Sharpening question

[Larry Edgerton]

I have read several places that you just use a gouge or whatever right off of the grinder with a 120 wheel and it will do better than if you hone it after.

I have always maintained my chisels and planes with a perfect edge in my flat work, and have had people tell me that I get my chisels too sharp, that they don't need to be that sharp, and my personal favorite, that they dull faster. All of which are BS created by guys too lazy or stupid to sharpen their own stuff to that level.

Now I am going to learn turning, and I would like to hear a reasonable explanation for this, and a scientific reason that duller steel works better on a lathe than sharp. It seems to be coming from reputable sources, but I still can not see it. Not saying it isn't so, and I will try it both ways anyway, but I would like to hear from you with experiance. It seems, labor not considered, that you want to shear, so sharper would do a cleaner job.

Just as a background I have been making a living at woodwork all of my adult life, and I am fussy. I do understand wood fairly well.

I'm probably wrong, but I want to know why.

References would be fine, I am always looking for new books to buy.

Thanks, Larry

[Bob Noles]

You can spend as much time as you like and get the turning tools as sharp as you want, but I think the idea is to spend more time on the lathe than on the grinder/stones/strop ;) I have found that they come come off the grinder sharp enough to do the job very well. The only exception might be in the case of Mr. Skew :D

As far as a book goes, the leading authority is Keith Rowley's book and DVD, Woodturning "A foundation Course"

[Neal Addy]

I think the reason some people take that position is that turning tools take more of a beating than regular chisels and such. The logic is that the tool will start to dull within minutes (or even seconds) of touching the wood so why go to the trouble of fine honing?

There may be some truth to that, I don't pretend to know for sure. The only thing I know is that I'd prefer to have the tools be as sharp as they can be. Cutting with dull tools just makes the job harder and more frustrating.

[Larry Edgerton]

As far as a book goes, the leading authority is Keith Rowley's book and DVD, Woodturning "A foundation Course"

I just had a copy of that book sent to my uncle and another is coming to our local library, so I will get a chance to read it.

[Wally Dickerman]

In woodturning, cutting tools should be as sharp as you can get them. That is especially true with spindle turning tools. Spindle gouges, and especially the skew should be honed. They can be honed several times before going back to the grinding wheel. With many turners, the bowl gouge is an exception. Some hone and some don't. You should realize that when a bowl is turning at say, 1200 RPM, you are making more shavings in a minute than you'll make in 20 minutes using a hand plane on a board. A lot of turners, including many of the pros feel that honing a bowl gouge is a waste of turning time. On some woods it sometimes feels that the rough cutting edge of an unhoned gouge cuts better than a honed edge.

Wally

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Larry sharper does cut better, however the problem with turning tools is the speed and feet of wood being cut in a very short time.
To put this different, you use a plane and go back and fort, let's say 2 feet at the time, how long can you do this before you need to resharpen, 1000 times ??, that would make it 2000 feet of travel cutting through the wood.
A 12" bowl is lets say for ease has 3 feet circumference OK, at a fairly slow 700 RPM the gouge has cut 2100 feet in that one minute, so are you going to sharpen your tool every minute, or are you going to keep turning longer with a tool that isn't as sharp, and give it a fresh sharpening before the last cut.
It really is a trade off, between turning and sharpening time, and unless you are willing to resharpen very often, it is not doing any good as the tool will be duller than the ideal sharp, but using a sharp tool with a less acute angle that has a stronger edge will do an almost as good job, and you don't have to sharpen as often and can turn more/longer, all IMO

[Jim Koepke]

I find if they are sharp, they seem to work better at what is being done.

Some people like to whack their chisels as if they were swinging the hammer of Thor.

For me, a heavy blow is only needed when chopping a deep mortise. A sharp tool slices through the wood. A dull tool requires more effort.

Same on the lathe, to keep a tool sharp only takes a few strokes on a stone as long as one keeps it maintained. If you allow them to get dull, them maybe more work will be needed to bring out the edge.

