OUCH!! Cost for electric

[Donnie Raines]

Set up that is.

Just moved into a new home(new, both to my family, and in age). I had 3 electricians come out for quotes on the installation of a series of 220 outlets and some more 110 outlets(by the way..I dont cliam to know the proper verbage here...so bear with me). All three quotes were near $4,000 bucks!! :eek: :eek: The issue, apparently, is that my breaker box is located in the basement...way on the other end of the house. Currently there is a single 110 outlet in the garage(by the way...my shop will be in the 24X24 garage). The cost was for new breakers and the running of the wires and outlets. Two suggested that I install a new box in the "shop", but the cost was still pushing 3,500 bucks!!

Now, I understand all the "facts" are not available to you....but does this sound out of line??...my pocket book sure syas it does... :confused: :confused:

[Jim Becker]

You really don't want to be making home-runs for your shop all the way back to the other end of the house; the long lines are not ideal and the material and labor costs are higher. A sub-panel in that space is the right way to go, IMHO. Consider doing the work yourself and hiring the electrician to do the final hookup to the main panel and checking your work. Do pay attention to permitting, however. In fact, I'm curious about how much of the quoted prices are relative to that?

BTW, my whole service upgrade not quite two years ago which entailed a new 400 amp service entrance, coring of 2' thick stone walls, new 200a main panel, new cuttoff panel for the shop, 100' trenching and conduit, new 200a panel in the shop and misc work was only $5000! And it was a three-day job.

[Todd Burch]

Several years ago, in my old 2-car garage/shop, I hired an expensive electrical company to come out and do several things:

1) Upgrade the service to my house from 100 amps to 200 amps.
2) Upgrade the service entrance from an under-eave angle-bracket to a proper code weatherhead (drill a hole through the roof., etc.)
3) Run a 80' of 2/0 flexible conduit diagonally across my house through the attic (longest route possible. Just the conduit was over $400)
4) Install a subpanel with 100 amp breaker in the garage. I ran all the circuits to machines.

Total cost was $1800. It took two guys one day from 9am to 6pm to complete the job.

I think where you are running into the cost could be in having them install the 220 outlets. Is your garage already sheetrocked? If so, that might be the majority of your cost. How long did they say it would take? If it's one day - those prices are out of line.

[Chris Padilla]

Wow! Now you know why I want to redo my own electrical in the shop! :D Actually, it is for cost but also, I will enjoy doing it. I HATE paying someone for something I would enjoy doing!! :D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Donnie,
I'm with the others here. First, I'd want a separate panel in the shop. Second, the quotes sound out of line! I've purchased a 200 amp service panel )Square D QO), 50 feet of 2/0 copper wire, 25 feet of 1/0 copper, grounding rods, and appropriate grounding wire, weather head, conduit and all the necessary hardware to place the service into my new shop. I'm into to it for about $406. I have yet to buy the boxes, 10/2, 12/2 copper wire, outlets and breakers. I'll bet I don't exceed $1000 total for materials for the entire shop. Believe me when I say my shop will be "OVERWIRED and OUTLETED". It's a heckaofa lot easier to do it before the walls are finished or insulated!

[John Weber]

Ouch! I really enjoy doing electrical work myself. I've spent a fair bit (maybe $1500 in materials) to upgrade my shop wiring (100 amp sub panel, 80' run in conduit to detached shop, lots of wire boxes, and other stuff). I run 4 220 v circuits and 12 110 v circuits. Unless you just don't want to fool with it or don't feel comfortable, I would do it myself. You can always have it inspected, and the savings is well worth it, plus I think electrical work is rather enjoyable - at least it's not plumbing...

John

[Chris Padilla]

...at least it's not plumbing...

John
Gawd, I HATE plumbing...hate it, hate it, hate it! :D

[John Weber]

Chris,

You got that right brother! I don't mind running copper or hooking up a new sink, however most of my plumbing projects are on the other end - ugh! Electrical, however I almost always like doing. It's even a great project to do with your wife. Whenever I ask Kim to help pull a little wire, she asked for the yellow stuff. The joys of marriage.

See ya - John

[Sparky Paessler]

Set up that is.

