Possibly the best screws ever?

[Dan Friedrichs]

I was re-building a set of stairs (in preparation for covering them with prefinished hardwood), and was using a lot of screws (and PL1) to try and prevent any squeeks. I was kind of disappointed with everything I found at the borg - the nicer (more expensive) Philips head screws were OK, but I still had to lean on the drill awfully hard to keep the bit from slipping. The square-drive deck screws were almost worse - none of the square bits I had really seemed to fit the way I thought they should. Then I discovered these:
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=21415

Absolutely amazing. I haven't broken off a single head, the Torx bit NEVER slips (even at weird angles), and I can put them in and take them out a dozen times and they seem just like new (certainly can't say that for a borg-grade deck screw or drywall screw).

Maybe this is old news to you guys, but I'm stunned. I don't think I'll ever buy a borg screw again....

[Joe Chritz]

Once you get good screws all the rest are tossed.

I generally buy from Woodworkers supply or occasionally Custom Service Hardware (I add a K or two to orders) and get the "assembly" screws. Full size shank and a #17 cutting point. Essentially what you have with a square drive.

I concur with your take on them as well.

Joe

[Dan McCallum]

This is why you guys need true Robertson's, not just the "square drive".

[Clifford Mescher]

This is why you guys need true Robertson's, not just the "square drive".
You are absolutely right. Some are square and some are square with a taper.Clifford.

[Vince Shriver]

I agree with you, Dan. The best screws ever. These things are pricey - but in my opinion they are just the best.

[Karl Brogger]

Just wait till you discover the GRK finish head screws.

[Larry Edgerton]

Every thing at the Borg is built to a pricepoint. That is not a very important objective when you are building something of quality. I once in a while get caught out and have to buy from the Borg, and they are junk to be sure.

I buy all my fasteners from Baer Supply. They do not sell to the public but those of you that are making a living at it may want to check them out. They are a German owned company, and have the most extensive line I have found in all things hardware related.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Man they are sure proud of those. I get the square/phillips drive screws from Fastenal for just about everything I build. I pay $20 for a box of 400. They are zinc coated and have aggressive pitch threads that sink fast. Used them for both furniture and decks.

The only torx screws I have ever used came from HD and they basically stink to high heaven and cam out at the drop of the hat. I prefer the square/phillips combo cause I can get long bits that don't require the bit holder [which I can't stand to use].

[Russ Kay]

I've been getting screws from McFeeley's for years now, and I've never been disappointed with them. Did you catch the review of screws in Woodworking magazine a few issues back? Chris Schwarz tried McFeeleys, Spax, drywall screws, and screws from the Borg. Results: every single one of the Borg screws snapped off when driving into hard maple. None of the Spax or McFeeley's did -- and they were cheaper, to boot! The drywall screws were slightly stronger than the worst ones -- only 16 out of 20 failed when being driven.

-- Russ

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Dan, my local lumber yard carries those as well, great screws!

[Robert Parrish]

I have also been using screws from McFeely for years. I tried their Spax German screws recently and had several break off.

[Jack Clark]

You might want to have a look at this website:

http://www.screw-products.com/

I recently bought one of their sample packs, and so far have been very impressed.

[Steve H Graham]

Here's a dissent from someone who was a boater before taking up woodworking. I HATE Robertson screws. My dad has a boat which is full of them. Every time I take one out, I throw it in the marina and replace it with a Philips head. Robertson screws make life easier on boat builders, but when you're working on a boat after it has been built, they're pure evil. The heads break off, the holes strip with very little effort (at least the bronze jobs), you have to have a different screwdriver or bit for every different size screw, and every time you buy a Robertson screwdriver, some jerk who works on your boat steals it. And wait until you're in the Bahamas and you need to remove something held on with Robertson screws. Seriously, if you've never fantasized about killing someone, this will make you start. Especially when you remember that the builder used these stupid screws on your expensive boat, knowing it would make you suffer.

Marinas all over the US are getting shallower because of the millions of Robertson screws that go over the side. Every time I pitch one, it's a personal victory.

Ease of assembly is only good when it doesn't cause misery for the next guy.

This boat was also built around a refrigerator, by the way. When the fridge went bad, a very big mahogany cabinet had to be cut back so the fridge could be maneuvered out of the galley. But it was easy for the builders, when they lowered it into the hull before adding the upper deck and flybridge.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Robertson was the maker of the first square drive screw....doubtful that the boat in question had those original maker's screws in it. Especially since Phillips and the other design [flat heads] were more popular [God only knows why but I suspect payola was involved] and robertson didn't fare well for very long.