The results are what matters. My surfaces appear smoother with sharp tools. More cutting, less catching. YMMV

jim

[Wilbur Pan]

My sharpening routine for gouges is to use a Tormek, including going to the leather stropping wheel. I agree that you go from freshly sharpened to something less than complete sharpness in a fairly short period of time because of the amount of cutting that gets done during turning.

However, my experience is that the added time spent honing the gouge is paid back many times over by the gouge staying at that less than completely sharp state for a longer period of time.

BTW, I like using hand tools, and try to keep them as sharp as I can as well.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Larry, I am one of those guys who goes straight from the grinder to the lathe. I also believe all your turning tools should be as sharp as possible but I also don't believe in taking any more time than needed to get the task accomplished. I do not have a Tormek, but some of the turners here do and they swear by it. I use a 120 and 150 grit wheel on my grinder and just kiss the gouge to the stone when sharpening. It gives me an edge that lasts long enough to shape the outside of a bowl - then a quick trip back to the grinder and that edge will form the inside of the bowl. If I had the Tormek and spent the time to get a super sharp edge - would it be able to do any more work before I had to sharpen it again? Chances are - I would still make a trip to the grinder in about the same amount of time.

All that being said - I wouldn't mind having the Tormek (and a separate gouge) just for finishing cuts!

[robert hainstock]

I was taught to hone as sharp as posible. And I still like to do that, but I seldom do with the bowl gauge. If you look at the ground edge right off the grinder with sufcient mafnifcation, it looks very rough and saw blade like. After honing, it will be much smoother to the point of being able to shave with it. Do you still shave your arm hair with your honed chisels and plane blades? Steve and I have had this discuussion frequently and I have to admit he makes a lot more shavings in a year than I. I do like the edge he gets with that 150 grit wheel though. I on the other hand hone with my 3600 RPM 6in buffer dressed with white diamond to removes the wire edge. :)
Bob

[David Walser]

Larry,

The most recent issue of AAW's magazine, American Woodturner, had an article on this topic. Alan Lacer and Dr. Jerry Wright looked at different methods of sharpening a scrapper. They concluded that honing produced a sharper, longer-lasting, edge. Does their research apply to other types of turning tools? I would think so. They promised to investigate the question.

[Jeff Nicol]

I go from grinder to the lathe, and as Leo stated as others there is a lot of inches of wood passing by the tool at a pretty high rate of speed. A hand plane is a great tool and is completly different than a bowl gouge. Most of the time spent at the lathe is roughing out a piece and getting to the shape you want. Then most times it is set on the shelf and left to dry for a while and then brought back to finish. With a mortising chisel or hand plane most of the time you are at the finishing stage and are making controled light cuts without speed and friction like the lathe. It is like apples and oranges to me, time is money and putting a lot of time in honing a gouge just to get it dull in a few minutes seems like a waste of time. The only time I ever use a hone of any sort is if I am almost done and I feel the tool may be a little dull but not to bad I will use a diamond card to bring it back for that litle bit, and mostly it is with the skew. When I turn minis I use the diamond hone all the time as the tools are tiny and they would disappear fast if I went to the grinder all the time.

So hone if you think it makes it better for you but a spindle gouge is not a hand plane.

Turning is fun, but the finishing is fussy!

Have fun turning,
Jeff

[Larry Edgerton]

Ok, I think I have the gist of it. Correct me if I am wrong.

During the rough in stage it does not make enough difference to make it feasable, because as you say you are cutting a lot of feet in a short time, and finish quality is of little or no importance at this point.

At the finish stage, being as there seems to be a large point of pride in not doing much sanding, then the sharper tools would be an advantage, not just for a better product but a lot less sanding time?

I hate sanding so this appeals to me. I have sanded half of my life away it seems at times. So.... Its funny, a scraper is frowned apon here, and a scraper finish is a source of pride in my flatwork.

It would seem that a guy should have two distinct set of tools, one for rough, and one for finish that gets a little better care?

I like buying new tools.

