Backsaw Backs without Special Tools

[Robert Rozaieski]

Phillip Pattee asked if I would post on the new method I've recently tried for making traditional folded backs for backsaws so here goes.

First some quick background. A couple months ago, I made my first backsaw. I wanted a traditional 18th-19th century saw with a folded back but I didn't have a very big budget. Plus, I like making my own tools so I thought I'd have a go at making one. I posted about this saw here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=96443).

When I made this saw, I thought long and hard about how to fold the back. I did not have a bending brake so rather than buy a piece of flat brass and try to bend it from scratch, I tried a piece of 3/4", 14 ga. angle steel from Lowes. Steel backs were as traditional as brass so I was ok with steel. Plus it was a lot cheaper at $7 for a 3' length. I was able to make an acceptable back by cold forging it on the anvil of my machinist vise, however, this was not the greatest method. First, it introduced some unwanted bends and twists that I had to spend a lot of time and have a lot of patience to remove. Second, the finished back had a lot of dings from the vise and hammer that I just couldn't get out without a lot of filing, which would remove too much metal and take too much work. In the end, the back worked out ok but it doesn't look so good and was time consuming to make. Before trying again for another saw, I wanted to come up with a different method for folding the back.

So here's what I came up with. I still used the 14 ga. angle from Lowes as a starting material. Like I said, I'm fine with steel as it was a traditional material for backs and it was much cheaper and easier to start with than flat brass. Here's the steel as it comes from Lowes in 3' lengths.
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I bought two pieces, one 3/4" and one 1". The 3/4" was for a carcass saw and the 1" will be for a tenon saw. I can get several backs from each piece of steel so I'll likely be making several saws in the long run. Since the steel is already bent at 90 degrees, all I really need to do is close the bend evenly. Here's what I came up with.
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When the idea first came to me to use the old metal bench vise as a press I almost slapped myself in the head for not thinking of it sooner. The wide surfaces could apply very even pressure, unlike my hammer and anvil work, and I could crank down and bend it very gradually and controlled. I first cut a length of the steel to the length necessary for the back I'm working on. I then put this piece in the vise with the open end right on the guide bars. Of course if your vise is mounted to your bench you don't have to do this upside down. Since mine was an old vise no longer in use (replaced by the wooden twin screw) I just clamped it to the bench upside down.
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I then crank the vise and gradually close the bend. The back will be longer than the vise so you need to close the steel slowly and shift the steel over after each crank to make sure you bend the entire length evenly to prevent it from bending or twisting from uneven stress. Don't try to bend it too much all at once. The picture here was after four or five times shifting the steel back and fourth.
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Continued.....

[Robert Rozaieski]

Keep closing the bend a little at a time and shifting the steel back and fourth to continue closing the back. Check the back often to make sure it remains straight as you fold it and take it slow. You may not be able to close the back completely in the vise. I was able to with the 3/4" piece but not with the 1" piece. However, once you get the back almost completely folded (U-shaped), you can complete the close with a hammer on the anvil of a machinist vise without causing it to bend or twist in the wrong direction.

The resulting bend is much straighter, easier and faster than my previous attempts at bashing the steel closed on the anvil. I bent a total of 3 backs this way so far and none of them has needed any adjustment after completing the folding. The back stays straight and doesn't have the tendence to twist as it did before.
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This back is the 3/4" back for the carcass saw. It's about 10" long.
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I also successfully bent two 1" backs, one at 16" long and 1 at 19" long. Sorry, I didn't take pics of these, but they came out just as good as the shorter 3/4" back. The best part is that there is very few scratches and dings on the outside of the backs after bending this way. This means that just a little work with a file to put on some chamfers and clean up the sides, followed by a little sanding with 150 grit and a quick trip to the muslin wheel on the bench grinder finishes off the back very nicely. The pic above was before I did the filing, sanding and buffing.

[Alan DuBoff]

That'll work! I have a similar one I did with mild steel, almost identical to that. I also have a couple pieces of brass. Brass is easier to work with, IMO. You could start with brass angle and do the same.

There are two types of backs, one is a kinda horseshoe shape which acts as a spring to hold onto the steel, and another type which folks hammer flat. All seem to work just fine, as does slotting with special tools...:rolleyes:

Good to see folks making saws. :)

[Robert Rozaieski]

Brass is easier to work with, IMO. You could start with brass angle and do the same.

