Aaaaarrrggggghhhhh! I Hate Glue-ups!

[Hank Knight]

I've been building Garrett Hack's hunt board that appeared in Fine Woodworking a couple of years ago. I've been working on it for an hour or two here, a day there, for about nine months, and I'm closing in on it.

It's a complicated assembly. The side and back panels are three pieces each splined together and mortised into the legs. The interior dividers are attached to the case bottom with tapered sliding dovetails. This weekend I started the glue-up of the case. I decided to take it slow and approach it in sections. I got the front apron and the dividers glued up and the apron tenons glued into the leg mortises with no (well, minimal) problems. Then it hit the fan.

I woke up early this morning and decided I could get the side panels glued into the front leg mortises by 8:00 A.M., in time to go to work. I got everything ready and started spreading glue. I began to feel the time pressure, especially after I realized I'd spread glue on one of the wrong tenon. I cleaned it off, spread glue on the correct tenon and began to assemble and clamp. The back is glued on last after the interior dividers are assembled into the sliding dovetails, but I needed to slide it on the panel tenons to make sure everything aligned properly. I'd remove it after the glue cured to assemble the interior dividers. The left side went together O.K, but the right side wouldn't close, so I increased the clamp pressure. No luck. Just as I was about to really crank down on the clamps, I noticed that I'd put the top piece of the side panel in backwards - which explained why the joint wouldn't close.

Now I was really panicked and I started cussing myself for not using slow-set glue. I knocked the joint apart, reapplied the glue and reassembled the thing. This time it snugged up just right. Now I'm worried that I've inadvertantly glued the back on. The backwards piece probably deposited glue in the back leg mortise, which may have glued the right panel to the back leg when I turned it around. :eek: I guess I'll go home for lunch and see if the back will come off so I can finish the assembly. If not, I'll break out the big hammers.:mad:

The only good thing is that I was finished (maybe literally) by 8 o'clock, in time for work - but I was, and still am, a wreck! Geez, I hate glue-ups.

[Chris Padilla]

One can't use enough chalk to mark things as clearly as possible but, uh, BTDT!!! :D I love a good glue-up stress sweat...they're wonderful! ;)

[John Schreiber]

I hate them too. I usually think that I should wait until I can get a friend to help so that I can be sure everything will go just right. Then I get impatient and do it by myself anyway. I've had some panicked moments, but I haven't ruined anything yet. (mostly)

[Prashun Patel]

I feel your pain.

[Greg Cole]

Sorry to hear about the frustration, we all know what it's like.
A dry fit session with blue tape or chalk is your friend.
Racing a clock is your enemy.... time isn't always on your side as you have to manage the open time on the adhesive being used as well.
Hopefully you had a long enough ride to work to uncork before starting the day job.;)

[Hank Knight]

This piece has been dry assembled and broken down a dozen times and all the pieces were well marked. I just put in one piece backwards, simple as that. It was so obvious that it was almost funny. All because of trying to race the glue's open time. Haste makes waste, etc.

Hank

[Wilbur Pan]

The left side went together O.K, but the right side wouldn't close, so I increased the clamp pressure. No luck. Just as I was about to really crank down on the clamps, I noticed that I'd put the top piece of the side panel in backwards - which explained why the joint wouldn't close.

Hi Hank,

See, that's why you need the fancy clamps that generate enough pressure so that they reverse the board that you've clamped. ;)

I've done similar things. The most recent was when I was checking a board to see if the corner was square, and then planing to fix the out-of squareness, then realizing that I had been checking for square against the wrong face.

What kind of glue are you using? One advantage to hide glue is that you can easily disassemble a glued joint. Of course, most hide glues have relatively short open times, which puts you right back into the situation that you were in. ;)

Good luck with the rest of the assembly, although I'm sure you won't need it.

[Jameel Abraham]

Hank, I can't tell you how many times I've rushed a critical glue up, or tried to glue against the clock. I learned my lesson after ruining an entire day's work once. The "before work" hour or two always calls. I now do all important operations when I have an open ended timeframe. Wait a sec, who am I kidding!? I should follow my own advice. Please post some pics of the finished piece. I really like Hack's style and choice of woods. Tell us more about the piece.

[Mike Cutler]

Hank

Everyone has done what you did. Glue-ups are just stressful. All your weeks/months of work comes down to just a few minutes, make or break time.:eek:

Word of advice for complex glue-ups, Epoxy. I stopped using Titebond for large glue-ups a few years back. It was too nerve wracking for me.;)

[Chris Padilla]

I really like Hack's style and choice of woods.

I thought Norm was the only Hack around here?! ;) (See the GWW/PT forum and wade through the Norm thread if you can stand it.... ;) )

[Chris Padilla]

Hank

Everyone has done what you did. Glue-ups are just stressful. All your weeks/months of work comes down to just a few minutes, make or break time.:eek:

Word of advice for complex glue-ups, Epoxy. I stopped using Titebond for large glue-ups a few years back. It was too nerve wracking for me.;)

Preach on, Brudda! :D I love that "3-day open time" on epoxy sometimes...at least it feels like that when you're used to going like mad for 12 minutes.

I've really learned to dry run my stuff a couple of times and be really methodical but even then, stuff happens.... :(

[Martin Shupe]

I feel your pain.

Please post pics of this project when you can. It has long been on my list of projects to build.