One reason I was wondering is well, I don't have any work and have too much time on my hands, so I wonder things to death.:)

I made some missing metal parts for my lathe, and bought some medium junk chisels to screw up the first time, and then my electrician disappeared with my VFD! I am all set to seriously mess up some wood and he disappears for three days now! I am seriously getting antsy! Still haven't found him. Kind of wishing I had bought new, but I am sure I will like the old beast when I get it running.

Is there anything wrong with tubing tool rests? My brother and I build off-road race chassis [CORR/WSORR] out of CrMo tubing and we always have some around and we have a tubing bender, MIG, TIG, plasma cutter, mill, metal lathe and all that kind of stuff, so I am geeked about inventing new stuff. I have already drawn up what I need to make to mount my Safety Speed Cut panel router to the lathe for turned fluted columns, and make it height adjustable on each end with hand cranks. I can't wait to start welding!

Hell I'm hooked, and all I have done with my lathe so far is turn a round walnut log with a morticing chisel. Thats all I had when I got it running for a bit on a phase converter that quit on me.

Hollow form is what has always intrigued me, so as soon as I am not trying to kill myself, that is where I am going. I am reading all about boring rigs, and looking for ways to improve them. When I get ready to make my first one I'll ask a lot of questions.

I am known for unique ideas in my field, but every time I think of something that would be different in turning, I find it in a old magazine or on here, already done. Man you guys are tough! It seems this is a vortex for creative minds. A conspiracy maybe? :)

Thanks a bunch, I have been lurking here for a while and reading all the posts and all the different ways you all attack the same problem. I have learned years and years of experiance here on this site and from the books and magazines I have read. Thank you one and all.

Larry

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I'll add this thought to my earlier reply.
I can get a very good surface from my grinder sharpened tools, but always have to do some sanding after that, so the question now is, if you do use the finely honed tool/gouge do you still need to sand or not at all ??

If you do still have to sand, what do you gain by going through the extra work to sharpen and hone your tool/gouge ??

Just to show the surface I can get from my tools/gouge here, I made a couple of pictures to show the surface of a small turned dish, The surface is right off my tools and has not been sanded yet.

I had to add some coffee ground to the pith opening , that's why I didn't sand it yet and could make the pictures :)

[Wilbur Pan]

If you do still have to sand, what do you gain by going through the extra work to sharpen and hone your tool/gouge ??

The "extra work", at least for me, translates into a whopping 2-3 minutes on the Tormek to hone the gouge on the stone and leather honing wheels. So we're not talking about investing huge amounts of time for this step.

On the other hand, the time spent honing before a finishing cut does save me much more than 3 minutes of extra sanding time, and allows me to start at a higher grit of sandpaper. Even if there was no time savings in sanding, given the choice between the two, I'd rather sit in front of the Tormek than sand a bowl.

So the way that I look at it, I still have to sand after honing my gouge, but I don't have to sand as much, which does make a difference.

None of this is to deny the incredible finish you can get straight off your gouge, Leo. Maybe one day I'll get there with a rougher grind on my gouge. In the meantime, I'm pretty happy.

P.S. A tangential question: I thought that including the pith was a sure way to have your bowl crack. Is there something you are doing to prevent this? Is it the coffee grounds? ;)

[Jim Kountz]

I go right from the grinder to the work with everything except the dreaded skew.

[Chris Haas]

i have a tormek and a wolverine grinder. i use the tormek for everything but my turning tools, i too have the sharpest chisels on the job (that everyone asks me to borrow) and i believe they need to be honed to a razors edge, however, with gouges, i think its more of a quantity than quality. sure i could spend 5 min a gouge, but then i wont want to sharpen it evey 10 min. the wolverine is the key to quick repetative sharpening, except for scrapers and skews, then i will go for the tormek.

[Paul Atkins]

Hand plane blades are not high speed steel either. I turn for a living and believe sharper is better. I have a fake leather strop next to the lathe and go to it all the time. It takes me 20 seconds to re-hone a tool -saving lots of time sanding. Seems like the rough edge would break down faster than a smooth one- (no tests done, just brain power here.) My 2cts.

