Chisel recommendations

[Jim Taylor]

Inspired by the latest FWW, I decided to cut dovetails by hand on my latest project. Though they turned out OK for a first attempt, a couple of things about the chisels I have been using became quite clear:

1. I need to get them sharper
2. My "craftsman" chisels are a bit thick to be doing joinery (not wide, too thick)

I can spend about 80-100 bucks on new chisels next month. For just focusing on dovetails, would I be better off with a few nice chisels (like 1/8, 1/4, 1/2) or should I be looking to get a more complete set?

Also, are there brands I should stay away from, or ones that you would recommend? I have seen an earlier post concerning Chisel recommendations, but was wondering if I could pull out any new thoughts.

Thanks,

Jim

[Matthew Dworman]

Hi Jim,
There are a lot of good choices for chisels out there, but with the recent addition of Lie-Nielsen chisels to the market, I would highly recommend saving your pennies and getting a set of them! If the $250 is beyond your budget, I would also recomend a set of Pfeil (swiss made) chisels which you can get at woodcraft for about $120. What ever you do, don't go cheap. Chisels are arguably among the most important tools you can have. Many people like the Marples Blue Handle chisels which are absolutely fine, but if you can afford to spend the extra $$, it will be an investment that you will be happy with.
Good luck,
Matt

[James Carmichael]

Inspired by the latest FWW, I decided to cut dovetails by hand on my latest project. Though they turned out OK for a first attempt, a couple of things about the chisels I have been using became quite clear:

1. I need to get them sharper
2. My "craftsman" chisels are a bit thick to be doing joinery (not wide, too thick)

I can spend about 80-100 bucks on new chisels next month. For just focusing on dovetails, would I be better off with a few nice chisels (like 1/8, 1/4, 1/2) or should I be looking to get a more complete set?

Also, are there brands I should stay away from, or ones that you would recommend? I have seen an earlier post concerning Chisel recommendations, but was wondering if I could pull out any new thoughts.

Thanks,

Jim

You should be able to get an excellent set of 4-6 bench chisels in that price range. Tools For Woodworking has this set of Two Cherries, which IMHO is as good as you can get. If you want to go on the cheap, you can get a set of Marples blue chips (they maybe labeled Irwin by now) at Lowes for $20, which work fine for me.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=662870d586b65d2c9d41cd2804 d29a75&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-5009050&Category_Code=CTC

[Martin Shupe]

Well, I have Two Cherries, and I have been happy with them so far. Having said that, I have a set of LN's that I have not tested yet, as I have been in school lately. This month's Popular Woodworking said that the LN's were "the best in North America", or some such.

I am trying to decide if I will keep my TC as backups, or sell them. Right now LN does not make all the sizes I have in TC, but they are supposed to be working on them. Maybe when I get the new sizes, I will decide about the TC.

[Steven Wilson]

Any good bench chisel will do. For dovetails you really don't need to many sizes, two will do. But for cleanup and fine triming work I like to use japanese dovetail paring chisels; they really get into the corners nicely. A couple of good sources for chisels are http://www.japanesetools.com/ and http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/ . Give Harrelson Stanley at Japanese Tools and Joel at Tools for Working Wood a call and ask them for specific recommendations. They will both be able to set you up with some great chisels at a price that you can probably afford. Although it's nice to have every size bench chisel made, it's definately not needed. If I was on a tight budget I would rather have a few high quality chisels appropriate to the task (dovetails) than a bunch of chisels not really suited to the task.

[Rich Konopka]

Jim:

I have a set of 6 Hirsch's that I picked up from Lee Valley. They are awesome and hold an edge. When I was researching chisels I found that the Hirsch's and Two Cherry's come from the same factory in Germany. The only difference is the shape of the handles.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=46403&category=1,41504&ccurrency=2&SID=



HTH

[Jim Taylor]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

I could almost convince myself to go for the LN's, but a 6-8 week shipping delay would be painful. I am thinking that the tool roll is worth 40 bucks, and that eases the cost overhead.

In looking things over, I am sort of weighing between the TC's (set of 4 @ $90) and some that were not mentioned, Ashley Iles (set of 6 @ $155)

The TC's "mirror" finish at no perceptable price increase would save me lapping time.

