Norm

[Jason White]

Anybody watching the old Norm reruns?

I saw the "Turkey Table" tonight. Man, that's a beautiful piece. A bit beyond my skill level, though.

[Brian Effinger]

Yup, I am. I saw that episode last Saturday, and I'm looking forward to the project this Saturday. Most of these I haven't seen because the local PBS & DIY don't re-run the older ones (and now it seems it is completely off of DIY). It is funny to see Norm with out the gray in his hair. :)

[Greg Hines, MD]

I DVR every episode, and skip through them before I delete them. I do have a lot of his workshop shows on it, and love to see how he accessorizes his shop. The new season hasn't showed up in Nashville PBS yet.

Doc

[Dan Friedrichs]

I saw a few of the newest season - the revised Adirondack chair, and the outdoor loveseat. I like how he made the loveseat out of teak, and even mentioned that it's $50/bf. Wonder what his total cost for that was...

On a somewhat unrelated note, has anyone read "Norm Abram's New House"? It's a little older and I think out of print, but I just finished reading it and thought it was pretty good.

[Brian Effinger]

On a somewhat unrelated note, has anyone read "Norm Abram's New House"? It's a little older and I think out of print, but I just finished reading it and thought it was pretty good.

I actually got my hands on a new copy recently because of a recommendation I saw here on SC. I haven't had a chance to start it, but it is on my bedside table, and I should get to it in the next few weeks.

[Mike Heidrick]

I DVR every episode.


+1 Same Here!

[Clifford Mescher]

Here, too...Seven posts without a Norm basher. Clifford.

[Chuck Tringo]

I call those people "haters" Clif :p usually jealous of someone more successful than they are when they percieve themselves to be better craftsman than the individual. It happens in most professions, and the people who do it usually lose a bit of credibility in my eyes. My wife is very into art and she says there are a lot of "artists" who bash Thomas Kinkaid, saying hes not that good of an artist....which is why I figure that I never heard of this moron and have seen Kinkaid's work on nearly every medium possible. You may not prefer someones work, but there is usually a reason that they are successful, my 2 cents....


Here, too...Seven posts without a Norm basher. Clifford.

[Rod Sheridan]

I think Norm has done more to popularize our hobby than anyone I can think of.

I suspect that this popularisation of the hobby is responsible for many of the fine hand tools we now have ( LN, LV etc), and the availability of inexpensive machinery.

(General, PM etc were available, however the less expensive lines like Delta, Craftsman, Grizzly etc really expanded the number of hobby wood workers).

I think that Norm's timing was perfect, and that his personality was a big factor in his favour, he's the sort of presenter who can hold your attention during the show, and not make the process too "dry" to be entertaining.

The only problem I have with Norm, is that he's become a religion to some people, which causes problems whenever you want to discuss not so positive attributes of his show. At that point, whether your comments are valid or not, you get accused of "Norm bashing".

Too bad, because we learn more by discussing issues than not discussing them.

Regards, Rod.

[Jerome Hanby]

On a somewhat unrelated note, has anyone read "Norm Abram's New House"? It's a little older and I think out of print, but I just finished reading it and thought it was pretty good.

I got it from the library a few months ago (yes I returned it :D). It was a pretty good read. I think if I had to deal with all the red tape that area of the country generates, I'd have to kill somebody!

I've been a little surprised by how pleasant his writing is. I also read "Measure Twice, Cut Once" also a good read.

[Jerome Hanby]

I call those people "haters" Clif :p usually jealous of someone more successful than they are when they percieve themselves to be better craftsman than the individual. It happens in most professions, and the people who do it usually lose a bit of credibility in my eyes. My wife is very into art and she says there are a lot of "artists" who bash Thomas Kinkaid, saying hes not that good of an artist....which is why I figure that I never heard of this moron and have seen Kinkaid's work on nearly every medium possible. You may not prefer someones work, but there is usually a reason that they are successful, my 2 cents....

What I've always liked about Norm is that, with the exception of that Time Saver sander, I've always felt that he was using a piece of equipment that I could have in my shop. And I love the old shows when he does something on a Shopsmith! I always get the feeling that with a little work or a little saving, I could do that or have that. Unlike David Marks and Wood Works. He'll be going along and then roll out some gadget that I'll never have in my shop and even if he uses some more mundane tool, he'll be doing something with it I'll never be able to emulate. Kind of funny, every blue moon Norm will do something, like carving a chair arm, that will make me say "I'll never be able to manage that", while every blue moon David will do something and I think "I might be able to manage that" :eek:

[Bill White]

Respect his craft, style, and niche, but I ain't runnin to the woods with an axe everytime I need a chair.
Norm has been good for our craft. How many of us have actua1lly learned something from his shows? I have.
Bill

[Clifford Mescher]

Respect his craft, style, and niche, but I ain't runnin to the woods with an axe everytime I need a chair.
Norm has been good for our craft. How many of us have actua1lly learned something from his shows? I have.
Bill
That made me chuckle. Clifford.

[Brian Effinger]

What I've always liked about Norm is that, with the exception of that Time Saver sander, I've always felt that he was using a piece of equipment that I could have in my shop.

It is interesting watching those older shows and seeing the equipment he had at that time - or the lack there of. No large sander in those episodes.

[Rod Sheridan]

It is interesting watching those older shows and seeing the equipment he had at that time - or the lack there of. No large sander in those episodes.


That explains it, last week I saw one of the episodes and he had a benchtop Delta planer instead of a stationary one, must have been an early episode?

Regards, Rod.

[Brian Effinger]

^ In the Turkey Table episode? Yeah, I noticed that too. I think his table saw is different now too. That one was a right tilt, & I'm pretty sure he's got a left tilt now.

[Jim Becker]

On a somewhat unrelated note, has anyone read "Norm Abram's New House"? It's a little older and I think out of print, but I just finished reading it and thought it was pretty good.

Yup...an enjoyable read. And for us, learning that they are "bird people" was a fun and interesting fact.

[Clifford Mescher]

The title to this thread is Norm. Is it written in the rules somewhere that we must somehow turn a thread into a Norm ...Marks comparison? Talk about predicable. Clifford.

[Bill Keehn]

By the way, "Measure Twice, Cut Once".. Jim Tolpin has a book by that name. Who used it first I wonder? I read Jim's book. Pretty good I thought. How does it compare to Norm's?

[Wilbur Pan]

I think Norm has done more to popularize our hobby than anyone I can think of.

I'll attest to that. I have to admit that I use almost none of the techniques that Norm does. I don't use brads or have a pin nailer, I don't have a *gasp* tablesaw, I don't have a mortiser, and I don't recall Norm ever using Japanese tools. But I have a hard time figuring out how I would have gotten interested in woodworking if I didn't spend many Saturday afternoons watching New Yankee Workshop.

[David Keller NC]

"The title to this thread is Norm. Is it written in the rules somewhere that we must somehow turn a thread into a Norm ...Marks comparison? Talk about predicable."

OK, I'll bite. I tape and watch every Norm episode. I upped my satellite sub to get "DIY", thinking I'd like Woodworks. I can't stand to watch even one episode after my first couple. The idiotic studio "heavy metal" background music, the really, really, really stupid "sell" segment where they play musak and do "roll around" shots of the episode's completed project with soft lighting, and the really goofy cadence that Marks has to his monologue turns me off badly.

And, I should mention that I don't respect Norm's construction methods and was jumping around the room when he blasphemed a fine American antique by sticking an el cheapo plastic quartz movement in it and called it a "reproduction" (The Dominay Clock episode). But that doesn't mean that I won't watch - it's very entertaining, and the man deserves credit for vastly increasing the awareness of the general public to woodworking. I just wish he'd give the pin nailer a rest. :rolleyes:

[Chris Padilla]

Shoot, I thought this thread was about...about...NORM!