[Dean Thomas]

You can spend as much time as you like and get the turning tools as sharp as you want, but I think the idea is to spend more time on the lathe than on the grinder/stones/strop ;) I have found that they come come off the grinder sharp enough to do the job very well. The only exception might be in the case of Mr. Skew :D
I absolutely concur with Bob. It is strictly a return on investment issue, with the commodity being time.

I would add that one main difference between hand tools and tools for a lathe has to do with the number of cutting strokes that one gets between sharpenings and honings. Hand tools get a lot of time mileage between sharpening treatments. Lots of individual strokes. My gouge hits the wood more times in two minutes of cutting than any of my hand chisels get in hours of work! Same for plane irons. Do I want to spend the extra time to make flat, mirror finishes on edges that are going to get beaten nigh unto death in the next 15 minutes?

And to a large extent, isn't that what sandpaper is for? Heck do your cuts, grind your weapon of choice to get a good wheel edge and make your final, finishing cut. If your chops are good, and the wood cooperates, you should be able to start any sanding at 180 grit or higher.

When is good enough really good enough? If we can start further through the grits fresh off the wheel, how much further through the grits can we start if we spend what for some of us is monumental time honing, whetting, 6 stones, pumice, and leather stropping later? I remember spending 30 minutes on a couple of chisels and a plane iron for a special hand project. If I did that with my normal arsenal of lathe tools 3 times a session, I would only get to turn for 15-20 minutes in two hours of shop time. Not my idea of fun, for sure.

Not a dis, a flame, or any other sort of snooty stuff, just an honest expression of why I do NOT do more than a 120 grit wheel and a stroke or two with a good hone. It's ENOUGH for me. "GOOD enough" (even), for me, and I really do not like that phrase. :) Usually "good enough" is fighting words. :rolleyes:

[Tom Wilson66]

Is there anything wrong with tubing tool rests?

The tool rest gets a lot of force on it from the chisel, and has to resist vibration and deflection from these forces. I think a tubular rest might be too flexible to resist this, perhaps not so much as a cantilever, but in deformation of the cross section. The tube would have to have such thick walls that it would be almost solid anyway.

[Rick Prosser]

Wow - what a great question and discussion for a newbie like me.

Learned a lot.
Thanks

[Leo Van Der Loo]

P.S. A tangential question: I thought that including the pith was a sure way to have your bowl crack. Is there something you are doing to prevent this? Is it the coffee grounds? ;)

It has all the splits and checks it is going to get Wibur, it is already dry and yes the coffee ground will help keeping it together also, with the help of the CA in the coffee and the checks :)

[David Walser]

Larry,

As you may have guessed, one of the easiest ways to start a fight among a bunch of turners is to ask whether honing is worth while. You summarized the no-need-to-hone argument very well. A tool fresh from the grinder is good enough to get the job done and/or while roughing out a bowl you don't need that sharp an edge anyway.

What has not been presented fully is the honing-is-worthwhile argument. We all agree that, all things being equal, sharper is better. A honed edge is sharper (assuming that it was honed properly) and should leave a better surface. But "better surface" is NOT honing's strongest argument. No, it's time savings. The theory is that a honed edge stays "acceptably sharp" longer than a non-honed edge. I read an article that attempted to demonstrate this scientifically. (I can't recall where I saw the article. Sorry for the lack of a link.) The author graphed how much wood the tool could remove over time with a given force. The straight-from-grinder tool's graph showed that it became sharper after a few seconds of turning (it became sharper as the wire edge left by the grinder wore off) and then dulled quickly as time past. The honed edge started out sharper and remained so for a long time before falling below the sharpness of the tool when it came straight from the grinder. Even after becoming as "dull" as a fresh from the grinder tool, the honed tool dulled more slowly than the straight-from-the-grinder tool. Why? Under the microscope, it appears that the honed edge has more support, allowing it to stay sharp longer. In sum, the honed edge tool was more efficient at removing wood -- even after accounting for the time spent on honing.

