How do you lay out a shelf in an opening that is not square?

[Richard Venturelli]

Wondering if anyone has a fast and effective way of measuring and laying out a shelf in an opening that is not square? I have been installing shelf's in niches which have become common in new homes and it seems no one can do square and plumb walls any longer. The only way I have found is to cut a template from cardboard. Wonder if there maybe a scribe way of doing this? But can't see how this could be done because it's all inside measurements between 2 walls. Looking for a faster tip on this problem...

Thanks,
Rich

[Larry Edgerton]

I cut them long and tip them in at an angle, and then scribe. You do the same for the other end but you have to scribe to a point, usually the back corner for me. Mark that measurement on your shelf and set your scribe to it when it is in place.

I tried using a stair tread like jig to mark both ends but it is too unwieldy in a closet, and didn't scribe in the terrible drywall work in closets, so I went back to scribing.

I sub the trim out from some paper contractors, and I run into this all the time. Ticks me off, especially when these kinds of guys beat me on whole house bids.

[Dewey Torres]

Rich,
I ran into this problem when I installed the top for my shoe cubby.

I got lucky that the 2 opposing walls were flared outward instead of inward.

What I did though was cut the top over sized (too deep) then I matched the 2 opposing sides to the off angle until it fit. Now that I was left with the depth to cut, I made a hard board template using a flat washer and a pencil and match it up with my finish depth and made the cut. Came out perfect but there may be a faster way.

[Anthony Whitesell]

For mounting things on pieces that are not true, I use a method stolen from the cabinet installers. When a cabinet is installed, the unit is leveled without regard to the wall. Then a compass is used to scribe the wall shape to the back of the side of the cabinet. If the niche has a square wall that you can hold a piece against, then this may provide a less trial-and-error way of finding the shelf shape.

[Richard Venturelli]

I cut them long and tip them in at an angle, and then scribe. You do the same for the other end but you have to scribe to a point, usually the back corner for me. Mark that measurement on your shelf and set your scribe to it when it is in place.

I tried using a stair tread like jig to mark both ends but it is too unwieldy in a closet, and didn't scribe in the terrible drywall work in closets, so I went back to scribing.

I sub the trim out from some paper contractors, and I run into this all the time. Ticks me off, especially when these kinds of guys beat me on whole house bids.

Let me see if I got this right, Using 36" as an example of the opening, cut the shelf 37" set your scribe at 1/2" place shelf in opening on angle and scribe. Place the other end on angle and scribe that side? Would that work?

[Scott Loven]

Buy this (http://www.amazon.com/Wheaton-Tools-PL200-Stair-Wizard/dp/B0000224Q2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1232483812&sr=1-1), or make something like it
Scott

[Chris Padilla]

Watching This Old House many, many times, I've seen our buddies Norm and Tom use a compass as a scribe...as outlined by Anthony.

[Joe Scharle]

Take the back angle with a sliding bevel. Measure the front. Take a straight edge to extend the angle from the back to the front. It's easier to do than explain!.

[Larry Edgerton]

Let me see if I got this right, Using 36" as an example of the opening, cut the shelf 37" set your scribe at 1/2" place shelf in opening on angle and scribe. Place the other end on angle and scribe that side? Would that work?

Ya, you got it.

The amount extra you leave is dictated by how out of square that the closet is, but that is something that you will pick up as you go. Usually they are not more than a 1/4" out, but hey, they don't call'em framers for nothing.

The first end cut just set the scribe at the size of the largest gap, on the other end go to the back corner measurement and set the scribe to that point. You don't want to get them too long as then the angle that they are at in the closet gets too sharp, but that too will come after a few tries. Set your scribe a little short on the second cut to compensate for the angled shelf, you can always cut it again.

[Myk Rian]

You could do it like countertop installers. Make a template out of furring strips, and transfer that to the shelf stock.

[Chris Konikowski]

Buy this (http://www.amazon.com/Wheaton-Tools-PL200-Stair-Wizard/dp/B0000224Q2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1232483812&sr=1-1), or make something like it
Scott

I made something similar to this when I did my staircase. Pretty easy to make and every tread fit perfect. Don't see why it would not do it for a shelf as well...

