintage one that works ok, and a new one I got from TFWW that works quite well, just that the blades break on me a LOT. As they say, caveat emptor. ;)

[John Keeton]

FWIW, the Olsen blades are .038", so apparently the coping blades are even smaller. It would seem the 12.5 tpi would cut faster, but Alan has used both and I am sure Alan he is correct.

[frank shic]

thanks guys. had a sudden case of buyer's remorse! can't wait to try it out.

[Mark Singer]

After many years of "pins" first , I converted several years ago to tails first.. The tail board makes a better template to scribe from. You must use a knife and deliberate strokes for each side. Pencil is not good here and I am a pencil guy most of the time:rolleyes:

[frank shic]

you know what? as i was thinking about using the rabbet plane to help with alignment issues i had another thought that the rebate would also help with providing a guide for either chopping or sawing out the waste. what do you guys think? i'm trying to refine my process to produce the best dovetail drawers as efficiently as possible without resorting to any tailed instruments lol.

[frank shic]

guys, just got the cosman fret saw the other day and tried it out this afternoon. i was a little anxious at first because i had a huge tendency to cut downwards at an angle and then i remembered the 3 degree twist you guys recommended so out came the pliers and after a little coercion, i have made yet another revelation: it's WAY EASIER to saw out the waste than to whack them out with a chisel! i still derive a boyish thrill out of making so much noise with the mallet/chisel and watching the chips fly but i think my daughters will sleep much more soundly in the future ;) anyone else notice the tearout on the back side of the board as you saw out the waste? that's about the only thing i have against this method.

[Jim Koepke]

guys, just got the cosman fret saw the other day and tried it out this afternoon. i was a little anxious at first because i had a huge tendency to cut downwards at an angle and then i remembered the 3 degree twist you guys recommended so out came the pliers and after a little coercion, i have made yet another revelation: it's WAY EASIER to saw out the waste than to whack them out with a chisel! i still derive a boyish thrill out of making so much noise with the mallet/chisel and watching the chips fly but i think my daughters will sleep much more soundly in the future ;) anyone else notice the tearout on the back side of the board as you saw out the waste? that's about the only thing i have against this method.

I used to also whack them out with a chisel. Tried a fret saw and haven't looked back.

Haven't noticed much tear out, then again, my blade is real fine and it is set to cut on the pull. Finally my method is to cut a little above the line and pare with a chisel to the line.

jim

[willie sobat]

I have always been a tails first guy. Just cause that was the first way I tried. FWIW I use neither a pencil or a knife when transferring the outline of my tails to the pin board. Instead, I clamp the pin board in the vice and the tail board to the top of the bench as they will be aligned when assembled. Then I use a chisel and mallet to transfer the scribe marks. I place the chisel so that the back is against the tail with the bevel resting on the pin board, give it a sharp rap with the mallet then repeat the process for each line. This leaves a clear crisp lines on the pin board. Potential drawbacks are, that your pins can be no narrower than the thickness of your chisel (I tend to make mine +/- 3/16"), also make sure your stock is securely clamped or it can slip when you strike the chisel.

[John Keeton]

Frank, like Jim (and Cosman) I have my fret saw cut on the pull. You may have made a typo, but the twist on the blade is 30*, not 3. I try to cut just above the scribe line so any minimal tearout (on the front side) is of no consequence.

Also, Cosman uses the 12.5 tpi skip tooth blades. I noticed when I was looking at the various sources for the Olsen saw, that most of the time it came with a different blade than that. Rob sells it with the 12.5 tpi blades, and so does Craftsman Studio.

[frank shic]

ok, that makes sense PULLING rather than PUSHING the fret saw since i noticed the blade would distort. i'll try that chisel method some time. i used a utility knife but i had to run the knife over and over to get a visible line. 30 degrees? ok, that makes more sense... i was trying to figure out how you guys determined 3 degrees lol.

[David Keller NC]

"now does anyone want to comment on sawing out the waste vs chopping? chopping definitey takes more energy and makes more noise but i believe some "clean up" work is still required with sawing, right?"