Just moved into a new home(new, both to my family, and in age). I had 3 electricians come out for quotes on the installation of a series of 220 outlets and some more 110 outlets(by the way..I dont cliam to know the proper verbage here...so bear with me). All three quotes were near $4,000 bucks!! :eek: :eek: The issue, apparently, is that my breaker box is located in the basement...way on the other end of the house. Currently there is a single 110 outlet in the garage(by the way...my shop will be in the 24X24 garage). The cost was for new breakers and the running of the wires and outlets. Two suggested that I install a new box in the "shop", but the cost was still pushing 3,500 bucks!!

Now, I understand all the "facts" are not available to you....but does this sound out of line??...my pocket book sure syas it does... :confused: :confused:

Donnie

Is your basement finished? If so they will have to fish a wire for each of the 220v outlets up thru the upstairs and into the attic and then over to the garage. I believe that code calls for each 220 to be on its own circuit. If you put a subpanel in the garage then you would only need to fish one larger wire (like a #6) down to the garage. (still a lot of work!). As far as prices those sound high to me but then I do all my own and don't know the going rate for here.

Sparky

[Rob Littleton]

Gawd, I HATE plumbing...hate it, hate it, hate it! :D

At least you can see that stuff..........

If it leaks, it gets wet and you fix it (normally)

If electric has a short, you find out with a splash or a bang.........

:-)

[Donnie Raines]

Thanks for the ideas thus far.

The garage is finished with drywall...unfinished basement below(partial) and and an unfinished attic above. I was told that the install could take most of the day and maybe into the following day of buisness(keep in mind I had 3 diffrent electricans provideing me numbers).

I hate electric! I go out of my way to avoid it...granted I have replaced the ocassional dimmer switch or plug...but thats it. I am not sure what "codes" or permits would be needed to do this work in my area(have not gotten that far yet). But, I must admit..I am thinking hard about selling my 220 machinery and just useing the simply 110 stuff. That(being another option) may be more cost effective for me.

[Jim Becker]

But, I must admit..I am thinking hard about selling my 220 machinery and just useing the simply 110 stuff. That(being another option) may be more cost effective for me.
The cost difference for 240v circuits versus 120v circuits is not all that much (and if anyone indicates differently, they are pulling your ying-yang...or their own :rolleyes: ) and you'd be extremely limited in your choice of machinery, especially when it comes to horsepower and capacities. Pick up a copy of Black and Decker's Guide to Home Wiring. Putting in basic circuits is easy to do correctly. If you're not comfortable with doing the sub-panel yourself, contract that out and consider doing the rest yourself. Maybe you can find another woodworker in your area that will help you in exchange for a nice piece of figured wood from your stock? Maybe you can barter with an electrician that "moonlights" for a piece of furniture? There are a lot of ways to deal with this. If I lived in your area, I'd certainly be willing to help you through this...

[Mark Bachler]

I would also suggest doing it yourself & having an electrician do the final hook-up. I suggest using steel conduit on the outside of the wall covering for the wireways instead of running it through the studs. It's so much easier to change things around at a later date. With a 100 amp box in the shop, breakers, wire, conduit, lots of outlets, 220 drop cords, twist plugs, (9) 8' Flour. lights, & switches, I have around $1600 including the 50’ of 2” PVC & (3) 100amp wires from the service box to the 28 x 40 shop. Borrowed the neighbors backhoe for the trench & the maintenance man from work did the hook-up for a case of beer. I had all the conduit run & the wires pulled & the outlets installed when he got there.

[John Weber]

Donnie,

There is almost no real difference between 110 and 220. 110 has 1 hot leg, 1 neutral, and 1 ground, for 220 you just add a second hot leg and bingo - more or less. There is some other stuff to know: equipment ground, neutral buss, etc... The main advantage of 220 is it cuts a given amp draw in half thus allowing for smaller wire. A 3 hp motor might draw 30 amps with 110 volts, but that is cut to 15 amps for a 220 volt circuit. So smaller gauge wire and breakers can be used, thus saving money. There are also discussions about power, and motor life, but for a hobbyiest I don't think it really matters. In your case I think you "NEED" a sub panel in the shop. After that you can run wire and circuits however you like. Since you already have drywall up, you might want to use conduit. Easy to install and use, plus you can make changes as needed without fooling with the walls. Depending on your comfort level, you might hire part of it out, but with some good advise (ie, your local electrical supply house, and even on-line), you'll get a great job that you can do yourself and meets all you requipements.