[Clifford Mescher]

Shoot, I thought this thread was about...about...NORM!
They are both from the Boston area. Clifford.

[Karl Brogger]

Am I alone in thinking that Norm is a total hack?

[Gary Lange]

I for one enjoy watching the new Yankee Workshop even if they are repeats of some of the older shows. I haven't seen them so they are new to me and most likely others.

I believe as far as I am concerned Karl that you are alone. You can watch reruns of programs such as his and learn something each time because you may have missed it before or it brings it back into clearer picture and better understanding. We never stop learning and if you do you're dead.

[David Cramer]

With all due respect Karl, yes, you may be alone or at least in the minority.

A hack? If you're joking, please ignore my post. If you're not, me confused:confused:. Norm Abrams is far from being a hack, but that's just my opinion.

David

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Am I alone in thinking that Norm is a total hack?

Yep. Hacks don't make money very long. Norm has been doing what he does for what, 25 years now? Hacks make studio furniture that no one wants, then vanish into oblivion. Like it or not, Norm's legacy will live forever.

[James Hart]

Am I alone in thinking that Norm is a total hack?

I suspect he was trying to make Cliff turn purple.........

[Chris Padilla]

With all due respect Karl, yes, you may be alone or at least in the minority.

A hack? If you're joking, please ignore my post. If you're not, me confused:confused:. Norm Abrams is far from being a hack, but that's just my opinion.

David

I was thinking he meant NORM! from Cheers but I could be wrong.... :D

[Greg Hines, MD]

By the way, "Measure Twice, Cut Once".. Jim Tolpin has a book by that name. Who used it first I wonder? I read Jim's book. Pretty good I thought. How does it compare to Norm's?

Norms book is a good read. It gives some of his personal history, and is mostly a discussion of hand tools.

Doc

[David Cramer]

I apologize Karl and Chris. I was not trying to be rude in my response and had no idea that Karl was talking about Norm from Cheers. Sorry:).

Even if Karl was talking about "the" Norm (NYW), it's his opinion and he has every right to it.

But, if he "was" talking about NYW Norm, I still have to respectfully disagree. Please see the Highboy episode for proof. Hacks can't do that. I actually think Norm is underrated for what he does, not overrated. Yes, he's well known, but that's not what I mean. He's made some impressive projects over the years and they were far from easy. Just one man's opinion.

David

[Clifford Mescher]

Norm is not a hack. I never see him spill his beer. Clifford.

[Fred Voorhees]

Shoot, I thought this thread was about...about...NORM!

How's it going Norm? It's a dog eat dog world out there Coach......and I'm wearing Milk Bone underware.

[Dewayne Reding]

Am I alone in thinking that Norm is a total hack?

You take that back right now!

:)

[Brian Effinger]

Shoot, I thought this thread was about...about...NORM!
Chris - you've got a picture of my other Uncle Norm! :eek:
I have a friend who calls Nahm my flannel clad uncle and Norm my beer swilling uncle, who both taught me well. My wife even calls them my uncles now :D

[Brian Effinger]

Oh, and WOW did this thread digress fast. It went from a simple question about the new season of NYW to Nahm, and David Marks bashing. DM wasn't even mentioned in the OP.

[Karl Brogger]

Who was bashing? You guys need thicker skin.

No, I wasn't talking about the fat guy living at the end of the bar.

There is a HUGE difference in building cool projects, and doing a good job. Many times I see things that are a damning offense when they show an up close of a project. He is horrible with trim, more than once I've been disturbed at the quality of some things shown on the show. Besides, its TV. He's in the business of having a TV show, nothing more.

I agree that once in a great while I see something on either New Yankee Workshop, or This Old House that really is a good idea. The latest being I saw a really cool way to make casing and jambs. A dado is run though the casing and the jamb recesses into the casing a bit. That was a phenomenal idea for taking care of small differences in the width of jamb requirements to get the casing to lay flat. Beats the snot out of scribing! But these really great ideas are so few and far between that I can't remember the last thing that I picked up that I thought was actually usefull.

[Stephen Edwards]

He's in the business of having a TV show, nothing more.

As the OP stated, you don't have a successful, long running "how to" TV show by being a hack. I've often wondered how many people have been inspired to become woodworkers by watching Norm's shows and reading his articles, etc. I would imagine that it's a lot of folks!

The really cool thing about TV, which I rarely watch anymore, is that you can always change the channel or turn it off.

Best Regards,

[Greg Cuetara]

Shoot, I thought this thread was about...about...NORM!

Chris that is Nahm.

Karl. I will have to reitterate what another poster said. You may agree with what he does on NYW or you may build completely differently but he does get people motivated. Do you have a great idea every single week which is unique and you present to the forum? I don't think anyone does.

Quite frankly there are only so many ways to make a mortise and tenon. I may not have his ability or construct exactly as he does but I do enjoy watching him build projects.

I do not personally like wood works. I think David Marks is an excellent craftsman but i don't like his personality on the TV show. With that being said I have a few dozen wood works episodes on my DVR because I like to watch him construct projects. I pull up old woodworks and NYW episodes just to watch.

Anyone who can promote the hobby and make it easier for all to get involved in good in my book. There are people on this forum who are unbelievable craftsman and I see them doing the same thing.

[Ken Milhinch]

...... more than once I've been disturbed at the quality of some things shown on the show.

For example ??



...... Besides, its TV. He's in the business of having a TV show, nothing more.

Wrong. Norm was a woodworker long before the TV show came along, and I think if he was asked to choose between the two he would choose woodwork.

[Alan DuBoff]

I have only seen a couple of his shows, and don't hardly watch TV. In fact that reminds me that I need to get a box or the TV won't work next month...:rolleyes:

[Karl Brogger]

Wow Ken, hit a nerve? Other than trim I can't think of any other examples from a show I hardly watch. He is in the business of having a TV show, I don't care what he did prior, that is what he does now. He does not make a living out of that shop off of the show. I'm sorry I brought it up, but watch the show carefully, look for flaws, don't just swallow things hook line and sinker like the rest of the cattle.

[Ken Milhinch]

Karl,

Norm is obviously a carpenter, not a cabinet maker, and his work is not perfect, but I would be delighted if I could do as well as him. I believe he deserves respect for what seems to be a genuine desire to educate and assist hobby woodworkers to improve their skills. I know his show was the sole inspiration for me to return to woodworking after many years of other pastimes.

[Mark Patoka]

Back to the original question, no I haven't seen the new old reruns yet. Our local PBS station appears to be showing last years kitchen cabinet series again, so I'm seeing the old reruns.

Apparently our PBS station has a Create WETA channel that is showing the current rerun season but it's not available on Dish.

[Brian Effinger]

Oh, and WOW did this thread digress fast. It went from a simple question about the new season of NYW to Nahm, and David Marks bashing. DM wasn't even mentioned in the OP.
My point wasn't that there was bashing - everyone is entitled to their thoughts and opinions. My point was that this tread and the original simple question went completely off topic. Nowhere was it asked for anyones opinion of Nahm, just if anyone has seen the old shows that are being re-aired. And David Marks wasn't mentioned in either of the two lines of the OP.

As I said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and this is just mine.

[Clifford Mescher]

Wow Ken, hit a nerve? Other than trim I can't think of any other examples from a show I hardly watch. He is in the business of having a TV show, I don't care what he did prior, that is what he does now. He does not make a living out of that shop off of the show. I'm sorry I brought it up, but watch the show carefully, look for flaws, don't just swallow things hook line and sinker like the rest of the cattle.
You are correct, it is a TV show. It is a teaching show. Your profile says your a cabinet maker. Are you still learning? Would a gracious major league baseball player go to spring training and criticize the coaches? Clifford.

[Chris Padilla]

My point was that this tread and the original simple question went completely off topic. Nowhere was it asked for anyones opinion of Nahm, just if anyone has seen the old shows that are being re-aired. And David Marks wasn't mentioned in either of the two lines of the OP.