That's the theory. Any truth to the theory? Maybe. Sure, the science backs the theory up, but the problem is turning skill plays an important part in the equation. A surgically sharp tool will leave a horrible finish if it's not applied correctly. On the other hand, in the right hands, a tool fresh from the 60 grit wheel will leave a very nice surface. My own experience is that my tools stay sharp much longer if I've given them the "full Tormek" treatment. But, I just may have become a better turner...

HTH

[Larry Edgerton]

Hand plane blades are not high speed steel either. I turn for a living and believe sharper is better. I have a fake leather strop next to the lathe and go to it all the time. It takes me 20 seconds to re-hone a tool -saving lots of time sanding. Seems like the rough edge would break down faster than a smooth one- (no tests done, just brain power here.) My 2cts.

One of the things I rigged up was a leather disk velcroed to the hand wheel on my Brodhead Garrett. It has a big flat heavy aluminum hand wheel that is spinning at the appropriate speed, so putting it to good use seemed to be logical. I can still turn the hand wheel, the finger indents are on the inside and all I will have to do is step around the end of the lathe to give it a quick honing pass. May not work but I was bored.

Found my electrician, he is up in Au Train in the UP ice fishing, with my VFD in his truck. Grrr.... Steve, send him home!

Anyway..... I have a Makita flat wheel grinder and have rigged up a grinder jig that I think will work, but being as I don't really know what I am doing I have not finalized and welded it up. I have built one that flops to do gouges on a hinge, and the bevel angle is adjustable as well, but without some actual turning experiance its just so much steel, but I think it will be fine.

One of the reasons that I asked the honing question is that on my Makita changing wheels is fast, but not fast enough apparently for turning, and I would have to remove the jig I invented every time, so I was thinking of making a combination wheel with 120 grit on the outside and 1000 grit on the inside. I think I can cut the green 120 half off on the metal lathe with a carbide insert at slow speed, but I have not tried it yet. I know I will be able to cut the 1000 waterstone.

Then I will be able to swing my jig from the 120 to the 1000 instantly, after wiping the 120 grit off of the chisel and be able to quickly hone in between with the leather.

I picked up a small real job for the shop anyway so it is just as well the lathe is not running. If this is as much fun as I expect I may have to move the lathe to the house so I don't get sidetracked. I avoided turning for years, even though I have had this lathe for ten years or so, just because it looks like it would be addicting. Same reason I have never played golf.

Gotta go try to find some decent birch plywood........

Thank You Gentlemen.........

[Wilbur Pan]

I think the idea is to spend more time on the lathe than on the grinder/stones/strop....

Why go to the trouble of fine honing?

I...don't believe in taking any more time than needed to get the task accomplished.

...putting a lot of time in honing a gouge just to get it dull in a few minutes seems like a waste of time.

The issue of "wasted time" keeps coming up in these discussions. What often gets missed is exactly how much time we are talking about, and where the honing comes in in relation to making a bowl.

My usual routine is:

1. Get the bowl gouge, and turn the outside close to final shape.

2. Resharpen and hone the gouge, and make my final finishing passes.

3. Sand and finish the outside.

4. Turn the inside of the bowl.

5. Resharpen and hone the gouge, and make my final finishing passes.

6. Sand and finish the inside.

7. Reverse the bowl, and finish off the foot.

Now, usually this whole procedure takes me 1-1/2 hours or so to get a completely finished bowl. Maybe this is slow, in which case I just suck. ;) I hone just two times in the making of the bowl, right before the cuts that really need it. So I may not have a finely honed gouge when I switch to working on the inside, but I don't need it for that part of the process.

I can't speak to other honing processes, but with the Tormek, sharpening all the way to the honing on the leather wheel is only about a 3 minute operation. So that's 6 minutes out of a 1-1/2 hour procedure, which is really not that much time spent at this process.

