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Peter Boyford
01-16-2009, 6:53 PM
I recently had a costumer who wanted me to engrave some names in silverware for use as birth presents. I warned the costumer that there MIGHT occur mishaps, especially when engraving so many different types of objects. I usually ask the costumer for 10% more objects that needed in order to compensate for mishaps.

In all there were 16 parts - 10 different - and 3 mishaps occured, unfortunately. One of them was a simple human error: I engraved on the wrong side of a fork. This happens and I offered the costumer that I could engrave on both sides on that entire set, so it would not look like an error.

Two other misengravings happened: one fork had a very steep slope from end to end, and the engraving head had pushed the fork during engraving, even though I had semi-checked for this before starting. The next engraving was hence initiated with this wrong offset and got 2 small dots before I could stop the machine.

All other engravings were perfect.

Now the costumer complains, even though I have not taken any money for the failed pieces. She wants me to replace her expensive silverware because, as she said, "You have ruined it".

Also it seems now that she's beginning to "build a case" as she looks for more faults, which she'd probably would not have done, had all 16 pieces been OK. For example, she thinks that the engraving is generally uneven (I know they are not!).

How would you handle this costumer?

EDIT: Oh, and she also said that she understood the 10% failure margin as per the whole job - even though it doesn't take long to figure out, that if I should misengrave a fork, I can't just replace it by a knife... It's 10% per different part!

Probably just needed to get some air - thanks for that :) Still would like to hear your comments though.

Joe Chritz
01-16-2009, 7:24 PM
If the error is something from the material that is beyond control, say like grain of wood, then that is the nature of the beast and it is just what it is.

Errors on my part would be replaced at my cost. Stuff happens and the bad advertising isn't worth the expense of a couple pieces.

All three of those shouldn't have happened and in my opinion should be replaced. A signed waiver would help you in a situation like this. To say it again, stuff happens we just have to fix it when it does.

A good example is a CNC project where I was cutting some ovals. I didn't clamp one well enough and chunked it up. Since I didn't have any birdseye maple handy I hopped in the truck and drove the 20 miles to the supplier got a BF and made a new one.

I dont' engrave as a business but ultimately it is all the same, the customer expects something, we expect something. The goal is to reach common ground, hopefully before any work is done.

Probably not the answer you were looking for but you did ask. Hope it works out for ya.

Joe

Dee Gallo
01-16-2009, 8:41 PM
My business is 100% custom work on one-of-a-kind collectible antiques. It is essential to have everything set up perfectly every single time, leaving no room for mistakes of any kind. This is the work I chose, and I live with this pressure... and I benefit financially from it because nobody else is willing (or stupid enough) to do it.

In a previous life, I did custom calligraphy... try making a mistake in ink on someone's ancient family Bible.

I'm with Joe on this one, I feel none of these mistakes should have happened and your customer will be more trouble than it's worth if you don't make it right with her. As they say, "sometimes you eats the bear, sometimes the bear eats you". I'm sure you did not want these mistakes to happen, but they did.

You did not say how you engraved these pieces - is there any way to "repair" the damage? If they are really silver, a silversmith could buff out, fill and polish the metal. That might be cheaper than replacing them since real silverware can be very pricey.

Your 10% margin of error accounts for 1 or 2 pieces, so maybe a compromise with the customer: you replace 1 or 2 pieces, she goes away.

We all have days like that and eventually "something" will happen. After hundreds of engravings, you might have it down pat... it took me a year of practice to get to a point where I felt completely, infallibly competent doing one type of engraving/painting job. I really feel for you, because I know the feeling of doing your best and not being good enough no matter what you do. Some customers will never be satisfied, too, so please just get this lady out of your life and move on.

cheers, dee

Kenneth Hertzog
01-16-2009, 9:09 PM
I agree with what Dee said.
do what it takes to make her happy and move on.

