Which chisels for dovetails?

[Tim Cross]

Hi all
I have taken the plunge and decided to learn to cut dovetails by hand instead of using my router jig. I have purchased Rob Cosmans DVD's on through dovetails and sharpening. I bought a Lee Valley dovetail saw as well. I have cut a few sets and am pretty pleased so far. I really like the feel of the Lee Valley saw and I really understand why members here say that it takes a fair bit of practise to get good sawing technique. My real question is about chisels. I have a mixed bag of very average chisels. I have one 1/2 inch Lee Valley Japanese chisel. I am not really fond of this Japanese chisel. I am considering the fairly reasonably priced Ashley Iles MK II set of six plus 2 skews or I read great things about Lie Nielsen although they are pretty pricey considering that I need to covert currency from Canadian to U.S. funds. I forgot to mention that I got 1,4,and 8000 grit Norton stones for Xmas and have been working on sharpening technique. I would be grateful for any chisel selection advise, this seems to be a very informed group. thanks:confused::confused:

[John Keeton]

Tim, it is great to hear from another "Cosman" DT guy! I have enjoyed this venture, and hope you have as well. I looked online at the Ashley Isles, but was concerned that they were not beveled on the sides enough. I have not handled any, however. My Pfeil simply will not clear when I cut small pins without denting the side of the tails.

I have ordered the Blue Spruce which have a very thin side bevel and have received a lot of praise. The LNs are what Cosman uses as he is the Canadian rep for them. I am sure they will work as well.

I did a lot of searching and inquiry, and have found that not many use skew chisels. I actually have one, and thought it would come in handy, but it doesn't add anything to the mix. I would save my money on that choice - at least for now.

Again, welcome, and good luck. Be sure and post some pics - these folks are very generous in their assistance and encouragement.

[Brent Smith]

Hi Tim,

Out of all the chisels that I have, and there are a lot of them, the 2 best for Dts IMO are Blue spruce and Imai sword steel chisels. The Imai are more expensive and harder to get. The BS chisels have a number of things going for them over most other western chisels. First of all, the sides are ground to a fine edge which allows you to get right into the corners of your work. Secondly the sides are also concave which also aids in fine work. They feel just right in the hand and are a good length for optimum control. I find Lie-Nielsen chisels a bit awkward when doing the final cleaning of pins in half blinds. The other problem many have voiced, and I agree, is that the handles tend to fall off.......not something you want in a tool that costs that much. There are ways to fix this problem, but who wants to pay $60 Cdn and have to 'fix' a chisel.

[Alan DuBoff]

You don't really need any special chisels, IMO, any small chisel will do in most cases. It's only in extreme cases where it's hard to get the edge into the corner of the joinery to clean things out, but you could easily cut great dovetails by hand using a normal bench chisel in most cases.

Don't let the lack of a specialized chisel prevent you from giving a shot at hand cut dovetails, you'll find that you don't need all the tools you might think you do.

I like to steer people to this link (http://www.springharvestfww.com/dovetails.htm) at Spring Harvest FWW, George Huron shows how to cut hand cut dovetails with a few basic tools, including a average run of the mill bench chisel.

[Hank Knight]

I agree with Alan: you don't need specialized dovetail chsiels to cut most common dovetails, although I think beveled edges help. The Ashley Iles MK IIs you mentioned are new on the market. They've been redesigned with very thin edges in response to customer requests for chisels that are better for dovetails. I saw them in Berea and thy looked like nice chisels. I don't use Ashley Ies chisels, but most who do, like them.

Hank

[Jim Koepke]

One thing to remember, is make sure your sockets are not smaller than your chisels.

If you have a grinder or even a belt sander that can be mounted, you can buy old chisels and cut them to your liking. Try a few cheap chisels first to get the feel.

jim

[Dave Spaeder]

I find the degree of bevel on a chisel really comes into play on a half-blind dovetail. I cut a few of these recently and found my Ashley Iles bench chisel (not one of the MK2s) did the trick nicely. When it comes to through dovetails, though, I don't notice much of a difference between that chisel and one of its bulkier kindred.

[Brent Smith]

You don't really need any special chisels, IMO, any small chisel will do in most cases. It's only in extreme cases where it's hard to get the edge into the corner of the joinery to clean things out, but you could easily cut great dovetails by hand using a normal bench chisel in most cases.