There are many makers of square drives...chances are you dealt with a maker who was a cheapo.

[Vince Shriver]

Just wait till you discover the GRK finish head screws.


I guess I was referring to those, as I look at the box. I buy them at my local lumber yard. This is how they are labeled: R4 Multi-Purpose Screw, GRK Fasteners.

I have put some very long screws in some very tight places, and they have yet to break. I have had to use an impact driver to screw them at times. They have nibs under the head and countersink themselves. These things are the bomb.

[Karl Brogger]

The normal large head screws drive well with an impact, the little finish ones I have trouble using an impact as that tiny little driver tip breaks off. Impressive since the screw is usually fine. All of the GRK fasteners I've used are the absolute best. For hanging cabinets I use the 3-1/8" screws, you they will driving into just about anything they can get a bite on.

If you think those are spendy, try the GRK lag bolts with the torx head. I had to build and install a privacy fence last year, I think they were about $.80 a pop for the 4", and over a buck for the 6". Don't want to waste too many of those babies! They look way nicer than a ugly galvanized hex head sticking out of a 4x4 though.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Here's a dissent from someone who was a boater before taking up woodworking. I HATE Robertson screws. My dad has a boat which is full of them. Every time I take one out, I throw it in the marina and replace it with a Philips head. Robertson screws make life easier on boat builders, but when you're working on a boat after it has been built, they're pure evil. The heads break off, the holes strip with very little effort (at least the bronze jobs), you have to have a different screwdriver or bit for every different size screw, and every time you buy a Robertson screwdriver, some jerk who works on your boat steals it. And wait until you're in the Bahamas and you need to remove something held on with Robertson screws. Seriously, if you've never fantasized about killing someone, this will make you start. Especially when you remember that the builder used these stupid screws on your expensive boat, knowing it would make you suffer.

Marinas all over the US are getting shallower because of the millions of Robertson screws that go over the side. Every time I pitch one, it's a personal victory.

Ease of assembly is only good when it doesn't cause misery for the next guy.

This boat was also built around a refrigerator, by the way. When the fridge went bad, a very big mahogany cabinet had to be cut back so the fridge could be maneuvered out of the galley. But it was easy for the builders, when they lowered it into the hull before adding the upper deck and flybridge.


I agree, Steve! Those things are the stupidest gimic I ever had the misfortune to cross paths with. Ususally when you try something you don't normally use, you can see a use, even if it is not one you will ever need filled. Not so with square drive screws of any flavor. What on earth is the point, other then making another proprietary (sp?) attachment need? Exactly what do they do better then phillips? Utterly ridiculous IMHO. Not to mention the design is weaker than any of the other alternatives...

Wish I had a marina to toss them in.

[Steve H Graham]

I don't know who made the screws. If you call Hatteras Yachts, they can probably tell you.

[guy knight]

impact drives make life allot easier

[Chris Friesen]

Not so with square drive screws of any flavor. What on earth is the point, other then making another proprietary (sp?) attachment need? Exactly what do they do better then phillips?

The phillips bit was explicitly designed to cam-out when the screw is sunk all the way. This was desirable with early automated assembly (no torque controls on the drivers) but not so much in woodworking (the bit cams out, tears up the screw and the bit, and may skitter on to the workpiece).

Good quality square drive/Robertson screws are much better at resisting cam-out. They require less force to keep the bit engaged in the screw while driving it, and they also allow you to stick the screw onto the bit and then place and drive it one-handed.

Incidentally, there are at least four sizes of phillips bits as well.

[Steve H Graham]

I use the same size Philips bit for a wide variety of screws, including 1/4" x 3" into two-by-sixes, and I never have a problem.

[Sonny Edmonds]

Well, not being one to kiss and tell, I'd have to say they were all the best ever.
Never had to chew my arm off to get away, anyway. :D

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Chris, the lack of cam out is one of the biggest problems with square drive. The smaller bearing surface of the square drive gets obiterated when bad things happen. This makes it absolutly impossible to easily back out the screw. Phillips just tears up the "forward" side of the drive as it cams out. Most of the time a phillips can still be backed out, and replaced.

Not arguing that better quality screws don't help, they do, but this simple little device sure can take a lot of time to fix when you have to resort to vise-grips and easyouts to take care of a situation. Why risk it?

The torx head GRX screws overcome this lack of cam out issue by having a massively stronger driver to screw interface. I have broken several below the surface, and stripped one torx GRX, out of the thousands that I have used. The one I stripped was due to a used up bit, and it cammed out. I was able to back the screw out with a new bit. I do still have an assortment of square drive, and Roberton drive screws, that I quit using after rotten results. Maybe someone will buy them from my estate sale.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Well, not being one to kiss and tell, I'd have to say they were all the best ever.
Never had to chew my arm off to get away, anyway. :D

LOL!:D Sonny, you cracked me up again!