You sure could. However McMaster only has Alloy 385 angle brass so I wasn't sure how bendable that would be. Also, the brass is about $11.50 per foot plus shipping (sold in a 2' length for $23, still really not that bad) while the steel is about $2.35 per foot (sold in a 3' length for $7 and change) and doesn't need to be shipped if you have a Lowes close by. For a first (or in this case second) attempt without knowing if it would work I liked the idea of only ruining $7 worth of material :D instead of $23 plus shipping. Plus, I wasn't sure if the Alloy 385 would work. Do you know if Alloy 385 would be bendable in this type of setup Alan? If so I may want to try some.

[Phillip Pattee]

Robert,
Thank you for the tutorial. That is very helpful. There are several sources for vise breaks like this http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/19230 that will take flat stock to a 90 degree bend. Taking that same stock to a 180 bend without hammering it out of shape was stumping me. This should be something just about any one with a metal vise could achieve with some care and patience. Again, thank you for sharing your method.:)

[Zahid Naqvi]

Thanks, I think even I can do this :D

[Alan DuBoff]

You sure could. However McMaster only has Alloy 385 angle brass so I wasn't sure how bendable that would be.
...
Do you know if Alloy 385 would be bendable in this type of setup Alan? If so I may want to try some.
Robert,

The trick with the alloys is first to understand what you want, then to find a source that sells it. I am not familiar with Alloy 385, but use Alloy 360 for milling. It is Alloy 260 that you use to work it by hand. I would assume by the numbers that 385 is more similar to 360, but not certain. 464 Naval Brass/Bronze is much stronger, and much more difficult to mill, but used a lot in marine applications.

I reference online metals for some ideas of what can be done with the Alloys (http://www.onlinemetals.com/brassguide.cfm). But I don't see Alloy 385 listed.

[Alan DuBoff]

Robert,

Had to bump this thread. I thought you would beat me to getting a saw done, but haven't seen anything from this thread yet! :rolleyes:

[Robert Rozaieski]

Robert,

Had to bump this thread. I thought you would beat me to getting a saw done, but haven't seen anything from this thread yet! :rolleyes:

Sorry, moving slow on this one :o. The handle is almost finished. Just need a little more rasping and then I have to make the split nuts and file the teeth in the plate (which is already made and fit to the back). I've been working on the "real" tombstone doors for my built-in project and was playing with the saw in between. I mucked one of the door frames up last night so I need to rebuild the frame for that door now :mad:. I may play with the saw a little tonight. I need to take a break from the doors as I was fairly mad at myself for making such a careless mistake last night. I've been in get it done mode since building the prototype door and I paid for it last night. I should know better :rolleyes:.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Well, while I procrastinate getting started on re-building the door frames for the built-in :mad:, I finished the carcass saw :D.
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It's basically a larger version of the first dovetail saw I built, so now I have a pair of dovetail saws. I like having the right saw for the job so I didn't want only one dovetail saw to do double duty. The smaller one (the first one I made) was designed for cutting dovetails in thin stock like drawer sides and small boxes. The carcass saw is designed for thicker stock, 7/8" thick and up, where the smaller saw would be too slow (for me ;)).

This saw will likely see a lot more use than the smaller saw as it would be used for dovetailing carcass sides and could even be used as a small tenon saw for narrow tenon cheeks. The carcass saw is also the saw that the new back was used on. You can see how much cleaner it came out in the picture. The smaller saw back has a lot more little dings and dents from the machinist vise jaws and hammering that was done. Since the larger back was folded as mentioned above, no machinist vise or hammering was necessary so the back has almost no flaws except the minor ones that were in the metal originally from the store.

The carcass saw finished out with a plate length of 11" and I filed it at 15 PPI (14 TPI) rip with a 5 degree rake angle. I tried it in some 7/8" poplar side by side with the smaller saw and it definately cut faster (obviously). Four strokes with the smaller saw went a little less than 3/4" deep. Four strokes with the new saw went almost 1-3/8". Quite a difference. I think the two make a nice pair.

Next up, a 16" tenon saw.

[Alan DuBoff]

Robert,

Looks good. Looks like it has a similar hang as the dovetail saw also.

