Checking a myth

[Moshe Eshel]

I heard somewhere (can't remember where) some time ago, that if a turning cracks during drying - you can immerse it in a mixture of white glue and water and have it (in some cases, especially in green wood) close the cracks up.

Now, I tried this on a vase I made from wet pine, I made the vase out of really green wood (no more than a day between felling the tree and the actual turning - water was flying from the turning blank - even when not cutting). I did a big mistake of finishing the vase with wax - what do you know before long it cracked and badly.

So I put it into a bath of about 1/3 White glue 2/3 water and let it soak for two days... and the cracks closed!

Then I chucked it back on the lathe and turned it down some more - but after a week of drying cracks appeared again.

So I now immersed it for a second time - this time it's still in the bucket (for about 5 days now) - on inspection the cracks closed again.

But now I wonder - is it still gonna crack? do I just need to turn it much thinner? (the side is quite thick, as I basically just drilled out the core, and didn't do any hollowing - maybe that's my problem?).

Did this ever work for you? am I wasting my time (and about 3 pounds of white glue)?

Attached are images of the turned vase (before first cracking) and the pile of wood from which it came (not a gloat, I only got a small log left over after all this wood went for firewood :-( )
(Whatever the answer, this weekend I'm gonna chuck it one last time, this time hollowing the inside as well, we'll see how it goes).

[Jeff Nicol]

Moshe, Pine is a tough wood to turn green, it is very soft and porous and will loose moisture very quickly! It cracks very easily, when turned. What kind of pine is it, it looks like red pine or some sort of spruce? Anyway when you put it in the water and glue it sucks up the water and expands back to where it was. What I do when I turn pine is rough turn it and then then cover the whole outside with anchor seal and making sure all the end grain is filled good! Make sure not to rough it out to thin as this contributes to the super fast drying. Put in the paper bag and check on it during the first day to see what it is doing. it should stabilize in the bag and dry slowly. After a few weeks I may bring it out and put in on the shelf with the others and finish it a month later.

I have never tried the water and glue method, but it might work on other woods better.

Good luck, and hope my rambling helps!

Jeff

[Moshe Eshel]

I'm not quite sure what pine it is, in Israel most forests are planted - since the wood run trains of ?150? years ago finished up the original forests (Oaks and others)...
The Israeli forest authority planted all kinds of trees among them many pines which are not native (this policy has changed recently I think)
So this pine might be one of several (Pine for sure, that far I am certain)
Pinus halepensis - this one does grow natively as well in Israel
Pinus pinea - also a native
and Pine canariensis

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Moshe,

If after it has dried the cracks reappear, you can often safely repair them with epoxy. Usually what I do is as follows: crush instant coffee crystals to make a powder. Mix some 15 minute epoxy and stir in the crushed instant coffee crystals to color the epoxy dark brown/black. I usually temporarily seal the inside of the crack in the vessel with blue painter's tape and the pour the epoxy into the crack from the outside of the vessel. I sometimes use a toothpick to help massage the epoxy into the crack. If the crack is really tight....I have thinned the epoxy with denatured alcohol.

Good luck!

[Bernie Weishapl]

Moshe I turn mine thin from start to finish a 1/4" thick or less. I then soak it and I mean soak it with antique oil or Seal-A-Cell oil until it won't take any more. I start on the inside and just keep the oil on it so the surface is wet and it starts to come thru to the outside. I then apply it to the outside and keep it soaked (surface wet) for at least 15 minutes. After about 15 minutes I wipe of the excess and let dry for 24 hrs and then do the same thing over again for about 3 coats. If it cracks I do like Ken. I mix epoxy with sanding dust and fill the crack. If it is a hairline crack I mix epoxy with denatured alcohol and soak the crack.

[Curt Fuller]

Moshe, I hope I'm correct in crediting Wally Dickerman for the white glue and water soak method. I haven't tried it personally but I think it works under the right circumstances. Your difficulty may be that the wood you're turning is just too green. There's too much shrinkage to overcome the cracking even with the glue. If you were to turn some wood that was already partially dry, and something with less moisture content than pine to start with, I think the process would probably work.

[Moshe Eshel]

Thanks Curt, for giving me a reference, there is an old Jewish saying which wouldn't translate well, but the gist is "He who gives credit where it's due, brings salvation o the world" (as I said, doesn't translate well...).

Anyway, I would love to hear from people who tried this, and if it worked and in what circumstances...

[Allen Neighbors]

Moshe, the white glue/water mixture is used for stabilizing very punky wood, that has spalted to the point of being almost rotten.
Welcome to SMC. :)

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Hi Moshe, yes it works Moshe, but there's a reason the wood split in the first place, and just gluing the splits back together didn't take the reason it split away.
First off you will have to turn the wood thinner so it can give when drying, and further you will have to slow down the drying so the changes in the wood are slow and the wood can move to it's new shape slowly.
I've used the glue-soup as I called it, on a few split and punky wood turnings, but as wood is easy to get here, it's easier to make a new one and do it right, rather than trying to repair one, (you can always tell) so unless it is some special wood I won't go through the trouble anymore.

[Moshe Eshel]

Thank you all for your help, I find that when I have "shop time" I like to try new techniques as well as practice old ones - I'm in it for the learning, and occasionally have something nice to show for the time.

I remember that the first bowl I tried turning, I wanted to give that one finishing touch, my gouge strayed a bit too much - and BOOM, bowl split into three and flew across the room. I kept the broken bowl for a long time for two reasons - one: it was my first and back then every piece of wood was as dear to me as a child (now that I have children I realize how stupid that was :-)), two: I liked to look at the cross cut and see that I nearly had it, so close yet - so far away....

Anyway I digress, it's not about saving the wood, I did one I can do many more - i'ts about learning about my material and how it works...

Leo and Allen thanks for the info - I indeed realize that I should have turned it much thinner (the base guidance I received on this what that once you get below 1/2" I should be fine.)

[Gregg Feldstone]

Yom Tov Moshe,

I was wondering if Olive wood is any less expensive there at the source?
Or what about acacia or other native woods? Would it possibly be cost effective to ship to the US?

[Moshe Eshel]

I guess this is more of a PM type of question. but I guess you are not the only person who would want to know the answer :-)

Anyways, as with everything it depends...

In Israel it is very hard to find Olive wood for sale (or any other species that you mentioned) - it is however not too hard to find it for free or as firewood. The climate and other conditions do not allow trees to grow as they do in California and other places.

The processing part is very expensive. Cutting the wood to get the blanks, The material loss because of the nature of Olive wood with all the cracks, voids and hollows and the loss due to the fact that you can almost never get a Log, it is always a branch or small part of a log of a dead tree (because almost no one takes down a living Olive tree - they are protected by law as well).

This makes it practically impossible to use Olive wood for carpentry (not possible to get a usable board), and the available blanks for woodturning are never large (or they are really cracked up...). And it causes the price of a single blank to be quite expensive (not to mention shipping costs, Olive is a relatively heavy wood).

I must say that I once tried "exporting" to the USA - I managed to sell for prices a bit lower than the known sellers, but the fact that I'm no expert and the exchange rate (which is even worse today) made it almost not worth it (I didn't lose, but the profit was close to nothing) - as a result I never did it again.

Following this link you can see the one time I got lucky and scored a whole tree:
http://www.eshel.us/olivewoodharvest

I'll be happy to answer any other questions you have here or by PM...