And to answer your question I do guarentee my work 100%


ken

Rodne Gold
01-17-2009, 1:58 AM
You are considered an "expert" in your field , thus you have to guarantee and make good any mistake on your part within reason. Thats why we price according to the value of the item. The price we would charge to engrave cheap oriental stainless steel pens vs a Mont blanc are radically different.
We decline to do "experimental" jobs ...Ie if we forsee setup problems or trouble or we dont have a destuctive sample...we pass.
The problem is that when you have a hammer...you tend to see everything as a nail and there are jobs that are suited to other forms of marking other than a laser...but one tends to try and do it with the laser and that almost always ends up in tears.

Peter Boyford
01-17-2009, 3:54 AM
I see your points, all, and do agree to some extend. However, I'd probably need to add that I am a sign maker of trade. I offer laser engraving on materials, that I get from my own suppliers, and if a customer asks for e.g. 100 engraved aluminum signs, I supply 100 engraved aluminum signs. If I make mistakes during the operation in worst case lack material, I buy more material in order to supply the wanted quantum.

But when costumers want me to engrave/laser cut on their own materials I ask for 10% more in order to compensate. It is very rare that I engrave other than signs - and I don't advertise engraving on silverware on my website.

So in this case, I have stuck with my usual business terms and have informed the customer before engraving. My pricing was also comparable to "standard engraving" on sign board / alu / whatever.

I can see the difference, if I was advertising engraving on customer supplied stock.

Anyway - the engraving was performed on stainless steel using cermark. If there is any advise on how to "fix" this, I'll be listening.

Thanks for your replies so far :)

Mike Null
01-17-2009, 4:21 AM
At some point you have to say no to jobs which are risky or where it's not possible to replace the items.

One of my customers is a fairly high volume jewelry store. My agreement is that I replace at their cost anything I ruin. I also reserve the right to refuse jobs which would be high risk. (I don't do expensive wrist watches for example)

Yesterday I was asked to do a sterling bowl which another engraver had quoted $600 on. I declined because the risk was too high.

A customer should be able to expect competence but you should have some protection built into a sales/service agreement for yourself.

Stephen Beckham
01-17-2009, 6:55 AM
Peter was it stainless or silver - big difference and you've mentioned both?!?!?

Silver - I don't touch...

Stainless is a pain to clean the cermark off, it requires sanding up to about a 1200 grit paper then polishing with rouge and buffing wheel to get it back to stainless appearance...

I did a saber once and mispelled the name - customer admitted to his hand writting being the culprit - but none-the-less, it was wrong and needed to be repaired - took me six hours of sanding, well, about 30 mintues of sanding and about 5 and half polishing to get the saber back to par... As much as I may get chastised for saying this - I didn't charge anything to fix it. Even though the customer admited he had bad handwriting, shame on me for guessing when it was unclear.

Along the lines of everyone else - you need to make it right, but that's where I split from their comments. I understand we're experts and we are being paid by our customers etc... But there needs to be an understanding up front with odd shaped, customer provided objects - they need to know the world isn't perfect. I explain and make an agreement with my customers on these type situations.

I explain that I will do my humanly best, but if the marking fails (specially when dealing with cermark) what they would expect compensations to be. If they aren't willing to accept the risks involved and want total compensation - I refuse the job. If they accept the experimental terms, I move forward.

Dee - got's lot of respect for you - I couldn't handle the stress....

Rodne Gold
01-17-2009, 7:00 AM
You can buff out the cermark mark , either start with a satinising brush (like a scotchpad brush) on the buff wheel , or use a very fine sandpaper and then use a tripoli paste or bar on a HARD mop (not the soft flappy ones) to polish and then a softer floppy mop with a fine tripoli to finish to a high polish.
You "MIGHT" see a sort of indentation where the original mark was , but it will be very faint or barely visible.
The trick is to use the hard mop for the polishing after the satinizing or fine sandpaper..a soft mop wheel wont cut it.

Scott Shepherd
01-17-2009, 8:06 AM
I agree with the others. It's your baby and you need to make it right. If it were me, I'd take them to a professional jeweler and have them polish them and make them like new. I'd then give them back to her unmarked and consider the lesson learned. Next time I was asked, I'd either refuse or I'd have a written agreement signed by them with all your terms and conditions.