The Ashley Iles look like they have a bit tinner blade, and it also looks like the blade is a more "constant" size all the way up to the handle. I am thinking that both of these are advantages in getting in close and in having a consistant tool over its sharpening life.

Anyone have comment regarding handle type, I have seen:

Boxwood
Bubinga
Rosewood

One more question, is the 1/8 inch blade worthwhile? My fisrt thought was that it would be nice to get in so close... then I wondered if the cutting blade ends up being too small for value (ends up being more like an awl). Some sets have the small blade some don't, most I could purchase it separately... not sure what to think.

Thanks,

Jim

[Mark Singer]

Ashley Iles are great ...I have Them and Hirsch and several others. The thin ones are the best for small dovetails. Handel wood is a personal choice.

[Alan Turner]

I haven't tried the new LN's yet. Can't seem to get Tom L-N to send me a set for testing purposes. This is not surprising.

My favorites are older chisels, and they vary in quality, even within the same line. I have a 1/2" Stanley 750 that is some of the best steel out there. But, I have a 3/8" Stanley 750 that has very poor steel. Go figure.

As to the 1/8" chisel, they are very tough to find on a used basis, and tend to bring higher prices. But, if yu need a 1/8"er, then that is what you need and little else will work. They are not like awls at all.
Alan

[Steve Wargo]

The mirror finish on the TC is by no means a reflection of a prepared surface. They are laquered. I spent about an hour removing the laquer finish from my two cherries and flattening the backs. But I have about a dozen of them, so I don't think that's too bad.
As to the durability, I think they're great. I've used a few Japanese Chisels, Blue chips, Sorby's (I still have a complete set of Sorby heavy mortising chisels), and Pfiels. Nothing compares to the Two cherries. But I've not tried the LN's. I purchased all of my two cherries from Dieter when the Euro was good. Probably don't have more than $250 total with shipping into all 12 of them. For corners of half blinds, I angled some pfiel chisels. They work, but not well. Hope this helps.

[Jeff Bishop]

I just received my set of LN chisels yesterday. My lovely wife bought them for my birthday present ( told me to order them). The young lady at LN told me 6-8 weeks backup also. However, they arrived just over 3 weeks later ( a pleasant surprise), as I also ordered a couple of planes from Shepherd Plane I thought it was them. Now if they would just get here.(Multiple stealth gloat)..

[Matt Woodworth]

I wrote a review on the Hirsch firmer set that might interest you.
http://www.just4fun.org/woodworking/tool_reviews/hirsch_firmer_chisel

[Jim Taylor]

Thanks for the post Matt, you hit a point that I definately did not consider... round handles roll.

I feel the Ashely Iles set calling me from "the best things" site. $155 for a set of 6 which includes the 1/8 inch chisel. I think that I will find more used for the small tool (in a group of 6) rather than an additional larger version. These also have an octgonal handle.

I very much appreciate all of the feedback I have received! I'll be sure to post my thoughts once I have the opportunity to use the tools for a while.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Jim,

No matter what chisel you choose, or if you decide to stay the course with your existing set, you'll need to learn to sharpen! Personally, I like rummaging through flea markets and antique stores for vintage tools. I have found numerous Witherby's, Swan's, Stanley Everlasting and 750's, and a few oddballs such as Riverside, etc. and have never paid more than $6 to $8.00 per! Most of these are superb in edge holding ability, however, a few could be better, but on the whole, I got a wide variety of chisels and types for less than half of what the new L-N would cost.

Tony Z.

[Jim Taylor]

Hi Tony,

I would love to build up a collection of used tools, it is just a matter of taking the time to do it for me... I think that this is definately the best bang-for-the-buck method. The problem for me would be:

1. I need to learn to know what I am looking at
2. I need to find the time to look
3. I would end up slowing down the things that I want to do by looking

Regarding sharpening... at the end of next month, I should be able to pick up a Tormek system for about $175 out of pocket dollars. (I guess this is a, almost, hoping-to-buy, tool gloat) ;)

==========
Before everybody jumps on me over this... it is because I use a Amazon CC for everything, and I get cash back on purchases. LOML has generously indicated that I can use all the "cash back" we have built up to buy a Tormek next month.
===========

Anyways... I have been using the "scary sharp" method, and have come to realize that I would rather be cutting wood than pushing a bit of metal around a block of marble (just my own preference, I'm not too good at the pushing. patient. kind of thing).