Don't let the lack of a specialized chisel prevent you from giving a shot at hand cut dovetails, you'll find that you don't need all the tools you might think you do.

I like to steer people to this link (http://www.springharvestfww.com/dovetails.htm) at Spring Harvest FWW, George Huron shows how to cut hand cut dovetails with a few basic tools, including a average run of the mill bench chisel.

Hi Alan,

Tim mentioned that he's already cut some DTs. He also mentioned that he had a selection of chisels at his disposal and was, from my understanding of his post, asking for advise on chisel selection for dedicated DT use. You're right, pretty much any bench chisel can be used to cut the joint, just as any bench chisel could be used to cut a MT joint, but any bench chisel is not necessarily the best for either job. Since the man is considering adding to his tool kit, I think it is our job to point out how best he could spend his money ;). In my opinion, Blue Spruce is his best bet for DT work.

[Alan DuBoff]

In my opinion, Blue Spruce is his best bet for DT work.
I kind of agree, but that's such a blanket statement, I'm not sure how to completely digest it. I have a couple Blue Spruce fishtail chisels which I do like a lot, and his paring chisels look nice, as do the DT chisels, and the new bench chisels he came out with. What Blue Spruce calls a DT chisel is more of a paring chisel, so in that context is not a general all purpose type bench chisel.

I personally feel it's more prudent to have a decent set of bench chisels, and a couple specialty chisels to assist with such tasks as the smallest of dovetails. I use my bench chisels as much as the specialty type.

So, I do agree, Blue Spruce chisels are great, I have a couple I do like a lot, but they are not my goto chisels. But again, which Blue Spruce? The fishtail chisels are great for cleaning out the smallest of dovetails, but the bench chisels would be more useful (even in terms of Blue Spruce).

Maybe I mis-understood the OP, but since he mentioned the LN chisels, those are a good quality set of bench chisels. Come to think about it they do have a new fishtail chisels they came out with. It looks like an excellent specialty chisel. Anyway, maybe I mis-understood and was thinking that the OP wanted to get a set of matched chisels.

All this talk of chisels, I really need to get a shelf made to hold my chisels...:rolleyes:

[John Keeton]

When it comes to through dovetails, though, I don't notice much of a difference between that chisel and one of its bulkier kindred.
Dave, I can't comment on halfblinds because I haven't tried those yet. But, in my recent efforts to conquer through DTs, I found that the Pfeil 1/4" bench chisel would not push through the waste area between the tails if I tried to do very narrow pins. The edge of the chisel dented the side of the pins. That is what lead me to order the Blue Spruce, which are 3 weeks out BTW!!

[Dave Spaeder]

The Blue Spruce are beautiful chisels. I don't tend to do really narrow pins, but if I did, they look like they'd do the trick nicely.

[Tim Cross]

Thanks to all who replied to my chisel question on selecting a set. Very knowledgeable folks here. John, I had the same problem clearing the waste on narrow tail openings without bruising the wood. My Marples and Lee Valley bench chisels are too thick at the shoulder. You feel that your Pfeils are as well? That,s why I was considering the new style MK II Ashley Iles. Apparently they taper to almost nothing. They are attractively priced as well. Do other members see any merit to skewed or fish tail chisels? Are they needed to clean out waste in half blind DT,s. Ultimately I want to progress to half blind DT,s in addition to through DT,s.
The Blue Spruce chisels are stunning. I think they may be a bit delicate to use as a bench chisel though. They look to be more for detail work. I guess there is also the O1 vs A2 debate. I am just starting to feel good about my sharpening too. That,s a whole other disipline. Any tool will only perform to the standard that it,s sharpened to. I have to say this, I am enjoying going to the shop, turning on the music and practicing sawing and cutting dovetails without the scream and mess of a router. Thanks again folks, sure glad I joined this forum.

[Narayan Nayar]

Tim, partially motivated by your query, I posted a mini-review of the new Blue Spruce bench chisels, comparing them to the LNs.

Blue Spruce Bench Chisels & Mallet (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=102848)

You're right--the BS dovetail chisels are not made to be used as bench chisels. These new bench chisels may be just the ticket.

[Derek Cohen]

The ideal chisel for dovetails would have narrow shoulders to get inside angles easily, the ability to take and hold a very sharp edge, be comfortable to hold when paring, yet be substantial the in order that it withstand the abuse of being hit very hard with a mallet.