As I said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and this is just mine.

Welcome to internet forums, Brian! :) 'Tis the nature of the beast! :D

[Chuck Tringo]

Hence I go back to my last post....some people just like to hate on others because theyre jealous (oh, im better than him..) well, in ihis opinion, he might be, but thousands and thousands have never heard of most 'hacks' on the internet who bash Norm or anyone else for that matter, so its usually best to ignore such drivel.


You are correct, it is a TV show. It is a teaching show. Your profile says your a cabinet maker. Are you still learning? Would a gracious major league baseball player go to spring training and criticize the coaches? Clifford.

[Ron Conlon]

...don't just swallow things hook line and sinker like the rest of the cattle.

Like the balance in a painstakingly crafted wine, you have tempered the condescension in this remark with a remarkably funny mixed metaphor! That made my day.

[David Cramer]

First, for those who are talking about the contents of the OP initial question/post, most all posts go off into another direction, especially those where Norm's name is brought up (please do a search and you'll see that this is true more times than not).

Karl is surely a very keen woodworker and he obviously knows his stuff. But, with that said, that doesn't make Norm a hack. I have watched his show closely for many years and nothing that I've ever seen him do would give me a justified reason to call him a hack. I may be a hack:D, but Norm is certainly not.

As I already mentioned, Norm built the highboy in addition to many other well executed projects, including cutting dovetails by hand.

I am good friends with a finish carpenter who does work that is nothing short of incredible. Like me, he believes Norm is quite an accomplished woodworker. I did not say he was Sam Maloof, but Karl, how many are?

On that subject, I truly believe that Norm could make a fine sculptured rocking chair, if he was so inclined to do so. I also believe that the finished product would not garnish the word "hack" from anyone who would have the good fortune of seeing it.

I met him several years ago and he said the show was only suppose to be on for 4 years. But, because of its popularity, the show has continued on and is doing so today even though this year they are doing repeats of old episodes. Maybe some of the projects seem lackluster at times (not to me), but the guy has built well over 200 of them in 20 years. Personally, I feel fortunate to have seen a lot of them and learned many things along the way.

Friend, I believe you typed the word hack to hastily and didn't think it through. I am sure you're very good at what you do and obviously have some tricks of the trade that would make Norm say, "I like how you did that Karl", but that does not make Norm a hack.


David

[Porter Bassett]

you don't have a successful, long running "how to" TV show by being a hack.I completely disagree. There are tons of successful hacks out there. Success isn't a guarantee of anything else.

That said, I'm just a hobbiest, and a relatively new one at that. I watch the show and continue to learn quite a bit from it.

If I ever become good enough to be a hack like Norm, I'll be quite pleased with myself. :)

[Chris Padilla]

Norm gets projects built in 30 minutes...sometimes it takes him 60 minutes. The guy is a GOD!!

It takes me 30 minutes to figure out what pile of stuff I need to move where in order to begin working...then another 30 to locate the tools I need. :D

;)

[Charles Saunders]

I had a strong reaction to the use of the word “hack” in association with someone who has contributed so much to promote the woodworking business for both hobby enthusiasts and vocational people. Regardless of your perception of the techniques or craftsmanship on the program I think it’s difficult to overlook the positive influence that the NYW has had on our pastime. On a personal level I haven’t always lined up with the way everything is done but even as a long time viewer I rarely fail to take something useful away from each episode.

[Brian Kerley]

I've watched Norm for as long as it's been on, and I was only 8-9 at the time. Learned a lot from just watching that, as well as watching my dad ;-). I think his techniques are solid. Yeah, the designs may not be as modern as Marks', but watching Wood Works sometimes makes me cringe. I've learned a lot of really cool techniques from Wood Works that Norm never used, and the designs are definitely fresh, but the show just doesn't do it for me. Wood works seems to be more about the art/design of the piece, where as NYW was more about the construction and techniques.

[Chris Barnett]

There are both really smart fellers....instead of throwing them out, they keep the nails with the heads on the wrong end for the other side of the box. And they are both wanna be rocket scientists, but that job is taken by the guy with the beer.

[David Keller NC]

"Norm gets projects built in 30 minutes...sometimes it takes him 60 minutes. The guy is a GOD!!"

Ha! I suspect your post was tongue in cheek - it doesn't take too many episodes to realize that a bunch of things are left out. Nevertheless, his work ethic is impressive. As I understand it, he spends a week or two building a prototype and developing plans, then executes the plans and builds the second piece in 2-3 days. That's fast.

As to Norm being a hack, I've heard that expressed before, and not on 'net forums - by both highly accomplished individuals and those starting out in the local WW clubs. Being a hack, in one sense, doesn't mean that one's not successful, or even deserving of respect.

I think he gets this label from time to time because he comes from a finish carpentry background (his words, not mine), and it shows in his methods and the choices he makes about how pieces are constructed. In finish carpentry, there's a strong financial reason to "just get it done", and so long as something not visible is not done in a manner that will cause serious issues as the project ages, the exterior appearance is all that matters.

My issue with the NYW, and I know this view is shared, is that Norm often labels pieces "reproductions", and that's just not correct. One does not use a pin nailer to attach moldings to an 18th century antique, nor use plywood, bendable plywood, bent laminations, resorcinol glue, or polyurethane and correctly label a piece from the 18th century a reproduction. They are correctly labeled modern representations. While that may seem like parsing minutiae, this matters, both to customers that might purchase such a piece from a cabinetmaker brought up on NYW, and to those wishing to reproduce designs from the 18th and 19th centuries.

Particularly for newbies that don't have access to original pieces, they may well be confused about whether such things as bent laminations were appropriate to the period from methods shown on the show, though hopefully not the use of pneumatic pin nailers and polyurethane top coats.

The NYW workshop would be much improved were Norm to explain to his audience that the pieces constructed on the show are very much modern furniture, and that there's a continuum between 18th century forms made with particle board and plastic veneers in a big factory to those made by individuals such as Mack Headley in the Colonial Williamsburg cabinetshop, and they don't have equivalent value, either economically (what they'd sell for), or as an art object, or even as a piece of durable, usable furniture.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Wow Ken, hit a nerve? Other than trim I can't think of any other examples from a show I hardly watch. He is in the business of having a TV show, I don't care what he did prior, that is what he does now. He does not make a living out of that shop off of the show. I'm sorry I brought it up, but watch the show carefully, look for flaws, don't just swallow things hook line and sinker like the rest of the cattle.


Karl, sheep have a much stronger herd mentality, maybe a metaphor revision is in order?

[Clifford Mescher]

Norm gets projects built in 30 minutes...sometimes it takes him 60 minutes. The guy is a GOD!!

It takes me 30 minutes to figure out what pile of stuff I need to move where in order to begin working...then another 30 to locate the tools I need. :D

;)
Takes me 2 hours to stir up enough gumption to make the trip to my basement shop. Clifford.

[Brian Marks]

I would liken the reaction some people have to Norm to the way some feel about Emeril Lagasse, the famous chef. Emeril has extremely impressive credentials as a chef, yet his popularity and on-camera persona often lead people to dismiss him as a serious cook. There is no doubt that while both Norm and Emeril could produce more serious and "exacting" shows that would appeal to the purist, both have popularized their respective crafts and inspired many to get involved.

[Clifford Mescher]

I would liken the reaction some people have to Norm to the way some feel about Emeril Lagasse, the famous chef. Emeril has extremely impressive credentials as a chef, yet his popularity and on-camera persona often lead people to dismiss him as a serious cook. There is no doubt that while both Norm and Emeril could produce more serious and "exacting" shows that would appeal to the purist, both have popularized their respective crafts and inspired many to get involved.
Brian, that was very well said.Clifford.