As for a permit, it varies with your area, most are based on total cost of project.

John

[James Carmichael]

2 years ago (almost to the day) when I bought my current house, it was terribly under-valued due to having been decorated by a couple of nuts (the original owners) and handled by a lazy realtor, I had no idea I would get hooked on woodworking. Now could kiss them for having the garage wired for 220 and two 20-amp 110 circuits.

Then I think of the solid-green carpet and countertops, and I'm cured :eek:

[Donnie Raines]

I understand that there is not much cost diffrence from an installation standpoint for 220 VS 110. But I already have 2 110 outlets and could branch off of in the attic(which is also a seperate breaker from the house and the other existing outlets) and that cost would be minimal...then i could plug right in and go.

Trust me..I dont want to sell my stuff and buy 110 volt machines(been there and done that). But needing to buy some misclaneous things for the house and lawn tractor...cost are adding up. Throw a few more grand into the fire and it turns into a blaze if you know what I mean. Gosh...I am no closer to the end result then when is started....moveing stinks!! :rolleyes:

[Tyler Howell]

Ladies and Gents you have heard me yammer, rant and rave about "E" safety and I'm sure it gets old.
Electrical wiring is not rocket science. But it is a science. It is not something everyone can do. I have no union brothers to protect. I'm fighting with the Systems union now on a project so that is a non issue.
It requires knowledge, skill and some really fun toyls. The fact that a circuit works doesn't mean it is correct, safe, resistant to blunt force, screws, nails and moisture.

I am the first to support a DIYer and strongly encourage everyone to understand how their homes and its contents work.

When we talk of 240 VAC 40amp motors or 208 three phase tools, we are no longer talking average house wiring .

I’m hesitant to offer any advise over the forum on a subject so critical because it may be confused or edited to suite the user.

Best offer, put a sub panel in the shop. Pull a permit and be painfully honest about your abilities. Hiring a pro may be the best, cheapest hassle free investment you ever made.
Lots of good information here, other web sights, suppliers and books.
The directions given are also based on all componants working properly. The game changes if there is a faulty componant or failure. There is some info that can easily be misunderstood here too, so go slow and learn the right way.
Good Luck ;)

[Donnie Raines]

Holy Cow Tyler!!!

I almost(..almost) had a tear in my eye from the honesty that was oozzzzing from that whole in your face.

Very good advice!! And to be right up front, that is my view on this entire electric gig...it is likley to be cheaper in the end to have the "pros" do it...versus the diyer route.

Thanks!

[Tyler Howell]

Oh lighten up Donnie and let's get Dear Abby in on this too!:D
Ain't nothing like the smell of burnt flesh to help you fight a crusade.:o

[Ken Garlock]

Hi Donnie. I might as well get into giving an opinion, since they are cheap and worth what you pay for them. :)

Yes, I agree that you need a sub panel in your "new shop." I also think you need at least one, if not two, 240V outlets on each wall. The question is how to get there without breaking the bank. So here is what I would do.

I would find every tabloid neighborhood newspaper I could and look in the classified for individual electricians advertising their services. Down this way we have a weekly "fish wrap" that is all ads and is delivered in the mailbox. Look in that type paper for an electrician, get his price and ask to see his license. I would guess that you can cut that bill in half using a guy that needs a little extra to help the family.

Here again, down this way what you want to do is called a remodel, and no permit is required, unless you want to donate $250 to the city :o I had a 100 amp main panel replaced in our previous home with a 200 amp. It was a one day job through a local electrical contractor, and it was $1200. He was the one that told me that a permit was not required in Plano for remodel. The only time they want a permit is when you get into the basic supporting structure.

Electricity is your friend, just don't cross it.

[Wes Bischel]

Donnie,

Food for thought - when I had a new main panel put in (I'll do a lot of wiring, but a man's got to know his limitations), I asked around and found one of the electricians at work that moonlighted. He told me what grunt work needed to be done (drilling holes, building mounting plates, pulling romex etc.) and he came in and did the panel install and hook-up. By doing the sweat equity, I saved a bunch of money and he saved himself the hassle. I also had him review my plans for my garage and come in and inspect my work prior to the township for a few bucks. Ask around, you may find a pro that needs the funds for a new boat!