Cutting dovetails in soft wood and very hard wood require different techniques.

This is the last lot of dovetails I cut - about a week ago. It was quite quickly done overall, but I used different chisels for the woods.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Office/Office-bookcase1.jpg

The hard (very! hard) Jarrah was impossible to pare. I defy anyone to use a paring chisel on this stuff. Forget it! The waste was removed from the half blind pins by sawing and chopping. The chisels I used were Koyamaichi - very tough. I walloped the daylights out of them with a steel face. Although "dovetail" chisels, they do not have sharp arrises, but this is not needed for pins. (If you want sharp arrises, then grind the sides - I have done this on a couple of Matsumuras). For tough wood, nothing comes close to a Japanese blade.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Dovetailnomi.jpg

The four on the left are Koyamaichi and the two on the right or Matsumura.

Cleaning out the inside corners requires a specialist chisel. You can get away without one, but it is harder work. In hard wood like this a fishtail is next to useless. You have to push one and they simply will not cut fibres as tough as this. Hey, I have three fishtails - two Blue Spruce and one I made a long time ago - so I would use them if they worked. In a situation like this a better choice is a skew chisel. These you can use to slice away any waste. I have a couple I made and a couple of Blue Spruce.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Skewchiselsplus.jpg

That funny looking chisel on the right is for pounding into the sides of half blind pins to deepen the kerf.

For medium hard woods and soft woods, such as the pine above, I saw to the line, remove the waste with a coping saw, then pare aware the remainder with Blue Spruce chisels. These really come into their own with through dovetails. If they need a little "persuation", I have a light mallet to give them a love tap (but never anything harder).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/BlueSprucechisels2.jpg

Blue Spruce - 1/8 through 3/4" (Hey Dave, if you are reading this, how is my 3/16" coming along?)

The closest chisel that I come across that combines the virtues of the above chisel in one is the LN bench chisel. The problem is that a chisel needs to be reasonably stout to withstand pounding, and then it loses the desired delicacy for fine paring. And vice versa - a delicate detail/dovetail parer such as the Blue Spruce is not well suited to be hit with a mallet.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Singer]

I would sharpen the chisels you have and apply the concepts in the dvd to practice. Sometimes I grab whatever is handy without concern for the maker and the end results are the same as if I used my most pricey chisel. Same is true of saws western or Japanese ... I use both. With time you will know what you want. If the drawers are 1/2 " thick material then the Blue Spruce ae great! If it is 8/4 like beds and other pieces I have made... Japanese is way better than most in edge holding. There are many little tricks you will pick up. I have an inexpensive two Cherries 1/16" ....it really is handy. So a variety based on practice is what i recommend

[John Keeton]

Mark, you continue to amaze me with your skill and talent!!

So, to you and to Derek, I will be using oak and walnut for fronts, and usually poplar or maple for sides. At this point in my journey, I do not see me using other woods. Given that, can I use the BS "dovetail" chisels to chop out with, or should I change my order to the BS "bench" chisels? My order is presently for the dovetail chisels - 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4.

I still need to pare between the tails and perhaps clean up the floor of the pin boards. I am getting along without much, if any, paring of the sides of pins or tails.

And, with apologies to Tim for a semi-hijack to his thread - although, I hope on topic enough to be helpful to all!

[Mark Singer]

Mark, you continue to amaze me with your skill and talent!!

So, to you and to Derek, I will be using oak and walnut for fronts, and usually poplar or maple for sides. At this point in my journey, I do not see me using other woods. Given that, can I use the BS "dovetail" chisels to chop out with, or should I change my order to the BS "bench" chisels? My order is presently for the dovetail chisels - 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4.

I still need to pare between the tails and perhaps clean up the floor of the pin boards. I am getting along without much, if any, paring of the sides of pins or tails.

And, with apologies to Tim for a semi-hijack to his thread - although, I hope on topic enough to be helpful to all!

I would practice in maple sides and walnut fronts. Poplar is ok for sawing practice, but it compresses and doesn't give the true feel of hardwood.
Oak is good but the coarse grain requires care. I like oak especially white QS. Soft maple is also ok

[Brent Smith]

I want to say that I have had my BS DT chisels for a few years now and have used both a Lignum Vitae mallet and a Japanese chisel hammer on them with very little detrimental affect to the handles (African Blackwood). I know that Dave doesn't recommend this, but what can I say :).

