Installing hardwood floors [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

John Durscher

01-26-2009, 5:18 PM

I installed hardwood floors and refaced the stairs in my home. I would recommend Hardwood Floors Laying sanding and finishing by Don Bollinger as a good reference.

I used prefinished flooring and am happy with the results. I used the Mirage brand.

Here are a few things that I learned:

- Plan ahead! I didn't think out the transition to a tiled bathroom floor before I started the flooring. It would have been much easier if I thought it through before laying the floor down. It turned out I had to make a custom threshold (fortunately it was pretty easy - just time consuming).
- Screw down the subflooring before you start. I used square head screws.
- Level the subflooring before you start - I got in a hurry and did not do this in one part of the floor and as a result have a couple squeaks that I wouldn't have had otherwise.
- Get a Bosch 1640VS Finecut 3.5 Amp Power Handsaw and a flush cut blade I found this to be much more accurate and easier than cutting door frames by hand.
- If you are using stained pre-finished wood get enough for the project all a one time - dye lots can vary, I've heard of folks having slight color variations.
- Let the wood acclimate to your house before you start.
- I bought a Bostitch pneumatic floor stapler instead of renting. I plan on putting wood floors down in my entire home, so this worked out cheaper than renting.
- I pulled the baseboards off and painted the room before I started the flooring. My original baseboards were nothing special so I replaced them.
- I started in a walk-in closet so I could make my mistakes in part of the room that wouldn't be as noticeable.
- Buy good kneepads!

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Good luck, this is really a pretty easy project - especially for us woodworkers.

John

BOB OLINGER

01-26-2009, 5:22 PM

Shawn,

I've installed close to 2,000 sq ft of prefinished oak tongue and groove (I believe 3" wide) within last 2 yrs. Previous flooring was a combination of carpet, ceramic tile, some vinyl. This was in our house. Need to know more specifics of your project before going further. If I can help, let the questions fly. For what it's worth, it's not all that hard to do, but is physically demanding, especially on us older guys!!!

JohnMorgan of Lititz

01-26-2009, 5:31 PM

My job is flooring - started out as a refinisher, now in sales. But as others have stated, need a little more info.

* Be careful on the kneepads!! The hard-top models WILL LEAVE marks on your new floor
* use a wood flooring nailer - bostitch work well for us
* run screws in the subfloor to eliminate squeaky joints, etc.
* cover your floor with heavy rosin paper - this greatly reduces any squeaks from subfloor/hardwood rubbing. - don't do this and you WILL regret it.
* please please please acclimate the wood to the installation area
* buying a good brand name like Lauzon, Anderson, Chelsea, Mannington will help your install - less waste, better milled boards, tighter fits, less overwood.

* please don't install a "heavy-bevel" Bruce oak floor. No offense to others who may have this, but this look is so completely dated, its not really funny any more. :)

Have fun! these projects don't take very long and are rewarding!

Paul Steiner

01-26-2009, 5:37 PM

I am currently finishing the last 10 square feet of my house. I used prefinished and I am happy with it. I would like to try unfinished, but if you are living in the house unfinished is really hard to deal with.
Recently I did my master bedroom and with prefinished you can move all the furniture to one side of the room. Put flooring on the other then transfer the furniture. If you do unfinished you will want to move everything out of the room or even the house.
Everything John said is good advice. I borrowed a friends fein multimaster to cut the door jambs and it worked well. I bought a Chinese pneumatic nailer on ebay and after 2000+sqft. it is still working well. But I would buy the bostich staples or nails. If I were going to buy again I would buy a grizzly or HF brand, just so I could return it if it went bad. Renting a gun is not worth it.
Check out Lumber Liquidators before you buy from Lowes.
Transition pieces are expensive so I made all my own, it was not hard. I also made my own shoe moulding.
Being a woodworker you can make your own stair treads and save alot of money. Even add inlay. Here is a pic of my steps, they took some time but finished nicely.
Plan ahead, take your time, and don't be afraid to get creative.

JohnMorgan of Lititz

01-26-2009, 5:50 PM

Check out Lumber Liquidators before you buy from Lowes.

Or alternatively, go to your local flooring store and see what they can offer you! If we keep buying from the internet, that's all we'll have left! Times are slow for everyone, so why not see what kind of deal your local guy can offer you.

Chris Padilla

01-26-2009, 5:55 PM

* use a wood flooring nailer - bostitch work well for us
* run screws in the subfloor to eliminate squeaky joints, etc.
* cover your floor with heavy rosin paper - this greatly reduces any squeaks from subfloor/hardwood rubbing. - don't do this and you WILL regret it.
!

If you are tearing out carpet or have some carpet laying around, it works pretty good as a knee pad and as a pad to house a box of tools or to lay the stapler on. Cut out a chunk of carpet, fold it in half...works very well, slides nicely, protects the floor. :)

Definately bounce around on the subfloor and find those squeaks and high, low spots and take care of them. I found a high spot where two pieces of sub met up...took my Rotex and ground the sucker down. :)

I put down two layers of 15# tar paper (30# is typically used on roofs) and so far, it seems fine. I dunno how tar paper compares to rosin paper.

Acclimation is always good. My maple floor is an engineered one but the top layer (~1/8" I think...maybe more) is solid maple. We broke open several boxes, mixed them all up, let them sit for a couple of days while we played with ideas on the best way to lay them down. You may wish to get familiar with the different lengths you have to work with. In ours, we found 8 different lengths but realized that the longest ones were the rarest ones...1 per box. You might want the longer ones to put in front of doors or highest traffic areas.

Don't space out register locations!!! I've heard of folks covering them over...what a pain to locate it after the fact!!

Casey Carr

01-26-2009, 6:30 PM

JohnMorgan of Lititz

01-26-2009, 7:03 PM

This is all assuming you have a subfloor. I glued mine directly on top of my concrete foundation. I don't have a subfloor or crawlspace. Just make sure you put down a vapor barrier if you're going directly on top of concrete. Pretty easy though, just labor intensive. One good tool to have is a nice handsaw for all the little cuts that you'll have to do around closet doorways and what not that you can't just use your miter saw for. I have a Japanese Dozuki from Rockler that I absolutely loved for this. Worked awesome for those little nook and cranny cuts.

Do NOT install any 3/4" solid hardwood on concrete - no matter what you're told. No mfg will ever warrant it.

A vapor barrier is only necessary if you "float" the installation - a proper wood adhesive IS the vapor barrier in "full-spread" glue down applications for engineered hardwood.

Prashun Patel

01-27-2009, 8:42 AM

Thanks all!
Particulars:
13x13ft sunroom. Abutting room is kitchen laid in 'heavybevel' Bruce narrow strip (builder select!).
I'm planning to use dark (prefinished) Brazilian (Jatoba) cherry 3 1/2" wide, 3/4" thick (engineered) on a diagonal in the sun room. Existing floor is vinyl (7 years old). Under is a couple layers of plywood (total about 7/8").

Initial questions:

1) Can I install directly over the vinyl? It's adhered extremely well. Do I require rosin paper or felt if installing on vinyl?

2) When running diagonal, where should I start? If I start away from a wall, how do I 'backfill' into the corner? Should I use a sliptongue? Biscuits?

3) My wife would like a square border and a diagonal center. If I do this, then do I need to mill tongues or grooves and sliptongues into the diagonal piece faces that abutt the border groove?

4) Crown staples or cleat nails?

Paul Steiner

01-27-2009, 4:06 PM

I like staples. They are more robust that cleat nails, cleats sometimes break when you pull them, staples not so much.

Robert LaPlaca

01-27-2009, 5:11 PM

Shawn,

Tauton Press has a great book titled 'Hardwood Floors' by Don Bollinger, sometimes available in the Home Despot book section.

Chris Padilla

01-27-2009, 5:27 PM

I think the vinyl would be fine. I would still tack rosin, tar, or felt paper over it for good measure. If the vinyl is textured, it will help even it out a bit.

For laying diagonal, I think I would tack down a board in the middle of the room, dry lay a bunch of flooring against it to one corner...then adjust the angle until you like it. With a diagonal, you can be off from 45 and no one will be the wiser. Once the angle is established, you can start in the corner.

For the square border, just pay attention to the tongues and grooves. Biscuits make good tongues when needed and the biscuit cutter makes great grooves. :)

Pat Germain

01-27-2009, 9:46 PM

I installed some solid mesquite flooring last summer. It was Lumber Liquidators' "Bellawood" brand. I was very happy with this product. It had very few short pieces and the fit and finish were very good. (FYI, Lumber Liquidators isn't an online source. They have warehouses and showrooms.) Lumber Liquidators is also a very good source for trim pieces. They ain't cheap, but you get most anything by ordering it.

The Bostich stapler is highly recommended, but pricey. I bought a Grizzly flooring stapler which worked great. It was literally half the price of a Bostich. If I was installing flooring for a living, I'd probably buy the Bostich. But for one job, the Grizzly stapler was more than adequate. And it was cheaper than renting.

I would recommend buying Bostich flooring staples. I did a lot of reading about this before I started the flooring project. I saw multiple cases of staple problems from cheaper brands. Just get a great big box of Bostich staples and use as many as you need without worrying about running out.

Like Chris, I used tar paper under the flooring. It worked great and is readily available from any home center in case you need more.

**Be sure to do some practice stapling before you start on your actual floor. Find a few short pieces and staple them into a scrap piece of ply. This will allow you to dial in your compressor and get the hang of the stapler. It's no big deal if the staple blows through a practice piece or doesn't go all the way in. It's a pain on the actual floor!

Tim Reagan

01-27-2009, 10:04 PM

Can I use my PC 1/4 crown staples that are 1.5" long for engineered flooring? or do I need to buy/rent a "flooring" stapler?
thanks,
tim

Pat Germain

01-28-2009, 9:00 AM

Can I use my PC 1/4 crown staples that are 1.5" long for engineered flooring? or do I need to buy/rent a "flooring" stapler?
thanks,
tim

You really should use a flooring stapler. The install will be much easier with a flooring stapler. And it has a big advantage in that it's designed to staple the flooring pieces very tightly together. It has a trigger which is activated by hitting it with a hammer. This simultaneously knocks the flooring tightly together and drives the staple in. I also don't think 1.5" would be long enough for the staples.

One more thing: Flooring staples are coated with a resin. When the staple is driven into the floor, the resin gets hot and helps the staple to stick into the subfloor. I don't know if you can get such resin coated staples to fit a PC crown stapler.

If you're going to install thousands of dollars worth of flooring, it's well worth it to cough up $250 for a flooring stapler. You could always sell it when you're finished with it. Or, for that matter, you might try to find someone who is selling his flooring stapler after he finished his install.

Jack Hutchinson

01-28-2009, 9:58 AM

Lots of good advice here - one caution, or at least consideration. If you're installing diagonal, establish your line with the longest run of flooring you can. I work very deliberately, so I screw down 8 or 10 inch strips of plywood to a chalkline and butt the first course of flooring to that. Then add half a dozen courses of flooring away from the plywood before removing it, inserting a spline in the groove of that first run and working in the other direction. If you glue in the spline, then you can nail the first run from both sides.

If I start from a corner it's too difficult for me to hold a straight line as the courses lengthen.

- Jak

Chris Padilla

01-28-2009, 11:27 AM

I rented a Bostich floor nailer/stapler from the borg and bought the associated Bostich nails from them as well. I think they were the cleat nails...the are shaped like an "L". I think I spent around $100 for rental and nails from the borg so it was a good deal. I did consider buying but with my dad helping me and us planning things out well to maximize the rental time, things went pretty quickly.

My dad chummed it up pretty good with the rental guy and so we got a freshly tuned up floor nailer to use. It worked fabulously! :D

Casey Carr

01-28-2009, 12:14 PM

Do NOT install any 3/4" solid hardwood on concrete - no matter what you're told. No mfg will ever warrant it.

A vapor barrier is only necessary if you "float" the installation - a proper wood adhesive IS the vapor barrier in "full-spread" glue down applications for engineered hardwood.

Guess I should have clarified. Without trying to hijack this, why can't you glue solid wood down? I was wanting solid wood, but was told I couldn't glue it down on concrete. The only option I could find was the engineered wood. And that glue is not cheap, especially considering you have to put a layer down as a vapor barrier, let that dry and then add more glue to put the planks down.

Chris Padilla

01-28-2009, 12:25 PM

Casey,

I imagine for the same reason a hardwood table top needs careful consideration of how it is attached to its legs/support: wood moves! If you try to restrict the movement by glueing it down solid, it may end up splitting on you.

Just imagine the floor as a HUGE table top...it will change dimensionally from end to end (across the grain) a fair amount! This is why many folks like engineered floors...the worry of excessive movement from solid wood is mitigated quite a bit.

Prashun Patel

01-28-2009, 2:15 PM

Awesome advice!

I'm still considering running a herringbone border around the perimeter of the room. If I do, then do I need to mill tongues or grooves into the abutting field diagonal piece ends, or is it ok to use butt joints to the border. Sorry for the rudimentary pic, but I'm talking about the joint that the arrow is pointing to.

Thx.

Chris Padilla

01-28-2009, 5:39 PM

Shawn,

Biscuits? This means your outer square border will need to have the tongue ripped off so you can cut a biscuit slot.

Or, can you get lucky enough that the groove will hold a biscuit? Biscuit cutters slice a 5/32" wide slot, I think. Glue the biscuit into the diagonal piece only and then slide it in as usual.

Or, leave the tongue on the square border and cut an apporpriate groove into the diagnol? A router table or table saw could be used here although the TS would be somewhat cumbersome unless you built a jig to hold the board (kind of like you would for cutting splines into a picture frame).

However you do it, the main point is to ensure there is some kind of secure yet floating connection between the diagonal boards and the boarder boards and that means "ixnay" on the butt joint.

I have a concern about the joint between the diagonol piece and the border: I'm betting all the floor pieces are rounded over to some extent. As soon as you cut the diagonal to mate with the border, you've lost that roundover so that will be another step in the process. If you skip the border, there is no issue with this since the cut diagonals will be hidden under base molding. If the floor is prefinished, this is an even larger headache....

Jim Andrew

01-28-2009, 8:55 PM

I read some about wood flooring on woodweb, Dr Gene has some good advice, one thing I recall was about putting a little glue in the grooves, as it ties the flooring together and makes it shrink and swell as one piece. Think there was some advice as to putting vapor barriers under it as well.

Prashun Patel

01-28-2009, 10:26 PM

How does the floor float if it's nailed to the subfloor?

Chris, I take your point about the microbevel. I think for my 1st project, I'll just skip the border.

Terry Brogan

01-28-2009, 11:46 PM

Shawn:

You can install over vinyl if your staples or nails are long enough to get well into the plywood below. Standard staples are 2", and that's into only 3/4 ply. I use 1 1/2" staples myself. If the vinyl is still adhering well and no squeaks, no need for felt or rosin paper except that felt paper will inhibit occasional water or wine spills from soaking into the subfloor.

On ordinary floors, you spend some quality time setting the first row parallel to the one wall and perpindicular to the other two, because every other row depends on that. Then you work you way across the room. If the room is large, I set a "spline row" in the center that has tongues on both sides, and work outward from that in both directions. The reason is that wood expands and contracts in width far more than in length, and fixing the center board with stapes on both sides effectively cuts the room in half.

For diagonals within a square frame, I would set two sides of the frame first, then fill in the diagonals from one corner to the opposite ones. Nailing down boards is simple--if you measured correctly. Measurement is everything. I do custom designs in my floors, and I create the design in a spreadsheet, so I can calc the board lengths all at once and cut boards in batches. In theory you ought to be able to cut the whole floor at once, but with complex designs, you can't.

Yes, you will have to cut some tongues and grroves. Do grooves on a router table with a slot cutter bit--works perfectly and is fast. Cut the board then rout it. If you must create tongues, buy precut splines from a flooring supplier and glue them in. Long runs of splines need to be expoxied. You can buy a tongue-and-groove set of router bits that will do both, though.

For a sunroom, remember that the sun will fade dark-stained floor boards.

If you have more questions, fire away. This work isn't hard if you're patient.

Terry Brogan

01-28-2009, 11:53 PM

Shawn:
The loss of the microbevel in the cut joint where the diagonals meet the border isn't nearly as significant as putting a tongue or a groove on the diagonals. Butt joints, as Chris rightly says, are bad. The board will ride up and down with the (significant) seasonal variations in temp and humidity without the tongue or spilne to hold them in the same plane. The foot won't notice the missing microbevel. It will the butt joint.

I left you a longer answer above about how to do the pattern and the tongues and grooves, but since I wasn't paying attention <g>, it didn't fall down here at the end like it was supposed to.

Prashun Patel

01-29-2009, 8:56 AM

Thanks, Terry. After careful consideration, I'm going to nix the border. The wood is cherry. The boards at the showroom showed considerable darkening with exposure.

I'll do the spline row as you suggest.
Thanks for the tip on the xtra long nails. I might've overlooked that. I'll post pix on Sun after I complete.

Bob Wingard

01-29-2009, 10:16 AM

Chris Padilla

01-29-2009, 12:19 PM

Bob,

My thoughts on this: I seriously doubt that the joint on a T & G floor is tight enough, even with glue, to seal it from water penetration. Water gets through EVERYTHING unless specifically designed not to. I'm not sure I'd EVER put a solid hardwood floor in a kitchen due to the water issue. I would put down an engineered floor...maybe. Tile of some kind would be my first choice, however.

Lets think about the reason for a T & G floor: it allows the wood to move yet keeps it secure and flat to the floor.

Keep in mind this is mostly applicable to solid wood floors. Engineered floors are a different beast as they are more stable and move much less.

Prashun Patel

01-29-2009, 12:27 PM

Lets think about the reason for a T & G floor: it allows the wood to move yet keeps it secure and flat to the floor.

Chris-
If the floor is nailed down, how does it float?

Chris Padilla

01-29-2009, 12:29 PM

It is nailed on one side only...so it can expand the other direction. It doesn't 100% float, obviously. :)

Prashun Patel

01-29-2009, 12:31 PM

Ah so! (yes, it should have been obvious).

michael osadchuk

01-29-2009, 12:45 PM

We were tossing around the do's & don'ts of this awhile back in a local store, and no one has yet come up with a definite answer:

One guy is considering gluing the t&g joints on his installation .. he is hoping that it will seal the joint to some degree to prevent any spilled liquid from getting deep into the joints. The application is a kitchen, where water might be spilled.

Any thoughts on this ??

I know I've never seen any manufacturer promote gluing the long joints, but I've never seen it prohibited either.

the tongue and groove joint on flooring is not tight and is not meant to be glued; if you go to the website of a manufacturer of shaper cutters such as Freeborn and look up the profile of a dedicated flooring tongue and groove set you will see that there is some "air space" both on one horizontal side and one vertical side of the tongue and groove......

link to flooring cutter profile: www.freeborn.com/flooring_cutter_set.htm

..... people have wood flooring in kitchens; it is not the occasional spill of a pot of water that causes wood floors buckling but the immersion of the whole floor from a "flood"....

good luck

michael

jack duren

01-29-2009, 6:44 PM

Here are a few pictures from my installation...

Dennis Thornton

01-31-2009, 12:08 PM

It is nailed on one side only...so it can expand the other direction. It doesn't 100% float, obviously. :)

Sorry, this may sound dumb, but isn't the other direction against another strip that is nailed down? So the only available movement is in the joint, and since there isn't any gap the room for movement is 0?

Prashun Patel

02-02-2009, 12:39 PM

Thanks for so many tips. I installed the floor this weekend. It came out great. I installed it on a diagonal - no border. Lessons learned:

1. Starting from the middle of the room worked out great. Kept the line true and straight.
2. I tongue-glued the last few pieces in each corner since I couldn't get the stapler in there. Is that ok? I was trying to avoid face-nailing (not that it's the end of the world).
3. The 45 degree ends at the end of each row proved a pain to position, since it's hard to pull them tight against the penultimate piece. I found the easiest way to do this was to 'heel' in the last piece against the penultimate piece such that when you tap it against the prevous row, the heel trues up and flushes the end.

Prashun Patel

02-04-2009, 10:13 AM

Here's a pic of the corner. I had to get creative with some tiny corner pieces...

frank shic

02-04-2009, 10:28 AM

looks nice shawn! kudos to you for having the guts to lay it out diagonally - i'll probably just straight line it in my next house.

Chris Padilla

02-04-2009, 12:00 PM

Shawn,

Very nice job! The way to get pieces tight when you can't reach them is to use a special tool whose name escapes me. It is basically a longish piece of bar steel with a small hook on one end that you place against the floor board. The other end of the bar is folded up in an L-shape so that you can hit the small leg of the L and thus you can pull the floor board tight.

For your next diagonal job, save some longish boards so you can avoid having to put in tiny pieces as you reach the corners. For the very corner, you may wish to glue 2-3 boards togther to give additional support but corners don't typically have much abuse done to them....