Good luck, Wes

[Dennis Peacock]

If I lived close to you, I'd come and help you with it for FREE.!!! It's easy to do and I have just over 400 houses and 20 businesses under my belt of electrical wiring. I used to be a residential/commercial electrician operating under my uncle's license and business. Once you understand a few basic principals for electrical wiring, it's easier than mowing you lawn. :rolleyes:

A sub-panel is the way to go as others have stated. Just get a 24 circuit panel without a main breaker, then add in your own main breaker to control the power feed from your main home breaker box.

[Chris Padilla]

My neighbor behind me has a son who is still an apprentice electrician and he is going to help me out for a few bucks as well. I want to hire him, basically, as a consultant and pre-inspector to get me by whatever nuances the City of San Jose adds to the NEC. I may also get him to help me with pulling a permit if necessary. Sometimes they want to see your plans and a few calculations before issuing a permit, I guess.

[Tyler Howell]

Honest, I'm not yelling! when I have a point and no hat to hide it, I type my message in Word so at least the spelling and grammer are close. When I cut and paste they always come out so big!!!!! Tried other fonts, sizes ???? Whad up wid dat?
Any way the message needs to be heard IMHO but in a gentlemanly voice.
TTFN;)

[Rob Russell]

Donnie,

I went through this thread and have a couple of questions about your installation.

You say that you have "garage is finished with drywall...unfinished basement below(partial) and and an unfinished attic above". Do I interpret that correctly to read that you have at least partial access to one of your garage walls from underneath?

You say "I hate electric! I go out of my way to avoid it..." - does that mean that you wouldn't do the electrical yourself even if it meant that you could run a 240v subpanel and do all the wiring in your garage for $1000? That's to code, with no shortcuts. Probably overengineered a little.

Rob

[Christopher Pine]

I am by far no expert on this either... I had a whole new service installed a few years ago for $1500.... so yes it does sound high to me.
Chris

[Donnie Raines]

Donnie,

I went through this thread and have a couple of questions about your installation.

You say that you have "garage is finished with drywall...unfinished basement below(partial) and and an unfinished attic above". Do I interpret that correctly to read that you have at least partial access to one of your garage walls from underneath?

You say "I hate electric! I go out of my way to avoid it..." - does that mean that you wouldn't do the electrical yourself even if it meant that you could run a 240v subpanel and do all the wiring in your garage for $1000? That's to code, with no shortcuts. Probably overengineered a little.

Rob
Rob,

I do NOT have access from the basement below the garage, nor would it make any sense to go through the attic and down(which is accessable to the garage).

Trust me...if I felt comfortable with my "electrical abilities" I would be on it in a hart beat. The problem is I am in the insurance biz..and I see crazy stuff all the time. So...with that being said....I do not feel comfortable doing it.

[John Weber]

Donnie,

You only need one line (4 wires) to feed your sub panel, what ever path is the easiest to do would work. My guess is it might be easy to pull wire up from the basement to the attic, run out over the garage and drop down wherever you want. It doesn't sound like you want to do it yourself, so I would to it piece meal. Have someone install the subpanel and a circuit in conduit right next to the panel so you have power. Later you can develop you circuits based on your needs and have someone install those. My guess is you will overly tax the few circuits with a 110v shop. 110v motors have higher amp draw thus a single circuit can only support a single machine. Electrical is not something you want to do half way. You can spread out the cost of a new electrical installation by doing it in phases. The idea of selling 220v machines for 110v - you'll take a lost, plus I do not believe your 3 circuits will support a shop (1 lights, 1 machine, 1 DC) there is nothing left.

John

[David Hayes]

Donnie,
Hang in there, you'll probably be able to find an electrician that can get the subpanel into your new shop area. From there, you could expand in the future as money allowed to get the rest of the outlets installed.

I enjoyed talking with you last week and could see the gleam in your eye when you were talking about the future gloat! Maybe breaking the job down will make it more economically feasible?

Good luck,
Dave

[Terre Hooks]

I built an addition to my home in 2002. I wired a 24x24 bedroom, 24x16 bath, stairs, and addtional 500 sf of living room, a laundry room, and my new shop (24x40 garage) for less than $1500 in materials, including all receptacles, light fixtures, boxes, wire, a new 125A sub-panel, (2) 1000' spools of 12-2, a 250' roll of 12-2, a 250' of 10-2, and 75' of SER cable from the Main panel to the new sub-panel. All wire was copper, I don't use aluminum for anything.