[Derek Cohen]

Dave has said to me that I should go ahead and use a mallet on his chisel handles. However, I tend to be conservative as mine are African Blackwood which, Brent's experience aside, I consider a little too brittle to smack hard. Other woods may be suitable in these chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Hank Knight]

Tim,

The Japanese chisels in Derek 's photo have a modified triangular shape called "shinogi." They are not completely triangular because the sides do not meet the the back of the chisel in a sharp edge like some modern "dovetail chisel." Nevertheless, I find these shinogi chisels very satisfactory for dovetails. I have a set of Matsumura "cabinet makers" chisels (See The Japan Woodworker web site of catalog) that are my favorites for most bench work and especially for dovetails. I made a set of skew chisels for half blind dovetails, but I seldom need them. The shinogi blade is thin enough to get into most tight places, including half blind dovetail sockets. They are light weight and easy to use. The best part about them, as Derek mentioned, is that they take and keep a very sharp edge. If you want a nice set of chisels for dovetails that will serve for other tasks as well, consider a set of Japanese "cabinet makers" chisels from The Japan Woodworker - or any other dealer that sells them.

Hank

[Alan DuBoff]

Hank,

I have those same chisels! I like them a lot! :)

I have about 5 or 6 of them, and I have about 5 of the bench chisels, also blue steel. They are very good also, I had those before the cabinet maker's chisels and got them for the angled sides.

I also have a small 1/16" white steel Matsumura which I use a lot on saw handles to clean up the mortise.

In general I find the Matsumuras to be good quality chisels without too high a price ($30-$50 each).

I use these chisels most of the time, but have a bunch of vintage chisels I use for some tasks.

[Hank Knight]

Hank,
I have those same chisels! I like them a lot! :)



Alan,

It sounds like you and I have had the same experience. I'm a chisel nut and I've collected a bunch of vintage western chisels over the years, including a mixed set of 750s, a set of Everlastings, a bunch of Witherbys and miscellaneous others. I hardly use any of them any more. I prefer the Matsumuras for almost everything. I have some Imai slicks that have taken the place of my Witherby parers and a modest set of Imai "finish" (bench) chisels that I prefer for heavy chopping. The only Western chisels I use anymore are my pig stickers for mortising.

Hank

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan,

It sounds like you and I have had the same experience. I'm a chisel nut and I've collected a bunch of vintage western chisels over the years, including a mixed set of 750s, a set of Everlastings, a bunch of Witherbys and miscellaneous others. I hardly use any of them any more. I prefer the Matsumuras for almost everything. I have some Imai slicks that have taken the place of my Witherby parers and a modest set of Imai "finish" (bench) chisels that I prefer for heavy chopping. The only Western chisels I use anymore are my pig stickers for mortising.

Hank
Yes, that does kinda describe me. I had bought about 5 blue steel Matsumura bench chisels, but had a bunch of various Stanley 750s and other vintage chisels. I have close to a set of the 750s, but not an entire set. They are not matched, just acquired, some are stamped 750 and some are not. I also have a couple Everlast, one in pretty bad shape on th handle, but I got it for $5 at the local flea.

Like you, I use my Matsumuras for most all of my work, but have the Stanleys handy in case I need them for something I might not want to use the Matsumuras for. I have quite a few vintage chisels, a few firmers, a few foundry type mortise chisels, etc...as I started to use the Matsumuras more, I decided to fill the set out, so I filled them in with the cabinet maker's chisels, since those were also blue steel. I'm very happy with them, and was surprised to see that FWW rated them as one of the better chisels. I had bought all of mine before they did that article, just coincidence I had selected them to buy.

I really do feel the Matsumura blue steel chisels are a great value, and nicely made chisels.

FWIW, I bought them on a recommendation from Derek Cohen mostly, about 5 years ago I think. He also has some Matsumura blue steel chisels.

[Derek Cohen]

Like Hank and Alan, I have given up on vintage steel - with the exception of my Berg chisels. The Bergs are fabulous steel and I use them as parers - long, thin blades that are able to hold an edge extremely well. However I have sold my Witherbys and Stanley 750 - as nice as they are, they simply could not hold up to the hard Australian timbers. The edges would fold quite quickly. The Japanese chisels - Matsumura, Iyoroi and Koyomaichi - just keep on keeping on, despite the abuse I heap on them.

Regards from Perth

Derek