Stair resurfacing project – looking for advise/suggestions

[Benjimin Young]

Stair resurfacing project – looking for advise/suggestions

This thread is a little long but I wanted to provide sufficient detail and set the context for my questions which are at the end.

The Project
I am going to resurface my staircase. I have a lot of well-seasoned rough sawn ash (5-6% moisture) about 2 ¼ x 6 ¼ and 8 ¼, mostly face sawn; I expect a fair bit of waste to create good stain grade “tread cover”. The plan is to leave the stairs undisturbed (except for cutting off the existing bull noses) and create thinner treads (lets call them tread covers) from my ash with a stain grade finish and cover the stringers and risers in ¼ paint grade ply.

Tools
I do not own a bandsaw so I will be re-sawing on my General 2HP cabinet table saw (two 3” cuts to re-saw a 6”) , jointing on my 6” jointer and planning on my Dewalt planner.

Specifications
The existing stairs are old 1945 vintage paint grade ¼ sawn Douglas Fir, a totally enclosed staircase, with three turn steps at the top. 12 risers 3ft long, 9 ¼ treads, (except for the three turn steps). I plan to make the tread covers ½ thick with a 1” bull nose. The riser cover ( ¼ “ ply) will be installed after the tread and thus cover a small amount of movement at the back edge of the tread cover.

By the way, the first riser is short due to a main floor change and the top riser is high for a similar reason so the tread re-surface project will actually bring things back closer to building code as far as riser heights are concerned.


The Test
I tested milling the tread covers in two ways:

Option 1) I re-sawed the ash into two sizes (face sawn) and finished to 5/8”x6” and a 1-1/8”x 4”. I cut a deep rabbit in the 4” piece to create a partial ½” thickness and then glued the 6” and 4” pieces together.

Option 2) I ripped the boards into 2”x5/8” strips and glued them into a 5/8” x6” piece. I also ripped 2”x 1-1/8 strips and glued them into a 1 1/8x 4” piece. This produces something close to a quarter sawn look.

I then planned the test pieces to ½” thick using a jig on my planner to allow for the 1” bull nose overhang. Finally I routed the bull nose and ripped the two test tread cover pieces to their final width.


Concern/Problem
My main concern is wood expansion/contraction as well as warping of the tread cover. I understand that Option 2 would be better in theory however it produces a quarter sawn look with 4 glue joints. We much prefer the face sawn look of option one with just one glue joint.

Questions


If you have resurfaced a set of stairs and have some learnings to share! Please do.
Does my approach seem right or am I out to lunch on this. Once I cut the bull noses off I am committed to this project.
What are your thoughts on expansion for option 1 and 2?
What thickness would you make the tread cover? Is ½” a good thickness. Obviously I want to minimize the weight I add to the existing stair structure. At the same time I need sufficient thickness to create good solid glue joints and to be able to stand up to the foot traffic.
How would you fasten the treads? Is expansion an issue or should I just use lots of glue and finish nails?
Other thoughts and suggestions


Many thanks

Ben

[Richard Wolf]

It seems like you have this project well figured out. Resurfacing stairs is a problem because of the first and last step rise change, but in your case it seems like it will be an improvement. I recommend using plenty of construction adhesive, like PL Subfloor. Don't be over concerned about the expansion and contraction, your new tread covers should move with your old treads. My only real concern is that the bullnose will be your weakest link in the stairs and prone to cracking off under load of people walking on the front of each tread. You must make sure that you support the bullnose with the riser under it and also use cove molding under the tread bullnose which will help to support this weak transisition.
You will have to clean the paint off the treads to insure good glue contact.
If you need any help, just ask.

Richard

[Jack Wilson50]

Take a look at this site, it might help.

http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/hardwoodinstaller/stairs.htm

Don't worry to much about expanison, I did mine about three years ago and have had no problems. I used contruction adhesive and no nails. You have to be patient though. The treads tend to move around until the glue sets up, so you can not put any weight on them. One option I did not think of, was to put screws up from underneath if you can get to the bottom side of the staircase. After I was finished and walked down to the unfinished basement on day, I had one of those moments. You know wow I could have had a V8.

Good luck.