Frank - I do both, it depends on the wood. I find that chopping out the waste in the tail board is almost always way faster than using the fretsaw or coping saw because I'm making traditional furniture that uses a soft wood for the sides of drawers (typically, eastern white pine, though in some cases poplar or cypress). I find a fretsaw useful in the unusual cases when I'm doing through dovetails in a harder wood, like walnut or mahogany.

[Alan DuBoff]

Frank, like Jim (and Cosman) I have my fret saw cut on the pull. You may have made a typo, but the twist on the blade is 30*, not 3. I try to cut just above the scribe line so any minimal tearout (on the front side) is of no consequence.

Also, Cosman uses the 12.5 tpi skip tooth blades. I noticed when I was looking at the various sources for the Olsen saw, that most of the time it came with a different blade than that. Rob sells it with the 12.5 tpi blades, and so does Craftsman Studio.
Yeah, I used to use a fret saw also, but kept breaking the blades, so switched to these coping saw blades from Tools For Working Wood (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-COPE.XX&Category_Code=TMQ), and have never looked back. Works way better than the fret saw for me, the coping saw that is. All of our mileage varies.

[John Keeton]

The coping saw solution is much better and there is no reason to spend a lot of money, you can get a coping saw for $12 and blades for $6 (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-COPE.XX&Category_Code=TMQ). I use the 18 tpi blades that are .018" thick. These fit the kerf of all of my joinery saws.
Alan, you had posted this previously, and I feel sure that the coping saw would work fine. I didn't know about this option when purhasing the fret saw, but I do like the ability to get a very taut blade on the fret saw. If it is working for you, I feel confident it is a good choice!

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan, you had posted this previously, and I feel sure that the coping saw would work fine. I didn't know about this option when purhasing the fret saw, but I do like the ability to get a very taut blade on the fret saw. If it is working for you, I feel confident it is a good choice!
John,

My problem with the fret saw was that it didn't seem to get the blade tight enough, or keep it tight enough. The fret saw uses blades which have a plain, flat end on them. The coping saw has pins to hook into a small holder, and it provides much better tension. On the fret saw the ends tend to pop out of the clamped ends, in my experience.

[David Keller NC]

BTW, guys. The fret saws that are sold in the big box stores are major crapola. I figured that out after having the same problem that Alan mentions. I picked up a Craftsman antique at a flea market - major improvement. This one wasn't plated with anything (like chrome or nickel) that made the pads slippery, and it also had a much bigger throat capacity - around 8", which was enough not to have to do the Cosman trick of warping the blades. The thumbscrews were also substantially larger.

A further improvement was my own, though obvious - I just took a piece of 120 grit sandpaper to the metal grab plates, and I think it'd take a gorilla to pull the blade loose now.

[John Keeton]

The Olsen is the one that Cosman and Craftsman Studio sells, and although my experience is rather limited, I have had no difficulty with slippage of the blade. I have a similar saw that I always referred to as a jeweler's saw, and it was more difficult to keep blades in. However, it did not have the extendable back like the Olsen, and so tension was always an issue.

[Alan DuBoff]

I figured that out after having the same problem that Alan mentions.
Yeah, I have tried various types, I have an old Miller Falls deep throat (12") that is a nice saw, but the blades either twist or break, or fall out.

The harder the wood, the more likely they are to pull out of the end or break, in my experience.

A further improvement was my own, though obvious - I just took a piece of 120 grit sandpaper to the metal grab plates, and I think it'd take a gorilla to pull the blade loose now.
Right, what I was doing pretty much, but you still need to kink/twist the blades so that you can get the blade in position. With the coping saw the handle and catches rotate, so you can twist it around, in addition to keeping tension on it.

However, it did not have the extendable back like the Olsen, and so tension was always an issue.
I have used one of those also, as I say it works ok, but at the end of the day I was always cranking down on the clamps so hard it seemed un-natural to me. The coping saw just seems like a better fit, especially with those thin blade.

That said, every craftsman should know how to chisel out the waste in layers, that seems like the traditional method for getting the waste out, and one of the most basic. To be able to chop a clean line along the base, and chisel from the end and along the grain in layers to remove the waste. This is a skill and knowledge that all should have, since at some time you may be without a fret saw and want to cut a dovetail. Good to know how to skin that cat more than one way, IMO, just as it is to know how to cut both pins first and tails first.

