Is it the process or the product that keeps you doing it?

[jeff begin]

I've been all over SMC asking a lot a newbie questions; thanks for everyones' patience--you've all been a great help. I wanted to ask a different kind of question.

Before I bought any woodworking tools that your every day DIYer doesn't already have, I bought a lot of books. The one that struck me the most was Peter Korn's "Woodworking Basics." Much more than other books, he emphasizes knowing how to use and maintain hand tools. There are a great many pages devoted to just how to properly sharpen a chisel or plane iron. The reader can very much tell that the activity of woodworking is just as important to him as the finished product. I could see him being the Mr. Miyagi of woodworking instructors.

As he explained how to handcut dovetails, I remembered just how many dovetail jigs I've seen. While I'm sure the jigs work well, I wondered if they cheapened the experience at all? How much more pride would I have in creating a chest of drawers with handcut dovetails vs. spending 10 minutes on it with a router?

I was just wondering if most of the woodworkers here are in it for the process or the product? Probably a bit of both, I'd imagine, but which is more important to you? Given an infinite amount of time, would your prefer to joint a board by hand and only use a bit and brace?

[Joe Chritz]

A friend of mine who is an avid hiker has a sign in his office, "if you have the time, everywhere is walking distance." Point is while it is possible we don't always have the time.

You could further break down your question to power tools since for some the use of handtools is the passion.

For most it is a bit of both, getting a better product for the same money or less and having the pride to have done it.

As with most things in life it isn't a destination but a journey.

Joe

[Don Bullock]

Joe summed up my reaction to the question far more eloquently than I could.

I enjoy the whole process including the sanding. As soon as I can afford some quality hand tools and have time to devote to learning them I'll get started with them too. For now, even though I'm retired, I have far too many "end products" to produce. It's the beauty and pride in the end product that inspires me to work with wood, but the whole journey is enjoyable for me.

[Bob Childress]

This is an interesting question and one I raised on another forum a year or two back. I am an unabashed product man. While I enjoy the process to a great degree, for me it is about turning out a nice product that I can take some pride in because I built it and I know it's not a cheapo from the local furniture barn.

When I asked the question, it happened about 50% of the responses went one way and 50% the other. Let's see what transpires at the Creek. :)

[Larry Fox]

A little of both for me. I really enjoy trying and learning new things so I try and do only projects that I find interesting or challenging in some way. If I get a project that is not either I try and do some aspect of it in a different way. The product is what makes it so I can continue to do it. I am not a professional but the family does like to see some return on the time investment in the form of a usable object.

Interesting thread!

[Cody Colston]

I suspect that I'm like a lot of woodworkers in that I started out accumulating and using mostly power tools, but find myself using hand tool more as my skills develop. But, that's because hand tools are, in many cases, the better way to render a quality product. I have zero interest in using hand tools just because of the romanticism of recreating a bygone era.

As for the issue of time, a woodworker that I have a lot of respect and admiration for once wrote that, "you can create fine furniture with only a pocket knife if you have enough time and determination." I don't have that kind of time nor that amount of determination so I use power tools where appropriate and hand tools when they are the better choice.

I still derive a tremendous amount of enjoyment from the process and a lot of satisfaction from a well done product. So, I guess that my response is...both.

[Sonny Edmonds]

Oh definitely the processes.
Let me throw it right back at you this way, since you appear to be book smart and enjoy the "neander" side of woodworking:

Would you prefer to use a computer and the Internet?
Or a good old pen and paper and the US Mail?
Appears you don't mind some modern conveniences.

I was raised a DIY. We did a lot of stuff, Dad and I. We weren't a rich Family, but my childhood held a wealth of learning and doing for ourselves.
I used to be the catcher for the table saw even at the early age of six years old. Since I would sneak into Dad's shop and fool around while he was at work, he set me up my own little bench and hand tools in a corner of the garage.
There are no books that can teach like Father to Son can. :)
And my Sisters (4) are all more mechanically inclined than their husbands are. They can shoot and fish, too. :)

[Steve Griffin]

None of the above.