If all your stuff is sheetrocked and all new work will have to be fished, yeah, they all have alot of labor in the price.

[Dan Mages]

hmmm... couldn't tell ya. I paid $1500 to have my kitchen completely rewired with 8 gfci 110 two 220 plugs, new electrical in the bathroom, a new 200 amp panmel in the garage, and setup for burried service.

Dan

[Rob Russell]

Donnie,

I'm in insurance too and have heard a lot of stories. I feel that electrical work is like using a table saw - it can do serious damage to you if you're not careful. Frankly, I also feel that more of us get hurt using machinery than doing electrical or causing problems by doing improper electrical work.

A little discomfort with electricity is good. I like to think of it as a healthy respect for what it can do if I'm not careful. Having said that, one can work in total safety if you're smart and careful - just like using a table saw.

Your best option is a subpanel in the garage. Running a cable up through the attic isn't unreasonable. I'd probably run down the basement as far as I could and go up then.

Question - you say you don't have basement under the garage. Do you have basement or crawlspace that goes as far as the start of the garage? If so, you can still go up inside the wall to the garage without running through the attic. Another option is conduit run outside along the foundation of your house, depending on what you have for obstructions of an underground feed to the garage.

I wouldn't give up on doing it yourself yet. That's me, though.

Rob

[Donnie Raines]

The basement runs just shy of the garage line...and it is brick and fire wall up from there.

[Jim Becker]

The basement runs just shy of the garage line...and it is brick and fire wall up from there.
'Wouldn't stop "Tim the Toolman"!!! :eek: :D

[Chris Padilla]

Might stop "Donnie the Cincinnatiman"!!! :eek: :D

[Rob Russell]

The basement runs just shy of the garage line...and it is brick and fire wall up from there.

Is it possible to drill a hole at an angle from the basement up through the brick to the inside of the firewall to run your subpanel feed? All that takes is a masonry bit. Caulking with Firestop will preserve the fire rating of the wall.

[Donnie Raines]

Ok guys...I need to level with on the move I have made.

I had one of my customers over last night who was in the buisness prior to retireing. He confirmed what the electricans had provided to me. So, I made the decision to sell my 220 machinery. It kills me to do it! But, it simply is not cost effective for me to wire the shop up to accomadate my 220 tools. To be honest, I bought these tools for a very good price so I will not be loosing any money. The good side to all of this is I get to go buy some new toys with the proceeds of my "old" tools.

Thanks again for your insight, tips and encouragement to try this on my own.

[Jim Becker]

Umm...it's still going to cost you money to get the additional 120v cicuits you need into that space. Most of your real tools are going to require 20a supply and like someone pointed out, the DC needs to be on a separate, dedicated circuit. If you increase you lighting, you may need more power, depending on what is already on that circuit. Hopefully, this will have been taken into consideration...

Selling your great tools is going to be a real "ouch"!!! :(

[Donnie Raines]

You are right! There is one outlet in the garage right now and one(on a diffrent circuit) in the attic above which runs the garage door opener. I am going to have some exra outlets ran throughout the "shop" and that will work for now.

I no I am coming off like a big dummy here....but the cost was just to great(being that I am buying a new riding mower and I am getting ready to put a new roof on the house(..by the way..I stole the house..thats why i bought it..) this is just not in the cards. I can have the extra 100 volt liens ran for a few hundred bucks.

And yes...it will be a big ouch!!..particulary the Unisaw!!.. :(

[Jim Becker]

Ya know...a 240v circuit costs nearly the same as a 120v circuit...it's mostly labor. Why not pull one now with a couple of 120v 20amp cicuits so you don't have to sell the gear. That's what I'd do as an interim measure. Better to use a 120v DC than give up real tools!

[Chris Padilla]

Donnie, I can almost assure you that you will regret going this way. At the worst, run 1 240 V line and use extension cord wherever you need. In time, you can build up the budget to run more lines. Try not to think so short-sighted...look to the future a bit and manage what you can without dumping current equipment. Be really darn sure of the route you choose...and think ahead as much as possible.

