ends of tenon saw blades

[Jim Paulson]

Hi folks,

Bought some spring steel and brass to make a couple tenon saws, but this novice needs some help with the shape of the handle side of the blade/plate. I prefer the old style handles and hope to use 2 bolts/nuts as fasteners.

What advice can you give me or where should I look for resources? I am going to make (2) 14" long tenon saws with about 3 1/2" deep cut. I've learned a lot from recently trying to convert a refurbished saw blade to fit an older style handle with three holes. I've had mixed results. For one, despite my measurements, I was little surprised how far my blade slot in the handle extended and now I'm doing damage control.

Unfortunately, I don't have a bunch of saws to use for prototypes either.

Thanks,
Jim

[Robert Rozaieski]

Jim,

Adam Cherubini makes saws like that and the saw plate seems to stay straight at the heel. (Hopefully he doesn't mind my linking to his pictures)

http://www.adamcherubini.com/Tools_files/sm_tenon%20handle%20detail.jpg

Mike Wenzloff's Kenyon saws seem to be straight at the heel as well.
http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/graphics/wenzloff_tenon_saw.jpg

[Jim Paulson]

Thanks for your interest Robert,

Here are some pictures of the reburbished saw that I'm working on. This saw has a brass back that stops about an inch from the end. Somehow I recall at least one of Alan saws having an angled end too, but that was for a dovetail saw I believe.

I wanted to do some chip carving and that part turned out great. I was cutting the slot for the blade here that gave me problems. I ended up having to cut into the horn on the top and doing a repair. Once it is stained and sealed it will be fine, I'm just bummed that the slot went further than I had hoped.

I can see from your pictures that making it straight across (90 degrees) at the end creates less difficulties. I'll keep that in mind when I cut the blades.

Jim

[Scott MacLEOD2]

Try backsaw.net lots of info, pictures, handle templates etc.
Scott

[Alan DuBoff]

Here are some pictures of the reburbished saw that I'm working on.
Wow, that handle looks great, IMO!

I just went to the metal recyclers (SIMS) and got a couple pieces of brass. I want to experiment with a couple ideas.

[Jim Paulson]

Hi Scott,

Have you tried milling out a brass back as it was shown on the www.backsaw.net (http://www.backsaw.net) site? I would be interested in that approach if I could find a cutter setup. I opted for 0.025" thick spring steel so it might be harder for me to find a cutter. Thanks for pointing out that site.

Alan,
Thanks for your supportive comment. Once I finish this saw I need to get back to building some windsor chairs. Can't wait to see the next saw you make.

Jim

[Alan DuBoff]

Hi Scott,

Have you tried milling out a brass back as it was shown on the www.backsaw.net (http://www.backsaw.net) site? I would be interested in that approach if I could find a cutter setup. I opted for 0.025" thick spring steel so it might be harder for me to find a cutter. Thanks for pointing out that site.
Yes, they are not plentiful, but you can find them. I found 3 screw cutting saws on ebay for my horizontal mill, but it took some searching to find them. I was trying to get larger diameter, like 4", but couldn't find them, ended up with 2 3/4" screw slotting blades that were NOS, probably 20-30 years old from the color of the paper.

McMaster-Carr has some, and they do have some 1" arbor that I could get, they just get more $$$s for them and/or do NOT have a keyway.

Just keep in mind that you can only slot the diameter less the arbor, and on the saw arbors that will take multiple sizes, they are often about 1/2" or 3/4" for the largest outside ring, could be 1" also like mine. However, my mill will not work without a keyway, while the smaller saw arbor can pinch/lock the blade in, so you can use one without a keyway, as I recall.

I recommend Online Industrial, prices are good, cutters are ok, come from Czech I believe. They are as good as the ones from McMaster-Carr, AFAICT.

If you have a 1/2" arbor, I just found these at Online Industrial (http://onlineindustrialsupply.com/6-315.html), 2 1/2" in diam, 1/2" hole, .025" thick. Here's a page on McMaster-Carr to check also (http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.aspx?ReqTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr=2474&RelatedCtlgPgs=2473,2474&term=Slitting%20Saws&ScreenWidth=1600&McMMainWidth=1039&sesnextrep=914035263775963).