It's the money that keeps me doing it:p

Definitely not the process. What makes me happiest is producing a product efficiently using the best methods and tools I have available. I could care less if it is a medieval hand tool or big hunk of cast iron with a motor attached which gets the job done.

-Steve

[Gary Herrmann]

For me it's a bit of both, depending on the project and how much time I have. Power tools, I like the end result. Turning and hand tools, I like both the process and the result. It can also be fun to just sketch out an idea.

When I banged up my arm last year and couldn't do much, sometimes I'd just go downstairs and sit in the shop and read a magazine. My wife has her chair, reading lamp and little cherry table (made downstairs) to nest in and unwind. I unwind downstairs.

She often catches me "wandering around the shop" when I was sent downstairs to bring up laundry or something else...

[Brian Effinger]

She often catches me "wandering around the shop" when I was sent downstairs to bring up laundry or something else...
Me too :D

As for the question - I guess at this point I enjoy the end product more, because I am still learning the processes, and they can sometimes be frustrating. I can see the day, when I enjoy both equally, after I have gained some more confidence in the process.

Of course if this were posted in the spinning forum, then I'd have to say process just a little more than end product ;)

[Thomas Bank]

I'd have to say that it is mainly the process for me - getting out in the shop and not having to worry about anything else than what I'm working on and just taking in the smells and sounds and all. Very peaceful and good therapy. I'd say that it is also cheaper than a therapist, medication to aleviate the symptoms of a stressful life, and such but there are certainly people that would argue that point as it applies to me! :)

But the product also has mean, don't get me wrong. Whether it is something I keep and make use of in my daily life and take pleasure in the fact that it was crafted with my own hands or it is something that is given to someone else and the pleasure in knowing the pleasure it gives them.

[David Keller NC]

"I was just wondering if most of the woodworkers here are in it for the process or the product?"

In my case, it's the product - produced with hand tools. I use hand tools not because I like standing knee-deep in shavings so much, but I do focus on the tools appropriate to the period of furniture that I'm working on. In the case of most of my output, that's 18th century furniture, and there's a significant difference in the appearance of the final product when produced by machine vs. hand methods.

But I'm not an iconoclast. I've plenty of power tools, and it'd be darn close to idiotic to hand-cut thousands of dovetails for a kitchen cabinet project.

But this brings up a good point - because wood is not metal, and tends to move, however slightly, once a part of it has been cut away, I've found that it's quite difficult to make a piece with machine-only methods to high standards without resorting to more stable man-made materials like plywood or mdf. Hand tool usage lets you get away from having to get 0.002" accuracy out of your table saw cuts - it's no longer necessary, because in hand-tool produced furniture, the joints are cut for a specific board and a specific end of that board to fit another particular board - the parts are not interchageable; they are fit to each other.

Moreover, I've found with a bit of practice that I'm far, far faster in dovetailing one drawer by hand with a chisel and a saw than I am setting up my Incra jig, making test cuts, adjusting the fit, etc... This is also true of a lot of other machine operations - they are absolutely superb at making repeated operations consistently and efficiently, but pretty slow at setting up.

I've found this to be true on a macro scale as well - I can produce a small piece, such as a wall cabinet, far faster with hand tools than I can with power tools, assuming I'm only making one. If I were making a dozen, there'd be no contest - the machines would win by a mile.

[Ian Gillis]

Hi,

My path in woodworking has lead me from a beginner sweating it out in the garage with few handtools, to working in the custom furniture business and the small production business.

Now I've got a modest basement shop with stationary power tools that I don't use much. I've made a choice to work with handtools as much as I can. I think you need to have regard for the process whatever your approach is.

If you're working with wood and cutting tools, you need to respect the properties of the wood. Thickness planers and shapers are blind to grain direction, but the guys feeding them better not be. And jointers and tablesaws need to be "fettled" to keep them working properly. Sharpening relies on someone giving precise instructions to the guy grinding the carbide bits and blades if you're going to get the best results. Try working in a shop where nobody pays attention to these things and you'll be working in a shop that's going to fail. Or where people get hurt.