In the modern shop we don't need to limit our choices, one can use what works and adapt to the work. There was a period where some folks didn't use crosscut saws either, and that doesn't mean we can't use them today to cut the half pin from the tail boards, it is the right tool for the task at hand after all...adapt and use it is just what most people have done. ;)

[george wilson]

David,I file the jaws with gunsmith's checkering files.Older jeweler's saws are made to grip that way. The checkering files come from coarse to about 75 lines per inch. They are for checkering metal. If the jaws are hardened,of course,that's out. I never use fret saws to cut dovetails,anyway. just chisel it out.

[frank shic]

alan, i'm glad i started off chopping because that's really the only way to cut half blind dovetails on the pin board although i've yet to find an easy way to utilize modern undermounted drawer slides with half blinds unless i rabbet the drawer front/pin board to allow for the required clearances.

[Alan DuBoff]

alan, i'm glad i started off chopping because that's really the only way to cut half blind dovetails on the pin board although i've yet to find an easy way to utilize modern undermounted drawer slides with half blinds unless i rabbet the drawer front/pin board to allow for the required clearances.
One good reasons to do tails first of course, but I like to advocate that folks learn and use both pins first and tails first, and use what suites the task best.

I have seen folks cut some of the waste out of the half blind, it could have been Cosman come to think of it. You can't cut much, but you can cut a diagonal from the base angled up to the outer top, if that makes sense.

But yes, it helps to know how to chop out the waste in that situation, since cutting won't get too much anyway, typically less than half. OTOH, I admit to having a liking to my chisels, probably more than any other tool, even though I use a coping saw to cut the waste out of a through dovetail...:rolleyes:

[Jim Koepke]

My fret saws are all antiques from eBay. They all seem to have good clamps. I have not had a good blade pop out or break, yet. Have had blades with a bit of rust and abuse break.

There are also some thin spiral toothed blades that let you cut in any direction.

One of my fret saws lets the user change the angle like a coping saw.

YMMV

Now I feel like running out and doing some dove tails. Too many other things to do right now though.

jim

[Manny Hernandez]

someone explain to me the kinking that's mentioned in rob cosman's video. alan, are you saying the fret saw sold by TFWW is better than the one cosman sells? it's about half the price!!! if it is i need to get a refund asap.

Hey Frank,

If you want to ask him yourself, Cosman will be teaching some classes at the Woodcraft in Dublin. March 28th I think. I don't know the details, you'll have to call the store.

By the way, how's that framesaw I sold you a few years ago working out?

Manny Hernandez

[Alan DuBoff]

If you want to ask him yourself, Cosman will be teaching some classes at the Woodcraft in Dublin. March 28th I think. I don't know the details, you'll have to call the store
Thanks for mentioning that Manny, I didn't know about it. There's some info on their webpage (http://www.woodcraft.com/stores/store.aspx?id=521), but not too much.

This Fri./Sat. is the Lie-Nielsen Hand Tools event at the Crucible (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/?pg=1). You gonna be there this year?

[Manny Hernandez]

This Fri./Sat. is the Lie-Nielsen Hand Tools event at the Crucible (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/?pg=1). You gonna be there this year?

Hi Alan,
I had planned to because I want to meet Mike Wenzloff and talk to him about a few things. I also need to pick up some things that Kevin Drake is bringing down for me. However, I found out my wife has to work Saturday which threw my plans into a tailspin. I'm trying to come up with a Plan B....
Maybe I'll see you there. What day will you be there?

Manny

[Alan DuBoff]

I will probably be there both days, but planning to have dinner with Mike Wenzloff and his son on Sat. evening, as they are busy on Fri. Join us if you can get free, we're planning to go over to The Home of Chicken and Waffles (http://www.hcwchickenandwaffles.net/index.html) at Jack London Square. It was a Roscoe's House of Chicken and Waffles (http://www.roscoeschickenandwaffles.com/), but dis-franchised from Roscoe's somehow a few years ago...that's a hangout in L.A. for Jazz Musicians...the one at Jack London Square is more R&B and soul atmosphere, and some spiritual. If you like soul food, it's a cool place...

Oh, to keep on topic, tails first at Roscoe's, Mike and Son are limited on time as they are driving back for Mike's birthday on Sun.! ;)

I am trying to get another saw put together this week...gonna bring a couple up to show Mike. You might be interested to see them also.