Too bad I have so little time in the shop.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Word of advice for complex glue-ups, Epoxy. I stopped using Titebond for large glue-ups a few years back. It was too nerve wracking for me.;)

NO :eek:! If you ever need to repair the glue joint you can forget it. Nothing will stick ever again unless you get all the old epoxy off, which isn't possible without loosening the mechanical connection. Liquid hide glue is your friend in these situations. It has a much longer open time than PVA glues. Liquid hide glue will allow you to calmly do your glue up and disassemble any mistake before the glue sets up. It also cleans up with water, is repairable without having to remove all the old glue and squeeze out that you miss cleaning up will not interfere with any finish like PVA, epoxy or any other glue for that matter. You can also disassemble a dried joint with a little hot water or steam. I use Titebond liquid hide glue but I hear Patrick Edwards Old Brown Glue is also good.

Hide glue good :D!

[Dennis Peacock]

DAP Plastic Resin glue is what I use on complicated glueups. The only requirement is that you mix your own glue and the water you mix it with has to be at least 70º F. The down side to this glue is that it's at least an 8 hour clamp time in warm temps. I like it because it has zero glue creep and gives me time to work with my pieces during the glue up. Good stuff.

[Hank Knight]

Well, I missed lunch all together. I hurried home after work and down to the shop. There it was, in all it's clamped-up glory, glowering at me:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/hankknight/HuntBoard010.jpg

The top panel in the foreground was the problem. I tried to pull off the back but, alas, the joint was stuck tight. So I resorted to the time-tested disassembly method - I got a big hammer:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/hankknight/HuntBoard011Medium2.jpg

After a little forceful persuasion,the joint came apart and the back was off. WHEW!!! I was worried. The only reminder of my folly was a little sliver splintered off the top of edge of the mortise where the errant glue remained. It will be covered by the tenon shouder and no one will know but me. Now I can insert the interior dividers and add the drawer spacers and kickers:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/hankknight/HuntBoard012Medium.jpg

I was tired aftert a long day, so I left this for another time. No point in pressing my luck. The rest of the glue-up should go smoothly. All that's left is making the doors and the drawers and finishing.

I've already done the hard part of the finish. The case is soft maple, dyed a dark mahogany red and then painted it with black milk paint. I rubbed the black paint down and got a nice dark reddish brown/black finish with the red showing through in places.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/hankknight/HuntBoard004.jpg

It looks ugly and chalky now, but after an application of BLO and wax it will look nice and mellow. The top, drawer fronts and door panels will be natural curly cherry - a nice contrast, I think. Here's a photo of the case before I dyed and painted it. Quite a difference, don't you think?

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/hankknight/DSCN0615.jpg

I'll get there sooner or later. LOML is advocating sooner rather than later.

Wish me luck.

Hank

[glenn bradley]

Everyone should read this: http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=24137

[Jim Koepke]

Don't feel bad. There is a project in my shop that has been a real pain. It is a rack with 17 mortises on each side. I wish my mouth had stayed shut when a friend asked me if this could be made.

I have finally figured how it may be possible to put the thing together.

The real problem is all the joints have to come together at the same time.

The things we get ourselves into when we try to hurry can be worse than the things we think can be done after a few ales.

jim

[Mike Cutler]

NO :eek:! If you ever need to repair the glue joint you can forget it. Nothing will stick ever again unless you get all the old epoxy off, which isn't possible without loosening the mechanical connection. Liquid hide glue is your friend in these situations. It has a much longer open time than PVA glues. Liquid hide glue will allow you to calmly do your glue up and disassemble any mistake before the glue sets up. It also cleans up with water, is repairable without having to remove all the old glue and squeeze out that you miss cleaning up will not interfere with any finish like PVA, epoxy or any other glue for that matter. You can also disassemble a dried joint with a little hot water or steam. I use Titebond liquid hide glue but I hear Patrick Edwards Old Brown Glue is also good.

Hide glue good :D!

Robert

Epoxy can be "re-adhered" to itself. Heat the joint to about 200 degrees and the epoxy will soften and new epoxy can be applied, epoxy can also "re-bond", if you will to older epoxy.
I agree it's not as easy as hide glue though, or as cheap.

Bob Smalser has an interesting thread here on glue joint repairability.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=21822

[Jameel Abraham]

Whew. Glad its working out Hank. I'm looking forward to seeing the final piece. The painted cabinet with the cherry panels sound interesting.

[David Keller NC]

Curious, Hank - Since hard (sugar) maple's relatively expensive, why not walnut or mahogany, since you wanted a dark color? Generally, one makes a piece intended for paint out of a "secondary" wood, like poplar, pine, cypress, or perhaps soft maple with no figure (i.e., cheap).

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi Hank,

Nice recovery! The finish you're using looks really nice as well.

[Bill Keehn]

Curious, Hank - Since hard (sugar) maple's relatively expensive, why not walnut or mahogany, since you wanted a dark color? Generally, one makes a piece intended for paint out of a "secondary" wood, like poplar, pine, cypress, or perhaps soft maple with no figure (i.e., cheap).

I was wondering that too. Around here maple is even more expensive than mahogany.

[Bill Keehn]

I thought Norm was the only Hack around here?! ;) (See the GWW/PT forum and wade through the Norm thread if you can stand it.... ;) )

Wow.. you want to see this thread degenerate too? ;)

I'm still newish to this forum so I didn't realize that Norm had been elevated to religious icon. I made what I thought was an objective comment - it wasn't even negative (or so I thought). Wow! First time here that I felt such an unfriendly vibe. I deleted my comments and moved on.

Hank, speaking of Norm, maybe you should have used your brad nailer and some construction adhesive? :D Just ask yourself.. WWNAD?

[Hank Knight]

Curious, Hank - Since hard (sugar) maple's relatively expensive, why not walnut or mahogany, since you wanted a dark color? Generally, one makes a piece intended for paint out of a "secondary" wood, like poplar, pine, cypress, or perhaps soft maple with no figure (i.e., cheap).


Good catch, David and Bill. The case is soft maple. I went back and re-read my post and I did say hard maple. Yesterday was not a good day!

Hank