Jack

[Russ Boyd]

Be sure to check out the instructions from the lead Jack gave you. You will notice that the riser was installed first. If you keep it flush with the top of the existing tread above it, you'll have the support necessary for the new tread. This method will also alleviate the unsightly line you WILL end up with if the riser is applied after the tread. This way also allows you to rip all (or most) of your risers the same width (height, if you prefer), as the new tread will be butted tightly to the riser above it. Good luck, Nice project. Russ

[Mark Boyette]

I have a similar project with brick stairs going to basment (1809 home). The treads are too narrow... around 8". While finishing the basement I took a spill with a 4x8 of drywall in my hand.. not pretty.
I want extend the treads to 10" or 10 1/2". I really want to go 11 but also don't want too much overhang (weak). I was thinking oak plywood with a 3/4" bullnose solid oak edge. Wife wants to keep the brick risers in the back so I can't come out too far otherwise I'd make oak risers also. Thought ply would be stronger since I"m hanging over 1 1/2" to 2" inches.
For securing htem down I was thinking PL400 with tapcons and then oak plugs over the screws. any other thoughts on securing?
good info already here.. any thoughts on this one?
Bejinmin I hope you dont' mind me piggybacking on your post :)
Mark.

[Russ Boyd]

Mark, Your problem won't be completely solved by just extending the tread because you will be creating a toe-catching lip if you follow me. Also, the practical tread area will remain at 8" because you are adding to each tread, not just one. In other words, from nose to nose of each tread will remain at 8". Your Idea will help with the "feeling" you get walking up the treads but no down. Do a mock up if possible and you will understand what I mean. IF you go more than 1-1/4", I would apply a small support under the overhang onto the riser to help support the nosing. Hope this helps and is not to confusing. (I know what I mean...LOL) Russ

[Mark Boyette]

Good point but wouldn't be the same if there were no riser? like an open stair? Got me thinking a bit more now, I'm not sure either.
Mock up is a good idea.. I may try that.
this might help me win the struggle with my wife. I'd rather install a oak riser and hold it out a bit. She just reall wants the 200 year old brick visible if possible.
thanks for the input...:)
Mark.

[Benjimin Young]

Wow, as usual, great ideas from the group. Thanks to all!!!

Richard, removing the paint is something I was hoping to avoid (60+ years & 7 coats of nice lead). Its the main reason I want to resurface. I had not thought about the glue adhesion part so it looks like this project will be a lot more work with full head gear protection and sealing off the staircase. I agree about the weakest point at the bullnose and was wondering if 1/2 " surface thickness is enough meat to support a 1" bullnose (1/2" R) projecting 3/4" if it is a tight rabbit over the riser. Would wood glue between at the top edge of the riser and the underside of the rabbit help?

Jack, great link, it was worth viewing. I checked my treads for square and each one runs out so I will have to scribe each end of each tread, darn, more work. I do not have access from under the stairs so I'll either rely on the adhesive or use finish nails.

Russ, thanks for pointing out the riser first. I will be doing each step in sequence from the bottom so each riser will cover the lower tread mistakes and still be under the rabbited bullnose of the tread above.

Mark, sounds like your project is a bit different than mine with different challenges. Good luck.

I'll be sure to give updates as the job progresses. First change to my plan, I have enough oak in my stock pile so I'm switching to oak to match the balusters upstairs. It will also be easier to find oak veneer ply for the risers and tread resurface.

[Chris Konikowski]

I did a similar project with my stairs. I had the turn and two more stairs as well. They came out too far and got in the way of my pool table, so I took the platform and turn and two stairs out, came straight down and have the bottom two exposed. I think it turned out pretty nice and the room added to the area was dramatic! No more banging the cue against the stair rail!!!

[Benjimin Young]

I did a similar project with my stairs. I had the turn and two more stairs as well. They came out too far and got in the way of my pool table, so I took the platform and turn and two stairs out, came straight down and have the bottom two exposed. I think it turned out pretty nice and the room added to the area was dramatic! No more banging the cue against the stair rail!!!

Chris, what was the thickness of the material you covered the tread with?

[Kevin Stricker]

I re-did my stairs last year....major PIA. I tried cutting off the existing bullnose, but was not happy with the results. I ended up removing all the treads and rebuilding everything. If those stairs are as old as they look the treads might not be to hard to remove....just a thought.
I would recommend using Polyethylene(PE) adhesive VS typical sub floor adhesive. It maintains strength even with gaps, and is flexible.

[Chris Konikowski]

Chris, what was the thickness of the material you covered the tread with?