Kevin's a funny guy, that saw he had last year is something...:rolleyes:

And speaking of which, his unusual kerf starter (http://glen-drake.com/v-web/ecommerce/os/catalog/index.php?cPath=27&osCsid=69b6086f432ba4cb3d9a49eb4bd07d22) and offset gauge (http://play-glen-drake.com/v-web/ecommerce/os/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=68&osCsid=a999f973e46063d9d3a5df3ed05df74c) he uses to cut dovetails works well for him. I find the system a bit complex, kinda like a machinists solution to cutting dovetails...but it works for Kevin. It is worth understanding for folks, not that I recommend it, but it's good to understand all solutions, IMO. Keeping an open mind is good...;) This is why being open to either pins first or tails can provide a good solution in specific cases.

I have always thought that Tage Frid made a good point about some of these solutions are micky mouse. Case in point the fret saw...but it does work...and I have used it. He mostly referred to ways to compensate for not being able to get a good mark on the end grain of the pin board...using a plane to leverage the tail board down tight to mark, etc...but the kink'd fret saw is yet another one of those little tricks as well...

[Alan DuBoff]

Manny,

Am curious, what does Jay Van Arsdale recommend for dovetails? I'm curious if the Japanese style works pins first or tails first? Or do they do both also?

I know a guy that took a bunch of classes over at Laney College and was really ecstatic to be able to study under Jay for so little money...

How does Jay teach dovetails, or is that a part of traditional Japanese joinery at all? I have seen some, but it doesn't seem traditional, I could be wrong though...

[frank shic]

manny, so good to hear from you again, my friend! your frame saw is doing very well and getting frequent use now that i've gone halfway back towards hand tools. i went through the power tool stage, then the hand tool stage, then back to the power tool stage before finally settling on a combination. i've come to grips with the fact that i will not be preparing my rough stock with hand tools but that it's OK to use hand tools for the joinery lol!

[Manny Hernandez]

Manny,

Am curious, what does Jay Van Arsdale recommend for dovetails? I'm curious if the Japanese style works pins first or tails first? Or do they do both also?

I know a guy that took a bunch of classes over at Laney College and was really ecstatic to be able to study under Jay for so little money...

How does Jay teach dovetails, or is that a part of traditional Japanese joinery at all? I have seen some, but it doesn't seem traditional, I could be wrong though...

I'll assume you are talking about dovetails as it relates to connecting two boards to form a carcase or box side where there are more than a few pins and tails. I've never seen him go over that and I've never asked him. His class is an exploration of Japanese tools and joinery. The joinery relates mostly to structures such as timber framing. It's not a "Japanese Furniture Construction" class per se. In between class timber frame projects some of us work on furniture size projects and we incorporate some of the Japanese joinery to this for visual effect or to explore different, more complex, types of joinery.
Some of the joinery incorporates a dovetail element but usually one (occasionally two) tail to make some sort of butt connection such as when connecting two timbers at 90 degrees or a sliding dovetail or a splicing joint to lengthen a run or a complex lap joint. Pins or tails doesn't matter as we layout out the two parts independently using centerlines as reference. So, when laying out the dovetail for a small stretcher on the front of an endtable that will fit into the two front legs I would layout the tail and socket seperately and cut independently. For laying out dovetails on a carcase side where there are more than a few pins and tails this method would be cumbersome. However, someone in class did layout all the dovetails joints on a box independently using a centerline as a reference and was quite happy with the results.

For me, I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if it's tails or pins first. What's more important for me is visualizing how the joint, any joint not just dovetails, fits together, cutting square to the face and knowing where to place the cut. i.e. splitting the line, taking the line or whatever makes sense for the task at hand. I don't think it matters if you use a pencil or knife to mark pins from tails or vice versa. A nice dark pencil line on endgrain is better for me than a thin knife cut because I can see it better and I already know that I have to leave the line when I make my cut. In the case of independently cutting two pieces that will be joined I want a thin mark because I'll be splitting the lines in most cases and a thin lines makes it easier for me.