[Steven Wilson]

Regarding sharpening... at the end of next month, I should be able to pick up a Tormek system for about $175 out of pocket dollars.
Don't think of the Tormek as the be-all end-all in sharpening. I have one and like it a lot but not for getting a great edge on chisels. It does a reasonable job at establishing a bevel angle but it doesn't get your edge tools real sharp. If you're not use to sharp edge tools you'll love the Tormek as it will probably sharpen tools a lot better than you are use to. However, once you have experienced truely sharp tools you'll find the Tormek lacking. For sharpening I use Shapton stones (ceramic waterstones), very fast cutting stones, either by hand (most chisels) or with a jig (plane irons). The Tormek gets used on turning tools, very light edge reshaping, initial prep of carving tools, planer and jointer blades, axes, adze, lawn mower blades (awesome), many kitchen knives, some scissors, and some chisels. But for my main woodworking chisels and plane irons I like a much more refined edge than what the Tormek will produce.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Jim,

Just a suggestion for you to learn the "basics" of our hobby. That will make the working of wood far more enjoyable in the long run.

As far as what tools you use, remember it doesn't matter what type of chisel (or tool) you use, sooner or later you're going to have to sharpen it!

Make your hobby work for you! If a large part of your enjoyment comes from the feel of a new L-N tool then go that way (Incidentally, I have about 6 or 7 L-N planes and love them). If your enjoyment comes from searching out and restoring old tools, then go that way.

The center of all this is working wood, and not the accumulation of tools (although that's certainly fun).

My turning point was instigated by several books (out of the several dozen I've purchased). For me, the helpful ones were the two by David Charlesworth and The Practical Cabinetmaker by James Krenov. The books are not really loaded with how-to details of various techniques, but rather have a more philosphical view of how they achieve results.

T.Z.

[Jim Taylor]

Hi Tony,

I agree to a point. For me the the process of working the wood is the more enjoyable aspect. I also feel the need to balance the creation process with the practical.

As an example, the little I understand of Shaker philosphy, suggests that they would embrace innovation while threshing out the excessive. The form does not need to be held in check by the process. An author I read when youger indicated that we need to maximize the things which bring us joy, while minimizing the things which do not. I have not felt much joy in the sharpening process so far.

I think my goal at this point is to get things sharp enough for usefulness. While not dedicating more time than I find acceptable. Perhaps in the future I will desire to bring that to the "can't get much sharper than this" mode of operation. Time is the same reason I looked for a new tool rather than an older one as well, just too little time...

I look out at that time Nirvana.... retirement. I know that I will not be one of those people who find retirement boring! But, alas, the wait is sooo long...

[Martin Lutz]

Let the chisel debate continue:) I have set of Marples, Two Cherries, and Swiss made. (I inherited my fathers tools.) The Marples wont hold an edge. I have been told that this is because of the way they are hardened. Annealed is the term I think. They are dipped in groups with the outside chisels becoming more brittle and the inside chisels more soft. If your lucky enough to get a chisel from the middle you have a good chisel. I have the two cherries with the plastic handles, I wish they were the wood handles. No complaints with the Swiss made. They are the ones I use most frequently. My dad always taught me to buy tools to last for your lifetime and that of your sons. I wouldnt go cheap on chisels. I hope this helps.

[Jim Taylor]

To add to the chisel discussion a bit....

I learned today that "The Best Things" drills the handles for the Ashley Iles chisels themselves. On their website they have 2 versions of the product, an American style and a British style. The American style is supposedly longer and with a round handle while the British style is slightly shorter with an octagonal handle (offered in Boxwood or Rosewood). I am guessing now that the length differences are in the handle size, not the chisel blades.

This makes me wonder if other vendors regularly drill their own handles to attached to the chisels. Logically, this approach makes a lot of sence to me. It is also nice to know that they will have handle stock available if I end up spliting one.