[Herbert Wallace]

I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT A HACK IS.:confused:

[Dick Sylvan]

It takes me 30 minutes to figure out what pile of stuff I need to move where in order to begin working...then another 30 to locate the tools I need. :D

;)

You sound a lot like me!!!!!

[Rod Sheridan]

I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT A HACK IS.:confused:


It's a sidecar, as in motorcycle.........Rod.

[Gary Elore]

Now, I'll admit to not watching every episode of NYW but, in the ones I've seen, he usually refers to his project as "my version" or "our version" of such and such.

I don't always agree with everything Norm does (heck, the man hits his chisels with a regular hammer...makes me cringe every time he does it). That said, the man knows a heck of a lot more about working with wood than I ever will. Because he doesn't do it the way I do it doesn't make him wrong. I prefer to use his shows the same way I would with any other person who might be seen as a mentor. I pick his brain for all the good things he knows and if I feel I know a better way--I do it my way.

Gary

[Brian Effinger]

Welcome to internet forums, Brian! :) 'Tis the nature of the beast! :D
I know, I know. I must just be in a mood. ;) Just gets to me sometimes.
As for Nahm being a hack, I think Brian Marks, Gary and others said it best a few posts back.

[Peter Elliott]

Just got done reading the 5 pages about Norm...

Karl, I think you’re dead wrong. Show me where his trim techniques or better yet, what project was so wrong. No, you didn't hit a nerve. But I completely disagree. Fact remains what qualifies you to judge his techniques. It's your opinion but I disagree with about 99% of your remarks. But hey, welcome to the internet. One guys says something so it's got to be the truth.

I've probably seen just about every episode. Not a die hard fan in that regards but it's the only woodworking show available to me. My point is that anything woodworking related that comes in front of my eyes, I watch, listen and catalog it in my mind as a way to accomplish a task.

What Norm brings to the table is experience. Norm has an enormous wealth of knowledge. Not only by doing each project twice! But what he is exposed to. Think of all the companies and people he has come across over his years. No one could match that. No one has the opportunity that he does or has had in the past.

He's been swinging a hammer since his teenage years. He was also a successful contractor before the show. I feel that he just found his calling and I am glad for it.

So just watch, listen and take mental notes. If you don't like it, move on.. If he teaches you something, than be thankful.

Just be glad that there is a "Norm". Otherwise, there would be a lot less woodworking in this world.

Off the soap box.... Next!

[Brodie Brickey]

As a kid I started watching NYW with my Dad. Other than some of the hideous colors he used to paint some of the projects, it was educational, entertaining, and time with Dad. I learned a lot.

Admittedly NYW, at the time and to some degree still even now doesn't spend any time with hand tools. That did result in my not appreciating hand tools as sometimes a better way of getting the job done. I only started using cabinet scrapers 4 years ago, admittedly I primarily turn.

Most NYW projects I think are trapped in the past. They're mostly modernized reproductions. The old classics if you will. And none of them really fit with my house! Wood Works is more likely to bring a modern flair to the work as well as the repeated use of handtools. Marks isn't Roy by a long shot, but I think he does hit on a balance of power vs. hand tooling that most experienced woodworkers can appreciate. Yeah he does have some occaisonal weird tools, but by and large most are pretty common in a 'well stocked' shop.

Wood Works is more concerned with design, but I think the focus on form causes the viewer to think about their next project from the perspective of design. If you are creating your own designs, Wood Works probably helps you develop an eye to form as well as function.

I can't deny Norm looks a lot more comfortable on camera and the stilted phrasing Marks uses can be disconcerting, but there are a number of times during a Wood Works show I will say "I hadn't thought about handling that design/technical issue that way" that really doesn't come up with NYW. Marks also spends more time on grain direction, inlay, and lamination.

I certainly don't know everything, and I'm not as formally trained as I could be. I'll continue to watch NYW & Wood Works reruns. I'd love to see more 'organic' work from both providers. Although I don't go in for everything modern, Sam Maloof's work is a big influence. I'd also really like to see Norm do two things:


Continue producing new shows. I really hope this season's re-intro of re-runs doesn't continue, I'll watch them, but I'd really like to see some new designs.
Use that lathe of his for something other than table legs. Its got a 16" swing and is just screaming for a nice platter or segmented bowl to be turned with it. If he would just do a little stave or segmented work he could even use the table saw.

So few of the shows that are on DIY, HGTV, or elsewhere show anything approaching craftsmanship. The entire nation at this point has learned that you can't get a house for nothing. Its time the same education was imparted about the renovation & furniture creation from particle board, but that's a different rant.

[Karl Brogger]

You are correct, it is a TV show. It is a teaching show. Your profile says your a cabinet maker. Are you still learning? Would a gracious major league baseball player go to spring training and criticize the coaches? Clifford.


Ok guys, you are mixing all sorts of things here. Those who can't do teach? Right? Do you think that coach can hit a homer, or read a batter when pitching?

I don't like they way some things are done on the show, but thats neither here nor there. I don't like why some things are done on that show, once again, neither here nor there. I'm just talking quality, close up shots of alot of things don't look that great.

I'm glad, over joyed, thrilled even that New Yankee Workshop has been a borderline religious calling to the craft for so many, I'm not knocking that either.

As far as still learning, honestly not really. I learn a few things here and there, but those experiences are becoming pretty far apart, and I'm overjoyed when I learn something that will save me time. I've been doing this for eleven years now, it is really the only job I've known. I rose from the bottom of the barrel sanding doors, to running projects on my own at the first shop I worked at in about six months. When I used to have to train new guys at different places I'd tell them, its just wood, glue, and nails. Its not rocket science, the biggest thing that you have to remember is that no matter how well you did that, it can be done better, and faster. Good enough is a tough thing to be able to call too. Do I still make mistakes? You bet, but I don't let much slide in the way of "good enough". I'm an obsessive compulsive mentality through and through, and a burning need for a justifiably big ego. OCD is probably the best trait that you can have in this trade. There is nothing really all that hard in this, some elementary math skills, and an urge to be the best is all you really need.


Being that I picked a scab, I probably shouldn't have touched I am going to bow out of this topic before somebody gets the torches and pitchforks.

[Karl Brogger]

Fact remains what qualifies you to judge his techniques.



Ok, so I won't bow out just yet.

Busting my hump in a cabinet shop building some hideously expensive cabinets and furniture. Running an operating a cabinet shop since 2004, and always having customers that are awed. Working for places that build house's that start around $500 sq/ft and win architectual awards.

I'm plenty qualified, are you qualified to judge quality of work? I'm not talking design, there is some really ugly stuff that is well made, and also some really poorly built products that look pretty good.

Now I'm done:D

[Vince Shriver]

I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT A HACK IS.:confused:

Lots of definitions at www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com)

Type in "hack"

Also outdated slang for taxi cab, but oddly "norm" is not even mentioned.

[Wilbur Pan]

Those who can't do teach? Right?

As someone who teaches as part of my job, I can say that this is categorically wrong.

It may be that some who can't do, teach. It does not follow that all who teach can't do.

I can say that I have learned quite a bit about woodworking from watching Norm Abram, even if it is true that he is in the business of having a TV show. I have not learned a single thing about woodworking from Karl Brogger, cabinet maker.

[Clifford Mescher]

Ok guys, you are mixing all sorts of things here. Those who can't do teach? Right? Do you think that coach can hit a homer, or read a batter when pitching?

Can a coach hit a homer? I bet he did in the past and in the present he can give good advice to younger players who have somehow gotten himself in some bad mechanical habits at the plate. A coach might help a pitcher with his mechanics or tell him about some weakness the batter might have.
Anyways, a good coach or teacher probably has been there and is gracious and generous enough to want to share his knowledge.
A real smart guy once said, " The recipe for perpetual ignorance is to be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge." Clifford.

[mreza Salav]

Ok, so I won't bow out just yet.