So what's more important to me than "pins or tails first?" is practicing cutting to a line, splitting a line, cutting square, etc until you're comfortable with the procedure. Then it doesn't matter if you have to cut an angle first (tails first) or straight down (pins first). This helps a lot when you get to the more complex joinery. Not to belittle the skill need to make dovetails and tenons but the fact is when you get to the more complex stuff dovetails and tenons become a bit pedestrian and there are more issues to deal with than "pins or tails first?" I think it's a skill anybody can learn with practice.


Manny

[Chris Padilla]

I'm working on trying to show up in Oaktown as well for this event. Manny's wife messed up all our plans.... :(

[george wilson]

Well said,Manny.

[James Owen]

John,

My problem with the fret saw was that it didn't seem to get the blade tight enough, or keep it tight enough. The fret saw uses blades which have a plain, flat end on them. The coping saw has pins to hook into a small holder, and it provides much better tension. On the fret saw the ends tend to pop out of the clamped ends, in my experience.

I have had this same kind of problem with commercial coping saws, caused primarily by the metal frame flexing/bending slightly when the blade was "tightened". After trying three or four different brands of coping saws and still getting loose, sloppy blade tightening, I gave up on the commercial ones, and made my own bow saw style coping saw. Now the blade stays taut when it's tightened, and it can be easily angled however you need it. It works especially well for removing the waste while cutting dovetails.

For anyone that's interested, it's a really fun project that takes about 5 or 6 hours, building it Neander-style (the time needed depends a lot on whether you do your own metal work or buy some of the hardware, and does not include finishing time), and there are several places on the web with instructions, including a really superb tutorial here on SMC by Bob Smalser -- http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=12368.

[Jim Koepke]

Kevin's a funny guy, that saw he had last year is something...:rolleyes:

And speaking of which, his unusual kerf starter (http://glen-drake.com/v-web/ecommerce/os/catalog/index.php?cPath=27&osCsid=69b6086f432ba4cb3d9a49eb4bd07d22) and offset gauge (http://play-glen-drake.com/v-web/ecommerce/os/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=68&osCsid=a999f973e46063d9d3a5df3ed05df74c) he uses to cut dovetails works well for him. I find the system a bit complex, kinda like a machinists solution to cutting dovetails...but it works for Kevin. It is worth understanding for folks, not that I recommend it, but it's good to understand all solutions, IMO. Keeping an open mind is good...;) This is why being open to either pins first or tails can provide a good solution in specific cases.


The thing for me with his demonstration was that when the lines are marked, whether from pins to tails or tails to pins, there is an offset. His solution was to make some tools and use feeler gauges.

The time tested solution was for the craftsman to know his tools and know where to saw from experience.

So, though his method may be odd, it is understood and appreciated. It has helped me to see my errors doing it the "time tested" way, which has improved my work.

Even if my budget will not allow for a new toy, these shows are worth attending for the folks you meet and the techniques that can be learned to apply to one's own work.

Hopefully they will have a show up here in Portland in the future.

jtk

[Alan DuBoff]

I'll assume you are talking about dovetails as it relates to connecting two boards to form a carcase or box side where there are more than a few pins and tails. I've never seen him go over that and I've never asked him.
My In-Laws have an old Japanese house from the mid 1800s, and it is the reason I ask. There is no dovetail or other fancy joinery, other than m&t for the structure. Most of the drawers in the built-ins do not have the fancy joinery either. This is a house that deserves to be completely restored, the family is not living in it since the Grandparents died, and there are some other newer houses built on the property also, which some of the kids live in. It has a wrap around porch with the sliding doors that open up around most of the home. We stayed there once when my son was about 2 years old, but it was so cold we vowed never to visit in the winter again until the kids were grown up. Well, my son is going to be 18 in March, and we still haven't gone back to Kagoshima in the winter...