I expect to receive my chisels next week, but unfortunately won't get to use them for a couple of weeks... :rolleyes:

[Joel Moskowitz]

The best things version of the Ashley Iles chisel is a shortened blade version of the standard English pattern Ashely Iles bevel edge chisel (which for some reason the best things calls an American pattern which is a different Ashley Iles chisels altogether). Of course when you shorten the chisel you thicken the sides which is a real shame. The handles as you point out are installed by The Best things.

I have no idea why they do this. On their website they say that the many antiques they looked at are shorter than the stock Iles bevel edge chisel. Probably because they are used and got shorter over time. Also it could be that with the longer octagonal handles they needed a much shorter steel body.


THe job of fitting handles is normally done by the cutler in the factory. Why the best things decided to fit them themselves is beyond me - might save some cost I don't know. It's a skilled job which looks dead easy but apparently isn't and can easily be subtly screwed up. I don't know any other retailer who does it. The reason is that in a factory that hand forges (like AI), the bolsters and tangs aren't always perfectly centered, they can be off a touch. So when the cutler drills the handle he compensates by moving the tang hole slightly off to where then outside of the handle registers correctly. And of course everything has to be in-line. Bench chisels are easier to handle than carving tools but it's still a skill.

BTW should you ever split a handle the factory will be happy to get you another or if you send them the chisel fit it properly for you. Any Ashley Iles dealer would be happy to help, just ask them to include a handle or two in their next order or see if they have a few hanging around.

[Jim Taylor]

I missed the shortend blade entirely when comparing the AI chisels between "tools for woodworking" and "the best things". I really thought the bubinga handles looked nice, but what pushed me to "the best things" was the octagonal handles...and the 1/8" blade in their set.

Hopefully, they have put enough handles on so that they know how to do it at this point. I was guessing that they needed to do their own handles because they were "special" order. Thinking that AI may not have been willing to do something different for one supplier.

Great information. Thanks.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Your point about the 1/8" chisel being part of the set is a real good idea and I just added another set of 6 to both the American Pattern the London Pattern which has the 1/8" instead of the 5/8".

[Pam Niedermayer]

...THe job of fitting handles is normally done by the cutler in the factory. Why the best things decided to fit them themselves is beyond me - might save some cost I don't know. It's a skilled job which looks dead easy but apparently isn't and can easily be subtly screwed up. I don't know any other retailer who does it. ...

The better Japanese tool vendors routinely receive the blades and handles separately, assemble when sold. Same with saws. The reason is the multiple options for handle wood. So far as I know, they don't have problems with doing this due to blade formation. Maybe you meant no other Ashley Iles retailer?

Pam

[Joel Moskowitz]

This is the first I have heard of this about Japan and I would question it. I cannot believe any US Japanese tool retailer would take the time fitting ferrules and tangs to handles and then doing the finish grind to make them a unit. I think the handles come pre-drilled but it's still a good bit of work and there is even more to do than a Western tool. You also need a fairly good sized shop. As an importer I have never ever been offered unhandled tools by any Japanese vendor. I also know that there are cutlers in Japan who fit handles.

It's true that fitting handles reduces your inventory and for a small company that is a savings and in traditional Japanese hardware stores that may have been the mode of operation but in that case the retailer would have had to have a full shop for grinding and if they were any size a trained cutler (or the shopkeepr would be a cutler as part of his training).

Saw handle fitting is easier.

Note: just like England where one handle maker supplies all the tool makers I Japan I don't know if they are down to one handle maker but they are close.

[Joel Moskowitz]

I made a small error in my last post. On a Japanese chisel after the handle is installed the bolster and the ferrule are ground as a unit (not the tang which is of course inside the handle and out of sight).

[Manny Hernandez]

Pam,
Just wondering what Japanese tool dealers fit their own handles? Because I've seen how individual sizes come packaged together when imported from Japan. The handles are fitted and each chisel is individually wrapped. I know sometimes they carry individual handles in case you want to replace a damaged one. Also noticed over the past couple years that some of the high end ones are coming with the hoop already set.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I think I'm guilty of a faulty assumption. Let me rephrase: I've seen Harrelson rehandle chisels while making some comment about how handy a process it is. By "routinely" I did not mean all the time, I meant that it was not all that unusual. I've received saws that have been rehandled. I naturally jumped to the conclusion that this happened "routinely." I might be wrong.

Pam