This 6 minutes of time, I think, is paid off my the fact that [1] I can do the initial shaping of the inside and the outside of the bowl without resharpening at all, which is support for the "honing leads to a longer lasting edge" theory, and [2] I do spend considerably less time sanding because the surface is smoother and I have less tearout. And even if the sanding time I save is only the 6 minutes spent honing my gouge, I'd much rather spend 6 minutes working at the Tormek than sanding.

So from my standpoint, there may be reasons for going straight from a grinding wheel to the lathe, but time savings really isn't one of them.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I also use a Tormek. I sharpen and hone all my gouges, skews, etc. I find I can turn the outside of a bowl and profile it then do the inside of the bowl. I go back to the tormek to sharpen and hone for the final cuts. Like Wilbur most of the time I start sanding at 180 go to 220 then 320 then turn off the bottom and apply finish. IMHO I do find my tools do last longer by honing.

[dennis holt]

As a newbie, I mean really new,(yesterday I started to turn my first bowl on a friends lathe, he is an expert with enviable skills), I noticed that every few minutes he would return to the grinder and resharpen my tool of destruction. A trait that is mandatory among accomplished woodturners it would seem. This AM as I was learning on the internet, I came accross a study that compared the ability to remain sharp of certain steel. My Adobe software quit working partially through the article but the crux was that M2 steel was least resistant to dulling and M15 or VSB was the most resistant to dulling by a significant margin. It also stated that most wood turning tools were M2. Are there any wood turning tools that are of a more resistant to dulling quality made of M15 or VSB? Or is this an answer to a worthless question?
Thanks,
Dennis

[Kyle Iwamoto]

For me, I use a Tormek also, and I bring it into my house, and sharpen and strop my stuff while watching TV. No waste of time there. I do NOT turn for a living, just as a hobby for now, and therefore have not had to stop turning to sharpen. I also use a diamond hone and ceramic rod to touch up my gouges/chisels when I do notice that they get dull.

OK, so just how do you pros get such a fine finish prior to sanding? Is high speed the secret? I can never get away without sanding.

[Dean Thomas]

Okeydokey, newbie! Everyone starts out as one. It's GOOD to ask these questions, any time you find that you need to know. Failing to ask means that you don't get to learn and grow!! If you listen to the wise old heads and not the wiseguys, you won't repeat our mistakes. :)

There are a BUNCH of thoughts expressed on this subject, and some are expressed with great authority and obvious knowledge, but not all of them agree. I'm going to share what was shared with me by someone who did some objective research and some subjective research. He, in turn, had taken most of what was shared from a metallurgist who should know something of which he speaks. ;)

One caution: Don't assume that all tools of the same material are the same. There are some HSS pen tools that seem like a great deal until you realize that the "pen tools" are only 3" of steel. M2 HSS steel costs about the same amount of $$ per inch no matter WHO makes it. Usually when you buy cheap tools (not always!!) you buy a shorter piece of steel and/or steel that is in the bottom portion of the quality range being sold. More on that in a minute. It's really, really important to do ALL of the math when you're comparing tools.

Old school tools were/are made of carbon steel. You can imagine that term covers a lot of ground and that there are better and worse grades of carbon steel. Let's say a "range of qualities". That is going to be true in every grade talked about here, Dennis, so build that in early. Carbon steel can be sharpened to an incredibly keen edge. Very, very nice cuts, but that keen edge does not last very long. Minutes if not mere seconds, according to some.

Next step up is High Speed Steel (HSS) and there is a huge range here; there are at least 5 designators for HSS. The most common type that we see is M2 and it seems to be the hardest of the bunch. M2 steel also has a range of qualities. Some of the English steel is at the high end of M2 and some of the "off-shore" stuff we see barely qualifies as M2. M2 tools are also capable of a very good edge, although some say that the edge is really not as keen as carbon steel. [Dean's note: For me, I don't look at my edges with a 30X magnifier and any minor variations in the edge are virtually undetectable in my finish cuts and are GONE once I touch them with 320 grit paper.] One source says that the edge on (good quality) M2 tools will last approximately six times longer than carbon steel.