[John Weber]

Donnie,

I agree with Jim and Chris, unless your thinking of getting out of woodworking, downgrading your tools to save a few short term dollars seems like a bad move. Even if you get top dollar for your Uni, you'll only be able to go to a DeWalt hybrid or contractor saw and then you'll need a dedicated 20 amp circuit anyway. If nothing else, since you are going to pull a couple new circuits any pull at least a 220 line or a feed line for a 100 amp sub panel. I can't believe to cost of a 220 v circuit is more the $10 or so more then a 110 v circuit. If the electrician is quoting you more, he is ripping you off and I would look for a new electrician. Labor is exactly the same, materials a hair more or 12/3 w ground vs. 12/2 w ground, a breaker, box and outlet. I think I paid around $50 for each of my 3 Siemens 20 slot 100 amp sub panels (basement, attic, and shop – in our 100+ year old house it makes pulling new circuits a lot easier., and I still have some good old knob and tube) Not to keep harping, but the shop is a lifetime item. You'll likely have several roofs and mowers, and since you only have 1-1/2 acres, you should be able to save plenty on a mower. I fed my shop sub-panel with a home made heavy duty 10 gauge extension cord from a dryer outlet for a few months. Until I got the main feed run in conduit from the basement to the detached shop/garage.

John

[John Weber]

Donnie,

I promise to leave you alone after this post, but I thought a picture might be worth a thousand words. My shop is a third bay of our garage that was added on. That gave me an old exterior stucco wall that now is an interior wall. It’s also the closest to the house. On this wall I ran all the circuits in conduit for ease, and also have all my main 220 circuits on this wall. The other walls are wired with the wiring in the walls. I run my lathe, shaper & power feeder, table saw, dust collector, edge sander, and planer on 220v. The largest motors I run on 110v are the air compressor, drum sander, and band saw. The dust collector and electric base board head each have a dedicated 220v line. The other machines are split up among the remaining two 220 v circuit in a fashion where I will only use one machine on a 220 circuit at a time. The point of the picture is to show you a sub panel set up with very close distribution. In the picture there are five 220v outlets, and a host of 110v. All very close to the panel and very easy to wire. I do use a 220v extension cord of sorts for my shaper, but all the other 220v equipment plugs directly into an outlet on the power wall (one plus of a small shop). So with a solid foundation you can service your shop in the short term and develop more convenience circuits as time and money allow.

John


http://www.weberwoodworking.com/picss04/powerwall.jpg

[Carole Valentine]

I just had my shop upgraded. Included 75' trench from house to shop, drop in new wires including phone, changes to main panel in house, new subpanel in shop, four 230 outlets, five new 110 outlets, 6 new eight foot high-output flourescents on 3 circuits with switches. Cost $1487. However, my shop walls are not sheetrocked (yet) which makes a difference.

[Rob Russell]

It's a shame that you have to go the route of selling your tools.

Carole's installation is a slightly different flavor of my outside conduit suggestion. With hers, you'd run PVC out the side of your house, down through a slip-fitting into conduit that runs in an 18" deep trench to your garage. Up from the trench, through another slip fitting and turn through the wall of the garage to a subpanel.

That is all work you can do. PVC pipe just glues up and the conductors you pull are individual.

Another option is "UF" - Underground Feeder cable. It needs to be 24" down but only needs conduit as a protective sleeve where it's coming up out of the ground.

Rob

[Rich Konopka]

Donnie:

I just got quoted $400 bucks for a 100 amp sub panel, 1 20amp 240 outlet and 1 20 amp 120. This is the initial wiring for my shop and will be in the DC/utility closet. Eventually, it will service my whole shop. My problem is that it has impossible to get someone out to the house to do the work. I called al least 5 places before I finally got someone to return my call. Now I have to way to July 23. Good Grief !!

[Rob Russell]

Donnie:

I just got quoted $400 bucks for a 100 amp sub panel, 1 20amp 240 outlet and 1 20 amp 120. This is the initial wiring for my shop and will be in the DC/utility closet.

Rich,

Be aware that there is a Working Space requirement for the subpanel. You must have 30" side to side and 3' deep in front of the panelboard. You can't have pipes or ducts running across the ceiling in that Working Space (unless you're gonna have something like 14' ceilings). You can't use that space for storage. Reference the NEC, 110.26, if you want to see the specific details.

Rob

[Rich Konopka]

Rich,

Be aware that there is a Working Space requirement for the subpanel. You must have 30" side to side and 3' deep in front of the panelboard. You can't have pipes or ducts running across the ceiling in that Working Space (unless you're gonna have something like 14' ceilings). You can't use that space for storage. Reference the NEC, 110.26, if you want to see the specific details.