Some of the joinery incorporates a dovetail element but usually one (occasionally two) tail to make some sort of butt connection such as when connecting two timbers at 90 degrees or a sliding dovetail or a splicing joint to lengthen a run or a complex lap joint.
I saw some of the joinery on his webpage (http://www.daikudojo.org/Classes/index.htm)...that would fit that...this one is an interesting piece of joinery. The marking is interesting in itself.

http://www.daikudojo.org/Classes/briadal2.jpg

For me, I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if it's tails or pins first. What's more important for me is visualizing how the joint, any joint not just dovetails, fits together, cutting square to the face and knowing where to place the cut. i.e. splitting the line, taking the line or whatever makes sense for the task at hand. I don't think it matters if you use a pencil or knife to mark pins from tails or vice versa. A nice dark pencil line on endgrain is better for me than a thin knife cut because I can see it better and I already know that I have to leave the line when I make my cut. In the case of independently cutting two pieces that will be joined I want a thin mark because I'll be splitting the lines in most cases and a thin lines makes it easier for me.
I completely agree, and in fact believe that it is the 2nd piece that gets marked from the first that is most important, because no matter what angles the joinery is cut at, as long as the mating surface matches the joint will be tight.

When I was learning to cut dovetails I used to practice in a similar style to Frank Klausz, where you use very little measuring tools to mark the joinery before cutting the dovetail. I have used this successfully with both pins first, and tails first. The point you make above is exactly what I did discover, that as long as you hold the saw square to the work, you can line up the joinery nicely. In that sense pins or tails being first doesn't matter. In this case what really matters is having the experience of doing it, to know that you know how the joinery fits together and to cut it so that it is tight.

For that matter, eastern or western tools are not an issue either, it is really knowing how to use the tool one owns and using them.

I also agree with your assesment on marking knife vs. pencil. I use a cheap Stanley 10-049 utility knife for much of my layout, but for light wood I prefer to use a pencil in most cases, as it is more visible. For dark wood the knife line is more visible, and I don't tend to use a pencil for darker woods. But the thing about my Stanley utility knife is that it has a bevel on both sides of the blade (forming a V) and I've been told that will make the mark off, as the flat side of a marking knife is meant to register up against your line...I just haven't found that really matters in real world practice, and Cosman uses a similar but older utility knife is many of his videos.

Certainly the real skill is in understanding and being able to execute the joinery properly, rather than the details in how one does it. As long as one is comfortable with the process, that's the biggest barrier to success, IMO.

Chris,

Your more than welcome to join us on Sat. evening if you like, as are other folks. Sounds like Manny is on Daddy-Patrol, but Hanna is more than welcome to join us also! ;) We don't have any formal plans, just an impromptu get together.

[frank shic]

after taking a look at that japanese joinery, i feel even worse for struggling so much with just a simple mortise and tenon joint! thanks a lot alan ;)

[Chris Padilla]

Frank,

As long as you are ENJOYING the process (there is even joy in frustration and in making mistakes and learning from them), life should be good in the shop. Most of us aren't pros and don't need to make a perfect dovetail to put food on the table (I'm sure I'd be better at them if THAT was the case however! :D ). I woodwork because it is fun and I enjoy working with my hands...even when those silly hands make a mistake! ;)

:D

Alan, we'll see how things are shaping up towards the end of the week as to whether I make it up to Oaktown or not...I hope to! :)

[Alan DuBoff]

I woodwork because it is fun and I enjoy working with my hands...even when those silly hands make a mistake! ;)
Indeed, Chris!

I always like to learn something, even if it is from a mistake, and it does happen quite a bit.

Alan, we'll see how things are shaping up towards the end of the week as to whether I make it up to Oaktown or not...I hope to! :)
Hope to see you there...maybe Tim and Andrew will drag themselves over there also...either way I'm sure there will be a bunch of galoots like last year...

[Jim Koepke]

While out in the shop, took a look at the fret saw that allows the tilting of the blade any which way. It is a Great Neck 250.

The handle has threading and the top clamp has a nut on top to allow for rotating the clamp. There are serrations at the handle end to grip into the washer at the bottom. There is also a nut on the frame to set the tension. The thing looks like a cheapy next to some of the older models, but it is a good user.

A picture would likely help, maybe tomorrow.

jim

[John Powers]

To me the Kerf Starter is a tool in search of a purpose. I finally found one. Tore off the blade, painted the handle blue and hide it on Easter morning for the egg hunt. I'm sure others find it useful.

[frank shic]

ok guys, i tried using the frank klausz method on the fret saw and you know what? there's not nearly enough length on the version i have to be able to saw without taking forever to make a complete cut. i'm still noticing that i have to do a bit of chisel work afterwards to clean up the waste. i may wind up going back to chopping since it was a lot easier to undercut as well.