Ron Smith & other LDD Soap Users

[W.C. Turner]

I've got my detergent, but haven't tried it yet.

Does using the LDD soap method on bowls, in any way affect being able to use the bowls in actual food usage? Can you put food items in them, or does the soap affect taste afterward?

Thanks,

W.C.

[Barbara Gill]

I haven't tasted any chips but there does not seem to be any problem with soap flavored bowls or contents.:D

[Ron Smith ... Richmond, VA]

I've not had any soap taste come out ... but I've only used the one's I've done so far with fruit in them. After they dry, you would final sand and apply whatever finish you wanted, just as you normally would. Have fun turning. I think using the LDD will make you happy. It takes a lot of the waiting and drying issues out of the turning, at least for me. I have mine in a large beverage cooler, so it doesn'y evaporate on me.

[Harvey Meyer]

Trying LDD for the 1st time based on Ron's recommendations. Soaked a cherry bowl for 2 days and waiting for it to dry a bit before I finish turn. And I have a box elder bowk soaking right now. Waiting to see the results.

Harvey

[Ron Smith ... Richmond, VA]

Waiting to see the results.

Harvey [/B][/QUOTE]

Harvey ... be sure and let me know how they turn out, and how you liked the process. I have three cherry rough turned bowls soaking now. I hope to finish them Wdnesday or Thursday.

[W.C. Turner]

I exchanged emails with Ron Kent, and he said "Since my work is for display, I don't know". This regarding any after taste from using the soap soak on any bowls, etc., that will be used in food consumtion.

I also asked him what his current ratio of water vs detergent is. His reply, "Most recent usuage has been 2, 3, 4 ,parts water to one of detergent".

So, bottom line, appears to be trial and error, and whatever works for you. Keep experimenting til you find a happy medium, what works for one, will not necessarily work for someone else. In other words, YMMV.

"Good Turning"

[Bob Oswin]

Please excuse me for barging in on you but I would like to know a bit more about the use of soap in turnings.
Can you give me a reference?

Regards
Bob

[W.C. Turner]

Bob,

You can read about the "LDD" solution at:

http://ronkent.com then click on Techniques.

[Garrett Lambert]

QUOTE

The Soap Solution - Leif O. Thorvaldson

Having a reawakening to the pleasures of woodturning after a gap of four years, I plunged into it with enthusiasm. Joining the South Puget Sound Chapter AAW, buying books and videos and eagerly reading all the posts on rec.crafts.woodturning along with visiting every site, both personal and commercial. I became increasingly discomfited by what I read and learned.

Experienced turners and professional turners were constantly carrying on about multitudinous ways of "drying" wood so as to avoid cracking. One way in particular had my hasty heart dismayed when it was described that one should rough turn the wood, slather it up with various lotions and potions and let it sit for six months to six years. One was to build an enormous
pile of these objects by constantly adding to the drying rack and, at the end of the six months (or six years), check to see if the roughed out blank had cracked or warped so badly as to be unusable. If not, one could then turn it to completion, finish it and hope that it wouldn't crack thereafter.

Faster methods were suggested: boiling, micro waving, burying in manure piles, compost heaps, sawdust piles, storing in sealed plastic bags, unsealed plastic bags, dry paper bags, wet paper bags, immersing or spraying with WD-40, ad nausea. None of these did what I wanted to do, i.e., pickup a piece of green wood, turn it, sand it and finish it within a day or two without unsightly cracks occurring. One fateful day, browsing on my computer while waiting for the first six months to elapse, I encountered a very lovely website by Ron Kent (http://www.ronkent.com/RKgallery.html). He had some beautiful Norfolk Pine turnings -- very thin -- and used some unique finishing techniques. All very nice, but what struck me was a technique he had developed for stabilizing and conditioning wood. He had tried the expensive route, but was looking for something under $50 per gallon.

To make his story short, he found that Costco's house brand (Kirkland) liquid dishwashing detergent mixed with an equal amount of water provided hitherto unavailable qualities
in both conditioning and stabilizing of wood for almost immediate turning and finishing I went to Costco and purchased four half gallon containers of the magic elixir along with a sturdy plastic storage bin of sufficient size to hold the mixture and some bowl blanks. Upon arrival at home, I emptied the detergent into the container and added an equal amount of water. From then
on, I would take primarily green wood and rough turn in one day, soak overnight, and finish the next day. Sometimes I didn't finish it on the second day and left it mounted on the lathe overnight and sometimes for a several days. Surprise! They didn't crack! I have since taken green wood, rough turned it, soaked it about four hours and then finish turned it and finished it in one day. In the six to eight months I have been using this technique, I haven't had one bowl crack. A few had a bit of movement, but
it was very slight. I have used the following woods: black walnut, vine maple, maple, oak (kiln dried), yew, honey locust, fruiting cherry, birch, plum, apple. I have not tried madrona as I refuse to cut down the only one I have growing on my property.

Needless to say, I was ecstatic and proceeded to share my "discovery" with any and all turners I knew (two) and also spread the word on rec.crafts.woodturning (a regular not-so-little Johnny Appleseed I was!). A few turners were lured into trying it. Unfortunately, some people can't follow directions and tried variations on the simple recipe which resulted in cracking. A few did it correctly and were rewarded with success. There has been some speculation as to the mechanism behind the process, but
no real scientific investigation has been done. Lyn Mangiameli, John Nicklin and I have come up with the following theory which John set to words ”The soap solution sets up an osmotic gradient. Pure water in the wood is in more abundance than water in the soap solution, so it (the water) tries to migrate to balance the osmotic pressure. This would cause the specific
gravity of the soap solution to decrease (although possibly not noticeably.)