Busting my hump in a cabinet shop building some hideously expensive cabinets and furniture. Running an operating a cabinet shop since 2004, and always having customers that are awed. Working for places that build house's that start around $500 sq/ft and win architectual awards.

I'm plenty qualified, are you qualified to judge quality of work? I'm not talking design, there is some really ugly stuff that is well made, and also some really poorly built products that look pretty good.

Now I'm done:D

Hah... I was right then to think this is from someone at the beginning not someone who has been in this for 30 or 40 years. Sam Maloof doesn't talk of himself like you do.

There is an old saying: there are 3 stages in knowledge and wisdom. In the first stage you think you know everything and there is not much left to learn from others; then in th next stage you become humble and stop showing off yourself. At the last stage you know that you really don't know that much you thought as there are *always* things to learn.

Seems you have a long way to go!

[Dewayne Reding]

The recipe for perpetual ignorance is to be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge." Clifford.

That quote is going on my office wall. Is that yours Clifford?

[Chuck Tringo]

so being OCD makes one a better woodworker than everyone who isnt? hmm, must be a lotta hacks round these parts ;)

incidentally, since high end cabinetry in houses was mentioned, apparently some people have never seen this old house, i think most of those homes are worth a lil more than $500 a square...

[Bill Brush]

I may have a unique perspective on Norm in that I work for a PBS affiliate and I know what his shows have done for PBS over the years. To put it simply his contributions are pretty much immeasurable.

As far as his skill as a woodworker goes, he can produce things that I have never even come close to and that's good enough for me. I think to a certain degree people may have misunderstood the purpose of the show. The point of NYW isn't to produce the perfect piece of furniture, lovingly recreated using the techniques of yesteryear. The point is to demonstrate how someone, with the right tools, can produce something that looks like a piece you would actually want to own. It's point is to make woodworking accessible to a newcomer and remove some of the mystery and fear of tools. The producers want Joe Woodworker to watch it and say "Hey I could do that!" Trust me, with his credentials (Mechanical engineering degree anyone?) he could produce pieces that would be truly masterpieces, but they couldn't put those on the show because it would run counter to the show's purpose.

As far as the show's popularity and Norm's reputation, I have to say that I have a lot of respect for Norm. It would not take much for brainpower for one of the big networks to come up with the idea of "Hey let's offer that guy at PBS working for peanuts a lot of money to come do the same thing for us, and then we'll own the rights to it!" I'm sure that's happened and yet Norm has stuck with WGBH for 30 years or so. I don't respect many people who make their living as tv "celebrities" but Norm is on the list I do.

[James Ayars]

"The recipe for perpetual ignorance is to be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge"

This is going up on the wall in my classroom this coming week! Yes, I'm a teacher and I can actually do a great many things just like most of the teachers I work with.

NYW motivated me and several of my friends to go beyond doing carpentry to repair things and start doing wood working as a hobby. I'll never have Norm's tools or workshop and I doubt I will ever have his level of skill and thus could never consider him a hack.

[Stephen Edwards]

I'm really enjoying this thread. It's as if it has evolved into a philosophy discussion. Many good points have been raised. I love SMC!!!:)

[Steven DeMars]

Norm leaves you with that "I CAN DO THAT FEELING" . . . . and while his shop is well equipped, most of his projects seem to be possible with an average woodworking shop . . . .

Count me as a Norm Fan . . . .

Steve

[Norman Pyles]

Am I alone in thinking that Norm is a total hack?
Yes, and quit talkin bout me. :p

[Jason White]

So......

Did we hit that millionth post yet????????
:D



Anybody watching the old Norm reruns?

I saw the "Turkey Table" tonight. Man, that's a beautiful piece. A bit beyond my skill level, though.

[Clifford Mescher]

The recipe for perpetual ignorance is to be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge." Clifford.

That quote is going on my office wall. Is that yours Clifford?
Naw, it came from an old book I was reading years ago. After I read it, I stopped and read it again. Then I sat there and did some thinking. I wrote it down on a piece of paper and only quote it on special occasions. Thank you for asking. Clifford.

[Stephen Edwards]

I can say that I have learned quite a bit about woodworking from watching Norm Abram, even if it is true that he is in the business of having a TV show. I have not learned a single thing about woodworking from Karl Brogger, cabinet maker.

Well said. That puts things in perspective. Another thing that I've learned in life, and in woodworking, is that there are often more than one way to a thing correctly.

Take this forum for example. I've learned several different "new" techniques for doing a particular task. In many cases all of them are good and they are all correct. Just a matter of preference as to how one decides to do a thing.

If I watch a Norm show and it makes me THINK, mission accomplished; even if I decide not to do it Norm's way.

[chris yount]

I dont watch NYW regularly anymore.I do enjoy watching Norm work, especially the older shows, because I relate to his techniques. My background is from home construction / finish carpentry.A lot of what he does is directly related to this type of work.His work seems to me to be a hybrid of furniture building and finish carpentry and I think this is why some purist dont care for his show.
I like Marks' show but I dont relate to his work as much as Norm's.His styles or designs don't really suit my taste.

[Neal Clayton]

I agree that once in a great while I see something on either New Yankee Workshop, or This Old House that really is a good idea. The latest being I saw a really cool way to make casing and jambs. A dado is run though the casing and the jamb recesses into the casing a bit. That was a phenomenal idea for taking care of small differences in the width of jamb requirements to get the casing to lay flat. Beats the snot out of scribing! But these really great ideas are so few and far between that I can't remember the last thing that I picked up that I thought was actually usefull.

hmm, that is a good idea. beats cutting the casing so thin with a back relief that you can flex it if you have to (and about a third of the time, split it :(), that was my previous method.

may try that myself.

and the reason i didn't see it is because about half to 2/3 of the time, this old house infuriates me.

here's a perfect example...

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,425331,00.html

you would expect an article and video entitled "window glazing" would have information in it regarding reglazing your existing windows (putties, points, repair epoxies and such). that is, you would expect such an article to be about those things if written by anyone but TOH. in which case it would be a huge ad for mass produced windows, complete with every square inch of the energy value line of BS that they put out in their direct advertising (as opposed to the indirect advertising which apparently is rewording one of their pamphlets and having someone at TOH put their name on it).

[David Keller NC]

"A lot of what he does is directly related to this type of work.His work seems to me to be a hybrid of furniture building and finish carpentry and I think this is why some purist dont care for his show."

You've hit it exactly. Norm is, primarily, a carpenter. The fact that he can build furniture is impressive, but it most definitely has the flavor of "external appearances are the thing that matters". On that count, of course, he's entirely correct. The average joe could care less that a drawer is put together with rabbets and pocket screws, but he'll definitely care if the exterior finish is ugly, full of dust specks, or not durable. This is, perhaps, one reason Norm's show is so successful, and why his profile in Fine Woodworking drew such a storm of protest.

While I don't agree with his methods or materials, I'd love a chance to meet him in person. There are very, very, very few of us that will ever make a decent living from doing what we love. A man has to be respected for that.

[Peter Elliott]

Ok, so I won't bow out just yet.

Busting my hump in a cabinet shop building some hideously expensive cabinets and furniture. Running an operating a cabinet shop since 2004, and always having customers that are awed. Working for places that build house's that start around $500 sq/ft and win architectual awards.

I'm plenty qualified, are you qualified to judge quality of work? I'm not talking design, there is some really ugly stuff that is well made, and also some really poorly built products that look pretty good.

Now I'm done:D


Karl, it's your opinion that you have a right too. As with all of us. In my humble opinion, I still don't think your qualified to judge Norms work. I can double your years and have been exposed to a wide array of homes, projects, etc money this and that. I just don't feel I could make remarks about Norms level of work. There is a difference between saying, "hey, that's shotty work" and saying " I would have done that this way".

Now if Thom Moser stepped in the room, well that's a man who could hold weight in this topic.

It's been an enjoyable debate!
Now let's make some sawdust!