Right now you have none of that, so you are 100% liable for the damages (in my opinion).

Conrad Fiore
01-17-2009, 9:13 AM
Peter,
40 years ago I had a P.A. from one of my really big customers ask me to engrave a silver tray for him. I figured that I couldn't refuse because of the work he sent me. Well, I slipped on the engraving and ruined the tray. He never new that happened because I went out and bought him a new one and engraved it up and turned it over to him with a smiling face. To this day, I tell that story when I turn down any similar job. We do 99% commercial work, and as with you, we in most instances supply the raw materials. For jobs where the customer supplies parts to be marked, they usually supply a few extra. On really complex parts that are supplied in only the quantity that is required, we take extra care, say a few prayers and chew a couple of TUMS before starting. In the event we do slip or make a mistake, we offer to pay for any repair or re-machining that is necessary to make the part right. I would suggest that you do what is necessary to make your customer happy and chalk this one up to experience.

John Barton
01-17-2009, 9:28 AM
I see your points, all, and do agree to some extend. However, I'd probably need to add that I am a sign maker of trade. I offer laser engraving on materials, that I get from my own suppliers, and if a customer asks for e.g. 100 engraved aluminum signs, I supply 100 engraved aluminum signs. If I make mistakes during the operation in worst case lack material, I buy more material in order to supply the wanted quantum.

But when costumers want me to engrave/laser cut on their own materials I ask for 10% more in order to compensate. It is very rare that I engrave other than signs - and I don't advertise engraving on silverware on my website.

So in this case, I have stuck with my usual business terms and have informed the customer before engraving. My pricing was also comparable to "standard engraving" on sign board / alu / whatever.

I can see the difference, if I was advertising engraving on customer supplied stock.

Anyway - the engraving was performed on stainless steel using cermark. If there is any advise on how to "fix" this, I'll be listening.

Thanks for your replies so far :)

I engrave pool cues. I do the stainless joints on them. If I make a mistake then I generally can sand and polish the mark off as it's not really engraved and then I just do it over. On pool cues I can just spin it and get the sanding/polishing done fairly quickly. For silverware I'd say that you are probably looking at a lot more elbow grease.

As to the questions of guaranteeing the work. Yes you should. If you are going to take someone's expensive items and mark them up then you are responsible when it gets messed up inside your machine. That's why I don't do any pool cues that I don't sell anymore.

I have had to replace items to the tune of $2500 due to errors on my part - misspelling a name, wrong focus depth, engraving in wrong location, and so on. Not very healthy when your revenue is only $10,000 for the week and your nut to do the show is already $5000.

So now I engrave on stock that I own and the rare times I engrave on other people's things it is A. something I know I can do with relative ease, and B. something where I can work out all the issues before I let the laser burn their stuff. I am fairly obsessive about dry runs now.

David Darnell
01-17-2009, 12:14 PM
My $.02 worth (worth exactly that)

This is just based on having been in business- not laser engraving, btw

1. Make absolutely sure you know what the customer wants & expects before you start. If you see any potential problem areas- let them know ASAP. I've found that if you keep the customer informed- they tend to be more understanding.

2 If you have any doubts to your ability to do a job- try doing it first with a cheaper "substitute". For example, I once had to build a polished stainless steel exhaust system for a show quality 62 Vette (FYI, stainless steel exhaust pipe was about 10X higher than regular steel). So I made a system first using the regular steel (and made my mistakes for 1/10 the cost). In this case you might have been able to find a comparable forks, etc at Wal-Mart and used them to figure out what you needed

3. If you do out and out screw up a customers item, either try and fix it, or replace it.

Mark Winlund
01-17-2009, 2:46 PM
This is a really common problem in engraving. Risk had better be accompanied by an appropriate reward. Just say no if the risk is too great.

