What handtools do I need?

[Dale Morris]

I am a novice woodworker, but I have most of the major power tools, TS,BS, Biscuit jointer, router table, planer, jointer, scroll saw, etc. But the only hand tools I have are hand saws, a couple of Japanese type pull saws, marking gauge and a decent set of Marples chisels. No planes, or any of the other older hand tools. Do I really need to get certain items and if so what brands should I buy, and what are the basic handtools I need?


Dale

[Narayan Nayar]

Depends a lot--perhaps entirely--on what you want to do.

You may well in fact have all the handtools you need.

I'm not trying to be flip--just saying that having the tools would normally serve some sort of purpose. So what do you want to do? Build furniture with just handtools? Assemble your machine-dimensioned boards with some hand joinery?

[Brian Kent]

For any woodworking I would see a fine smooth plane and a block plane as essentials.

[Jim Kountz]

Boy this is about as wide open of a topic as you can get. It really depends on the WAY you want to work. Any piece of furniture of cabinetry could be built a hundred ways using a hundred methods. Some prefer all hand tools, some prefer machining as much as possible. Maybe tell us a little about the kinds of things you are interested in building and go from there.

[Rick Barton]

You can never have enough chisels nor handplanes. ;)

[Alan DuBoff]

Curious, why do you ask about hand tools in the power tool forum?

SMC has a hand tool forum here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?f=4), which is called Neanderthal Haven.

That would be the more appropriate place to ask this, and where the mods may move this thread once they see it. ;)

[Thomas Pender]

I think Dale's question is a legitimate question for this forum. He tends to be power tool heavy at the moment and he is asking what hand tools would compliment what he has. The Neanders do a lot of stuff by hand and many even do it all by hand. For me, it is a question of time, so I use power tools to buy me time - like a jointer for flattening the face of a board or for edge joinery.

However, I have many hand tools that compliment what I do. First, I could not survive without by LV Low Angle Block Plane, my LV Bevel Up Smoothing Plane, my LV Medium Shoulder Plane, and now, my big LV Bevel Up jointer plane (since I make many panels wider than my planer). I also value my marking gages, my awl, my mallet, my chisels, my cabinet scrapers, my various squares, straight edges, draw knives, and my biggest hand tool, my bench, bench dogs, and big vise. And this is from a guy with Festool stuff, an Oneida Cyclone, and various green machines from Grizzly.

What I found is that I want more hand tools the further I get in our hobby. While I do want to purchase a big sliding European Table saw in the future and am considering a monster planer and a bigger band saw, most of my budget, beyond replacing knives and router bits, is for new hand tools, because, well, I like them and what they do. In addition, they do some things pwoer tools cannot and raise a real sweat on occasion (try planing oak with a scrub plane, followed by a Jack, and then a smoother.) I want to buy some new LN and LV planes (LV makes some wonderfully useful stuff) and figure until I have about 25 (or more;)) planes, I am not near finished. Hand tools are fun to use, deliver real gratification, and produce less dust.

But, if you can do what you want with what you have, then you are fine. It is just, IMHO, better to have good hand tools. You can do more and like I said, many are essential for what I do. Thus the question you have to answer is: Can I do what I want with what I have as well as I want to do it?

[Frank Drew]

I second Brian's recommendation of a block plane; even doing carpentry you can find uses for one.

Of course any tool can be useful, and most expand the possiblities of the work you can do.

[Dale Morris]

Jim, furniture mainly, I'm not interested in making them by hand just in having the right hand tools when I need them to tweak what I'm doing if it needs it. I think sometimes it might be a little easier to do small projects with some hand tools, but what do I know, I'm just learninig.

[Dale Morris]

Thanks, Thomas

Yopu understand my question well. First of all like all creekers I am a tood nut, I also want to learn as much as I can. I am not neccessarly into bgeing a purist and making it all handmade, i just want to have the tools to do what ever works best for the particular project AI'm working on. Would your suggest the 5 or 6 most imnportand hand tools, I have all the marking gauges, and squaresm, etc but no planes and draw knives and those kind opf hand tools. I'm also not up on the good brands, I do a lot of buying on ebay and I need to know what to look for.


Dale


Than

[Dale Morris]

Wow I hads a bunch of typos, sorry I didn't proof it

[Alan DuBoff]

Dale,

Rather than going out and buying the 5 most common tools you may need, why not take each project one at a time. If you need a saw for a project, get one. If you need a hand plane for a project, get one.

Tool nut or not, there is no sense in getting tools if your not going to use them. I am as bad as anyone else, I'm just saying that the best way is to acquire your tools is based on the projects you will complete, that makes the most sense.

If you going around to flea markets and garage sales, by all means get what you can as the prices will be a fraction of what they sold for new. That is how I got a good amount of tools that I own. This method is not without fault, and can lead to some tools with missing parts, or that don't function properly, so caveat emptor.

Once you decide on a project, look for the tools you will need.

It's easy for any of us to tell you, "oh, go buy a drawknife, a spokeshave, a few chisels, a few planes, some backsaws, full size handsaws, beading tools, molding planes, holdfasts, clamps, vises, solid bench, marking tools, measuring tools, straight edges, etc...this will not end and the slope for hand tools is steep...

If your just looking to start acquiring with no project in mind, a block plane is very handy, I have an old Stanley 60 1/2 that I like. If your going to be planing faces of boards, a smoother is good to have, and a jointer after that, and a fore after that possibly...

However you do it, try to get decent tools, ones that you think will handle the tasks you need to perform, and will last indefinitely. Could be a reasonably priced vintage Stanley plane, or an expensive LN plane, the choices are out there for your specific pocketbook.

As an example, I dimension my timber/lumber with power tools, so I don't need full size handsaws. They are mostly for ripping and crosscutting lumber to dimensions. But I do have a lot of backsaws, I use those for joinery. Ok, I will admit, saws are a weakness of mine, so much that I make my own rather than acquiring them. ;)

I am also a chisel freak, I love chisels and reach for them a lot as they bail me out of even the most detailed problems.

Don't just take my word or someone else, understand what tools you will need for the project you will build. I use spokeshaves all the time, you may not use them at all. I use backsaws a lot, you might not use them at all. I don't see how anyone can read the tea leaves on the projects you might want to craft, other than yourself. ;)

[Dale Morris]

Thanks Alan,
I guess one of my problems with not knowing what to buy first is that I'm not sure what the capabilities of each type of hand tool is. Since I have most ot the power tools, ie jointer, TS, BS, planer, sanders, and a really nice router table I use them a lot because that is what I know. But I like too use scrapers, and am learning how to cut DT's by hand so I want to expand my skills, maybbee I want too much too fast, (wouldn't be the first time for that) I buy a lot on Ebay so if anyone sees tools that might be good to start with send me the link. Thank you for your kind help.


Dale

[Zahid Naqvi]

I think Aln gave you good advice, buy one tool at a time on an as needed basis and slowly and gradually as you learn more you will be able to make up your mind as to what you prefer/like doing by handtools. Atleast that's how I got sucked into this prehistoric way of working :eek:

[Alan DuBoff]

I use them a lot because that is what I know.
Dale,

One thing that would be good to ask yourself before you ask which tools to buy, is, "what can be done with handtools that would compliment your current tools which you know and use (and feel comfortable with).

I think you have just given some information that is helpful. There is nothing wrong with using tools that you know how to use, and to leverage those features in your projects, and hand tools are no different in that regard.

I have a lot of the same power tools as you do. I don't use my router too much, and don't have a router table for it, but it's a plunge router and most of my work is all done without a table when I do use it. There are a lot of molding planes, and those would do similar, but by hand. If your comfortable with your router, or tailed router as Neanderthals refer to, there is nothing wrong with that.

If your happy with your planer, you don't need to worry about most bench planes, and especially if you like using your jointer. These are tasks that can be done by hand.

Hand cut dovetails is one area you have mentioned, and a bench plane does in fact come in handy for that though. After you have completed your joinery, most folks like to use a smoother to flush up the surface on the joint to make it the most attractive. For that you can even use a block plane, but I would recommend a smoother as a better tool.

A scraper is also a great tool to compliment your planer (as you mentioned), since some of the most difficult grain can only be tamed with a scraper. The wild quilted and birds eye, or any highly figured woods, many will give tear out as the grain is changing direction and it's impossible to follow it in any reasonable manor.

Personally, I wouldn't go overboard on dovetail chisels, but it's no bad to have a matched set to use, I have a mixed set of bench and dovetail style, and have 2 Blue Spruce fishtail chisels, in 6:1 and 8:1 tapers. The fishtails are very low profile and there is no better tool for that. The new LN fishtail looks nice also.

Also for dovetails, of course saws are needed. Can't have too many of those. But in general there are two types, rip for cutting with the grain, and crosscut for cutting against it. You say you have a couple Japanese saws, but don't say if they are both rip or rip and crosscut or what. In general make sure you have both. Use a crosscut to cut across the grain, such as cutting the half pin off the end of the tail boards. Western saws might be something to try, there are many folks that started off on Japanese saws but are switching or migrate to western saws after. A western dovetail saw might be something to try. Would be nice to find another creeker in your area that could let you try one.

Another area to consider is hand chopped mortises. Even if you use a tailed router for them, a mortise chisel works well for squaring up the corners. A bench chisel will also do if the work is a reasonable size. A mortise chisel is nice as they get larger. For the tenon that will go inside, a rabbet plane is good for cleaning up the cheeks, and a shoulder plane for cleaning up the shoulders, chisels will also work, so no need to get all these tools, since you can use a chisel. It all depends on what you do a lot, and how often, IMO.

If I could give you just one recommendation before you get any of the mentioned, make sure you can sharpen the tools you do have/get. Make sure you know how to use stones (oil or water) or sand paper (scary sharp), or a water grinder of some sort. Having sharp tools is way more important than how many tools you have. In fact, I would say if you don't have any means to sharpen, I would put that on the top of your list and take it upon yourself to learn how to keep your edge tools properly sharp before you get too busy with acquisitions. You must sharpen your chisels already, but if you don't you should have that at the top of your list as well. Since you use Japanese saws, chances are you can't sharpen them, that is one downside to Japanese pull saws. Make sure you have the proper saw to cut the type of wood you want to work, many of the Japanese saws do not cut hardwood very well.

Lastly, if you don't have a good solid workbench, think about making one if nothing else but to use for chopping dovetails. That is just about as important as sharpening, but I think I would put sharpening at the top of the list when it comes to hand tools. You will find that if you start to do tasks with hand tools, you will want a decent bench to do it on.;)

That should give you some things to think about.

[John Sanford]

Short and sweet:

A low angle adjustable mouth block plane (New: Lie-Nielsen or Veritas, used: legions).

Card scrapers.

Medium shoulder plane (New: Lie-Nielsen or Veritas, used: legions).



The block plane will allow you to tweak some joints, level plugs and endgrain, and generally get a sense of how planes work.

The shoulder plane will allow you to tweak tenons and to a lesser extent, rabbets. Doing either with powertools is a PITA.

The card scrapers are great for removing glue squeezeout, removing finish runs and blops, and removing small areas of machine marks. Card scrapers can also be used in many situations in place of sandpaper. (not in all, merely many). This ability can be especially useful when you don't want the noise and dust of sanding.

Order of priority is order listed. Beyond the above listed, (especially the first two), yeah, let either your interests or projects dictate the tools. If you decide spindle chairmaking is the direction you want to go, then you'll need a different toolset than a carver or somebody who wants to focus on Arts and Crafts furniture.

The most basic handtool is a good workbench. What defines "good" though depends, again, on the work and how you do it.

[Dale Morris]

Alan, You have been very helpful. You brought up a point that was going to be my next question which was abolut sharpening. I have an old atlas grinder/hone with a vertical grinding wheel and a horizontal slow turning hone. It has no rest on it and since I bought it used I was not sure if it was and oil or water stone so I have been using oil on it. I have just sharpened a few chisels with it. I don't know what angle my chisels should be sharpened at so I have just been trying to follow original bevel, but I noticed it was hard to get them square. I would appreciate any suggestions as to what I shoulod do about sharpening. You guys here at Neaderthal seem to be more helpful then some of the other rooms. I really appreciate it.

[Thomas Pender]

Dale

The best thing about the Creek if the fact that folks really try and help and I think you received helpful advice. One thing they did not mention is that you need a "toy" catalog if you do not have one. That is, you need to get the Lee Valley (or Woodcraft, etc.) catalog for examples of superb hand tools. I spend hours just looking and sometimes I do not know I need it until I see it.

I bought handtools because I needed them for a project or realized I was doing things the hard way. On occasion, I bought them because they looked useful. Now, like I indicated in my original reply to you, I am hooked.

Re sharpening - that is so much the key. Hand tools are just paperwieghts unless they are very sharp. You may think it is sharp, but after months of practice, you will get them really sharp and things will work much better. Myself, I use the LV MK II jig with an 800 grit waterstone, followed, by a 4000, 8000, and 10000 - plus I lap the back carefully. (I bought the kit with the stones, stojne pond, and jig to begin with and have supplemented it - best money I ever spent.) I do this because of the excellent advice I have received from various Neanderthals here. There are also other valid alternatives - this just happens to work for me.

[Tom Grebis]

I am a carpenter by trade and recently started working with hand tools. I think you should buy as you seem to need a tool. Otherwise you'll have plenty of handtools but you might be overwelmed with learning how to use them. Learning to sharpen would be a priority. I wouldn't go near a bench grinder with any kind of expensive tool. (Made that mistake) The standard gray wheels will toast your blades quick. The waterstone is the route I am taking with a cheap honing guide. Patience is key. The next thing would be to build a bench. I built a bench first thing but didn't put a vise or dogholes in it. It just sat and collected all my tools. I finally finished putting the front vise on and a dog hole behind it. Unbelievable!!! I use it every day now....