The fact you've got to make a buck in the commercial shop to continue playing, doesn't mean there's no respect for the process. The results are key to success, but you can't produce good results without someone paying attention to the process. It might not look like it to a casual observer, but it's there.

I'm back enjoying being the guy who controls all the processes in my own little world. I don't have a clock on the wall in my shop. I can meander and fiddle around -- but I'm aware it's a luxury. But that's what hobbies are -- getting immersed in the process without any need to turn a profit. So, whichever path you choose, you'd better be aware of the processes if you want to have success - either personal or financial (or both).

[stepping off of soapbox]

Ian

[Lee Schierer]

I have to say both. I enjoy the challenge of figuring out the design and making the project. I also enjoy using them or delivering them to their owners, whether that is my house or someone else's.

For me at the moment woodworking is theraputic. I have to think a lot at work and mistakes can be costly both in monetary and reputation terms. Getting in the shop and making something is relaxing and uses a different set of brain waves.

While I use a lot of power tools, you just can't beat a good sharp chisel for cleaning up a dado or otehr joint face and a good sharp hand plane can take the edge off a cabinet corner in just a few strokes a lot more uniformly than sand paper will. Once I learded to sharpen the hand tools so the worked instead of making me work we got along a lot better.

[Clifford Mescher]

I've been all over SMC asking a lot a newbie questions; thanks for everyones' patience--you've all been a great help. I wanted to ask a different kind of question.

Before I bought any woodworking tools that your every day DIYer doesn't already have, I bought a lot of books. The one that struck me the most was Peter Korn's "Woodworking Basics." Much more than other books, he emphasizes knowing how to use and maintain hand tools. There are a great many pages devoted to just how to properly sharpen a chisel or plane iron. The reader can very much tell that the activity of woodworking is just as important to him as the finished product. I could see him being the Mr. Miyagi of woodworking instructors.

As he explained how to handcut dovetails, I remembered just how many dovetail jigs I've seen. While I'm sure the jigs work well, I wondered if they cheapened the experience at all? How much more pride would I have in creating a chest of drawers with handcut dovetails vs. spending 10 minutes on it with a router?

I was just wondering if most of the woodworkers here are in it for the process or the product? Probably a bit of both, I'd imagine, but which is more important to you? Given an infinite amount of time, would your prefer to joint a board by hand and only use a bit and brace?
In my youth, it was the product. Today it is the process. Clifford.

[Karl Brogger]

I was just wondering if most of the woodworkers here are in it for the process or the product? Probably a bit of both, I'd imagine, but which is more important to you? Given an infinite amount of time, would your prefer to joint a board by hand and only use a bit and brace?


I'm in it for neither reason, I'm in it for the money. I guess that could be viewed as the product.

[glenn bradley]

Given an infinite amount of time, would your prefer to joint a board by hand and only use a bit and brace?

No, I enjoy the process probably even more than the product (although it is always rewarding to see someone enjoy a piece) but if I enjoyed painting, I wouldn't stretch my own canvas. I am slow enough without taking 20 minutes to do what I can in 2 :D.

[Chris Padilla]

For a hobbyist, I think it is the process mostly but certainly the end product.

I'm thinking if I was a pro, it would be get it out the door, into the customer's hands in exchange for some mulah. This is why I could never do this professionally.

I find woodworking therapuetic. I enjoy thinking the project through, solving problems, making mistakes (don't necessarily 'enjoy' this part but it teaches and I learn so it is good), and working with my hands to an end product that I hope my family and/or friends will enjoy for a long, long time.

[Bill Keehn]

What keeps me doing it? What could stop me? I'd have to be helpless. To a creative person, creating is synonymous with living. A day without some creative outlet is mere existence -- a wasted day. Not being able to make things, fix things or express myself. I think its the definition of helpless.