Always, always, always do a dry run on an expensive or irreplaceable item. For lasers, this means masking tape first... burn the tape, check for errors, remove tape, do item.

Always warn the customer that mistakes happen, and THEY are going to assume the risk. Usually they wont accept this, then suggest they take it to your competitor. Better to have them take the beating from an irate customer than you!

Build your business with easily available engravable items.

Many times, when doing "trinket work" (one off items brought in by individuals) I will charge much more to engrave it than it is worth to buy. It is the engraving itself that adds value to the item. A cheap set of wine glasses engraved for a wedding become a family heirloom instantly.

Mark

Martin Boekers
01-17-2009, 2:58 PM
Things are great when everything goes right.

Reputations are earned on how it's handle when things go wrong.


Marty

Bill Cunningham
01-17-2009, 10:02 PM
Some of my basic rules are..
*On hand written information.. If it's more than a single name written clearly on a piece of paper, I tell them to email it to me.. Particularly with name lists for badges and special sign information. I can then cut and paste, and not worry about typos (mine anyway) and NEVER second guess the spelling of a name (you will always be wrong). Do it exactly as sent..

*If it's a 'one off' and expensive, like others say, I weigh the risks and turn it down if I'm not comfortable with either the job, or the customer.

If it's worth a lot of money to replace, then it's worth a lot of money to engrave, etch, or mark. Price accordingly. If It's possible to do it, but will take a LOT of setup time, I will usually fire off a wild number. If accepted, I take on the challenge and do the job. But most times, that number drains the colour from their faces..;)

So far, I've been careful/lucky and have only screwed up my own stuff..

Richard Rumancik
01-18-2009, 8:46 PM
Peter - If the items are stainless then it should be possible to polish the marks out. Others have suggested abrasive paper and polishing materials. I have had success with very fine abrasive paper (you can get 2000 grit for autobody work.) I use it wet. Makes a black dirty mess but it has saved me a few times. If you need a mirror finish you will need to polish further; I have never needed to achieve a mirror finish. 3M makes some polishing materials I believe. Maybe talk to someone in your area that makes custom stainless sheet metal products (like restaurant supply companies). They cut/weld etc and need to be able to polish their poducts at the end. They may be able to give you advice on materials that will work. I don't expect that jewelers work with stainless that much. Stainless is much harder than most jewelry metals.

James Stokes
01-19-2009, 12:11 AM
I have polished out stainless, silver and pewter. I start with 1000 grit wet or dry sand paper and work up to 4000 grit then polish that out with metal polish. I takes a few minutes to do but I would rather spend a little time instead of my money.

Dave Johnson29
01-19-2009, 9:00 AM
Here's a small set for an electric drill.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98710

As others have suggested, start with very fine wet-dry paper then drag out the electric drill.

John Barton
01-19-2009, 1:20 PM
So here is the story of the $2000 pool cue mistakes. First job of the morning. I am at a national event doing engraving on people's pool cues. The first guy of the day comes up and fills out the sheet and I get right on it. He walks away. I get it all set up and burn it - comes out beautiful. He comes back and I proudly hand him his cues. He says great, look great. Then about five minutes later he comes back and says I spelled his name wrong. Sure enough I put a u where there should have been an a. His handwriting and I read it wrong. Just completely spaced my normal procedure of double checking everything. Thought I was too cool for school.

So then we tried to "fix it" and you all know what that's like. At the end of the day I gave him about $3000 worth of pool cues which were not the equivalent of what I screwed up and considered myself lucky that he accepted that.

So the end of this story is that for the rest of the day and forever thereafter I made everyone print in CLEAR letters and I underlined each one as I typed it. Now fast forward 9 hours later and I have a customer who is standing there while I do his order. I have a huge flatscreen tv propped on the back of our new ULS laser so everyone can see what is going to be done. I get it all ready and invite the customer to make sure that everything is spelled right - I have already done my triple check. He gives the green light and away we go.

Get it out clean it up - throw in some paint and hand it to him. He looks at it for a minute and says I spelled his name wrong. I said no I didn't and that if it's wrong then he spelled it wrong.