Rob
Bob,
I'm not sure if I understand. Can the sub panel be adjacent to the main panel?
If so, are you saying I need 30" between them? I have Newington Electric doing the job. He did not mention anything like that to me.

Thanks

[Rob Russell]

Can the sub panel be adjacent to the main panel?
If so, are you saying I need 30" between them?

You can put the subpanel right next to the main panel - that's fine. It means the "Working Space" becomes the width of the electric equipment (your panels) x 3' deep x 6 1/2' high.

I'm also going to double check on something else - the restriction of pipes etc. in the "Dedicated Equipment Space" vs the "Working Space".

Rob

[Rob Russell]

I need to clarify the difference between "Dedicated Equipment Space" and the "Working Space".

"Dedicated Equipment Space" is the width and depth of the electrical equipment and runs floor to ceiling. There can be no pipes, ducts or "equipment foreign to the electrical installation" in that space. This is a fairly shallow space.

Working Space" is the (larger of 30" or equipment width) x (3' deep) x (higher of 6 1/2' or top of electrical equipment high) space in front of the electrical equipment. This area can't be used for storage, etc. You could run ducting, as long as it's above the height requirement. A key point is the 3' depth requirement.

Dick, you mentioned a utility closet with DC and I envisioned "small" closet with all this stuff crammed into it. If that's not your situation, great.

Rob

[Rich Konopka]

I need to clarify the difference between "Dedicated Equipment Space" and the "Working Space".

"Dedicated Equipment Space" is the width and depth of the electrical equipment and runs floor to ceiling. There can be no pipes, ducts or "equipment foreign to the electrical installation" in that space. This is a fairly shallow space.

Working Space" is the (larger of 30" or equipment width) x (3' deep) x (higher of 6 1/2' or top of electrical equipment high) space in front of the electrical equipment. This area can't be used for storage, etc. You could run ducting, as long as it's above the height requirement. A key point is the 3' depth requirement.

Dick, you mentioned a utility closet with DC and I envisioned "small" closet with all this stuff crammed into it. If that's not your situation, great.

Rob

It will be 6 by 6 feet and 8 feet to the ceiling. I hope that is big enough. I think I will be fine because the DC and air compressor will be on the opposite wall of the panel.

[Jim Becker]

I need to clarify the difference between "Dedicated Equipment Space" and the "Working Space"...~snip~
I suspect that this is one of the things that so many folks, at least homeowners, end up violating over time, if not initially. My own DC closet has the cyclone and compressor in it as well as the 200a panel for my shop/outbuilding. I know I need to move the compressor, but just haven't been able to decide how best to accomodate it...

[Rob Russell]

It will be 6 by 6 feet and 8 feet to the ceiling. I hope that is big enough. I think I will be fine because the DC and air compressor will be on the opposite wall of the panel.

3' of depth gives you about for the electrical equipment and leaves you a shy 3' on the other side for the DC/compressor and that should be fine. It'd really be a nuisance to have the inspector come in and say "not enough room", but it does appear as if you're OK.

[Wade McIntyre]

:D You may really be sorry if you switch to 110V exclusively. After buying blade stabilizers, having the blade trued, buying a new premium blade, much cursing, e-mails to the blade manufacturer's tech rep, etc., I finally switched my radial arm saw to 220V. Instant cure of all problems. It was in shop a bit over 130 feet from home entrance panel, and previous owner had installed 10 gauge wire just for lights, so that's all I had. Voltage drop was the problem.

[Steve Stube]

You need to do what you feel comfortable with - that may be having the whole job contracted.

I will offer this one suggestion for consideration (I think often it gets overlooked), yes even by some electricians. If you choose the sub panel route (which would get my vote hands down) remember that it can be trenched in external to the house and use of direct burial cable means you only have to provide conduit protection at the ends where the wire comes to the surface and enters the house/garage thru LB pull 90's. Sometimes this is the easier route compared to going/routing through the house etc. and who/what ww can't dig a trench and lay wire in it and pull a few feet in conduit at each end.

[Steve Stube]

OOps! embarrassed I read the first few posts of the thread (not realizing there were more pages) and posted my reply. I see now that the suggestion has already been made (external burial routing). My apology.