An M2 on steroids seems to be cryogenically treated M2 tools by Henry Taylor. These are said to hold their edge 3-6 times longer than M2 treated by traditional methods. That means about18-36 times longer than carbon steel. Big jump. Cryo treatment evidently changes the crystalline structure to strengthen the edge significantly making for an edge that is supposed to be just as keen as carbon steel tools.

Next are the powdered metal tools. These come in two different versions, one of which holds its edge better than the other and costs just a bit more. The latest couple of generations of tools are extremely hard, and are said to outlast HSS by 3-6 times, but usually not as long lasting as the cryo treated HSS, I'm told. Some of the metals guys say that the PM tools are still very, very crystalline in nature and that sharpening them means that you're going to have a less sharp tool with crystal bits missing as they are jarred out of the edge. They have microscopic documentation, but we're still talking MICRO issues. You will notice the difference if you have lots of missing pieces in your edge because it just won't have enough sharp crystals to cut. So they say; I'm just relaying this info. I don't own any of the PM tools.

When spending $$ for these guys it's important to remember that while you're going to pay more for the higher end tools, if they are going to last 3X or 6X longer, and you're going to pay 25% more, that's a darned good return on your investment.

There is one more level of steel in my little treatise here: vanadium alloy. I know of three different vanadium steels that were/are available, V5, V10, and one that was even higher, maybe V15 or V20. V-10 can be ground with the same wheels as HSS steel, but the V15 or 20 has to have a special wheel. TOUGH stuff. Doug Thompson's tools are V10 steel. The V-10 steel is said to hold its edge six times longer than the other PM tools because it has 5 times as much vanadium as the better of the PM tools. Again, that's my understanding of it all. There are some other V10 (a.k.a. A11) tools out there, so they are not unique to Doug, but his are all handcrafted by HIM! I've got two and I really really like them--far and away above my really great quality HSS tools & my one cryo parting tool.

Comparing tools is not just about picking 3 different 1/8" parting tools and comparing prices. One place you'll get 3" of steel on one that is in the lower range of HSS for $15 plus shipping. May or may not even fit onto a standard grinder's tool support. Or you can pick up one made of good steel and from a maker that might not provide well-shaped tools, 6" of tool for about $30. Much better handle, and the STEEL COSTS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME $$ PER INCH OF THE SAME QUALITY STEEL!!!! (that means high end HSS and high end HSS). Or you can get a first-shelf tool ranging from a Sorby 7" for $39 in HSS, to a cryogenically treated Henry Taylor (another top shelf name) 6" tool for nearly $70.

Other high-end tools: Crown's powdered metal tool is a 6" blade for $62. So that means that the Crown will last maybe 3x longer than Sorby HSS, meaning that it's actually CHEAPER to use and sharpen than the Sorby. I used to be really insulted by the price of an Ellsworth gouge at $90. When I realized that it's a 10" blade and a 17" handle, great steel and a specialized, hand-sharpened grind, That's $9 an inch for the steel. A Sorby 1/2" bowl gouge has 9" of steel for $80 and a simple machine ground edge. That's $9 per inch plus I still have to sharpen it to my profile or get what's there sharp enough to work well. Can you see the economy I'm trying to share??

Hope it helps. Remember that ya gots to compare apples to apples! And if you have the $$, well, if *I* had the $$, it would be Thompson tools period. Unpaid, unsolicited comment and commercial. :cool:

[dennis holt]

Hi Dean, that was wonderful, concise, well reasoned and knowledge based. I'll buy the ones you suggest not because I can but because I hate buying crap and I hate upgrading because of a poor choice or an uniformed recommendation. I'll look them up on the web unless you have a source.
Thanks again,
Dennis Holt

[Dean Thomas]

Yup, buy quality once or crap twice. Or more.

www.ThompsonLatheTools.com (http://www.ThompsonLatheTools.com)

Also cool that Doug is a valued member of SMC. I know that if I've misrepresented any of the steels, he'll let us know! :) And that's a VERY good thing.