[Steve H Graham]

I wonder if everyone knows what you're talking about. When I bought my table saw, the seller (a professional woodworker) was astounded by my cordless impact driver. He didn't know what it was.

Many of the problems with screws are caused by the obsolete hand drills people use to install them. An impact driver is much less likely to strip fasteners, and it doesn't apply torque to your wrist the way a drill does. It drains the battery slower than a drill, and it delivers amazing torque. You can put a socket adapter on it and use it as an impact wrench.

Drills are pathetic compared to impact drivers. When I bought my Panasonic, I got a drill with it, because the combination drill/driver kit was actually cheaper than the driver all by itself. I am not sure I've ever used the drill. It stays in the box, because I have a Bosch hammer drill that puts it to shame in every respect. But the impact driver is the most useful tool I own. If you haven't tried one, you need to get with it. It will blow your socks off. Mine even has an LED on the front to illuminate the work.

[Danny Thompson]

My local BORG, actually LOWES, carries a very similar screw that I have used and love. It is labeled as a cabinet screw and is sold in a clear plasting hanging box displayed on a hook across from all the deck screws. They are self-tapping, star-head screws. Drive well. The only problem is that they sometimes drive so well that the wood splits when the head drives too deep.

[Chris Friesen]

Chris, the lack of cam out is one of the biggest problems with square drive. The smaller bearing surface of the square drive gets obiterated when bad things happen. This makes it absolutly impossible to easily back out the screw. Phillips just tears up the "forward" side of the drive as it cams out. Most of the time a phillips can still be backed out, and replaced.

While this is true, I have to say that I haven't really had any problems with good quality square drive/Robertson screws. The cheap ones from the Borg break and strip, but with decent ones (I like the Robertson-branded ones) I've rarely stripped the head, and never badly enough that I couldn't back out the screw.

Incidentally, if you like the Phillips style you should really like Posidriv screws. The design looks similar to the Phillips but was redesigned for reduced cam-out.

[Peter Quinn]

My local quality lumber yard (ie not a Borg) sells GRK's, variety of sizes and applications, pricey but absolutely the best fasteners of their kind i have ever used. And I like the torx drive too. Most borg screws are low bid brittle garbage and are best avoided. False economy in the long run.

On the philips versus square drive argument, I prefer square drive vastly for assembly of most things, I prefer the look of philips or straight slotted for hardware or visible screws. If you are going to beat your screws in with a half shot tore up bit, no pilot even when necessary, or whatever bit size you have hanging around than I'd guess you are going to have problems with whichever screws you use. Most square drives are either #1 for small or trim screws and #2 for up to #10-#12 screws, not really hard to keep track of even for disorganized me.

Philips on the other hand regularly requires I have sizes 0-3, very rarely #4. I love trying to remove a #12 1 1/2" hinge screw screw inserted by a butcher using a #2 philips drive because "that's what he had in his drill". Yes, those that drive every philips of any size with a #2 driver piss me off. It strips enough of the metal out that you cannot remove it or drive it forward. And a #2 or #4 hardware screw will not tolerate being driven by the wrong philips size either. At least slotted screws have the courtesy to reject the wrong size driver completely. And brass or bronze screws need the correct driver regardless of size, preferably a fresh tip that has not just been used to sheet rock an entire house.:D

I have seen cordless driver junkies attempt to drive every manner of screws with a drill, many on the smaller end would have been better served by the original cordless screw driver, the one with the handle you rotate in a circle!:rolleyes: Do you really need to drive a 5/8" #4 screw with an 18V impact driver? Really?

Someday I will find the guy who stripped all the screws in my old bungalow and return to him the pain I have suffered removing them as I restore it. Please help the next guy out and use the right bit. It might even make your life easier.

End rant.

[Harry Hagan]

These caught my eye in the latest McFeely's catalog.

http://www.mcfeelys.com/spax

[Ray Newman]

Dan Friedrichs: do you the country of origin for the Rockler screws?

[Dan Friedrichs]

Dan Friedrichs: do you the country of origin for the Rockler screws?

I believe GRK is based in Canada, but I don't know if the product is actually made there or not.

[John Callahan]

GRK's are top notch. Still recall the time we ran out of GRK's on a condo project (cabinet installs) and boss brought some screws from the BORG ........ lots of cussin' the rest of the day with screws snapping left and right.