Cant get a square cut on my TS

[Ben Rafael]

Please help me from balding. I'm pulling my hair out on this one.
My cuts are way out of square, at least a 1/16th over 6".
This is what I've done to try and figure it out:
The blade is parallel to the miter slot.
The blade is 90 to the table.
I have a miter gauge and an Incra5000 miter sled. Both fences are 90 to the blade. I cannot get a square cut with either. They both produce cuts with the same error.
I have a starett and incra square that I have used to set up the saw. They both check out at 90.
I am hoping I am missing something obvious.
Thanks for any help!

[glenn bradley]

I use this method Ben. Never fails.
http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/five_cut_method_swf.htm

[Ben Rafael]

I use that method too. It is what is showing me I have a problem.
I cant figure out where the problem is though.

[Brad Patch]

Please help me from balding. I'm pulling my hair out on this one.
My cuts are way out of square, at least a 1/16th over 6".
This is what I've done to try and figure it out:
The blade is parallel to the miter slot.
The blade is 90 to the table.
I have a miter gauge and an Incra5000 miter sled. Both fences are 90 to the blade. I cannot get a square cut with either. They both produce cuts with the same error.
I have a starett and incra square that I have used to set up the saw. They both check out at 90.
I am hoping I am missing something obvious.
Thanks for any help!

Sounds like you have the saw set up properly. Does you stock have a straight jointed edge? When did this problem develop? Try another blade.

[Chris Parks]

Please help me from balding. I'm pulling my hair out on this one.
My cuts are way out of square, at least a 1/16th over 6".
This is what I've done to try and figure it out:
The blade is parallel to the miter slot.
The blade is 90 to the table.
I have a miter gauge and an Incra5000 miter sled. Both fences are 90 to the blade. I cannot get a square cut with either. They both produce cuts with the same error.
I have a starett and incra square that I have used to set up the saw. They both check out at 90.
I am hoping I am missing something obvious.
Thanks for any help!

Sounds like the actual table is not square square to the blade. The mitre track must be parrallel otherwise the gauge that is running in it will move relative to the blade but still be square. Think about it, if the track is not parallel the distance from the blade to the gauge will vary as it is moved along the table.

[Ben Rafael]

The mitre track is parallel to the blade.
I will try another blade.

[Chip Lindley]

TS alignment is well covered here. Use the tried 'n' true methods.

Another question might be: *IS your wood creeping along the face of the miter gauge as you cut it?* The MG is slippery, and has a relatively small area to reference the stock. A miter SLED would be much better if you use your TS for very much crosscutting at any angle!

Otherwise, sandpaper backing on the miter jig face helps in holding stock securely to avoid movement. The blade does exert a push *away* from itself in the cutting action. Hold or clamp the stock securely when crosscutting.

[Joe Scharle]

Make sure the arbor collar is clean too, and re-check the 'new' blade.

[chris dub]

I thought I had the same issue until I realized my test piece wasn't really parallel. After I cut the piece I wasn't paying attention and flipped the side a couple of times. to check for square. Then I re-ripped the piece to get it dead parallel and tested it again. It was square on both sides. Not my proudest moment.

[M. A. Espinoza]

TS alignment is well covered here. Use the tried 'n' true methods.

Another question might be: *IS your wood creeping along the face of the miter gauge as you cut it?* The MG is slippery, and has a relatively small area to reference the stock. A miter SLED would be much better if you use your TS for very much crosscutting at any angle!

Otherwise, sandpaper backing on the miter jig face helps in holding stock securely to avoid movement. The blade does exert a push *away* from itself in the cutting action. Hold or clamp the stock securely when crosscutting.

+1 on the creep. Use some stickback sandpaper as advised and see what results you get.

If it still is not square check your blade for wobble and the blade washer to make sure its flat.

Might be a good idea to double check for play in your sled to miter slot.

Thats all I got, good luck.

[Ben Rafael]

I tried the sandpaper on the fence, I changed the blade, I cleaned up the arbor collar. Still the same amount of error.
My solution makes no sense:
I increased the angle between the fence and the blade by a small amount, it is now just a bit greater than 90*, but all my cuts are now square. This apparently compensates for whatever was causing the error. I dont know why it works, but it does.
Thanks for everybody's help and advice.

[Eric Gustafson]

I tried the sandpaper on the fence, I changed the blade, I cleaned up the arbor collar. Still the same amount of error.
My solution makes no sense:
I increased the angle between the fence and the blade by a small amount, it is now just a bit greater than 90*, but all my cuts are now square. This apparently compensates for whatever was causing the error. I dont know why it works, but it does.
Thanks for everybody's help and advice.

What saw are you using? Not that it should matter. Is there any play in the arbor? Can you wiggle the blade perpendicular to the miter slot?

I have the Incra 5000 and that thing is dead on. The way you calibrate it is after you cut the sled in the saw, you align the miter fence to that same cut line with your good square. Since that cut line is the same cut line you get when you cut anything, there is no way you will not cut the same unless something else is moving. Either the blade (arbor defective), the INCRA miter slot guide (should be adjusted for no slop), or the miter fence, but if you have that fence ancored with the angle stock they supply, that won't move.