Thanks for your supportive comment. Once I finish this saw I need to get back to building some windsor chairs. Can't wait to see the next saw you make.
These next 2 will be the blades I slotted last week, a 12" x 3" small tenon saw, with (coincidentally) a .025" plate, and a 13" x 2" small joiners saw with .020" plate. Both of these will be crosscut.

I have one other small one I may build also, with the smaller 1/8" x 1/4" brass back. It has a .020" slot in it.

I will most likely be using .018" as I just ordered some steel from McMaster-Carr in 2" width that is .018", and 3" width that is .020". The prior will be for dovetail/joiners saws and the later will be for larger joiners saws and/or carcass saws. Most makers call a saw with a thin plate a carcass, and a bit thicker would be a sash, but it's all the same really, it's only a plate with teeth.

I can tell you there is quite a difference between .018" and .020" when you feel them in your hand. .020" is quite a bit more sturdy.

I saw Chris Schwarz mention that Andrew Lunn is using .015" on his dovetail saws, I'm not sure I want to go that thin myself. Although a dovetail saw is small, that is a thin plate and over time I'm not sure that will endure as well. That is why I used .020" for my bronze joiners saw, I have the .018" plate I was going to use. It's a decent plate, I just have concerns with a 13" length plate over time.

Hope some of that helps.

[Jim Paulson]

Hi Alan,

Awesome comments and extremely helpful now for what I'm trying to do.

You wrote: If you have a 1/2" arbor, I just found these at Online Industrial (http://onlineindustrialsupply.com/6-315.html), 2 1/2" in diam, 1/2" hole, .025" thick. Here's a page on McMaster-Carr to check also (http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.aspx?ReqTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr=2474&RelatedCtlgPgs=2473,2474&term=Slitting%20Saws&ScreenWidth=1600&McMMainWidth=1039&sesnextrep=914035263775963).

I checked those out sites as you suggested and that seems to be the path forward. Hate to ask, but where do I look for a suitable 1/2" arbor to hold the slotting/slitting saw blade?

Thanks,
Jim

[Alan DuBoff]

I checked those out sites as you suggested and that seems to be the path forward. Hate to ask, but where do I look for a suitable 1/2" arbor to hold the slotting/slitting saw blade?
The type that is most common is an arbor that holds the slitting blade in a vertical mill, although you could use one in a horizontal mill if one had a collet to hold it, but more common with the horizontal (and where they shine) is in having a horizontal arbor.

The universal arbors have a type of spring system with layered rings, so that you can use various hole sized saws.

I think the one I have I got at either McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.aspx?ReqTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr=2473&term=Metal%20Slotting%20Saw%20Arbors&ScreenWidth=1600&McMMainWidth=1039&sesnextrep=914035263775963) (bottom of page) or Enco (http://www.use-enco.com/HTM/2009/118.htm#370-9070). (note the Enco is on sale, but is backordered).

A couple notes on McMaster-Carr and Enco. The McMaster-Carr is a similar one, for over 2x the price. Enco will give free shipping for orders above $99 nowadays, they used to do it with $50, but that has gone up.

Both ship quick, and provide good service, IMO, and I order from both, lean towards Enco when I can get free shipping.

Penn Tool Co. (http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=1502) has them a bit cheaper also.

I have not ordered from Victor Machinery, but a friend does and has bought slitting saws from them. They have a good price, comparable to Enco (http://www.victornet.com/cgi-bin/victor/productlist.html?subdepartments=Arbors%2C+for+Saw% 3A661).

I would consider somewhere like Victor, where you can get both at a reasonable price.

When looking for these saws, you will find them listed with 3 names, Jeweler's Slitting Saws, Plain Slitting Saws, and Screw Slotting Saws. Most often the screw slotting saws are 2 3/4", I'm not sure why, but there are other sizes just that 2 3/4" is the most popular. Must be due to the machines they go on.

The Jeweler's Slitting Saws are my preferred as they have more teeth. You need to be aware of the cutting which is determined by RPM and the amount of teeth. If you use a drill press to slot, like Ray does, having multiple speeds will help you get the right SFM (http://books.google.com/books?id=6zTREw5lrjMC&pg=PA341&lpg=PA341&dq=sfm+metalwork&source=web&ots=muYi2DTQA6&sig=wpGt5lV8s6lSwKT1O8FnWl26Ico&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result).