On the other hand, the concentration of soapy stuff is higher outside the wood than in, so it tries to migrate into the wood. If it is successful in migrating into the cells, the soapy solids will get trapped as the wood dries, preventing the cells from collapsing as they do when wood dries naturally (or unnaturally for that matter.)

As you point out, the soap solution is slicker than a Teflon banana peel. This may help the migration of soapy solids into the cells." An attempt was made by Lyn to conduct a survey to gather details for a study on the detergent/soap technique. Unfortunately, he received only 11 responses from turners, so feels that no meaningful statement can be made as to the efficacy of the process.

The only slight drawback to the detergent solution is that the wood should be drained for a few minutes or longer and wiped with a towel while mounting it to the headstock. A plastic sheet should be placed over the ways and eye protection should be worn. Try it! Your hands will be smoother, cleaner and less subject to cracking as well as your turnings.
Leif O. Thorvaldson
Eatonville, WA
360-832-4352

UNQUOTE

Cheers, Garrett

[Bob Oswin]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Oswin
Please excuse me for barging in on you but I would like to know a bit more about the use of soap in turnings.
Can you give me a reference?

Regards
Bob

Thank you kindly
Bob

[Bob Oswin]

Originally posted by Garrett
QUOTE

The Soap Solution - Leif O. Thorvaldson

Having a reawakening to the pleasures of woodturning after a gap of four years, I plunged into it with enthusiasm.

Leif O. Thorvaldson
Eatonville, WA
360-832-4352

UNQUOTE

Cheers, Garrett
Snipped severely.

So I guess it's safe to assume that any long chain bi polar molecule capable of penetrating the pores of a dead plant could be used for this purpose as long as it does not interfere with subsequent procedures?

Or.. could you use any sterated soap compound?
I'm thinking stearated glycols here!

just kidding!

Bob:D

[Gary Hern]

Hi W. C.,

I did a lot of sampling with LDD back about the same time the Leif started using it. This was in my early stages as a turner and I hadn't done much experimenting with different techniques to reach final stages for bowls. The LDD definately has it's place, but my experiences have not mimicked Leifs. Some woods perform beautifully on, such as pines and other sappy woods. On other woods like fruit woods, the soap showed no better effect than the normal roughing/drying technique that has been used so long. I definately had more distortion in my turnings than Leif talks of and I have never seen any of his turnings, so I cannot comment on that. It is believed that the surfactants in dish soap are what fills the pores and cuts down on cracking and distortion. I tried different mixtures of water and soap and didn't see a great difference. I did find that the thicker the dish soap, the better it seemed to work, even after thinning with water. To keep the oui-gooys out of it in warmer weather, rubbing alcohol can be added and it does help with this. The absolute best I have found for helping keeping bowls from cracking and cutting down on deformation is the boiling at 1 hour/ inch of thickness. I do still use the soap, but not in the manner that I once did. If I get interrupted on a piece before I get to finish roughing it, I throw it in the soap till I can bet back to it. Another useful thing is in hollowing dry wood. It does seem to cut better with the lubricating action of the soap, even when dry. I also use it periodically to alleviate non-severe tearout, because I have it sitting next to my lathe and it is easily wiped on and thicker than water. I suggest doing some of your own experimentation rather than relying on what others say. I was once I firm believer in the soap, but after experimenting with other types have basically stopped using it. Uniform roughing with the base being slightly thinner than the rim seems to have the biggest advantage in working with bowls. One thing you will find is that there is no quick fix on working green wood. Some shapes are prone to distortion also, such as a regular bowl. Part of the fun in turning for me is in the experimentation although I'll never go as far as Lyn or Steven Russel. By the way, he has an excellent CD out with all the experiments he has done and it's definately worth the investment.

[W.C. Turner]

Hi Gary,

I had planned to add some alcohol to my LDD also. I've got some that has mint in it and is green. While the mint would undoubtly make it smell better, I'm windering if the green color would turn the wood green also??

About what is the ratio of alcohol to the mixture, do you use?

Also, I know of Lyn, but not Steven Russel. How far did they go?

Thanks, and good to see you here, haven't seen your name recently.

[Gary Hern]

I used to add a pint to about a gallon of dish soap mixture. In the warmer months, I would renew this about once every couple weeks with a pint. I used to mix it up in a 48 qt. cooler that has a hinged lid so I can keep the shavings etc. out of it and I fill it about 2/3 full. This way I could fit up to 5 or 6 small bowls or vessels in it when I used it. I now use a smaller one and have about a gallon of soap in it and roll the bowls in it periodically and seal the lid after doing so.

Steven Russell posts on rec.crafts.woodturning and is a production turner. He is very detail oriented and IMHO does excellent comparisons. I believe his e-mail address is benzer@flash.net I'll have to check. I thought his address was in my folder, but I can't find it. Must be on my laptop. I'll look it up tomorrow and get it to you. I also believe I have the e-mail with the breakdown of what is on the CD there too. If so I'll forward or post it if others are interested and it doesn't break the rules here.

Later,

Gary