[Chris Padilla]

Ben,

Not to continue beating this dead horse but you need to (or, rather, should) figure out what the real problem is coming from.

Can you tell us your methods for ensuring parallelism between your miter slot(s), blade, and fence?

[Ben Rafael]

Ben,

Not to continue beating this dead horse but you need to (or, rather, should) figure out what the real problem is coming from.

Can you tell us your methods for ensuring parallelism between your miter slot(s), blade, and fence?

I agree with you. I need to find the basic problem.
To square things up I used my starrett combo square. I thought it might have a problem, so then I use my Incra square and it indicated that my squaring with the starrett was correct.
Since the problem is consistent with either my sled or miter gauge and with 2 different blades, I am assuming(maybe incorrectly) the problem is somewhere within the arbor. I checked for runout and it is almost nil.
My only thought is that when the saw is running that a problem in the arbor is causing this, a problem that is not apparent when the saw if powered off.

[Dick Brown]

Had a saw one time that was given to me because it did about the same thing. Tipped it over so I could get a good look at things and found the plate that keeps the bearings tight in the housing was loose and let the arbor shift when under a load. Might take a look at that or if the arbor itself is working around in the bearings.
Dick

[Nissim Avrahami]

Hi Ben

There is one thing that I see very strange in your set-up...

You said "Both fences are 90 to the blade"....I think that the fence of miter gauge same as a sled fence, must be at 90° to the MITER SLOT and NOT to the blade.

When you are cross-cutting with a miter gauge or sled, you are looking to move the workpiece at 90° (very 90°) to the miter slot...if the blade is not set parallel to the miter slot, it will not effect the squareness of your cut, just the quality of your cut (like burn marks). To visualize it better just imagine that you have a router bit instead of the blade...if the fence of the miter gauge will not be exactly at 90° to the Miter Slot...well, you will get miter cut...

I think that your miter gauge is not set to 0° relative to the miter gauge bar (or miter slot), so first you can make this test but...if you are sure that the blade is parallel to the miter slot, do not adjust the blade but the miter gauge fence till you get the result as on the pics.


After you get a square cut, just re-adjust the angle on the miter gauge to read zero.

Regards
niki

[Ben Rafael]

Nissim,
That makes sense, I'll check the angle of the miter gauge to the miter slot.
I dont see how I can check angle of the sled's fence to the miter slot however; the sled covers the slot when in place, but I'll try to figure something out.

[Nissim Avrahami]

Hi Ben

I never check the angle between the Sled Fence and the miter slot....it's already "build in" when I make the sled and attach the fence and, I never make any 2, 3, or 5 cut test, every sled is "punkt"

Go to ridgidforum.com, plumbing forum/woodworking forum/power tool forum, then to woodworking, then to tips and techniques

Do a search for "niki" and/or "TS Sled - Part I" and/or "Crosscut sled - different way"

Have a good luck
niki

[Chris Padilla]

Ben,

I have the same Incra M5K sled.

Usually, when tuning up a table saw, one always checks a couple of things:

(1) Arbor runout
(2) Miter slot to fence parallelism
(3) Miter slot to blade parallelism
(4) Blade Tilt at 0 degrees (or 90 degrees depending upon your reference) and 45 degrees.

Once those are all good, the table saw is more or less set up and ready to go. Problems with cuts after this are usually blade or jig issues. It is more or less a divide and conquer kind of issue to find out who is the culprit.

With the Incra sled, it has it's own calibration device builit in to the scale. To check if the miter bar on the sled is parallel to the blade/fence, you should be able to do it the same way you checked the table saw's parallelism. Since the right panel of this sled is cut off with the blade to ensure a zero clearance fit (for tear out), you may need to make/buy and new right panel. Or, you could just slice a piece off the current right panel and use it to make a new zero clearance fit.

Recently, I had need of putting a 12" blade on my 10" TS. To get comfortable clearance of that large blade within the throat, I had to shim it out just a bit with a washer on the arbor. Well, this messed up the zero clearance of my Incra M5k sled (by the thickness of the washer) and so I sliced a piece off the right panel (which I rarely use) and drilled the 7 holes, counter sunk, and then made a new zero clearance with the 12" blade. It worked great!

[Myk Rian]

Nissim,
That makes sense, I'll check the angle of the miter gauge to the miter slot.
I dont see how I can check angle of the sled's fence to the miter slot however; the sled covers the slot when in place, but I'll try to figure something out.
Do you have a plastic drafting triangle? I find these are very accurate. You can get them at craft stores. (Joanns, Michaels, etc.)
Put the triangle against your miter fence and the blade. Check for miter fence to blade square.
You can also run the miter in the track. That will show if the miter gauge is properly adjusted. The triangle should be the same distance from the blade as you move the miter gauge.