-Peter

[Clifford Mescher]

Karl, it's your opinion that you have a right too. As with all of us. In my humble opinion, I still don't think your qualified to judge Norms work. I can double your years and have been exposed to a wide array of homes, projects, etc money this and that. I just don't feel I could make remarks about Norms level of work. There is a difference between saying, "hey, that's shotty work" and saying " I would have done that this way".

Now if Thom Moser stepped in the room, well that's a man who could hold weight in this topic.

It's been an enjoyable debate!
Now let's make some sawdust!

-Peter
Yes Peter, Tom Moser is one "hack" that I would give the time of day to.;)


Member Bio:
Maine's most famous furnituremaker, Thomas Moser, gave up a Bates College professorship 35 years ago to start building furniture in an old Grange Hall in New Gloucester. In his book, "Thos. Moser: Artistry in Wood," Tom outlines the history of Thos. Moser Cabinetmakers and reflects on craft, materials, design and creativity. Tom, who has been profiled in dozens of national publications including Forbes, Architectural Digest, Fine Woodworking, This Old House and Down East, is still designing and is currently working on a new dining chair and a sofa.

[Carl Babel]

Norm made woodworking (and flannel :D) cool. I used to watch his shows often. Probably still would, if I could find the time (I say as I wrap up a full hour on SMC - LOL).

[Brent Smith]

Norm is da man!!!! Are there better...yes, many. Are there less skilled......yes many more. The fact is that no one has done more for the hobby, or towards making the general population more knowledgable about what goes into making a piece of furniture than Norm has. Do it his way or don't, it doesn't change this one simple fact.

Gotta go......NYW is starting soon..............

[terry richards]

Looks like just about all sides of this question, save one, have been explored. To avoid saying more of what has already been said, or coming down on one side of the debate between, "He is a god." or, "He is a hack", let me make a new request.

I would dearly love to see some outtakes of his shows. In addition to the entertainment value for those of us who don't get the perfect fit every time, I think it would humanize his show for a lot of us - add a bit of realism - if we could see his pile of misfit pieces or cuts that somehow came up a quarter inch short. It's not that we should engage in schadenfreude or in delevitating the hero, because every one of us, undoubtedly including Norm, has at some time surely asked the "Why did I do a dumb thing like that?" question.

Even for the experts, not every joint comes out just right - a perfect miter is a joy to behold. Perhaps a quarter minute at the end of a show now and then would be fun.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Terry - good point. That would be interesting. I heard an interview with Russel Morash awhile ago where he basically said "Norm doesn't make any mistakes". I honestly wonder if they'd even get a minute's worth of mistake material out of a project - I think he really does "Measure twice, cut once".

Just for clarification, someone mentioned that Norm is a MechEng - he actually started that, but decided not to finish. He doesn't have a college degree that I'm aware of (not that it's limited him...)

[Anthony Whitesell]

Anybody watching the old Norm reruns?

I saw the "Turkey Table" tonight. Man, that's a beautiful piece. A bit beyond my skill level, though.

That project was to terribly difficult other than the spindle legs. It a might tough to do those without a lathe.

I do have two questions for him:

How's that foam brush working with the polyurethane?

Why didn't you just say that the "new glue" was Gorilla Glue? The shape of the bottle was a slight give away.

[Ron Kellison]

Personally, I thought the turkey table was butt ugly. I didn't like the choice of wood and the shape means that it can't be set flush to a wall.

I remember when Norm used Gorilla glue in several episodes but I haven't seen it on the show during the past few years. Maybe he got tired of scraping off the residue from projects or wearing latex gloves!

Ron

[David Cramer]

In reply to Terry Richards post and a few others (nothing personal fella's, just makin' a point).

Norm does make mistakes and admits to them. But I gaurantee you that a lot of respected and talented woodworkers have and they too are far from being hacks.

Norm was in are local PBS studio years ago (mid to late 90's) and was talking with the host in between the 3 or 4 shows of the NYWS that they were showing.

The host asked Norm how many times he miscuts or mismeasures for a project and if there would ever be a blooper tape coming out. Norm said no that he didn't believe there would ever be a blooper tape coming out but that yes indeed he did make mistakes. He then sited a recent example (at the time) of a drawer he made to small for a desk or cabinet. As Dino, the camera man was taping, Norm took the drawer that he had just made and went to slide it into the opening and it was way to small (the drawer). Norm said he moved it back and forth and Dino said, "that's why they call it a shaker!".

Norm also said he limits a lot of mistakes by doing a prototype, as most viewers already know. He makes 2 of everything. The first one allows him to work out the kinks and be sure that things will come out as planned without any hidden snafus or hiccups along the way. If there are, he can adjust for the final project.


Highboy - Item #0509

http://www.newyankee.com/sketches/0509s.gif


I ask you, can anyone who makes this be a hack? Not to mention he started out in rough carpentry, not fine furniture, which is exactly what that photo is, fine furniture. Calling Norm a hack is one of the biggest oxymorons that I've heard in a long, long time.

If Norm is a hack, then there is a level far, far, far below his level. Look closely, very closely, and you will see me:).

David

[Anthony Whitesell]

I liked the tri-lobe shape and the three legged base but the center triangle shelf seemed out of place to me. Just my opinion.

[Jason White]

Wow, it only took 6 pages to get back on topic!!
:rolleyes:

Personally, I thought the turkey table was butt ugly. I didn't like the choice of wood and the shape means that it can't be set flush to a wall.

I remember when Norm used Gorilla glue in several episodes but I haven't seen it on the show during the past few years. Maybe he got tired of scraping off the residue from projects or wearing latex gloves!

Ron

[David Cramer]

There was a topic?:rolleyes:

[Michael Gibbons]

"Norm gets projects built in 30 minutes...sometimes it takes him 60 minutes. The guy is a GOD!!"

Ha! I suspect your post was tongue in cheek - it doesn't take too many episodes to realize that a bunch of things are left out. Nevertheless, his work ethic is impressive. As I understand it, he spends a week or two building a prototype and developing plans, then executes the plans and builds the second piece in 2-3 days. That's fast.

As to Norm being a hack, I've heard that expressed before, and not on 'net forums - by both highly accomplished individuals and those starting out in the local WW clubs. Being a hack, in one sense, doesn't mean that one's not successful, or even deserving of respect.

I think he gets this label from time to time because he comes from a finish carpentry background (his words, not mine), and it shows in his methods and the choices he makes about how pieces are constructed. In finish carpentry, there's a strong financial reason to "just get it done", and so long as something not visible is not done in a manner that will cause serious issues as the project ages, the exterior appearance is all that matters.

My issue with the NYW, and I know this view is shared, is that Norm often labels pieces "reproductions", and that's just not correct. One does not use a pin nailer to attach moldings to an 18th century antique, nor use plywood, bendable plywood, bent laminations, resorcinol glue, or polyurethane and correctly label a piece from the 18th century a reproduction. They are correctly labeled modern representations. While that may seem like parsing minutiae, this matters, both to customers that might purchase such a piece from a cabinetmaker brought up on NYW, and to those wishing to reproduce designs from the 18th and 19th centuries.

Particularly for newbies that don't have access to original pieces, they may well be confused about whether such things as bent laminations were appropriate to the period from methods shown on the show, though hopefully not the use of pneumatic pin nailers and polyurethane top coats.