But if you are asking what I like best about woodworking, it's the wood. It never ceases to amaze me. It's the knowledge that I can start with an idea and some ugly looking boards and get something that is better than I imagined. It's an artistic medium in which left-brained and right-brained thinkers can both express themselves.

I'm trying to show my children that I can do anything I set my mind to and by extension so can they. It's the admiration in their eyes when they ask, "You MADE that??" I'm trying to teach them to dream big. Imagine my satisfaction when I hear my 6 & 8 year old daughters saying things like "when I grow up I'm going to make things -- like daddy."

[Paul Atkins]

Like Clifford, for me it has changed too. For my customers I imagine it is the product they are interested in, but my own projects seem to evolve all the time and lots of them never seem to get finished. I'm always thinking about how I could have done something better or more efficiently.

[Peter Gregory]

When I first started thinking about doing some woodworking as a hobby, I lived near my wife's cousin. He was a woodworker and had completed some nice pieces. He recommended that I get no machines, do everything by hand. His shop was a 14'X12' basement room, with a little tiny window. He was buying rough boards and hand joining and plaining them by hand. He was completing a piece a year, best case, as a hobby. I'm not ready to be that pure.

I love the machines that save me work and do a great job. A J/P combo machine and power sanders remove much of the tedium of my woodworking. I like my jigs, routers and measuring tools. I love having perfect 90 degree angles on everything that shows. I like having dovetails done by a jig. I have a Leigh FMT and did 80 perfect M&T's one afternoon (even an expert can't do that).

I was reading Gladwell's new book "Outliers" (http://www.amazon.com/Outliers-Story-Success-Malcolm-Gladwell/dp/0316017922/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232736229&sr=8-1) recently. He has a chapter claiming that it requires 10,000 hours of work to become an expert. Personally, I don't want to spend 10,000 hours learning to do hand joinery perfectly. But, there are a couple of other areas that I cheerfully spend 10,000 hours perfecting. I do like the 10,000 hour number, that is about 5 years of full-time work? About the length of a European style woodworking apprenticeship.

Great question and interesting answers.

[Rob Diz]

I work all day at a desk - my work product is on paper and the expression of creativity has its limits.

I really enjoy the freedom of ww and the ways in which I get to plan out projects in much different ways that most of the other things in my life. So in a sense, it is the process. I just love starting with a blank sheet of paper to draw up some plans - almost always on one sheet that's on a clipboard at eye leve - getting the boards, and start working. Of course, it often takes me months to complete a project. Pure therapy. I tell her that she is lucky that my midlife crisis involves making sawdust and buying used tools.

But it is also the finished product. this year I completed a complete renovation on my kitchen. Sure it was sheet goods work, but man oh man did I save a ton of money. Wife loves the kitchen and her fancy appliances, and I frankly take some pride in the finished product.

the only problem with a focus on the product, is that as a hobbyist, if the product list grows - which it will - there will be more demands from SWMBO to - make a built in for the bed room, make a hall bookcase with seat under the window, make some bookshelves for the son's room, make a fancy stand for the TV, not to mention finishing the walnut kitchen island. If I was totally focused on the product, I would drive myself crazy - and that's not even including the house warming presents (Shaker side tables) I have on my list for a few folks.

Good thing my wife is so understanding.

[Mike Wilkins]

Both the process and the making of fine objects is what drives me. I grew up with a dad that was a DIY'er, mostly out of economic necessity. I tagged along to watch and learn. While he was not a woodworker, this is what planted the seed. The process, owning and using fine tools, both human and powered, is fun. But the satisfaction of producing a good-looking object and the compliments afterwards are equally satisfying.

[Victor Stearns]

Greetings to the Creek,
This is another interesting question. Here's my 2 cents.

The process: When I'm in the shop making sawdust, chips, measuring, thinking, designing, redesigning, and making something, I am in another place. A place where I control what happens, what it looks like, ect. I think I could go on about the smell and feel of the wood. There is truly something special about going from a rough sawn piece of wood to a work of art.