I'm re-using the handle I broke on the last saw for a small tenon saw, but I thought about making a new one as the hang was a tad high for what I like on a small tenon saw. I'm going to try it though.

A crosscut would compliment both these saws nicely.

[Berl Mendenhall]

Bob,
Thank you for all the instructions and pictures. You make me want to make my own saws.

Berl

[Robert Rozaieski]

Robert,

Looks good. Looks like it has a similar hang as the dovetail saw also.

I'm re-using the handle I broke on the last saw for a small tenon saw, but I thought about making a new one as the hang was a tad high for what I like on a small tenon saw. I'm going to try it though.

A crosscut would compliment both these saws nicely.

Thanks! The hang is about the same. With only a 2" difference in plate length I didn't experiment much. Plus these plates are not very deep so changing the hang really shouldn't be necessary. Most of the force is close to the tooth line with a shallow plate. The main difference between them is the PPI and it seems to makes a big difference in thicker stock as my test cuts showed.

A crosscut model is on the list but I already have a very nice Atkins 14" filed crosscut that I've been using for years without any complaints so the crosscut isn't as high on the priority list as a good rip tenon saw. The tenon saw I have just isn't my favotite saw to use. It's pitched too fine for cutting tenon cheeks and since it's only 12" I really don't want to retooth it to a lower pitch as I already know I want a longer one anyway. The 16" saw I'm planning will replace the 12" one. Just need to order some 0.25" 1095. But now I have to get those doors done. :o

[Alan DuBoff]

Thanks! The hang is about the same. With only a 2" difference in plate length I didn't experiment much. Plus these plates are not very deep so changing the hang really shouldn't be necessary. Most of the force is close to the tooth line with a shallow plate. The main difference between them is the PPI and it seems to makes a big difference in thicker stock as my test cuts showed.
Those look like they're patterned off the Grammercy handle template, I like that template, it looks nice with graceful lines.

A crosscut model is on the list but I already have a very nice Atkins 14" filed crosscut that I've been using for years without any complaints so the crosscut isn't as high on the priority list as a good rip tenon saw.
I have a Peace I use sometimes, but making a couple crosscut saws now.

I'm planning out what I have material for, and what I need. I have a piece of bronze that I need to cut up, I might be able to get 3 or 4 saws out of it, and might order another piece...was eying a piece 24" x 3" x 1/4" which is about $200...:eek:

I was laid off last week, so will get a bit more shop time, not exactly how I wanted to get more shop time, but not a bad package and I'll work through the issues of finding more work...maybe I'll make some saws for sale in the mean time, not sure...I'm still refining some of my saw making components...

The night I was laid off, I came right home and ordered some .020" (3" wide x 25' long) and .018" (2" wide x 50' long) to have for joinery and carcass saws. I'm gonna try to take the large Joiners saw to 16" length with the .020" plate. 12" will be enough on the small Joiner's saw, using the .018" plate.

I also have some .032" plate that is 4" deep, I have a section that is 36" long, so I can do 2 saws that are 18" long tenons, also. I have all the cutters I need so just need to invest some time.

I also figured one thing wrong with the handle that broke, it seems the slot is slightly twisted towards the back of the mortise, and causes the blade to bind when pushing the back into the mortise tight. I'll just make a new handle I guess, keep that one on the shelf for keepsake...

The tenon saw I have just isn't my favotite saw to use. It's pitched too fine for cutting tenon cheeks and since it's only 12" I really don't want to retooth it to a lower pitch as I already know I want a longer one anyway. The 16" saw I'm planning will replace the 12" one. Just need to order some 0.25" 1095. But now I have to get those doors done. :o
I used .025" x 3" for the large Joiners saw I made previously, which I gave away in lieu of my mill motor. I only have 2 pieces left, both 12" that I had cut to length before. Those will be a matched pair of small tenon saws, one has the back slotted already.

I have a pair of plates also that are smaller, about 8" and 9" respectively. I'll use those with the very small 1/8" x 1/4" brass. I have one piece slotted that should work and I have another section I can slot for the other. Those will be smaller 16 ppi gent saws.

[Phillip Pattee]

Robert,
Both saws look very nice. I'm encouraged to try it myself.:)