[harry strasil]

A simple solution to an everyday problem for sheetmetal workers and metal fabrication shops.

It depends on how accurate you can measure.
I usually use a large compass, but 2 shorter pieces of light metal or wood strips that are shorter than the whole distance needed to measure will work.
Just put the ends of the pieces where you want them and clamp them together, they used to make sliding rulers that did this, then measure the length.

1. draw out exactly where you want the shelf to go or use masking tape.

2. accurately measure all 4 sides.

3. accurately measure one diagonal from opposite corners.

4. start out by laying out side A on one edge of the intended shelf piece.

5. using a compass, lay out side C with an arc.

6. lay out diagonal X with an arc and draw in side C.

7. lay out sides B and D with compass arcs and draw a line from the end of A with point where arc B and D cross

8. draw in line D

9. cut on the lines, it will fit every time.

Remember High School, its called Geometry.

Jr.

[Chris Padilla]

What Harry showed will work but it won't be a nice fit if there is a wave in the wall. Harry's method will get you close enough that you can then scribe right onto the shelf (assuming you have enough material).

One other trick is to back-bevel the edges you are trying to fit. Don't try and cut waves into a 3/4" piece of plywood. Bevel that sucker to a 1/4" and it'll be much much easier to shape and cut to fit. I use this trick on base molding when the floor isn't totally flat.

[Larry Edgerton]

I made something similar to this when I did my staircase. Pretty easy to make and every tread fit perfect. Don't see why it would not do it for a shelf as well...

Because stair stringers are straight and true, and closets have the worst drywall work in the house. You have to make up for the taping cove. If you cut a straight line there will usually be a gap in the middle.

[Larry Edgerton]

What Harry showed will work but it won't be a nice fit if there is a wave in the wall. Harry's method will get you close enough that you can then scribe right onto the shelf (assuming you have enough material).

One other trick is to back-bevel the edges you are trying to fit. Don't try and cut waves into a 3/4" piece of plywood. Bevel that sucker to a 1/4" and it'll be much much easier to shape and cut to fit. I use this trick on base molding when the floor isn't totally flat.

Absolutely! I have one router with a chamfer bit in it all the time when I trim so I can take the back out of baseboard, shelves and so forth that have to be scribed. I use a jigsaw to cut shelves in. By gosh, buy Bosch.

Some of the methods stated will work good on your own home, but you have to be faster in the market place, or you are dead meat.

[Richard Venturelli]

Ya, you got it.

The amount extra you leave is dictated by how out of square that the closet is, but that is something that you will pick up as you go. Usually they are not more than a 1/4" out, but hey, they don't call'em framers for nothing.

The first end cut just set the scribe at the size of the largest gap, on the other end go to the back corner measurement and set the scribe to that point. You don't want to get them too long as then the angle that they are at in the closet gets too sharp, but that too will come after a few tries. Set your scribe a little short on the second cut to compensate for the angled shelf, you can always cut it again.

I was using the larger measurements for example only. I would never leave that much, the angle would be to steep and would not be a true measurement for where the shelf would set. Like you said 1/4 to 3/8 would probably be a good starting point. I'll give it a go and see what happens

Thanks

[Richard Venturelli]

A simple solution to an everyday problem for sheetmetal workers and metal fabrication shops.
It depends on how accurate you can measure.
I usually use a large compass, but 2 shorter pieces of light metal or wood strips that are shorter than the whole distance needed to measure will work.
Just put the ends of the pieces where you want them and clamp them together, they used to make sliding rulers that did this, then measure the length.


This even makes more sense if its fast, I'd still have to scribe the back. Nothing mathmatics can't figure out! I'll have to jot this down and put it in the notebook for later review!
Thanks Harry

[Charles Saunders]

Solid surface countertop installers make full-size templates from corrugated plasic posterboard material that's cut into strips about 4" wide. They hot-glue them together on site using some stiffeners where needed. The top is then fabricated to the shape and brought to the site where there can't really be much scribing or fine tuning. If you have re-entrant corners (or a situation where the shelf is wider at the back) you may need another approach, especially if it's something than just a flat piece of stock. But this may give you some new ideas.