10mm. ;)
It is making me type more. It said my message was too short...:rolleyes:

[M Toupin]

I think I'd listen to Richard, he's done a few stairs....:rolleyes:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=69608

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=88403

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=81785

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=34025

Mike

[Thomas Bank]

Is there a reason that you aren't considering removing the treads and risers and starting fresh? As others have mentioned, you're going to have some issues with the change in riser height with the addition of a covering and any bullnose is going to be weak link. You're not preserving the original treads and paint grade fir isn't exactly anything special - plus you mention the lead paint issue. To me it seems easier to replace than go to all the extra trouble of recovering.

[James Hart]

I just finished a project identical to the one you're working on. Here's a couple of pics. There's a thread on the festool owners group site with detailed pictures of jigs for the curved stairs and stuff. It's called oak/wenge stairs or something to that effect.

[Benjimin Young]

Hi Richard, just a quick update on my stair project. I finally got the paint off, have milled all the wood into suitable treads (opted for 2” slices, rotated 90 degrees and glue-up method which is looking real nice) and am now rough cutting them to size. I thought you might get a chuckle out of how long this “small” stair project is taking this amateur. But, I am learning a lot and having fun. Thanks for the great advise and I will post pictures when I get it done.



It seems like you have this project well figured out. Resurfacing stairs is a problem because of the first and last step rise change, but in your case it seems like it will be an improvement. I recommend using plenty of construction adhesive, like PL Subfloor. Don't be over concerned about the expansion and contraction, your new tread covers should move with your old treads. My only real concern is that the bullnose will be your weakest link in the stairs and prone to cracking off under load of people walking on the front of each tread. You must make sure that you support the bullnose with the riser under it and also use cove molding under the tread bullnose which will help to support this weak transisition.
You will have to clean the paint off the treads to insure good glue contact.
If you need any help, just ask.

Richard

[Richard Wolf]

Keep at it, you will get it done. Often working on your own projects takes a lot longer than when you are getting paid.
I am still working on my staircase in my house, and I have lived here for 12 years, don't ask. It's the old shoemakers story.

Richard

[Neal Clayton]

I have a similar project with brick stairs going to basment (1809 home). The treads are too narrow... around 8". While finishing the basement I took a spill with a 4x8 of drywall in my hand.. not pretty.
I want extend the treads to 10" or 10 1/2". I really want to go 11 but also don't want too much overhang (weak). I was thinking oak plywood with a 3/4" bullnose solid oak edge. Wife wants to keep the brick risers in the back so I can't come out too far otherwise I'd make oak risers also. Thought ply would be stronger since I"m hanging over 1 1/2" to 2" inches.
For securing htem down I was thinking PL400 with tapcons and then oak plugs over the screws. any other thoughts on securing?
good info already here.. any thoughts on this one?
Bejinmin I hope you dont' mind me piggybacking on your post :)
Mark.

in addition, you have moisture issues to deal with whenever you place wood on top of masonry, especially going down into a basement.

google "rising damp" you'll turn up plenty of info.

[Benjimin Young]

Richard or anyone?

I finally have the steps milled and just finised routing the 1/2" R (1 " D) bullnose on the tread "caps" using my router table, except for one. The last one has a curve at one end and that is my problem. My bit does not have a bearing and I do not have a guide that would fit a bit this big. How do I bullnose the curved section?

[Richard Wolf]

I hate to give you the answer you don't want to hear, but go buy a router bit with a bearing. I use a 9/16" R, and hold it under the base plate a little.

Richard

[Benjimin Young]

Stair resurfacing project is finally completed.
Now it really did not take 8+ years of effort, I had to shelve the project for a while to work on other high priority house projects, but it's done now. Thanks for all the advise, special thanks to Richard !!h
Here is a story board of pictures. Enjoy.


357037357038357039357040357041357042357043

[Bill Graham]

That's a very nice job, they look great!

Thanks for the update.

Best,
BG

[Victor Robinson]

Wow, what a great job, and such a timely bump for me as I'm starting exactly the same kind of project (actually still in the debating stages of saving vs replacing). Your success suggests it may just be worth the effort of cutting off the bullnoses and refacing.

[Jim Dwight]

I think they look great too!

For anybody considering this project, I will add that I did it once with thin, 3/8 thick, flooring + a 1 inch nosing piece. The softwood treads were covered with the flooring (glued and nailed down) and the nosing added. It was held in place with construction adhesive, 3 large finish nails, and the cove molding underneath. None came loose. The joints in the flooring were clearly visible but the hallway the stairs ended at was finished in the same flooring so it fit in.