The product: Friends come over for a get-together. They notice a new piece and the conversation begins. Or maybe we, the loml and I are just sitting in a room, and I look over at one of the tables, chairs, or other projects. Then the memory's start to come back. What a challenge it was to get the joint just right. What a challenge it was to get the finish to lay-down just so.

So I think it depends on where you are.

Victor

[Jim Becker]

I enjoy process a lot (hence, my growing use of hand tools in all of my projects) but also respect the limited time I have to get work done. So it has to be a balance. Sometimes, I will rip though something using the most efficient methods I can muster. Other times, I'll stop and sniff the wood chips....

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'd say neither really. I like the learning best. There is always something new that I can do in the woodshop. It could be a shot at a period Seymour piece, or pouring new babbit for an old bandsaw. Haven't tried either of those, but I might...

It's good to have a creative place where anything is fair game.

For a while, when I first started, it was all about the product. That lasted several years, and got to the point that it was one of the two jobs that had to go, the one that paid the bills, or the woodworking that had a chance to pay the bills. Now, I charge for nothing, and I try something new every chance I get. As a bunch of you have said, it makes good therepy.

[Leigh Betsch]

No physo-babble here, pure process, just cause I like being in the shop. Like my great uncle told me along time ago, gets in your blood. When everything is going right the final product is perfect, absolutely perfect, but still the reason to build it is because I like the process. If you only wanted the end product it would be cheaper to buy your furniture.

[tim rowledge]

I build stuff because I build stuff. I can't help myself; I've always done it. I built many of my best toys when I was a kid, whether from scraps of wood and nails or from lego. I build motorcycles, model airplanes, software, virtual worlds, furniture, houses, anything. I don't build spaceships, but only because I never did get to be rich enough. Yet.

[Leigh Betsch]

This sums it all up.
Build or be dead.......

[Wilbur Pan]

It had better be the process.

If you saw the stuff I've made, you can tell that there's no way I'm getting no satisfaction from the product. ;)

[Dewey Torres]

Both for me as well. Others have wrote my other thoughts.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
I'm in it for the "rush".
A router screaming @ 30k RPM is sweet music to my ears.
:D
It's right up there with the *Che Che* an Italian switchblade makes and the bottom of a barrel roar a .58 caliber muzzle loader produces.

Then there's the smell of a 35mm Forster bit chewing through a sappy piece of pine.
Right up there with Thanksgiving Turkey roasting in the oven.

Lest I forget, there's also the accompanying costumes. I love getting all decked out in my Big Smith bibs and parading around the driveway!
One day, I hope to graduate to the flannel shirt rank of the elite!

Toss in the lexicon of terms - proud, trunnion, quill, shooting board, Forstner, Ogee, lock miter and so many others - somewhat a secret language for members of the clan.

:D:D

(PS - can ya tell I'm having fun? & isn't that what it's all about?)

[Randy Breeding]

Another vote for both. As for me...I cant seperate the process from the product. The process is the adventure, kinda like "whats around tha next curve". The product is the payoff.( something very kewl found around that next curve). My family are not DIYers, an this is something I dont understand. If porch sitting were an olympic sport, they would be gold medalists. Creativity escapes them. Dont get me wrong, porch time with the family is quite enjoyable, but I get the itch to get off my butt an do somethin. Options are cool, so many different ways to get the job done, an the independance to decide which way.

[Bill White]

I personally enjoy bothe the process and the product. It has taken far too long to learn (mostly trial and error) to create well designed and built "stuff". I must say that most folks, when looking at a completed project, see only the finish and not the process. This has led me to try to be as concerned with the finishing components as much as the construction phases.
Bill

[Neal Clayton]

the process is enjoyable when it's challenging. repeating the same process after it's been whittled down to a process easily becomes tedium to me.

[Chip Lindley]

A bit of BOTH, of course! I love machinery. I love restoring older, quality machinery. I love using machinery. Hand tools have their place. I have a little 060 Stanley low angle block plane I use frequently to take off just a *hair* here and there. Handwork is for those who have all the time in the world. It took Noah 100 YEARS to build the ARK by HAND! I love the process AND the finished product! I don't have all the time in the WORLD @ 61yo.