[Richard Venturelli]

Solid surface countertop installers make full-size templates from corrugated plasic posterboard material that's cut into strips about 4" wide. They hot-glue them together on site using some stiffeners where needed. The top is then fabricated to the shape and brought to the site where there can't really be much scribing or fine tuning. If you have re-entrant corners (or a situation where the shelf is wider at the back) you may need another approach, especially if it's something than just a flat piece of stock. But this may give you some new ideas.

I was thinking about using drywall shims, long cardboard pieces about 1-1/2" wide and a glue gun, but if I need it to fit tight I will still have to use a scribe because of drywall never being flat. I was looking to find the fastest most efficient way. One of those tips and tricks the pro's use, which I consider my self one.:cool: Oh and I hate calk!

[Kelvin Penner]

Work from the center. Measure the back wall and find the center. Find the center of your shelve; make a mark front and back. Measure the back from the center and mark your shelve left and right. Measure out on the wall the size of your shelve. With the aid of a framing square, of the center mark on the back wall measure the front left and right. Mark your shelve and cut. To be sure your framing square is true flip it over and if you get the same measurement then you are good. If you have a problem measuring and holding the framing square lay it out on the floor making sure the walls are plumb.

Just my 2 cents
Kelvin

[Tony Bilello]

Generally, nothing is square on a boat.
Whenever I have scraps of 1/8" luan, I cut them in long strips 1" wide.
You can easily break them with your bare hands.
Lay a piece in place along one side that is cut/broken to the correct length. Then break another piece to fit along the next side and continue until you have all 4 pieces overlapping eachother. Use an electric glue gun and glue the pieces together. Cut a few additional strips for diagonal strenghtening and glue them in place. Now remove this mock-up and trace it out on your good piece.
The lengthiest part of this whole process is waiting the 3 minutes for the glue gun to heat up.

[Richard Venturelli]

Work from the center. Measure the back wall and find the center. Find the center of your shelve; make a mark front and back. Measure the back from the center and mark your shelve left and right. Measure out on the wall the size of your shelve. With the aid of a framing square, of the center mark on the back wall measure the front left and right. Mark your shelve and cut. To be sure your framing square is true flip it over and if you get the same measurement then you are good. If you have a problem measuring and holding the framing square lay it out on the floor making sure the walls are plumb.

Just my 2 cents
Kelvin

Another good solution! And it's fast. Think I'll try this using a measuring stick. Still see the need for a scribe if the walls (joint compound build up) are out of wack.

[Greg Sznajdruk]

These bar Gauges do the trick and they are inexpensive.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32585&cat=1,43513,43553

Greg

[Larry Edgerton]

Generally, nothing is square on a boat.
Whenever I have scraps of 1/8" luan, I cut them in long strips 1" wide.
You can easily break them with your bare hands.
Lay a piece in place along one side that is cut/broken to the correct length. Then break another piece to fit along the next side and continue until you have all 4 pieces overlapping eachother. Use an electric glue gun and glue the pieces together. Cut a few additional strips for diagonal strenghtening and glue them in place. Now remove this mock-up and trace it out on your good piece.
The lengthiest part of this whole process is waiting the 3 minutes for the glue gun to heat up.

I use a method something like this for countertops. I take in a stack of tempered masonite 3" wide and build the countertop outline complete with scribing to whatever needs scribing and screw it together with lots of 7/16 screws and braces across the corners so it stays in it original shape. I then roll it all up so that it will fit out the door and take it back to the shop and build the tops. I have no scribing in the house that way, hence no dust, plus there is no wrestling heavy countertops in and out.

I worked on boats too, and it teaches you to fit odd peices better than any other work I can think of. Crawling around boats is a young mans job though, too hard on old bones.

[Josiah Bartlett]

Another method is to not bother to make the shelves square at all, and specify molding that can cover the gap. Personally I am much faster at fitting molding to a space than trying to cut a parallelogram perfectly. Quarter round is good for this kind of stuff, and it also makes it look like you were really doing a deluxe job instead of trying to save time.