Face nailing is fine because your base molding will hide it...assuming you are careful where you face nail! :)

Chris Padilla

02-04-2009, 12:06 PM

Sorry, this may sound dumb, but isn't the other direction against another strip that is nailed down? So the only available movement is in the joint, and since there isn't any gap the room for movement is 0?

The boards fit tightly together along their joint but within the T&G, there is space to grow. In other words, the tongue is not tightly pressed up against the groove.

Prashun Patel

02-04-2009, 12:12 PM

Chris-
Then to my point, I glued the last few tongues into the grooves when I worked into the corners bkz I couldn't get my nailer into there. My theory is that the triangular 'piece' I effectively created will expand as a single space and that the 1/2" gap at the walls is enough to absorb the expansion - provided I don't face nail those pieces into the floor. Does this make sense?

Chris Padilla

02-04-2009, 12:22 PM

Shawn,

Yes, makes sense to me and will be just fine since it is the corner and can move on two sides very easily.

Since you used prefinished engineered, you have little worry about movement anyway. Dontcha love prefinished?!!

Prashun Patel

02-04-2009, 1:14 PM

Yep, it's a beautiful thing. I love engineered too. Virtually every piece was dead straight (or at least easily cajolable!)

Prashun Patel

02-06-2009, 9:13 AM

Anybody have creative ideas about trimming a cathedral ceiling? Besides the standard crown molding.

Chris Padilla

02-06-2009, 10:44 AM

Yes: Don't! :)

I have cathedral ceilings in my home and the wife didn't want any trim up there in the recent living room gut/remodel. We just carefully painted at the wall/ceiling point.

Putting crown molding on cathedrals is tricky and you'll find lottsa tricks out there on the good ole web to handle the corners.

Prashun Patel

02-06-2009, 12:12 PM

Yeah, I'm carefully cutting in now, but it just looks incomplete. Thought about just painting the whole ceiling too the same color as wall, but it's too dark.

Chris Padilla

02-06-2009, 12:36 PM

Typically, you want the ceiling to be a light color so that it feels bigger/roomier.

Our cathedrals ceilings are a light buttery color, the walls are a caramel color, and we have one accent wall that is dark chocolate...no kidding, our living room looks like a Snickers bar! ;) hahaha

Prashun Patel

02-20-2009, 10:57 PM

The flash stinks, but you can get the idea.

Chris Padilla

02-21-2009, 2:16 AM

Awesome, Shawn!! :)

fRED mCnEILL

02-21-2009, 2:25 AM

Regarding hot air registers, when we did our hardwood floor it was unfinished so had to be sanded and finished. I found a guy who makes hot air registers and took him some of my flooring so he could make then out of the same wood. They look great. But you can also buy commercial hardwood registers that come with a frame. By using the frames you eliminate the task of "finding" the register hole after floor installation.

Fred Mc.

Art Mulder

02-21-2009, 9:41 AM

Shawn, the job looks great.
For anyone else reading this threading and thinking about it... Here is a link (http://www.wordsnwood.com/2008/hardwood/) to a photo essay of my own hardwood flooring installation from Feb'08. I was a complete newbie at the time, and there were plenty of things I learned that I would love to pass along to others.

As for face nailing... yeah I really hated having to face nail the last two-three rows. But really, once the holes are filled you never see it again. The furniture along the wall covers a lot of it anyway.

You really should use a flooring stapler.
...
If you're going to install thousands of dollars worth of flooring, it's well worth it to cough up $250 for a flooring stapler. You could always sell it when you're finished with it. Or, for that matter, you might try to find someone who is selling his flooring stapler after he finished his install.

Yes you should really get a flooring stapler. (or flooring nailer.)

But I really don't see the point in buying one. Just rent one from Home Depot. Renting a flooring nailer for a day (24hrs) costs the same as buying one box of flooring nails/staples. (about $30 when I did the job).
So why would I buy the tool, unless I'm going to use it again and again?

eta: I have no opinion on the nailing vs stapling side of things. The guy at the rental desk said that he rented more nailers than staplers, but not by a huge amount. I had to rip out a board 2 or 3 times, and let me tell you it was a HUGE pain in the neck. If staples hold even more, then I'm kind of glad I didn't use them... ;)