The NYW workshop would be much improved were Norm to explain to his audience that the pieces constructed on the show are very much modern furniture, and that there's a continuum between 18th century forms made with particle board and plastic veneers in a big factory to those made by individuals such as Mack Headley in the Colonial Williamsburg cabinetshop, and they don't have equivalent value, either economically (what they'd sell for), or as an art object, or even as a piece of durable, usable furniture. Wowwy!! you guys are rough! I have all 7 of Norms books and to me, he's just another woodworker who learns something new everytime he goes into the shop. I've never seen his projects up close to see the fine details but I imagine that after 20+ years he has refined the projects he builds to be great quality using modern methods, tools and glue. I calculated that he has built in the neighborhood of 300+ items. I came to thet figure by finding out episodes he has filmed, add the fact that he usually makes three peices of each then take away a few for the episodes that he only made one of-like the garden shed that sits next to his shop, the pergola, childrens playhouse and the like. After all those, how could they not be well made? Norm states clearly in his books that he is a carpenter by trade who got a chance to do something else. Norm can build a highboy and build a garage, what's wrong with that. Earlier someone mentioned Sam Maloof. Sam makes beautiful chairs. BTW, does he build anything but rockers? Houses, kitchen cabinets, fireplace mantels? If anyone goes into the Borg on saturday, go up to someone and ask them if they've heard of Sam Maloof then ask them if they've heard of Norm Abram. I'd wager the average consumer won't know Sam unless they are furniture collectors or admirers, alot- not everybody has heard of Norm. I'm sure everyone here has heard of the Shakers. We like the clean line and proportions of their peices. If the Shakers had access to a Sawstop, radial arm saw or router they would have bought them because they wanted to use the newest technology. Would that have changed our feelings towards the furniture they built? QUESTION: and be honest: If Norm sent you a table or chair that he made, wouldn't you flaunt that peice like an all A report card? I would. I taped the very first episode. The oak medicine cabinet. The shop was very sparse. And Norm was very nervous and shaky. Look what 20 years does for you.

[Rod Sheridan]

I guess what I would be interested in is the following two questions;

1) What would you like Norm to stop doing?

2) What would you like Norm to continue doing?

So in the spirit of one item per question;

- I'd like Norm to stop using a tablesaw without a guard and splitter. I know that the blade cuts wood, it cuts whether I can see it or not, so get with the program and put some safety in your shop Norm.


- I'd like Norm to continue making built in and modern cabinets, as opposed to modern reproductions of old cabinets. It's where Norm's strengths are.


Regards, Rod.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I can agree with that, Rod. I think a 'still' shot of the setup without the on so we can see the setup more clearly would be sufficient, then make the cut with the guard in place.

[David Keller NC]

"I ask you, can anyone who makes this be a hack?"

The short answer is "absolutely". Whether or not he is, or is not, a "hack" has zero to do with the final appearance of a piece, nor its complexity.

Reagrding Rod's questions:

1) I'd like Norm to stop using plywood, aminate materials, and plastic finishes in reproductions - it does matter how the original piece was constructed.

2) I'd like him to continue to build post-industrial revolution furniture, benches, cabinets, etc... They're appropriate to his methods, they're useful, and the shows are interesting.

[Clifford Mescher]

I may have a unique perspective on Norm in that I work for a PBS affiliate and I know what his shows have done for PBS over the years. To put it simply his contributions are pretty much immeasurable.

As far as his skill as a woodworker goes, he can produce things that I have never even come close to and that's good enough for me. I think to a certain degree people may have misunderstood the purpose of the show. The point of NYW isn't to produce the perfect piece of furniture, lovingly recreated using the techniques of yesteryear. The point is to demonstrate how someone, with the right tools, can produce something that looks like a piece you would actually want to own. It's point is to make woodworking accessible to a newcomer and remove some of the mystery and fear of tools. The producers want Joe Woodworker to watch it and say "Hey I could do that!" Trust me, with his credentials (Mechanical engineering degree anyone?) he could produce pieces that would be truly masterpieces, but they couldn't put those on the show because it would run counter to the show's purpose.

As far as the show's popularity and Norm's reputation, I have to say that I have a lot of respect for Norm. It would not take much for brainpower for one of the big networks to come up with the idea of "Hey let's offer that guy at PBS working for peanuts a lot of money to come do the same thing for us, and then we'll own the rights to it!" I'm sure that's happened and yet Norm has stuck with WGBH for 30 years or so. I don't respect many people who make their living as tv "celebrities" but Norm is on the list I do.
I agree. Imagine the real number of people that would actually watch a show about recreating a piece of furniture with yesterday's techniques and materials. Such a show would not get the audience. First you have to suck-in the "numbers" and then you have to appeal to them to "keep the numbers". Clifford.

[Stephen Edwards]

My guess is that 100 years from now Norm's pieces, by virtue of that fact that he made them, will command much higher prices than pieces that are currently being made by reproduction purists whose names and work will never have the recognition of Norm, even though the purists' pieces may very well be better built furniture.

Let's face it, most people don't care if a piece has a modern finish or an "authentic" finish. The only thing that they care about it is........how does it look?

I'm not slamming the purists here, either. In fact, I admire their attention to detail, etc. But the fact remains that the value of a thing, any thing, is determined by the price that someone is willing to pay for it now. When "now" is several years in the future, Norm's pieces will likely be far more valuable than pieces that are more accurate reproductions of bygone eras, simply because his name will be remembered.

[Chuck Tringo]

I must disagree....Roy Underhill has been doing the woodwrights shop for going on about 30 years now....


I agree. Imagine the real number of people that would actually watch a show about recreating a piece of furniture with yesterday's techniques and materials. Such a show would not get the audience. First you have to suck-in the "numbers" and then you have to appeal to them to "keep the numbers". Clifford.

[Porter Bassett]

...get with the program and put some safety in your shop Norm.But... he always wears these *pause* safety glasses! ;)

Oh, and about his mechanical engineering background -- as someone with two mech eng. degrees, let me say that that education doesn't necessarily have much relevance at all to woodworking, just like being well-known and successful is no guarantee of ability.

[Travis Rassat]

That's really well said, Brodie. While both shows have their less-than-desirable aspects, I also appreciate both shows for their different approaches - I like to think Norm's work is on the more practical end of the spectrum, while David's is on the art end of the spectrum. That's what I love about woodworking - it represents a spectrum of art, engineering, and everything in between. Where I lie in that spectrum is something I hope to realize when I am really old.

[Clifford Mescher]

I must disagree....Roy Underhill has been doing the woodwrights shop for going on about 30 years now....
Your right. I misspoke.I have only watched him a few times. He seems to have fun with old techniques. Does he do high end reproductions? Clifford

[Greg Just]

Is there going to be a new 2009 series other than the "look-back" shows? I enjoyed last years show about building the kitchen cabinets.

[David Keller NC]

"My guess is that 100 years from now Norm's pieces, by virtue of that fact that he made them, will command much higher prices than pieces that are currently being made by reproduction purists whose names and work will never have the recognition of Norm, even though the purists' pieces may very well be better built furniture."

I suspect you're right about Norm, but only because of his fame. Allan Breed's recreations bring very high prices already, and he's still making them. I suspect his pieces will bring much higher prices on the secondary market than someone using methods similar to Norm's to make representations, but without his fame.

And, of course, that doesn't count the dozens of pieces sold each year that are modern but are not distinguishable from the originals because they were made in the same way. Those are fakes, of course (at least if intentionally sold to decieve), but the point about indistinguishability remains, and why there's a difference between a reproduction and a representation.

[David Cramer]

Just getting back to reading this post and still very surprised.

I posed the question, "I ask you, can anybody who makes this be a hack?"

One poster said absolutely.

Wow! I am perplexed at the type of responses I've read on this thread.

So if your neighbor made that project and he didn't have a tv show, you'd call him a hack while looking it over? I don't think so.

It was said that the final appearance of the project nor its complexity has nothing to do with him being a hack or not. What does that mean:confused:?

If someone on this board posted a photo of that highboy and they had actually built it, would you call that person a hack? Again, I don't think so.

A lot of posters are overthinking this because he is a guy with a tv show. Disagreeing with a post is one thing, but if you can't back it up with any real substance and an objective opinion, then why post?

David

p.s. No relation to Norm and I don't own stock:) in the NYWS.