[Larry Edgerton]

Another method is to not bother to make the shelves square at all, and specify molding that can cover the gap. Personally I am much faster at fitting molding to a space than trying to cut a parallelogram perfectly. Quarter round is good for this kind of stuff, and it also makes it look like you were really doing a deluxe job instead of trying to save time.

I disagree. I always look at 1/4 round as a sign of someone that did not know how to make something fit.

[Richard Venturelli]

I disagree. I always look at 1/4 round as a sign of someone that did not know how to make something fit.

yeah and in California they like these heavy looking shelfs, meaning you have a top and bottom about 2" to 3" thick and a piece of trim or decorative chair rail over the front edges. 1/4 round would not look good on the bottom of this type of shelf. And I do agree 1/4 round is just a way to cover a screw up. Here's a pic of what I mean. Obtw I built this cabinet, lot of nice detail on the trim and moldings but you can't see it in the picture..

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll279/evodawg/tvcabinet8.jpg

[Bob Slater]

Wondering if anyone has a fast and effective way of measuring and laying out a shelf in an opening that is not square? I have been installing shelf's in niches which have become common in new homes and it seems no one can do square and plumb walls any longer. The only way I have found is to cut a template from cardboard. Wonder if there maybe a scribe way of doing this? But can't see how this could be done because it's all inside measurements between 2 walls. Looking for a faster tip on this problem...

Thanks,
Rich

I use 1 1/2 by about 3/16ths Poplar strips to make my template. I cut the strips to an approximate length (A bit shorter) then use a hot glue gun to make the exact same rectangle, which I transfer to the wood I am going to use. This works very effectively and the glue joints can be broken easily to reuse the wood.

[Larry Edgerton]

yeah and in California they like these heavy looking shelfs, meaning you have a top and bottom about 2" to 3" thick and a piece of trim or decorative chair rail over the front edges. 1/4 round would not look good on the bottom of this type of shelf. And I do agree 1/4 round is just a way to cover a screw up. Here's a pic of what I mean. Obtw I built this cabinet, lot of nice detail on the trim and moldings but you can't see it in the picture..

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll279/evodawg/tvcabinet8.jpg

Very nice! Too bad TV's are so damn ugly eh?

[David Cramer]

Try this Richard.

http://www.garymkatz.com/TrimTechniques/scribing_shelving.html

If I understood your original question, this is a very good method, but only one of several offered up by many posters.

David

[Richard Venturelli]

Try this Richard.

http://www.garymkatz.com/TrimTechniques/scribing_shelving.html

If I understood your original question, this is a very good method, but only one of several offered up by many posters.

David

Good Article and Reference

[Don Bullock]

You could do it like countertop installers. Make a template out of furring strips, and transfer that to the shelf stock.

That's exactly what I'd suggest. This morning I saw someone do this on DIY TV.:D

[David Cramer]

Glad the reference helped Richard.

What Don recommended will work too.

Use luan strips about 1/8 inch thick by 2 inches wide and as long as you need them.

The catch is when you make the frame, you still have to scribe the wall if you want a tight fight. If a small gap is acceptible, you may get away with not too much scribing.

The inside of walls usually flare out wider towards the opening because of the drywall mud that is packed in the 2 inside corners of the closet.

If using luan strips, I'd cut the back piece to length and then scribe it along the back wall and cut or sand it to the line. You don't have to use a compass, it's up to you Richard. If the gap is 1/4", just put a 1/4" piece of MDF, pine, or whatever you have and use that as a guide to transfer your line to the luan. Put the pencil in front of the material and slide it along the wall from one end to the other.

Then do the 2 side pieces the same way. Now set the 3 pieces on the shelf cleats and hot melt glue them together. You should get decent results that will most likely be good enough to not require caulk. You can add a couple luan strips to support the 3 pieces together.

Good luck and again, there are several ways to accomplish the mission. Choose what works best for you. I hope it works out good for ya!:)

David

[Prashun Patel]

http://www.garymkatz.com/TrimTechniques/scribing_shelving.html