Sure enough, the guy spelled his own name wrong. Man was he embarrased. He paid me another $25 to engrave over it and do a reverse engraving where his name stood up. I did a light pattern over the surface to oblierate the old name. It actually came out pretty cool.

There was NO WAY though that I was misspelling anyone else's name that day.

:-)

R. A. Mitchell
01-19-2009, 1:24 PM
I started laser engraving to complement my wife's hand engraving. Almost everything she does is unique. She quotes jobs based on what she believes it will take to produce a perfect job. If she's wrong, she eats the difference. She has passed on many jobs where people have balked at the price, but she's never had a dissatisfied customer. That makes for lean living up front, but over time it's a sterling reputation that can't be bought.

I have approached laser engraving the same way. I'm relatively new and inexperienced, so I either don't take jobs that I can't handle, or I know going in that there's a good chance I'll do something at a loss. If I don't have a back-up plan, I won't take the job. I charge a reasonable price, but I believe my reputation is much more important in the long run than my margin on a single job. Confidence and competence are built with experience, and I'll only get an opportunity to gain experience if others trust me.

My belief is that if you don't bite off more than you can chew, then you won't choke. If you do, then you need to clean up your mess and learn from the experience.

Rodne Gold
01-19-2009, 1:28 PM
My attitude is whatever mess up you make good even if its partly the customers fault.
The positive PR more than compensates and you can just write it off to "school fees"

Tim Bateson
01-19-2009, 1:43 PM
Last year I did 10 marble plaques for a union group. After they received the plaques, they realized they had made a typo in the script. I ate the cost of new marble and the shipping to produce new plaques. I now get all of their business. A small price to pay for a happy and loyal customer.

Tim Bateson
01-19-2009, 1:46 PM
To prevent this or at least to reduce the chances, I now email a mock-up or a sample of all work to the customers prior to touching the laser.

Dee Gallo
01-19-2009, 3:07 PM
To prevent this or at least to reduce the chances, I now email a mock-up or a sample of all work to the customers prior to touching the laser.

After many years of pre-press work for printing, I learned to double check the customer's spelling, grammar, suggest better phrasing and layout, AND show a "dummy" to them before doing any work - saves a lot of time and work, since they almost always have to change something. This is part of your job, as the professional "printer" so there are no mistakes to eat (or less, anyway). A few minute's prep saves you hours of work. I find customers appreciate the grilling I give them to nail down details, as it actually helps them to firm up their ideas and appreciate what goes into the work I do.

Rodne's comment about "partly the customer's fault" is right on - if they knew what they were doing, they would not need us! You should expect them to make "mistakes" since they don't even know what the questions are.

- another two cents from my perspective (WIAETH)

Linda Butterfield
01-20-2009, 12:35 AM
I'm fairly new to laser engraving (about 9 months) and if a customer comes to me with their own materials, if I haven't worked with that substrate before, I'll usually turn the job down, explaining that I don't have the experience right now with that type of material. I will let them know what materials I am comfortable with and if they are ever in the market for something similar, to please keep me in mind. I do like to be upfront with the customer.

I do have a customer that makes gift baskets and from time to time brings me items made of wood or glass to engrave. From day one I explained that I would need an extra of whatever it is to use as a Test. If the first try comes out correctly, which in most cases it has, then she has an extra blank for a future order. I'll make a template and always save the files so next time all I have to do is change the text.

As my business grows, I definately will have some sort of waiver made up for products that I don't supply.

Tim Bateson
01-20-2009, 9:39 AM
Why would you need a waiver? You either except the job or you don't. If you do, then you should be responsible for the item. Either fixing or replacing it.
Someone here on the Creek once mentioned they NEVER except jobs that called for engraving an irreplaceable item or family heirloom. I think that was great advice and have since turned down a couple of those types of requests. My reputation for quality is more important and more valuable than one or two sales.

Just my $0.02 or $0.00001 when adjusted for inflation.:rolleyes: