Veneering Woes

[Carl Eyman]

There was an old Man from LA
Who thought he'd found a new way
To aqpply a layer of veneer
Without clamps or other gear
But the idea stank, to his utter dismay

Some of you may have read an earlier thread about ironing on veneer after coating both surfaces with white glue. I tried it with small pieces, tried leaving them in the sun, and they seemed to be ok. But in real life, forget it. Putting glue on one side of the veneer wrinkles it. The idea that dampining the veneer will allow you to iron out the wrinkles, doesn't work on broad surfaces. The damp veneer sticks to the glue in its expanded state. When it dries it contracts and a bunch of cracks appear.

Now I have a table with a coat of dry white glue all over it. I plan to take the most of it off with water, scraping, and sanding. Then with a piece of what the suppliers call flexible veneer (cloth backed) I will contact cement it on. My question is how careful do I need to be to get ALL the white glue off?

[Rob Bourgeois]

Carl


I know from my limited marquertry experience that any surface imperfections can (and usually do) telegraph through the veneer. However, I should say I have not used the cloth-backed veneers so I don't know how well they can hide surface imperfections.

Good luck

OT: You swimming down there with all the rain? My parents are.

[Carl Eyman]

Yeah,Rob, we've had three separate thunder storms this afternoon. Can't play golf - having to use my five iron to bat off the alligators swimming in the streets. Hey, the surface is smooth, but will a slight residue of the white glue mess up the contact cement?

[Paul Downes]

Carl, the only referance I have seen to that veneering method uses hide glue. I'll try to remember where I saw that article. As I remember, hide glue was applied to both surfaces and to the top of the veneer and a veneer 'hammer' is used to press the veneer onto the substrate. An iron is used to press out any air or glue pockets after the initial veneering is done.

[Paul Downes]

Maybe the current issue of Fine Woodworking?

[Rob Bourgeois]

Carl,
Sorry to hear about the gators..been there, done that, too. :)

I don't have enought experince using the white glue to know if it would screw up the contact cement. My gut feeling is no, but I don't want you to mess up based on my opinion.

You think we ought to let these guys know that gators really arent that bad? And some of us Louisiana boys have been know to grab "small" 3 foot gators for fun.

Rob.

[Mike Palmer]

Carl, I have worked with veneer a good bit. I don't think you need to resort to the contact cement just yet. How large is your table? Can you post a picture of the project. I have glued veneer to table tops with big cauls and little ingenuity before I purchased a large bag for my vacuum press.

To address the glue that is currently on your substrate, you should be able to remove it with sanding.

[Carl Eyman]

Mike: I'll be very grateful for any suggestions since I am a veneering dunce. I don't believe I'll invest in a vacume press or a caul press however. I don't do enough of it.

The size is 52" x 24" with 5 1/2" apron. The legs and the apron are removable.

I originally made the table in the early 1970's for my late sister. Her family expressed a desire for me to restore it since it was a favorite. I originally veneered the top in walnut using Constantine veneer glue. As you may know it is a kissing cousin to contact cement, though I believe it is better suited to wood than the usual contact cement.

This morning I think I solved my glue removal problem. Water and steel wool removed the dried white glue quite well. The heat gun removerd the one piece of veneer I'd applied. I am all ears for suggestions. Thanks

[Mike Palmer]

Carl, the cauls I was referring to in my earlier post was not an elaborate mechanical press. The one thing to keep in mind when veneering is you are trying to apply constant force across the veneered surface to create a good bond with the substrate. This is why vacuum presses have become so popular. The technique I will explain does not require a vacuum press or a screw mechanical press. Below is what you will need.

1. Lots of bar clamps
2. a couple of hydraulic floor jacks (if you don't have borrow from a neighbor)
3. Yellow or white Glue (Ideal would be urea glue)
4. Veneer for covering the top and aprons (for this application 2 ply works well)
5. 3/4" Melamine
6. 2x4's

- You will need to remove the apron and legs from the table.
- Remove any other hardware that may be on the bottom of the table top. You want just the flat surface.
- Sand the table top until all of the old glue is removed and is smooth.
- Cut your new veneer a little larger than the top.
- Create a heavy caul from the 3/4" melamine. I would use 2-3 layers of the melamine. The goal is to provide a surface that will help distribute the clamping pressure and not stick to your veneer. The cauls should be about the same size as your veneer.
- Set up a flat workstation underneath a header beam in the garage. The surface will need to be strong. A work bench would work well if you have one. Otherwise, you could put some 4x4's on the concrete We are going to use the floor jacks to help with the clamping process. The jacks will give you the ability to apply pressure in the center of the top while the bar clamps go around the edge.
- Once you have everything prepared, determine how long your 2x4's need to be to go from the jacks to the beam and cut them to length. It wouldn't hurt to also cut a couple of additional 2x4 for the jacks to sit on. This will help make the pressure more uniform within the center of the top.

At this point you should be ready. Tell everyone to not bug you for at atleast 30 minutes. My wife always comes in my shop when I am in the middle gluing something up.

- Set your top on the work surface. Be sure you can get clamps all the way around. Very important.
- Apply your glue to the top using a roller. The roller will give you better coverage and it's faster.
- Set your veneer on the substrate and cover with the heavy caul.
- Set you first jack up with the 2x4 and apply lite pressure then do the same with the second jack.
- Then use the bar clamps around the edge. Making sure they're 4-6" apart and apply lite pressure.
- Once all the clamps are in place, start increasing the pressure on both jacks and on the bar clamps until everything is tight.
- Let the thing set for 2-4 hours then remove the clamps and cauls. Trim the excess overhang will a flush trim router bit.

Notes: It is always a good idea to veneer both sides of a top to prevent warping. With this setup, I always veneer the bottom first. Also, when you finish the top stand it up and allow air to get to both sides to completely dry overnight. The aprons are done with clamps and cauls. I usually create a sandwich with the cauls and substrate and use the bar clamps to squeeze it all together.

I hope I gave you enough to go on. If not let me know.