[Gene Howe]

None of the above.

It's the money that keeps me doing it:p

Definitely not the process. What makes me happiest is producing a product efficiently using the best methods and tools I have available. I could care less if it is a medieval hand tool or big hunk of cast iron with a motor attached which gets the job done.

-Steve

Right on, Steve!:D

[Mark Bolton]

I always find these conversations inspiring and a way to think a bit about how the different posts relate to your own approach.

For me I think you need to break the question down with regards to hobbyists or earning your living (I hate the term professional with regards to creative careers). While there will undoubtedly be similarities for each, the criteria that makes up how and why something is conceived and constructed are likely far different.

Personally I can identify with at least something in every post in this thread however doing this type of work for a living for much of my adult life puts much of it in that context. I can very much identify with the comments that to not create would be to idle yet I can also relate to the drive being at least somewhat tied to the money. It unfortunately has to be balanced. That balance can result in making things you are not absolutely excited to make and perhaps in a way that you may not completely agree with. In our experience the hope for many is that the jobs you grind out afford you at least the opportunity to get to make the juicy work that comes in between.

In my personal background I come from a very creative starting point and hence very much enjoy the process however as another post stated, this can often lead to getting over involved and over invested in the process winding up with a lot of unfinished projects scattered around. Though I would enjoy nothing more than to experiment and work out processes, this would be deadly to our business and an endeavor more tailored to art school.

I feel lucky that I have never fallen into the situation of making what you love your business turns it into a job. Perhaps its because its all I have ever known and from a young age I think I knew I would be a tough fit in the working world. That said, there are a lot of forced compromises in your work that go into earning a living as opposed to having a hobby. There are times when you would love nothing more than to do something one way, but practicality and "the bottom line", dictate a different way to actually be best or perhaps more profitable. Being emotionally attached to one way over another can also lead to deadly circumstances.

Its a very complex, yet interesting subject and gets further complicated with the hundreds of different layers within the business/hobby. At one end of the spectrum some have clients wanting work that allow for any means the maker feels necessary but this is not the widespread norm. On the other end one can be completely content earning a living making production work.

Many times we have been involved with local groups and these subjects are always very interesting when they come up.

Mark

[Chip Lindley]

Wayy back in the '80s I met a man at machinery auctions who was in the custom cabinet business wayy out in the mid-Missouri boondocks. I was a career railroad conductor with a love for wood and machinery. I had several door panels sanded on his wide belt before I was able to sand my own.

On my last trip to have him sand panels he was making zillions of built-ins for a new Kansas City hospital. Laminate-covered particle board! A new sliding panel saw and a dowelling machine had been added since my last trip. His huge glue-up clamp table sat empty, but a new roller press to squeeze the glued-up sheets of p-board/laminate was in full production. He had underbid many larger companies to get a huge job to make lotsa bucks, but generically with no asthetics. Instead of rail/stile work on his huge Rockwell shaper, he was dowelling joints and edgebanding p/board. I felt he had sold out, but he had found a little gold mine for himself and his family.

A cabinet shop business man must do what he can to keep the wolf away from the door. Economic climate and a fickle public make life hard for the business man unless he finds the right niche'. Big contracts for *new subdivision kitchens* with quality and esthetics at a bare minimum, make a payday, but leave much to be desired in satisfaction. New CNC routers cut nested parts and pay for themselves, but off-white kitchens with faux raised panels are hardly something to get excited about. BUT a nice bottom line IS.

I am blessed with having a *fixed*income from US Railroad Retirement AND a shop full of machinery which cost pennies on the dollar. I can pick jobs that interest me, for local patrons who can in turn, brag on my nice work and advertise ME. I can turn down jobs that I find too mundane or boring.

I salute business men who make a profit, making fine cabinetry which anyone would be proud of. I respect others make a living doing what they MUST do to survive. I am just Happy to be ME for having the BEST of BOTH WORLDS!










8

He was in business to increase his