[Brian Effinger]

Is there going to be a new 2009 series other than the "look-back" shows? I enjoyed last years show about building the kitchen cabinets.
Nope, no new projects - just the old shows with the new introductions. From what I hear, Norm is taking the year off.

[Clifford Mescher]

"My guess is that 100 years from now Norm's pieces, by virtue of that fact that he made them, will command much higher prices than pieces that are currently being made by reproduction purists whose names and work will never have the recognition of Norm, even though the purists' pieces may very well be better built furniture."

I suspect you're right about Norm, but only because of his fame. Allan Breed's recreations bring very high prices already, and he's still making them. I suspect his pieces will bring much higher prices on the secondary market than someone using methods similar to Norm's to make representations, but without his fame.

And, of course, that doesn't count the dozens of pieces sold each year that are modern but are not distinguishable from the originals because they were made in the same way. Those are fakes, of course (at least if intentionally sold to decieve), but the point about indistinguishability remains, and why there's a difference between a reproduction and a representation.
Who is Allan Breed? Clifford.

[Jerome Hanby]

Who is Allan Breed? Clifford.

Go to google, type in the name and click I'm feeling lucky:D

[Ken Milhinch]

After over 5,000 views and over 100 replies, it seems only one person her would label Norm "a hack". I think it's settled then.
I hope Norm continues doing what he is doing for many years to come, and I am only sorry I am on the other side of the world, as I would be delighted to meet him.

[David Keller NC]

"It was said that the final appearance of the project nor its complexity has nothing to do with him being a hack or not. What does that mean:confused:?

If someone on this board posted a photo of that highboy and they had actually built it, would you call that person a hack? Again, I don't think so."

David - I can support those opinions with some examples. And no, I'm too polite to call someone a "hack" to his/her face, nor would I critique someone else's project (good or bad), unless they specifically asked me to.

A few examples - from Norm's own show, he built a "Dominy Clock" - the title of the show did have that phrase in it. What he built was a fairly nice clock case, albeit with modern materials and methods. I certainly question the appropriateness of those modern materials and methods, but what really, really, REALLY made it highly inappropriate to declare the final result a "Dominy Clock Reproduction" was the substitution of a elcheapo, plasticky quartz movement for the clock itself. There are many in the WW world that make reproduction clocks with correct, mechanical movements and hand-painted dials, and it's completely valid to call that clock a "hack job".

Further, there are many examples of pieces in furniture showrooms were the appearance standards and complexity is quite high. However, one finds that the final appearance is a "cherry finish" plastic veneer with "antiquing" over "select wood solids" and (though not advertised) - particleboard. There are tons of drawers, cabinets, drawer pulls, etc... on the piece, and it's highly complex. But when carefully examined, one finds that the drawers are plywood at best and mdf at worst, and they're pocket-screwed together. Such a piece is most definitely a hack job, despite its final appearance and complexity. I do not think Norm would stoop to such a low level, but the point remains that a "hack" label can be applied to someone's piece regardless of its complexity or final appearance.

But again, I do respect Norm highly for introducing a ton of people to woodworking, and I don't even buy the common objection that he has beaucoups of power tools with multi-thousand dollar price tags. My quibble is solely with the reproductions that he creates on a regular basis, and I'd be fine if he would simply explain that he's not making a reproduction, he's making a modern representation. Such a disclaimer would show the respect necessary to the many small business people that do make reproductions instead of representations, Phil Lowe, Jeffrey Greene, Allan Breed, and others among them.

[Chris Padilla]

Reproduction, representions...it is just semantics, David....

Reproduction is a copy of something of an earlier style...like furniture. I suppose one could delve into what exactly "copy" means but it is open to interpretation.

Representation is a visual depiction of something...like furniture. Again, open to interpretation.

It isn't like Norm is trying to hide the fact that he isn't making exact in every facet copies of earlier works. In fact, he often tries to improve them in his mind. He'll inlay some plywood or other hardwood along short grain areas like chair arms, for example.

[Clifford Mescher]

Exactly. He usually says that this is OUR Version of the piece. He never misrepresents what he is making. Clifford.

[David Keller NC]

"Reproduction, representions...it is just semantics, David...."

Nope. I disagree, and so do a lot of others. Interior construction and the methods used to make something matter - a lot.

There's an excellent, if somewhat thick, discussion of this subject in David Pye's book "The Nature and Art of Workmanship". In it, he goes into a much more eloquent explanation than I ever could about why the surface characteristics and how something's constructed are integral to whether an object represents good workmanship or poor workmanship. It's a good read - the guy was a genius.

And no, guys, I'm sensitive to this and listen fairly closely - Norm sometimes does designate something as "our version of ...", but there are many instances where he most definitely calls a piece a "reproduction of ...", and I consider that deceptive and a slap (if unintentional) at those that do make reproductions.

It's not appropriate to send the message to someone, particularly a newbie, of "Why go to the trouble of learning to handplane when you can just sand the stuffing out of ..." or "Plywood's a perfectly appropriate material to use as structural components in a Queen Anne table".

OK, enough. When threads go on this long, it's pretty clear that everyone's talking past one another, so I'll let it go. One thing to be quite proud of on this forum is that this was a largely very civil discussion. That was definitely not the case when a similar thread was started a few years back on Knots.

[Chris Padilla]

"Reproduction, representions...it is just semantics, David...."

Nope. I disagree, and so do a lot of others. Interior construction and the methods used to make something matter - a lot.

Maybe "a lot of others" do disagree but I don't see them on this thead....

[Peter Scoma]

How about Roy Underhill from the woodright's shop. He seems a bit unstable to me. :D

PS

[Jon Adams]

I love Norm, he gives me lots of ideas and makes me want all the new tools. My wife hates Norm because he gives me lots of ideas and makes me want all the new tools.:rolleyes:

[Peter Scoma]

WW skills aside, I think Norm is a very skilled host and articulates what he is doing as he is doing it, very well. I remember reading that he had maybe 1 or 2 shows in his lifetime that required more than one take.

I'm impressed by some of his pieces, particularly the highboy, however, the episode was a complete gloss over of its actual construction (and he didn't make the legs).

Now if he got into some handrubbed finishes instead of polyurethaning everything.........

PS

[Clifford Mescher]

OK, enough. When threads go on this long, it's pretty clear that everyone's talking past one another, so I'll let it go.


I don't see any dialogue. Clifford.

[Mark Patoka]

I love Norm, he gives me lots of ideas and makes me want all the new tools. My wife hates Norm because he gives me lots of ideas and makes me want all the new tools.:rolleyes:

Actually, more than once my wife has said "I saw Norm using that tool. You don't have one, maybe you need one". Nothing more needed to be said (as I race out the door....):D

[Rod Sheridan]

Actually, more than once my wife has said "I saw Norm using that tool. You don't have one, maybe you need one". Nothing more needed to be said (as I race out the door....):D

Diann always is supportive of me buying tools, in the last instance she wanted me to replace my 8" jointer with a Hammer A3-31 because she had a piece of wood that was 10" across and it wouldn't fit on my 8" jointer.

You have to love spouses like that, however she does a dark side.

Several years ago as we were watching Norm use a brad nailer to attach trim to furniture through the face of the trim, Diann looked over at me and said "If I ever find one of those damn nailers in your shop, I'll use it to attach certain parts of your anatomy to the bench".

Once warned is enough for me, I neither asked for clarification on which parts of my anatomy, nor have I purchased a nailer.

Regards, Rod.

[Brian Effinger]

Several years ago as we were watching Norm use a brad nailer to attach trim to furniture through the face of the trim, Diann looked over at me and said "If I ever find one of those damn nailers in your shop, I'll use it to attach certain parts of your anatomy to the bench".

Once warned is enough for me, I neither asked for clarification on which parts of my anatomy, nor have I purchased a nailer.

Regards, Rod.

Bwaaaahahahahahahahahaha! :D
That's quite a wife you have there! :p :D